visualpython-users

Re: [Visualpython-users] installation problem

[M. L. <ml...@ne...>]

Christoph,
I checked my VPython and Python 2.4.1 installation on my winXP notebook. =
=20
There is no path variable set for python. But when you check =20
Systemsteuerung -> Software there Python must be listed. After deleting a=
n =20
older Python installation (2.3.4) I re-started the current one - the =20
installer of 2.4.1 offered a "repair" option which I chose to make sure =20
everything is there.
After that the VPYthon installer "VPython-Win-Py2.4-3.2.2.exe" didn't ask=
 =20
for any path because it found the python installation.
The easiest may be to re-install Python again?

Martin.

On Sat, 21 May 2005 18:34:01 +0200, Christoph St=E4hli =20
<aun...@da...> wrote:

> hello
>
> when i try to install VPython-Win-Py2.4-3.2.2.exe i get the error: "You=
 =20
> must enter a folder name". Before that i specified C:\Python24 as =20
> directory (i tried C:\Python24\Lib\site-packages\ too), because the =20
> setup wizard couldn't find the python dir. The message "Could not locat=
e =20
> where python 2.4 is installed .." appears 2 times, which is strange. i =
=20
> have installed winXP.
>
> thanks for your tipps in advance.
>
> christoph

Re: [Visualpython-users] installation problem

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

The only thing I can think of is that something went wrong with the=20
installation of Python 2.4, since the VPython installer couldn't find=20
it. I would try uninstalling and reinstalling Python 2.4, then trying=20
again to install VPython.

Bruce Sherwood

Christoph St=E4hli wrote:
> hello
>=20
> when i try to install VPython-Win-Py2.4-3.2.2.exe i get the error: "You=
=20
> must enter a folder name". Before that i specified C:\Python24 as=20
> directory (i tried C:\Python24\Lib\site-packages\ too), because the=20
> setup wizard couldn't find the python dir. The message "Could not locat=
e=20
> where python 2.4 is installed .." appears 2 times, which is strange. i=20
> have installed winXP.
>=20
> thanks for your tipps in advance.
>=20
> christoph
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
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[Visualpython-users] installation problem

[<aun...@da...>]

hello

when i try to install VPython-Win-Py2.4-3.2.2.exe i get the error: "You 
must enter a folder name". Before that i specified C:\Python24 as 
directory (i tried C:\Python24\Lib\site-packages\ too), because the 
setup wizard couldn't find the python dir. The message "Could not locate 
where python 2.4 is installed .." appears 2 times, which is strange. i 
have installed winXP.

thanks for your tipps in advance.

christoph

[Visualpython-users] Movable Python CD

[Frank N. <fra...@sb...>]

How to Make a Movable Python CD with VPython, Numeric, and numarray:

(1) The computer which is to burn the CD should have Python and VPython
installed.

(2) Download and unzip Movable Python Standard 0.4.6-2.4.  The standard
distribution comes with IPython, psyco, wxPython, IDLE, and SPE built in. 
Available at:
<http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=126756>

(3) Next, go to C:\Python24\Lib\sitepackages\ and copy the folders numarray,
Numeric, Visual, and the file Numeric.pth.

(4) Paste them into the Movable Python movpy\lib\ folder.

(5) Edit the syspaths.pth file located in movpy\lib\ to include the word
Numeric.

(6) Burn the movpy folder onto a CD and you're done!

This is NOT at boot CD (like Knoppix).  Windows must be up and running on the
computer that is to execute Movable Python.  To use Python on the CD, simply
open the file idle.bat or spe.bat on the CD.  It will take several seconds for
either one to start.

Recent testing has shown that the CD will work on CITRIX XP workstations, but
Vpython is too slow to be useful.  In addition, I have NOT had success using
the CD on the Win98 workstations.  XP workstations are fine.

To the best of my knowledge, no MAC verison of Movable Python is available.

For more info about Movable Python, see:
<http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/movpy/>

Have fun!
Frank Noschese
John Jay High School
Cross River, NY

Re: [Visualpython-users] UPDATE 2: High School Network Security

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

I should mention that North Carolina State University has had VPython 
available in all its public clusters for the last three years. No 
problems have been reported.

