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From: Roger B.A. K. <ro...@qu...> - 2005-09-18 07:24:26
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In order to address the fails-to-restart issue, I deinstalled Webmin 1.220 and installed 1.226... which then required that I install Virtualmin... which then lost my 60+ defined virtual servers. Any idea what I did wrong so it doesn't happen again? |
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From: Vernon J. S. <ve...@ve...> - 2005-09-18 07:48:51
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There are actually two different methods I would have attempted but one that is crucial. First is to always make backup. Since Virtualmin has a backup utility you should use it before you make any changes to your server. When changing the version of Webmin you have two choices you can make. 1. This is to upgrade the by using the Webmin section of the web interface and going to the Webmin configuration. This is the one I would recommend doing before any sudden changes. 2. Uninstall and re-install Webmin after having made all the backups. You can still recover the Virtualmin accounts by using the import feature of the module. Granted it may require you to reset the passwords and you may run into errors with the passwords with SQL portion. But you technically did not loose the users or the actual information. Recovery is a pain staking event but it does teach a vital lesson. Backups and logs are your friend. I understand that this does not resolve the actual issue with the fail-to-restart but at least you will have a better ideal when upgrading and some weight off your shoulders on the lost accounts. ------------------------------------------ Vernon J. Spangler http://www.vernonspangler.org/ (520) 512-8410 Home (520) 990-1863 Cell ve...@ve... ------------------------------------------ Powered by Windows XP Professional Sent by Microsoft Outlook 2003 -----Original Message----- From: Roger B.A. Klorese [mailto:ro...@qu...] Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 12:24 AM To: web...@li... Subject: [webmin-l] Virtualmin Deinstall/Install losing configuration In order to address the fails-to-restart issue, I deinstalled Webmin 1.220 and installed 1.226... which then required that I install Virtualmin... which then lost my 60+ defined virtual servers. Any idea what I did wrong so it doesn't happen again? |
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From: Roger B.A. K. <ro...@qu...> - 2005-09-18 08:27:01
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Would I be correct in: - disabling the option to set the MySQL password to agree with the user password - importing the servers with a blank password - re-enabling the password synchronization - telling users to log in and change their passwords to the current value ...so Webmin could save the password for future database uses? Vernon J. Spangler wrote: >There are actually two different methods I would have attempted but one that >is crucial. First is to always make backup. Since Virtualmin has a backup >utility you should use it before you make any changes to your server. > >When changing the version of Webmin you have two choices you can make. >1. This is to upgrade the by using the Webmin section of the web interface >and going to the Webmin configuration. This is the one I would recommend >doing before any sudden changes. >2. Uninstall and re-install Webmin after having made all the backups. > >You can still recover the Virtualmin accounts by using the import feature of >the module. Granted it may require you to reset the passwords and you may >run into errors with the passwords with SQL portion. But you technically did >not loose the users or the actual information. Recovery is a pain staking >event but it does teach a vital lesson. Backups and logs are your friend. I >understand that this does not resolve the actual issue with the >fail-to-restart but at least you will have a better ideal when upgrading and >some weight off your shoulders on the lost accounts. > >------------------------------------------ >Vernon J. Spangler >http://www.vernonspangler.org/ >(520) 512-8410 Home >(520) 990-1863 Cell >ve...@ve... >------------------------------------------ > Powered by Windows XP Professional > Sent by Microsoft Outlook 2003 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Roger B.A. Klorese [mailto:ro...@qu...] >Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 12:24 AM >To: web...@li... >Subject: [webmin-l] Virtualmin Deinstall/Install losing configuration > >In order to address the fails-to-restart issue, I deinstalled Webmin >1.220 and installed 1.226... which then required that I install >Virtualmin... which then lost my 60+ defined virtual servers. > >Any idea what I did wrong so it doesn't happen again? > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >SF.Net email is sponsored by: >Tame your development challenges with Apache's Geronimo App Server. Download >it for free - -and be entered to win a 42" plasma tv or your very own >Sony(tm)PSP. Click here to play: http://sourceforge.net/geronimo.php >- >Forwarded by the Webmin mailing list at web...@li... >To remove yourself from this list, go to >http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webadmin-list > > |
