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From: Jamie C. <jca...@we...> - 2005-09-16 04:54:29
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Usermin isn't really the best mail reader to use with cyrus, although that hasn't stopped people from trying :-) It really works best with more traditional mail stores, and has the advantage that it runs with the correct permissions to access all mail files directly.
It may be better to instead use a web-based mail reader more suited to LDAP, such as squirrelmail..
- Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig White <cra...@az...>
Subj: [webmin-l] while we're at it (cyrus imapd)
Date: Fri 16 Sep 2005 2:11 pm
Size: 1K
To: web...@li...
I cannot conceive of a method with which to configure 'Read User Mail'
module to use cyrus mail folder storage
/var/spool/imap/c
/user/craig
/subfolder
/subfolder
/user/charles
/subfolder
/var/spool/imap/r
/user/root
files are all owned by cyrus:mail (not that it should make a difference)
and IMAP subscriptions/seen/ & cyrus mailboxes db are in another tree
thought this wouldn't matter since you don't do IMAP at all with the
webmail implementation and I'm thinking that it could be havoc to give a
user access around cyrus and the mailboxes db would be none the wiser.
So I spent only a few minutes trying to figure out how to configure the
module, decided that it didn't lend itself to the mbox/maildir and user
home directories slant the module relies upon.
It's not important to me - just wondering if I am missing the blindingly
obvious.
Craig
--
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From: Jamie C. <jca...@we...> - 2005-09-16 07:30:15
|
Usermin isn't really the best mail reader to use with cyrus, although that hasn't stopped people from trying :-) It really works best with more traditional mail stores, and has the advantage that it runs with the correct permissions to access all mail files directly.
It may be better to instead use a web-based mail reader more suited to LDAP, such as squirrelmail..
- Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig White <cra...@az...>
Subj: [webmin-l] while we're at it (cyrus imapd)
Date: Fri 16 Sep 2005 2:11 pm
Size: 1K
To: web...@li...
I cannot conceive of a method with which to configure 'Read User Mail'
module to use cyrus mail folder storage
/var/spool/imap/c
/user/craig
/subfolder
/subfolder
/user/charles
/subfolder
/var/spool/imap/r
/user/root
files are all owned by cyrus:mail (not that it should make a difference)
and IMAP subscriptions/seen/ & cyrus mailboxes db are in another tree
thought this wouldn't matter since you don't do IMAP at all with the
webmail implementation and I'm thinking that it could be havoc to give a
user access around cyrus and the mailboxes db would be none the wiser.
So I spent only a few minutes trying to figure out how to configure the
module, decided that it didn't lend itself to the mbox/maildir and user
home directories slant the module relies upon.
It's not important to me - just wondering if I am missing the blindingly
obvious.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
-------------------------------------------------------
SF.Net email is sponsored by:
Tame your development challenges with Apache's Geronimo App Server. Download
it for free - -and be entered to win a 42" plasma tv or your very own
Sony(tm)PSP. Click here to play: http://sourceforge.net/geronimo.php
-
Forwarded by the Webmin mailing list at web...@li...