Bruce Sherwood

Frank Noschese wrote:
> Hello again,
> 
> I was able to make a Movable Python CD that includes Idle and the VPython,
> Numerical, and numarray packages.  It runs right off the CD, no installation
> necessary.  Doesn't work well with the Citrix XP machines, but regular Novell
> XP and '98 machines are fine.  The students can still save their work to their
> network H:/ drive, but Python can't run unless the CD is in the drive. 
> Everything on the network stays intact!
> 
> It was very easy to do...I can post instructions if anyone is interested.
> 
> Thanks again so much for all your help!  I replied to the tech coodinator with
> some of your responses...they will reconsider the installation at their next
> meeting (but I did unfortunately ruffle a few feathers).
> 
> Frank Noschese
> John Jay High School
> Cross River, NY
> 
> 
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Re: [Visualpython-users] UPDATE 2: High School Network Security

[Douglas S. B. <db...@br...>]

Frank Noschese wrote:

> [Making the bootable CD] was very easy to do...I can post instructions if anyone is interested.

That would be useful; any pointers or details would be quite appreciated!

-Doug

[Visualpython-users] UPDATE 2: High School Network Security

[Frank N. <fra...@sb...>]

Hello again,

I was able to make a Movable Python CD that includes Idle and the VPython,
Numerical, and numarray packages.  It runs right off the CD, no installation
necessary.  Doesn't work well with the Citrix XP machines, but regular Novell
XP and '98 machines are fine.  The students can still save their work to their
network H:/ drive, but Python can't run unless the CD is in the drive. 
Everything on the network stays intact!

It was very easy to do...I can post instructions if anyone is interested.

Thanks again so much for all your help!  I replied to the tech coodinator with
some of your responses...they will reconsider the installation at their next
meeting (but I did unfortunately ruffle a few feathers).

Frank Noschese
John Jay High School
Cross River, NY

Re: [Visualpython-users] native Mac

[Jonathan B. <jbr...@ea...>]

On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 16:47 -0400, Bruce Sherwood wrote:

> So to that end, the dependencies not shipped with 10.4 appear to be 
> Boost and Gtk+ (which both have 10.3/4 native builds).

Oh?  To the best of my knowledge, there is no "native" build of Gtk+
that doesn't use X11.  Three projects were started to port Gtk 1.2 to
Carbon or Cocoa; those died.  One more is working on Gtk 2.x, but it
isn't remotely close to being ready.

-Jonathan

Re: [Visualpython-users] native Mac

[Gary P. <gp...@ri...>]

I'm no Mac developer but ... would the MacEnthon project help us get 
things straight?
http://www.scipy.org/wikis/featurerequests/MacEnthon
(a one-click-install native Mac scientific python environment.)


I have one foot in Windows and one foot in Mac and I can tell you that 
installing on a Mac is a real pain.  Over Chrismas I had to install on 
some virgin (fink-less, X11-less) 10.2 machines and some 10.3 machines.  
10.3 was a little smoother, but it took about 12 days to do the job.  (I 
also installed scipy, ipython and matplotlib).    I also had to install 
on a Windows machine.  The whole thing took 20 minutes.
 
[Personally I don't like the Mac interface, so I normally operate on the 
Mac using fink apps in Xwindows.   (flame on!)  But I'm sure I can learn 
to love the Mac.  :)   I'm old and set in my ways, having cut my teeth 
on punch cards, and then advanced to RT-11]



Bruce Sherwood wrote:

> We have a Mac lab and one of the support people made the following 
> comment, which I pass along on the chance it will suggest another 
> possible approach for someone in the VPython community who is 
> knowledgeable about the Mac environment.
>
> ----------------------
> I find it much more difficult for me to support the separate Xwindows 
> vpython.  My goal is to get to a native MacOS X implementation which 
> can be layered on the python that ships from the vendor.  From my 
> stand point if I could just add Numeric and Visual to 
> /Library/Python/2.3/site-packages and then call 
> /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/idlelib/idle 
>  I am way ahead of the game support wise (no Xwindows to block logout, 
> no long build sessions, vendor does most of the work, etc).
>
> So to that end, the dependencies not shipped with 10.4 appear to be 
> Boost and Gtk+ (which both have 10.3/4 native builds). I believe that 
> a full non-Xwindows build of Visual could be done (Numeric and 
> numarray are already available at http://pythonmac.org/packages/) but 
> I do not have the resources to put into any development in this area.  
> There may be other dependencies I am not aware of as well.
>
> Otherwise:
> For the individual user the workaround posted by Aaron Titus is fine. 
> If you wanted to extend that by creating a platypus 
> (http://sveinbjorn.sytes.net/platypus) application which would be a 
> self contained application of the vpython Xwindows parts from fink 
> that would be great!!
>
>
>
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Re: [Visualpython-users] native Mac

[Brad M. <bm...@lu...>]

I agree!

