Re: Webmin Framework

[Nick J. <ni...@na...>]

Joe, I believe the fine manual you are referring to is in regards to
writing a webmin module. This documentation is great, if all I wanted
to do was write a webmin module. That's not all I need to do, and that
isn't what I am having trouble with. I have several years of perl experience
and have developed and contributed to several open source projects using
my perl skills, so I don't think that is the issue either. 

Those docs don't cover "webmin development" as you say, they convert
developing webmin modules, there is a very drastic difference.

What I am trying to do is change the webmin framework. (i.e. the stuff
before the modules are called). There is no documentation on the layout
of webmin (e.g. filenames & their functions, the full process from
webmin being started (via. miniserv.pl) to webmin display and managing
its modules. 

the "themes" in webmin are pretty much a complete hack in my opinion, your
basically copying the webmin code into a different directory and then 
recoding it to do what you want. Theres no code reuse at all, if the main
webmin index.cgi is updated in a future release, those changes have to be
interpreted into however the "theme" was modified, and it's just a mess.

The directory structure contains modules, themes, and core level directories
all together.. the category tabs are hard coded etc.

I realize allot of the in-flexibility is due to the attempt at a cohesive
internationalization method, but I think things could be design in a
way that still allows flexibility and code re-use. 

I am not trying to just gripe out webmin's shortcomings, that isn't why
I subscribed to this list. I would like help, direction, advice, documentation
anything to help me do what I need to do, which is modify the core workings
of webmin to allow me to do things that currently you just can't do.

I think this is a key reason why there aren't hardly any webmin themes at 
all. You basically have to sit a recode the core handling of webmin's
index.cgi in order to make a theme, and all of the HTML is embedded in
the code instead of in templates.

On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:29:00PM -0500, Joe Cooper wrote:
> Read the fine manual, Nick.  (Not the one I wrote...the developer docs 
> written by Jamie.  They're linked right from the main Webmin page, and 
> while they tend to lag one or two releases behind, they are a great 
> source of information about general Webmin development and the routines 
> you have at your disposal.)
> 
> I've found Webmin to be /very/ easy to customize...and I'm perl 
> sub-literate (I can't read it and I can barely write it).
> 
> I'll conced that Webmin could be more modular (at the code level...not 
> referring to allowing third party modules).  I have found that 
> sometimes, rather than calling a routine from Jamies modules, I have to 
> just rip it out and paste it into my own modules...
> 
> Having been involved with Webmin since the early .7x versions, I can say 
> that it does seem to be getting more modular...more function oriented, 
> rather than put all the code in the order that it happens.
> 
> But, all that being said, I have to say something about looking a gift 
> horse in the mouth.  Webmin is the best thing going, by a long 
> shot...ever tried writing a module for LinuxConf?
> 
> Anyway, I think the number of third party modules (and the number of 
> proprietary products based on it) will attest to the fact that you are 
> not in the majority in thinking it's hard to understand or modify. 
> Maybe you just don't like Perl?  (And understandable position...I find 
> it rather confusing, myself, but as Perl goes, Webmin is a great example 
> of readable code.)
> 
> Nick Jennings wrote:
> 
> > Hello everyone,
> > 
> >  I have been looking at the webmin code for several days trying to grok
> >  it. There is no documentation on it that I can find, the comments in the
> >  code are sparse (to say the least), and even the variable and function
> >  names are not at all "self-documenting".
> > 
> >  In a short amount of time I need to change, significantly, some core
> >  things in webmin. Even so much as changing the way the HTML is printed
> >  is a task that requires extensive code manipulation, and all of the HTML
> >  is embedded in the code, rather thoroughly, and there are several function
> >  calls to other pieces of code, from other files,that make up certain
> >  parts of the HTML. None of this is documented and I can't figure out
> >  what these functions are doing, why they are needed etc.
> > 
> >  Has anyone else attempted something like this and ran into these problems?
> >  It seems like it is extremely difficult to reuse any code. Even within
> >  themes entire cgi's have to be rewritten to behave differently and print
> >  HTML out differently. 
> > 
> >  Are there any plans for an HTML Templating system? More flexible framework?
> >  Is there any technical Documentation? Anyone have any words of wisdom?
> >  
> >  Any comments apprectiated.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
>                                    --
>                       Joe Cooper <jo...@sw...>
>                   Affordable Web Caching Proxy Appliances
>                          http://www.swelltech.com
> 
> 
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-- 
  Nick Jennings