To remove yourself from this list, go to
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From: Adam K. <ake...@ni...> - 2005-09-19 17:24:26
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 What about dovecot as an IMAP daemon? Does it play well with Usermin? Jamie Cameron proclaimed the following on 09/16/2005 02:50 PM: > Usermin isn't really the best mail reader to use with cyrus, although that hasn't stopped people from trying :-) It really works best with more traditional mail stores, and has the advantage that it runs with the correct permissions to access all mail files directly. > > It may be better to instead use a web-based mail reader more suited to LDAP, such as squirrelmail.. > > - Jamie > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Craig White <cra...@az...> > Subj: [webmin-l] while we're at it (cyrus imapd) > Date: Fri 16 Sep 2005 2:11 pm > Size: 1K > To: web...@li... > > I cannot conceive of a method with which to configure 'Read User Mail' > module to use cyrus mail folder storage > > /var/spool/imap/c > /user/craig > /subfolder > /subfolder > /user/charles > /subfolder > /var/spool/imap/r > /user/root > > files are all owned by cyrus:mail (not that it should make a difference) > > and IMAP subscriptions/seen/ & cyrus mailboxes db are in another tree > thought this wouldn't matter since you don't do IMAP at all with the > webmail implementation and I'm thinking that it could be havoc to give a > user access around cyrus and the mailboxes db would be none the wiser. > > So I spent only a few minutes trying to figure out how to configure the > module, decided that it didn't lend itself to the mbox/maildir and user > home directories slant the module relies upon. > > It's not important to me - just wondering if I am missing the blindingly > obvious. > > Craig > > - -- Northern Indiana ESC Adam Kennedy - ake...@ni... Linux Specialist / Network Administrator Phone: (574) 254-5210 Toll Free: 866-254-5322 Fax: (574) 254-0148 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDLvS3V72KWYU3lA0RAofIAJ0bEcrJqXOtgnZKf1w8CaE9Cf9eXwCgiKDe 5Z3Xk7ivXt/Uc2eEyxre86o= =mUXC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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From: Joe C. <jo...@sw...> - 2005-09-19 18:11:23
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Yes. Dovecot is not a "drink the Kool-aid" kind of server, the way Cyrus is. You don't have to use an alternate mail spool format, no outside databases are used, and nothing complicated goes on in a Dovecot environment. I use Dovecot with Maildir spools on all of my servers, and Usermin works very well. Adam Kennedy wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > What about dovecot as an IMAP daemon? Does it play well with Usermin? > > Jamie Cameron proclaimed the following on 09/16/2005 02:50 PM: > >>Usermin isn't really the best mail reader to use with cyrus, although that hasn't stopped people from trying :-) It really works best with more traditional mail stores, and has the advantage that it runs with the correct permissions to access all mail files directly. >> >>It may be better to instead use a web-based mail reader more suited to LDAP, such as squirrelmail.. >> >> - Jamie >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: Craig White <cra...@az...> >>Subj: [webmin-l] while we're at it (cyrus imapd) >>Date: Fri 16 Sep 2005 2:11 pm >>Size: 1K >>To: web...@li... >> >>I cannot conceive of a method with which to configure 'Read User Mail' >>module to use cyrus mail folder storage >> >>/var/spool/imap/c >> /user/craig >> /subfolder >> /subfolder >> /user/charles >> /subfolder >>/var/spool/imap/r >> /user/root >> >>files are all owned by cyrus:mail (not that it should make a difference) >> >>and IMAP subscriptions/seen/ & cyrus mailboxes db are in another tree >>thought this wouldn't matter since you don't do IMAP at all with the >>webmail implementation and I'm thinking that it could be havoc to give a >>user access around cyrus and the mailboxes db would be none the wiser. >> >>So I spent only a few minutes trying to figure out how to configure the >>module, decided that it didn't lend itself to the mbox/maildir and user >>home directories slant the module relies upon. >> >>It's not important to me - just wondering if I am missing the blindingly >>obvious. >> >>Craig >> >> > > > - -- > Northern Indiana ESC > Adam Kennedy - ake...@ni... > Linux Specialist / Network Administrator > Phone: (574) 254-5210 > Toll Free: 866-254-5322 > Fax: (574) 254-0148 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFDLvS3V72KWYU3lA0RAofIAJ0bEcrJqXOtgnZKf1w8CaE9Cf9eXwCgiKDe > 5Z3Xk7ivXt/Uc2eEyxre86o= > =mUXC > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: > Tame your development challenges with Apache's Geronimo App Server. Download > it for free - -and be entered to win a 42" plasma tv or your very own > Sony(tm)PSP. Click here to play: http://sourceforge.net/geronimo.php > - > Forwarded by the Webmin mailing list at web...@li... > To remove yourself from this list, go to > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webadmin-list |