The folks over on the pythonmac-sig mailing list are doing a great  
job of building packages that integrate with either 2.3.5 or even  
better the 2.4.1 build of Python.  Both of which have a nice version  
of idle.  It seems like such a waste to me to have to start up X11 to  
do OpenGL when there is such great OpenGL support native on the mac.

I have tried (unsuccessfully) to get the latest versions of Boost,  
Boost.python and VPython to compile and work together under gcc-4.0  
and Tiger.  If anyone is interested in collaborating I would be  
willing to continue to put some effort on this.

Brad
--
Brad Miller, PhD
Assistant Professor, Computer Science
Luther College
http://www.cs.luther.edu/~bmiller
jabber:  bn...@ja...



On May 17, 2005, at 3:47 PM, Bruce Sherwood wrote:

> We have a Mac lab and one of the support people made the following  
> comment, which I pass along on the chance it will suggest another  
> possible approach for someone in the VPython community who is  
> knowledgeable about the Mac environment.
>
> ----------------------
> I find it much more difficult for me to support the separate  
> Xwindows vpython.  My goal is to get to a native MacOS X  
> implementation which can be layered on the python that ships from  
> the vendor.  From my stand point if I could just add Numeric and  
> Visual to /Library/Python/2.3/site-packages and then call /System/ 
> Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ 
> idlelib/idle  I am way ahead of the game support wise (no Xwindows  
> to block logout, no long build sessions, vendor does most of the  
> work, etc).
>
> So to that end, the dependencies not shipped with 10.4 appear to be  
> Boost and Gtk+ (which both have 10.3/4 native builds). I believe  
> that a full non-Xwindows build of Visual could be done (Numeric and  
> numarray are already available at http://pythonmac.org/packages/)  
> but I do not have the resources to put into any development in this  
> area.  There may be other dependencies I am not aware of as well.
>
> Otherwise:
> For the individual user the workaround posted by Aaron Titus is  
> fine. If you wanted to extend that by creating a platypus (http:// 
> sveinbjorn.sytes.net/platypus) application which would be a self  
> contained application of the vpython Xwindows parts from fink that  
> would be great!!
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> Vis...@li...
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>

[Visualpython-users] native Mac

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

We have a Mac lab and one of the support people made the following 
comment, which I pass along on the chance it will suggest another 
possible approach for someone in the VPython community who is 
knowledgeable about the Mac environment.

----------------------
I find it much more difficult for me to support the separate Xwindows 
vpython.  My goal is to get to a native MacOS X implementation which can 
be layered on the python that ships from the vendor.  From my stand 
point if I could just add Numeric and Visual to 
/Library/Python/2.3/site-packages and then call 
/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/idlelib/idle 
  I am way ahead of the game support wise (no Xwindows to block logout, 
no long build sessions, vendor does most of the work, etc).

So to that end, the dependencies not shipped with 10.4 appear to be 
Boost and Gtk+ (which both have 10.3/4 native builds). I believe that a 
full non-Xwindows build of Visual could be done (Numeric and numarray 
are already available at http://pythonmac.org/packages/) but I do not 
have the resources to put into any development in this area.  There may 
be other dependencies I am not aware of as well.

Otherwise:
For the individual user the workaround posted by Aaron Titus is fine. 
If you wanted to extend that by creating a platypus 
(http://sveinbjorn.sytes.net/platypus) application which would be a self 
contained application of the vpython Xwindows parts from fink that would 
be great!!

Re: [Visualpython-users] EPS output with gl2ps

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

I was unable to read the eps files into Adobe Illustrator, which hangs. 
Something is wrong with the format (or with Adobe Illustrator).

The quality of the image is basically defined by the number of triangles 
VPython chooses to use to create spheres, etc., so that at ordinary 
sizes I see little difference between the screen capture and the pdf (I 
was unable to view the eps version), though of course when I blow up the 
pdf by a large factor it doesn't get more jagged as the screen capture 
bitmp image would.

