Re: [webmin-l] Ramblings after reviewing the pole

[John H. <web...@ew...>]

Doing some more research on the Webmin site regarding "Purpose".....


      What is Webmin?

Webmin is a web-based interface for system administration for Unix. 
Using any browser that supports tables and forms (and Java for the File 
Manager module), you can setup user accounts, Apache, DNS, file sharing 
and so on.


      Virtualmin

Virtualmin is a virtual hosting management system written by Jamie 
Cameron, that integrates cleanly into the Webmin 
<http://www.webmin.com/> system administration tool.


      What is Usermin?

Usermin is a web interface that can be used by any user on a Unix system 
to easily perform tasks like reading mail, setting up SSH or configuring 
mail forwarding. It can be thought of as a simplified version of Webmin 
designed for use by normal users rather than system administrators.

Nothing like getting back to the basics.

OK, yes, Webmin is for sysadmins and since Virtualmin is to be operated 
within Webmin, I guess that it should be considered for sysadmins. As 
far as these are concerned, yup, more help files and perhaps a review of 
terminology used would be of benefit to us sysadmins. There's always at 
least two ways to do the same task in Linux and sometimes 10 or 12. 
Occasionally it not so clear about what is being done and where/how. As 
I am working on a live system and abhor "messing up", just a bit more 
info in many areas would help me feel more at ease when doing certain 
operations..... But I don't think I'm really talking about Webmin with 
my hopes for having more self sufficient users.

Virtualmin is in some places sort of advertised as being for end users. 
Well....... if that is the case, it has missed the mark. My personal 
experience is that it is also for sysadmins and is easy enough for some 
well trained colo sysadmins.. with a lot of hand holding. And then only 
after some clear and concise 'methods' laid out by me. I really think 
Virtualmin is also only for sysadmins.

Usermin... This is the 'logical' area for 'users' and its purpose is 
advertised as such. Usermin does need a 'lot' of clarity, as users can 
'read' just about anything wrong. Users also feel that if something 
'looks good' it is 'good'. The Usermin interfaces that I see seem to be 
a bit old school (something I might be able to do some work with) and 
then just some tweaks to naming conventions and a pop-up help box for 
just about every action available.

The two major features I would like to see added to Usermin are POP and 
Alias functions. If I read right though (in the creating modules for 
Usermin section), Usermin is not supposed to have access to these areas, 
so perhaps there's a bit of a conflict with this request vs. its 
'purpose'? Did I understand this correctly Jamie?

I think someone already mentioned this.. but something like the new 
phpMyAdmin module for Virtualmin added to Usermin for both Webmail 
(Squirrelmail, IMP/Horde, etc.) and for phpMyAdmin. Yes, phpMyAdmin is 
over the heads of most users as is MySQL, but for the ones using 
database programs, most do learn how to use these applications.

One of the basics for my people is a single point of reference. They 
have a tough time remembering where webmail is, in spite of my creating 
two simple variations of their own domain name. Add to that another 
variation and they call instead of going there themselves. A very large 
number of our users do make use of webmail as again, email is so very 
important and it's getting harder for them to use an email client while 
in the field. It's always pretty easy to access the web, but with ports 
being blocked... blah blah blah... using their email client is not 
always easy. A single point of reference for our users is therefore very 
important and the main reason why I have been writing these emails.

My second concern is compatibility. I feel like compatibility between 
Webmin/Virtualmin/Usermin will always be better than for instance 
Webmin/Virtualmin/Squirrelmail_with_plugins. With the quality of the 
Webmin product line, how could any other combo work as well and have 
fewer issues? Also, keeping up with where things are on the servers.. 
get more complex as more interfaces are added... upgrading/moving to new 
servers is a lot harder already with just Webmin. More stuff? Yuck!

I've looked at several of the ISP software packages.. bought one.. 
donated to one.. am still looking hard at another.. but, to deal with 
POP/Aliases I still need to allow user access into Webmin and then also 
to Usermin to finish off the packages needed... This is no longer a 
single point of reference for my users and as stupid as that might seem, 
will more than likely just make them (or at least many of them) not use 
either one. They don't 'understand' why it can't be in one place. I 
could put links from our main page to these areas, but that gets tough 
as we operate many servers and getting them to the right server from a 
single page on this end is a bit of a coding task. It would be simply so 
easy to let them in via

https://users_domain_name.tld:20000
and have it as simple as that. Or even better, do an alias to

https://usermin.users_domain_name.tld

Hmm.. that could be interesting to play with. An webmin.conf for Apache 
that would send them to miniserv.. I wonder if that could work?

Also, third party modules can potentially come and go. If they go I 
could be faced with retraining my users or taking on another project. 
(and I'm not very proficient with perl)

I've spent a bit of time thinking about the basic interface of Webmin 
and have to say the original layout (or the one I've been looking at for 
the last 2 years) has proven to be a good model. Everything, including 
new packages has fit into that model  very well. I don't think there is 
any need for a major interface change, with only the possible exception 
of having Virtualmin in a section unto itself. So much power there, 
perhaps submenu abilities for Virtualmin would be a good thing, 
particularly as it grows? Good job Jamie!

Looking at the new Virtualmin Pro, whew!! Now a new theme like that 
would be fantastic, at least in the Usermin section. Personally, as a 
sysadmin I just want clean, compact and fast loading. The users though, 
they do like the glitz and glamour and the look of something that is 
current which must make them feel like the program itself is current.

I hope that my comments are taken as a compliment to Webmin/Virtualmin. 
I think earlier on, I was perhaps thinking about those in terms of end 
users. The lack of suggestions beyond a few more help pop-ups in those 
should be taken a a great compliment to the programs. There is so little 
that you can't do and again.. 'please' keep those key 'edit config file' 
areas opened as I don't really want to be stuck with only a 
preconfigured GUI that must be used! <shudder>

I do think though that "a simplified version of Webmin designed for use 
by normal users" for the above listed ideas could position Webmin well 
above all the other possibilities.

Best,
John Hinton