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From: Craig W. <cra...@az...> - 2005-09-19 19:59:22
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On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 13:14 -0500, Joe Cooper wrote: > Yes. Dovecot is not a "drink the Kool-aid" kind of server, the way > Cyrus is. ---- that's a rather extreme metaphor Mr. Jones ;-) the fact is that mailboxes, seen messages, duplicate message supression etc. are indeed indexed using db's which make it so darn fast. I have no test data comparing dovecot performance to cyrus so I let your 5% performance claim go since I have no way of proving or disproving and I suspect that your 5% claim was just simply a uswag. Likewise using cyrus-imapd, sieve scripts are all previously bytecoded (compiled) for faster performance rather than shell execution of procmail. Perhaps Joe wants to toss another 5% figure at that too. While you probably can use UserMin to access maildir stores, you aren't going to benefit from subscription lists, seen state or imap flags without an IMAP login and if you had an IMAP login, then cyrus-imapd would work as well...but an IMAP login isn't part of the feature set of UserMin. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. |
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From: Joe C. <jo...@sw...> - 2005-09-19 23:55:05
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Craig White wrote: > On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 13:14 -0500, Joe Cooper wrote: > >>Yes. Dovecot is not a "drink the Kool-aid" kind of server, the way >>Cyrus is. > > ---- > that's a rather extreme metaphor Mr. Jones ;-) I'm pretty sure I got the metaphor from you, Craig. Really, I think read it in one of your posts a few days ago and immediately thought, "Perfect metaphor!" ;-) > the fact is that mailboxes, seen messages, duplicate message supression > etc. are indeed indexed using db's which make it so darn fast. I have no > test data comparing dovecot performance to cyrus so I let your 5% > performance claim go since I have no way of proving or disproving and I > suspect that your 5% claim was just simply a uswag. Hold up...I said the performance difference for the whole system, including SpamAssassin and ClamAV, would only be about 5% faster with Cyrus, if any. I didn't say that Cyrus by itself was only 5% faster than Dovecot by itself for any particular task (though it might not even be as fast...I don't know...I've never seen benchmarks of Dovecot vs. Cyrus, though I've seen both compared to all of the "slow" POP and IMAP servers). What I said was that Cyrus can't make SpamAssassin or ClamAV take less resources, and in any mail server running those services, they are where almost /all/ resources go. I'm sure that Cyrus is extremely fast and wonderful in every possible way and I have no inclination to criticize it (though I do readily admit why I wouldn't choose it). I'm just saying that no amount of microtuning of the delivery agent or the retrieval server is going to make the real resource hogs disappear. Dovecot is blazing fast, and I'm sure Cyrus is too (possibly more blazing fast even), but on my mail servers, when I look at CPU/memory usage Dovecot isn't even a blip on the radar, while anti-spam and AV are at the top of the list. Nobody is criticizing your religious beliefs, Craig. Certainly not me. I respect all faiths, from Emacs to Vim and everything in between. ;-) > Likewise using cyrus-imapd, sieve scripts are all previously bytecoded > (compiled) for faster performance rather than shell execution of > procmail. Perhaps Joe wants to toss another 5% figure at that too. Nope. I just want to toss in another reminder that it just doesn't matter. Procmail is 1% of my CPU usage on my most heavily loaded mail server and Dovecot is about the same. SpamAssassin is 30% and ClamAV is probably 10%. When I look at those numbers I couldn't care less whether Procmail is being inefficient because a shell is spawned for every message. Even if Cyrus and Sieve are 5 times faster, I'll still only save .8% CPU time over Procmail. I'm just not gonna sweat over some pocket change. ;-) I'll concede that lack of caching and good indexing in some POP/IMAP servers can lead to sluggish client-side response...but Dovecot is not one of those servers. uw doesn't take much CPU or memory, but is very slow on large mailboxes. Dovecot is very fast and still doesn't