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From: Joe C. <jo...@sw...> - 2005-09-18 15:58:35
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Hey Roger, I know it's too late for you in this case, but I'd like to chime in here to state emphatically that one should /never/ uninstall/reinstall a previously working piece of server software that has be configured for your environment in order to try to fix a problem with that software (any problem). Something like Webmin has dozens of configuration files that will be removed during the uninstallation process, and sometimes their removal can be very uncomfortable...While Webmin modules don't store a lot of necessary state data in /etc/webmin, Virtualmin does (it has to because of what it does--it is a wholly different mindset from Webmin's one-to-one presentation of system configuration files...Virtualmin is itself a complex piece of software with its own configuration and lots of state data that is unique to Virtualmin). Losing all of that data is a much bigger problem than the very small problem of not being able to login. If you have backups of /etc/virtualmin, you can restore everything, including passwords. If you don't, getting a good backup policy is your first step. Beyond that, the solution is definitely not blank passwords. ;-) You can set temporary passwords for each user, and ask them to login with that password to reset to their previous password. I don't believe password syncrhonization will be a problem, even if the user opts to change the password to something entirely different, as MySQL user passwords are changed by the root user. There are some situations where Virtualmin needs to have the plain text password, but that isn't one of them. Anyway, try it out with one test account and let us know what happens. If password synching does prove to be a problem, we'll probably be able to help you resolve it. I might be wrong about my assertions (I don't manage any servers with heavy, or possibly even any, MySQL usage...so I might be missing some of the nuances of the situation), but I'm sure we can get it all resolved without too much pain or opening up your server to the insecurity of blank passwords (which would still be subject to the same problems temporary passwords would have). Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > Would I be correct in: > - disabling the option to set the MySQL password to agree with the user > password > - importing the servers with a blank password > - re-enabling the password synchronization > - telling users to log in and change their passwords to the current value > ...so Webmin could save the password for future database uses? > > > Vernon J. Spangler wrote: > >> There are actually two different methods I would have attempted but >> one that >> is crucial. First is to always make backup. Since Virtualmin has a backup >> utility you should use it before you make any changes to your server. >> >> When changing the version of Webmin you have two choices you can make. >> 1. This is to upgrade the by using the Webmin section of the web >> interface >> and going to the Webmin configuration. This is the one I would recommend >> doing before any sudden changes. >> 2. Uninstall and re-install Webmin after having made all the backups. >> >> You can still recover the Virtualmin accounts by using the import >> feature of >> the module. Granted it may require you to reset the passwords and you may >> run into errors with the passwords with SQL portion. But you >> technically did >> not loose the users or the actual information. Recovery is a pain staking >> event but it does teach a vital lesson. Backups and logs are your >> friend. I >> understand that this does not resolve the actual issue with the >> fail-to-restart but at least you will have a better ideal when >> upgrading and >> some weight off your shoulders on the lost accounts. |
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From: Roger B.A. K. <ro...@qu...> - 2005-09-18 19:33:05
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Joe Cooper wrote: > Hey Roger, > > I know it's too late for you in this case, but I'd like to chime in > here to state emphatically that one should /never/ uninstall/reinstall > a previously working piece of server software that has be configured > for your environment in order to try to fix a problem with that > software (any problem). Something like Webmin has dozens of > configuration files that will be removed during the uninstallation > process, and sometimes their removal can be very uncomfortable... Most software products that require configuration files, registry settings, etc. exither explcitly ask if you intend to delete the configuration, or remove only the software and leave the configuration. > Losing all of that data is a much bigger problem than the very small > problem of not being able to login. Actually, since we don't use subdomains, child sites or email -- basically, use Virtualmin just as a simple website templating -- it was no big calamity. > Beyond that, the solution is definitely not blank passwords. ;-) Um, blank passwords ON THE IMPORT. The accounts already exist, and we are using Unix