The export to Pov-Ray using the module available at vpython.org produces 
much better final images, because the image is ray-traced and doesn't 
depend on the triangles used to render the VPython scene in real time.

Bruce Sherwood

Thomas Pohl wrote:
> Hiho,
> ok, here are two examples:
> http://www10.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~pohlt/vpython/
> 
> Remark: The PDF versions slightly differe from the screenshot
> since they have been created separately.
> 
> As you can see (also from the file sizes ;-/), it's
> not just a wrapped bitmap file but real vector graphics.
> The EPS/PDF output can be tuned by lots of parameters
> in gl2ps. I haven't had the time to find the optimal
> values, but the results look pretty usable for me.
> 
> Tomorrow, I will also put the diff files online, since
> some people seem to be interested in this feature.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> Jonathan Brandmeyer wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 13:18 +0200, Thomas Pohl wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>> first of all: thanks a lot for this great tool!
>>>
>>> What I was missing most was an EPS output, so I
>>> I just added a screenshot feature to vpython using
>>> gl2ps ( http://www.geuz.org/gl2ps/ ). Are you interested
>>> in the changes? Should I send some diff files to the
>>> current cvs?
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you post a link to some examples showing the PS output and a plain
>> screenshot of the VPython window for comparison?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
> 

[Visualpython-users] Re: UPDATE: High School Network Security

[<ajs...@op...>]

thom writes -

>I thought these links might be helpful in your case:
>http://www.python.org/Quotes.html Where several key industry rep's
>praise Python. If you get them past loading Python, VPython should be
>easy.

For the record, I am of the opinion that what Frank is running into is
symptomatic of deeper issues about the roll-out of technology in
the school systems.

There is a good degree, IMO, of somnambulism driving the process. 

It is definitely a good, progessive thing to do.  That we know.

We're just sure why.

The situation leaves a gaping hole for those with a business
interest in the developments. It is their mission to be convincing
and we are predisposed to be convinced.

There are many circumstances where one can relax with the 
knowledge that in the end merit will triumph - even if the road 
there is a bit convoluted.  

I cannot relax because I don't see this as one of those 
circumstances.

I do agree that if there is a fight to be made it has to be 
conducted at a higher political level than tangling 
with the school system AV department.

I guess I am not yet so cynical as to believe that a political will 
cannot be developed to revisit the circumstance of our 
school systems - working within the circumstances of 
extremely limited resources - *insisting* on paying for 
product and services where products and services of 
equal or higher quality are available for little or nothing.

But I am reluctant to join forces with the Open Source folks 
who would be satisfied with that victory alone.  I would not.  
I would press on toward much better answers to the questions 
of why, when and where the introduction of technology 
is appropriate to enhance the educational experience of 
young people. 

I personally see a quite narrow set of such circumstances. 

I am here because I happen to think VPython is exactly the type
of application that fills that narrow slit.

But I can generalize very little from the fact that I can well understand
how VPython can be used productively.

I happen to believe that  there aren't many VPythons out there. Or
else, not many slits.

Art

Re: [Visualpython-users] VPython on Tiger (zoom and spin)

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

If I remember correctly, there is an option in the X-window system on 
Mac OSX to specify what keys to press to simulate right and middle mouse 
buttons. That is, it's a user option, though I thought the defaults 
would have included some meaning for shift and/or control, or maybe the 
Apple key?

Bruce Sherwood

sb...@ma... wrote:
> Thanks a lot for the hits to install VP on Tiger. It works fine.
> 
> Everything is working but apperently the zoom (shift key + mouse)
> and the spin (control key + mouse) don't work
> 
> Any idea?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> 
> Luca
> 
> PS
> Dear Frank,
> are these guys real? Are they sprouting directly from Redmond?
> 
> Best wishes
> ________________________
> Dr Luca Sbano
> Mathematics Institute
> University of Warwick
> CV4 7AL Coventry U.K.
> ________________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [Visualpython-users] UPDATE: High School Network Security

[Ives, T. W. <tho...@hp...>]

Frank,

I thought these links might be helpful in your case:
http://www.python.org/Quotes.html Where several key industry rep's
praise Python. If you get them past loading Python, VPython should be
easy.