take much CPU or memory. And you get to keep standard Maildir or mbox spools, so all mail tools will continue to work as they always have. I consider that a win. The lack of which is why Cyrus is a "drink the Kool-aid" kind of product. You've gotta migrate your whole tool-chain in order to use Cyrus. > While you probably can use UserMin to access maildir stores, you aren't > going to benefit from subscription lists, seen state or imap flags > without an IMAP login and if you had an IMAP login, then cyrus-imapd > would work as well...but an IMAP login isn't part of the feature set of > UserMin. But it is. I mentioned that when this came up a few days ago. Usermin supports the following folder types: - System folders like Inbox, Drafts and Sent Mail that always exist. - Folders in in the mail directory that can be created or deleted by Usermin. - Other files or directories that can be managed as folders by Usermin. - POP3 accounts on other servers that can be treated as folders. - IMAP accounts on other servers. - Composite folders, which combine two or more other folders into a single list. - Virtual folders, which contain a selection of mail from others. Note that one of those is IMAP, and thought it doesn't state it explicitly, local Maildir folders are also supported. It doesn't handle the .subscriptions file yet, as far as I know, but there's no reason why it couldn't. Seems like it would actually be pretty easy to implement... I'm sure Cyrus is a very fine package. I'm not just going to be using it, unless I find that Dovecot is inadequate (and I also find that Cyrus is adequate for the situation that proved Dovecots downfall). ;-) Regards, Joe |
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From: Craig W. <cra...@az...> - 2005-09-20 02:38:37
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On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 18:58 -0500, Joe Cooper wrote: > Craig White wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 13:14 -0500, Joe Cooper wrote: > > > >>Yes. Dovecot is not a "drink the Kool-aid" kind of server, the way > >>Cyrus is. > > > > ---- > > that's a rather extreme metaphor Mr. Jones ;-) > > I'm pretty sure I got the metaphor from you, Craig. Really, I think > read it in one of your posts a few days ago and immediately thought, > "Perfect metaphor!" ;-) ---- I don't think I would use such an extreme metaphor - it's rather a black one at that ---- > > > the fact is that mailboxes, seen messages, duplicate message supression > > etc. are indeed indexed using db's which make it so darn fast. I have no > > test data comparing dovecot performance to cyrus so I let your 5% > > performance claim go since I have no way of proving or disproving and I > > suspect that your 5% claim was just simply a uswag. > > Hold up...I said the performance difference for the whole system, > including SpamAssassin and ClamAV, would only be about 5% faster with > Cyrus, if any. I didn't say that Cyrus by itself was only 5% faster > than Dovecot by itself for any particular task (though it might not even > be as fast...I don't know...I've never seen benchmarks of Dovecot vs. > Cyrus, though I've seen both compared to all of the "slow" POP and IMAP > servers). What I said was that Cyrus can't make SpamAssassin or ClamAV > take less resources, and in any mail server running those services, they > are where almost /all/ resources go. I'm sure that Cyrus is extremely > fast and wonderful in every possible way and I have no inclination to > criticize it (though I do readily admit why I wouldn't choose it). I'm > just saying that no amount of microtuning of the delivery agent or the > retrieval server is going to make the real resource hogs disappear. > Dovecot is blazing fast, and I'm sure Cyrus is too (possibly more > blazing fast even), but on my mail servers, when I look at CPU/memory > usage Dovecot isn't even a blip on the radar, while anti-spam and AV are > at the top of the list. ---- I heavily use greylisting which lightens the load on spamassassin and clamav since a lot of the spam junk never gets through. You might want to check it out but of course, it relies upon one of those db's that you don't want to rely upon. If you can keep 80+ % of spam from ever having to be checked by spamassassin & clamav, I think you would find the numbers radically changed as listed above. ---- > > Nobody is criticizing your religious beliefs, Craig. Certainly not me. > I respect all faiths, from Emacs to Vim and everything in between. ;-) > > > Likewise using cyrus-imapd, sieve scripts are all previously bytecoded > > (compiled) for faster performance rather than shell execution of > > procmail. Perhaps Joe wants to toss another 5% figure at that too. > > Nope. I just want to toss in