authentication. So the only use for the stored passwords is proper applciaiton to the managed database. That should be achievable by having the users change their passwords to the current password. > I might be wrong about my assertions (I don't manage any servers with > heavy, or possibly even any, MySQL usage...so I might be missing some > of the nuances of the situation), but I'm sure we can get it all > resolved without too much pain or opening up your server to the > insecurity of blank passwords (which would still be subject to the > same problems temporary passwords would have). Again, unless I misunderstand something, importing with a blank password, especially when set for Unix authentication, does not provide any securiy risk. (As for your not usinmg MySQL -- well, sure, I don't use webmail, and for that matter, don't understand why you guys even bothered to include it when there are so many other webmail packages...!) |
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From: Joe C. <jo...@sw...> - 2005-09-18 21:59:04
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Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > Joe Cooper wrote: > >> Hey Roger, >> >> I know it's too late for you in this case, but I'd like to chime in >> here to state emphatically that one should /never/ uninstall/reinstall >> a previously working piece of server software that has be configured >> for your environment in order to try to fix a problem with that >> software (any problem). Something like Webmin has dozens of >> configuration files that will be removed during the uninstallation >> process, and sometimes their removal can be very uncomfortable... > > Most software products that require configuration files, registry > settings, etc. exither explcitly ask if you intend to delete the > configuration, or remove only the software and leave the configuration. On a package manager equipped system (i.e. RPM), this decision is up to the package manager. That's not the whole story for Webmin, though. Webmins RPM is a bit different than a standard RPM because it has to run on many many many platforms and work correctly on all of them....It makes a lot of decisions at install (and uninstall) time that most packages don't make. But one thing it (or any other RPM) can't do is ask questions. RPM has a standing law that a package install and uninstall must be fully scriptable...and asking a question kills that capability. So, in short, there's no way to ask if the user intends to delete configuration files in an RPM uninstall. There is probably a way to make it not delete configuration files, though I'm not sure off-hand what it is. Of course, if that had happened you would have reinstalled only to find you had the same configuration problem you had before and then you might be complaining because uninstalling didn't actually uninstall everything! ;-) >> Losing all of that data is a much bigger problem than the very small >> problem of not being able to login. > > > > Actually, since we don't use subdomains, child sites or email -- > basically, use Virtualmin just as a simple website templating -- it was > no big calamity. Good! I'm glad to hear it. >> Beyond that, the solution is definitely not blank passwords. ;-) > > > > Um, blank passwords ON THE IMPORT. > > The accounts already exist, and we are using Unix authentication. So > the only use for the stored passwords is proper applciaiton to the > managed database. That should be achievable by having the users change > their passwords to the current password. Ah, I see. Yes, if you're importing them under the control of existing users, then all should be fine. I misunderstood your intention. > (As for your not usinmg MySQL -- well, sure, I don't use webmail, and > for that matter, don't understand why you guys even bothered to include > it when there are so many other webmail packages...!) Integration is a lovely thing. With Usermin we get common themes, common administrative interface, code re-use in a lot of different modules, a single set of interface conventions, etc. A lot of useability folks consider consistency to be the single more important aspect of ease of use. So, if every tier of a hosting system is the same core software, useability should be much better than if there are several different components with different look and feel and different usage conventions. There are a number of very good webmail packages available now (many of which weren't so good when Usermin first came along), and we'll likely support some of them in some kind of automated way for folks who want an alternative, but none of them will ever look/feel/behave in the same way as Webmin and Virtualmin and thus will always introduce a new level of complexity to the overall system that doesn't need to be there. (BTW-The new Virtualmin-Nuvola theme for Usermin makes Usermin look as good as just about any webmail on the market...We just need to make sure all of the functionality, which is also top-notch, is easy to understand and use.) Anyway, Usermin webmail is not a second-string part of the system...It's going to be getting some pretty big improvements in the next few weeks. |
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From: Roger B.A. K. <ro...@qu...> - 2005-09-18 22:25:43