thom=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: vis...@li...=20
> [mailto:vis...@li...] On=20
> Behalf Of Frank Noschese
> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 12:00 PM
> To: vis...@li...; ed...@py...
> Subject: [Visualpython-users] UPDATE: High School Network Security
>=20
> Hello again,
>=20
> Thanks to everyone that gave input to my Vpython installation=20
> roadblock. Like Arthur said, this is not a situation which=20
> will be fixed by a little "education." I asked the tech=20
> coordinator to outline the reasons why installing open source=20
> is not in the school's best interest. Here is the reply:
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> "In Reference to our ticket #313, there are a number of=20
> reasons why we (the technical team) decided that it would not=20
> be in keeping with the "best practices" of the district to=20
> install open source software on the districts computers and=20
> network. Four key reasons are as follows:
>=20
> 1) Lack of technical support from the 'vendor'. Since most=20
> open source software is provided 'free' and is not maintained=20
> by a central vendor, technical support is limited if not non=20
> existent. With this lack of technical support of the software=20
> products in question, we have no way of getting help when the=20
> software has a problem or is the cause of problems with the network.
>=20
> 2) Product testing was another reason. Since there are so=20
> many contributors to open source software, in many cases, the=20
> software is not tested for compatibility and stability. As=20
> such, there is no level of expectation that the product will=20
> function as stated. Further more, with the limited testing of=20
> the software, we have no idea of what problems or ill effects=20
> the software may have on the computers and network.
>=20
> 3) Legal issues. According to the American Bar Association,=20
> Contributors do not vouch for the cleanliness of the code=20
> they contribute to the project; in fact, the opposite is true=20
> -- the standard open source license is designed to be very=20
> protective of the contributor. The typical license form does=20
> not include any intellectual property representations,=20
> warranties or indemnities in favor of the licensee; it=20
> contains a broad disclaimer of all warranties that benefits=20
> the licensor/contributors. Seeing in that there is no way for=20
> us to verify that the code that contributors are adding is=20
> there own, we may be opening up the district to legal actions=20
> should the software or portions there of are copyrighted and=20
> being used illegally or improperly. See attachment for more detail...
>=20
> 4) Security of the "system." Since in most cases, anyone can=20
> obtain a copy of the source code of the software (OPEN=20
> SOURCE), we are running the risk of a user being able to=20
> modify the software on the network and manipulated it in such=20
> a manor to produce undesired effects. Since we have to look=20
> out for the stability and security of the network, this was=20
> viewed as a possible security issue. Another security concern=20
> is the ability of virus introduction. Since the source code=20
> is open, anyone so inclined, could create a virus to exploit=20
> the software without much difficulty. This ability to=20
> introduce a virus or other malicious code to the system can=20
> have the effect of bringing the system "down"
> and possible data loss or corruption."
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> Also included in the email was information from the American=20
> Bar Association
> at: <http://www.abanet.org/intelprop/opensource.html>
>=20
> Any thoughts from you folks? Do they have any truly valid=20
> points? Perhaps a "Live CD" is my best (only?) option.
>=20
> Many thanks again,
> Frank Noschese
> John Jay High School
> Cross River, NY
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
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>=20

[Visualpython-users] Re: [Edu-sig] UPDATE: High School Network Security

[Jordan J. <jor...@cs...>]

Possible responses follow.

On Monday, May 16, 2005, at 11:00  AM, Frank Noschese wrote:
> 1) Lack of technical support from the 'vendor'. Since most open source 
> software
> is provided 'free' and is not maintained by a central vendor, 
> technical support
> is limited if not non existent. With this lack of technical support of 
> the
> software products in question, we have no way of getting help when the 
> software
> has a problem or is the cause of problems with the network.

"I am willing to accept the responsibility of being the local support 
provider for this software.  Among other sources of support, be aware 
of [list mailing lists and websites here]."

> 2) Product testing was another reason. Since there are so many 
> contributors to
> open source software, in many cases, the software is not tested for
> compatibility and stability. As such, there is no level of expectation 
> that the
> product will function as stated. Further more, with the limited 
> testing of the
> software, we have no idea of what problems or ill effects the software 
> may have
> on the computers and network.

"The functionality of many open source software, and Python in 
particular, is documented openly, and as such, errors are usually easy 
to find and then avoid.  It is worth noting that recent versions of 
Internet Explorer and Mac OS X have had serious security problems of 
their own; this problem is far from unique to open source."