another reminder that it just doesn't > matter. Procmail is 1% of my CPU usage on my most heavily loaded mail > server and Dovecot is about the same. SpamAssassin is 30% and ClamAV is > probably 10%. When I look at those numbers I couldn't care less whether > Procmail is being inefficient because a shell is spawned for every > message. Even if Cyrus and Sieve are 5 times faster, I'll still only > save .8% CPU time over Procmail. I'm just not gonna sweat over some > pocket change. ;-) ---- again, the above cpu load can be adjusted by giving spamassassin and clamav less to chew on. It's not a religious belief by the way. I probably would use dovecot on light duty systems. ---- > > But it is. I mentioned that when this came up a few days ago. Usermin > supports the following folder types: > > - System folders like Inbox, Drafts and Sent Mail that always exist. > - Folders in in the mail directory that can be created or deleted by > Usermin. > - Other files or directories that can be managed as folders by Usermin. > - POP3 accounts on other servers that can be treated as folders. > - IMAP accounts on other servers. > - Composite folders, which combine two or more other folders into a > single list. > - Virtual folders, which contain a selection of mail from others. ---- if usermin supports IMAP logins, it should support IMAP subscriptions, seen state, etc. and remote or local would be immaterial since you could simply define the server to be localhost which means that cyrus-imapd is supported ---- > > Note that one of those is IMAP, and thought it doesn't state it > explicitly, local Maildir folders are also supported. It doesn't handle > the .subscriptions file yet, as far as I know, but there's no reason why > it couldn't. Seems like it would actually be pretty easy to implement... > > I'm sure Cyrus is a very fine package. I'm not just going to be using > it, unless I find that Dovecot is inadequate (and I also find that Cyrus > is adequate for the situation that proved Dovecots downfall). ;-) ---- I'm sorry that I have taken you down this path since it is not really material to me anyway since I am not a candidate for virtualmin anyway. I have noted that within Webmin, read user mail is not an option as there is no way within Webmin (as Jamie has confirmed) to get an IMAP login and directly accessing the mail store on cyrus-imapd would seem to everyone to be one of those Really Bad Ideas. I can live with that too since I have found a good deal of interest in other 'robust' web mail setups anyway. I don't even mean to extoll the virtues of cyrus-imapd or decry some missing features in dovecot as I have endured the mbox setup of uw-imap with some of my clients and I now know nothing is worse than that. My thinking has been all along - and I've said this before so I don't wish to belabor the point - but cyrus-imapd has a rather robust perl interface - none of which is used by Webmin. Webmin uses a rather antiquated perl module Net::LDAP (NetxAP) which evidently is supported only by SuSE. It's certainly possible to get the important part of cyrus-imapd by ignoring the cyrus-imapd stuff within LDAP Users and Groups, installing the autocreate patches in cyrus-imapd and some shell scripting using the hooks in LDAP Users and Groups 'scripts to run when modifying/creating' and the very usable 3rd party module Christian Schneider and Johannes Walch called IMAP Admin (I just noticed a new one) Thus I can get what I need - it's just not pretty. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. |
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From: Craig W. <cra...@az...> - 2005-09-16 05:09:22
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On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 14:53 +1000, Jamie Cameron wrote: > Usermin isn't really the best mail reader to use with cyrus, although that hasn't stopped people from trying :-) It really works best with more traditional mail stores, and has the advantage that it runs with the correct permissions to access all mail files directly. > > It may be better to instead use a web-based mail reader more suited to LDAP, such as squirrelmail.. > ---- I think I sort of knew this but took a look to see where the current feature set was when Joe mentioned it on the other thread. So I asked just in case I was missing something obvious. Now that I've drank from the cyrus well (quotas, autocreate folders, autocreate subscriptions, autocreate shared folders, autocreate sieve scripts, granular acls and seen the performance monster in action), I could never go back to an mbox type server and have implored all my customers to make the switch. I'll just chalk this one up to you can't have it all. Thanks Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. |