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Joe Cooper wrote: > On a package manager equipped system (i.e. RPM), this decision is up > to the package manager. That's not the whole story for Webmin, > though. Webmins RPM is a bit different than a standard RPM because it > has to run on many many many platforms and work correctly on all of > them....It makes a lot of decisions at install (and uninstall) time > that most packages don't make. But one thing it (or any other RPM) > can't do is ask questions. RPM has a standing law that a package > install and uninstall must be fully scriptable...and asking a question > kills that capability. Then you always preserve data on deinstall, and tell the user that data was kept and can be removed manually by <...>. > So, in short, there's no way to ask if the user intends to delete > configuration files in an RPM uninstall. There is probably a way to > make it not delete configuration files, though I'm not sure off-hand > what it is. Of course, if that had happened you would have > reinstalled only to find you had the same configuration problem you > had before and then you might be complaining because uninstalling > didn't actually uninstall everything! ;-) Um, since the problem was specifically that the previous production version did not properly set Webmin to restart on every boot, perhaps a simple fix for that problem should have been posted instead of "helpful" instructions to deinstall and reinstall. > There are a number of very good webmail packages available now (many > of which weren't so good when Usermin first came along), and we'll > likely support some of them in some kind of automated way for folks > who want an alternative, but none of them will ever look/feel/behave > in the same way as Webmin and Virtualmin and thus will always > introduce a new level of complexity to the overall system that doesn't > need to be there. Yes, but 99% of the users of email services would never see any other part of Webmin/Virtualmin -- only their web admins would. > Anyway, Usermin webmail is not a second-string part of the > system...It's going to be getting some pretty big improvements in the > next few weeks. I still don't see what it has to do with the "min" part of the name. |
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From: Joe C. <jo...@sw...> - 2005-09-18 23:29:53
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Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > Joe Cooper wrote: > >> On a package manager equipped system (i.e. RPM), this decision is up >> to the package manager. That's not the whole story for Webmin, >> though. Webmins RPM is a bit different than a standard RPM because it >> has to run on many many many platforms and work correctly on all of >> them....It makes a lot of decisions at install (and uninstall) time >> that most packages don't make. But one thing it (or any other RPM) >> can't do is ask questions. RPM has a standing law that a package >> install and uninstall must be fully scriptable...and asking a question >> kills that capability. > > > > Then you always preserve data on deinstall, and tell the user that data > was kept and can be removed manually by <...>. Yep. You're probably quite right, and I hope I didn't come across as disagreeing with you. It just doesn't work that way today. >> So, in short, there's no way to ask if the user intends to delete >> configuration files in an RPM uninstall. There is probably a way to >> make it not delete configuration files, though I'm not sure off-hand >> what it is. Of course, if that had happened you would have >> reinstalled only to find you had the same configuration problem you >> had before and then you might be complaining because uninstalling >> didn't actually uninstall everything! ;-) > > Um, since the problem was specifically that the previous production > version did not properly set Webmin to restart on every boot, perhaps a > simple fix for that problem should have been posted instead of "helpful" > instructions to deinstall and reinstall. I certainly didn't recommend that course of action! I'm sorry someone did, and that I missed the chance to correct the bad advice. I'll write up a FAQ about common "can't login", "ACLs are broken", and "you do not have access to any modules" problems--the solutions are often similar, and at least debugging the problems usually start in the same place. BTW-Please note the smiley in my above comment. >> There are a number of very good webmail packages available now (many >> of which weren't so good when Usermin first came along), and we'll >> likely support some of them in some kind of automated way for folks >> who want an alternative, but none of them will ever look/feel/behave >> in the same way as Webmin and Virtualmin and thus will always >> introduce a new level of complexity to the overall system that doesn't >> need to be there. > > Yes, but 99% of the users of email services would never see any other > part of Webmin/Virtualmin -- only their web admins would. Perhaps, though we're not primarily targeting "email services". Virtualmin isn't a very good fit on dedicated email servers, though Webmin would be very useful there (see the Cyrus/IMAP thread for my thoughts on the high volume mail server issue vs. the needs of a virtual hosting administration system). I'm just as concerned with users coming up from Usermin as administrators going down from Webmin and Virtualmin (i.e. folks who start out as email users but end up being promoted to administrators...if they're already familiar with the interface conventions, it will be easier to grasp the new privileges). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with other webmail software or that I have any opposition to offering multiple webmail packages, just that Usermin has its place, and we'll be doing what we can to insure that no one can ever say "This other webmail supports <feature-that-I-need> and Usermin doesn't". So, someone can say "I like <blank> webmail better because it is more blue and has a toad for a mascot, so it is far superior"...but I'd like to make sure the feature set is top-notch. >> Anyway, Usermin webmail is not a second-string part of the >> system...It's going to be getting some pretty big improvements in the >> next few weeks. > > I still don't see what it has to do with the "min" part of the name. Hehehe...The "min" has become tradition. But it makes sense if you remember that Usermin allows a user to administer all of their own settings (spam settings, mail filters, auto-replies, address book, cronjobs, at jobs, files in their home directory, etc.). It is still an administrative tool, it just doesn't wield the administrative power of Webmin. Of course, the "min" might be intimidating for normal users, and simply calling it "Webmail" would be more obvious. We'll be doing some real useability testing before too long (something Webmin/Usermin/Virtualmin has never really had to my knowledge), and all such questions will be better understood. And, of course, no one is gonna force you to use Usermin just because you're using Webmin and Virtualmin. It's not a law, they just happen to work really well together. Feel free to grab Horde/IMP, as Craig so eloquently campaigned for, or OpenWebmail, or one of the dozens of other projects that do webmail. Let us know what problems you run into and we'll try to help. (But also let us know what you feel is lacking in Usermin...we'd like to fix it.) Regards, Joe |
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From: Craig W. <cra...@az...> - 2005-09-19 00:25:31
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On Sun, 2005-09-18 at 18:29 -0500, Joe Cooper wrote: > Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > > Joe Cooper wrote: > > And, of course, no one is gonna force you to use Usermin just because > you're using Webmin and Virtualmin. It's not a law, they just happen to > work really well together. Feel free to grab Horde/IMP, as Craig so > eloquently campaigned for, or OpenWebmail, or one of the dozens of other > projects that do webmail. Let us know what problems you run into and > we'll try to help. (But also let us know what you feel is lacking in > Usermin...we'd like to fix it.) ---- I didn't do any campaiging for Horde/IMP - it's available elsewhere and packaging it into something else would be a nightmare. I was suggesting that it seemed logical to me that more LDAP stuff, a better cyrus-imapd implementation and virtual users support (non-shell, non-home directory), might be very useful for your client base but it's not my job to identify your client base and I'm not even a potential client since I don't do virtual hosting. In the Horde/IMP vein, I was suggesting that 'ingo' the filter manager for Horde, was the best implementation for user level editing of sieve/procmail filters that I had seen to date and suggested that you check out that implementation. Usermin - I have had little use for on the networks that I administrate...have set it up on 2 of them and have yet to field a question or notice any user even checking it out. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. |
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From: Jamie C. <jca...@we...> - 2005-09-19 03:40:48
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On Sun, 2005-09-18 at 17:23, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > In order to address the fails-to-restart issue, I deinstalled Webmin > 1.220 and installed 1.226... which then required that I install > Virtualmin... which then lost my 60+ defined virtual servers. > > Any idea what I did wrong so it doesn't happen again? Unfortunately, you didn't exactly do anything wrong - rather you, ran into a possible mis-feature of webmin that causes config files to be removed when un-installing. For most modules this doesn't matter much, but for virtualmin it is annoying because it has quite a lot of it's own configuration data. If you have a backup of the /etc/webmin directory, you could just restore /etc/webmin/virtual-server to get back all your sites. Ideally the built-in virtualmin backup feature would be able to restore from this kind of problem, but it cannot at the moment .. although I will certainly fix that in future. The easier solution to the problem of a restart failing is to use the Bootup and Shutdown module to create a new action called 'webmin' that runs /etc/webmin/start at boot time. - Jamie |