> Seeing in that there is no way for us to verify that
> the code that contributors are adding is there own, we may be opening 
> up the
> district to legal actions should the software or portions there of are
> copyrighted and being used illegally or improperly.

"Usage of the software is, or should be, governed by our own Acceptable 
Use Policy.  Also, given that we are not redistributing the software or 
marketing a derivative work, we will be extremely unlikely to draw 
legal attention even if this software is found to contain infringing 
code.  Many major academic institutions (such as the University of 
North Carolina, Indiana University, and UC Berkeley) participate in the 
redistribution of Python and other open source software, which strongly 
suggests that their legal counsel does not find the practice risky or 
objectionable."

> 4) Security of the "system." Since in most cases, anyone can obtain a 
> copy of
> the source code of the software (OPEN SOURCE), we are running the risk 
> of a
> user being able to modify the software on the network and manipulated 
> it in
> such a manor to produce undesired effects. Since we have to look out 
> for the
> stability and security of the network, this was viewed as a possible 
> security
> issue. Another security concern is the ability of virus introduction. 
> Since the
> source code is open, anyone so inclined, could create a virus to 
> exploit the
> software without much difficulty. This ability to introduce a virus or 
> other
> malicious code to the system can have the effect of bringing the 
> system "down"
> and possible data loss or corruption."

Left as an exercise for the reader.  (A probably-unhelpful answer would 
involve something like, "If you're worried about a threat from this 
software, you have bigger problems." :>)

Cheers,
jmj (who did rather well fighting the IT bureaucracy at his own high 
school)

: Jordan Johnson - jorjohns @ cs . indiana . edu
: If I were a bug, I would want to be a true Renaissance bug.

Re: [Visualpython-users] UPDATE: High School Network Security

[Andrew D. <dou...@la...>]

On Mon, 16 May 2005, Frank Noschese wrote:

> Thanks to everyone that gave input to my Vpython installation roadblock. Like
> Arthur said, this is not a situation which will be fixed by a little
> "education."

I agree.  Although you'll need facts in hand, you'll probably also need a 
higher-up ally -- someone who has the authority to have the IT folks 
re-examine the issue.

Bear in mind that computer and network security are quite important, 
especially if student records are kept on the same network.  (Ideally, 
academic and administrative networks should be cleanly separated, but in 
practice I'll bet they often aren't.)  If a compromise of the computer 
network could result in the leaking of private student data, then network 
administrators indeed should be paranoid.

Nevertheless, the computer system is there to serve the educational 
mission of the school, not the other way around, so if there are strong 
educational reasons to install a particular software package, then that 
package deserves an honest test and evaluation based on it's individual 
importance, track record and performance under testing.  Of course, the 
tech department probably doesn't have enough staff to adequately do that, 
so it may prove difficult to get anything done in a timely fashion.

For the most part, the tech coordinator's reasons apply to both open 
source and non-open source software (I give details below).  I'd expect 
him or her to want to carefully test *any* software before installing it 
on the network, but if it passes that testing, I fail to see why it 
couldn't be used.

Hmm.  Would the tech coordinator be happier if you bought a version of 
Python from Activestate  ( http://www.activestate.com ) ? 

Here are some detailed thoughts, drawn in part from my long-time 
involvement in Open Source software:

>  I asked the tech coordinator to outline the reasons why installing
> open source is not in the school's best interest. Here is the reply:
 
> "In Reference to our ticket #313, there are a number of reasons why we (the
> technical team) decided that it would not be in keeping with the "best
> practices" of the district to install open source software on the districts
> computers and network. Four key reasons are as follows:

> 1) Lack of technical support from the 'vendor'.

True, there's no guaranteed technical support.  But that's not unique to 
Open Source software.  I have plenty of commercial software that has no 
technical support (for example, the company has gone bankrupt, or our 
support license expired, etc.)  Other software supposedly has commerical 
support, but it's worse than useless.  (By that, I mean you waste a lot of 
time only to run into a brick wall at the end anyway.)

There ought to be a way to get software installed "unsupported".  That is, 
the tech department would not be responsible for handling calls related to 
the use of the software.

> 2) Product testing was another reason. Since there are so many contributors to
> open source software, in many cases, the software is not tested for
> compatibility and stability. As such, there is no level of expectation that the
> product will function as stated. Further more, with the limited testing of the
> software, we have no idea of what problems or ill effects the software may have
> on the computers and network.

That's true for much commercial software as well, particularly the more 
specialized software used by particular academic disciplines.  I could 
cite numerous examples if needed.  All software installed on your school's 
network should be tested to make sure it works there.

> 3) Legal issues. According to the American Bar Association, Contributors do not
> vouch for the cleanliness of the code they contribute to the project; in fact,
> the opposite is true -- the standard open source license is designed to be very
> protective of the contributor. The typical license form does not include any
> intellectual property representations, warranties or indemnities in favor of
> the licensee; it contains a broad disclaimer of all warranties that benefits
> the licensor/contributors. Seeing in that there is no way for us to verify that
> the code that contributors are adding is there own, we may be opening up the
> district to legal actions should the software or portions there of are
> copyrighted and being used illegally or improperly. See attachment for more
> detail...

If this applies at all, it applies equally to both Open Source and 
proprietary software.  Most software comes with similarly broad 
disclaimers.  For example, both commercial and open source "vendors" had 
to deal with the issues surrounding the Unisys LZW compression patent.
End users such as school districts were not held responsible.

> 4) Security of the "system." Since in most cases, anyone can obtain a copy of
> the source code of the software (OPEN SOURCE), we are running the risk of a
> user being able to modify the software on the network and manipulated it in
> such a manor to produce undesired effects.

This is just wrong.  The copy on the network can't be modified unless it 
is installed improperly or the network is configured incorrectly.  
Whether or not a copy on the network can be modified is independent of 
whether or not the original product was open source.  If users are able to 
modify installed software, then all software installed on the network is 
at risk.  This has nothing to do with whether or not it is open source.

Security of a system is indeed an appropriate concern.  It is quite 
appropriate for the tech coordinator to evaluate the security risks of any 
software being installed on a network.  However, that evaluation should be 
based on the track record of the particular software as well as the 
relative importance of that particular software to the overall mission of 
the institution.  For example, many places still allow the use of 
Microsoft Outlook and Internet Explorer, judging that their usefulness 
outweighs the security issues.

>  Another security concern is the ability of virus introduction. Since the
> source code is open, anyone so inclined, could create a virus to exploit the
> software without much difficulty. This ability to introduce a virus or other
> malicious code to the system can have the effect of bringing the system "down"
> and possible data loss or corruption."

The phrase "without much difficulty" is not justified, and not probably 
applicable to Python.  Though this is a valid theoretical concern, it 
needs to be backed up by an actual examination of the particular software 
in mind. Judging from the incidences of actual viruses, it's probably much 
easier to infect Outlook Express or Internet Explorer than it is to infect 
Python.

In short, I think that the blanket rejection of open source software is 
based on false assumptions and is bad policy.  But it's also policy that 
it may be difficult (politically) for you to do anything about -- after 
all, you may have to work with these folks for years to come.

> Any thoughts from you folks? Do they have any truly valid points? Perhaps a
> "Live CD" is my best (only?) option.

I can't imagine that suddenly booting up a lab full of Linux workstations 
would go over much better with the tech coordinator :-).  I don't 
understand Windows installation issues enough to know if one could build 
an entire Python + Vpython tree on a CD and just run that, but that's 
probably the direction I would head first.

-- 
    Andy Dougherty		dou...@la...
    Dept. of Physics
    Lafayette College, Easton PA 18042

Re: [Visualpython-users] UPDATE: High School Network Security

[Gary <pa...@in...>]

>
>Any thoughts from you folks? Do they have any truly valid points? Perhaps a
>"Live CD" is my best (only?) option.  How is this created?
>  
>
Not trivial, but not impossible.  I'm assuming that there is no current 
live CD that includes vpython.  I'm not aware of any, but that's about 
to change (see below).

The issue is that you can't install new software in the same way that 
you do on a hard drive installation.  You can't write to the live CD 
file system.  So new software has to  be installed somewhere else ... a 
flash drive, or an external USB hard drive or something.  In any case it 
means installing in a non-standard location.  That means a certain 
amount of education, work, and tweaking.  In the case of vpython (and 
any other python package) it might be straightforward since it is fairly 
easy to maintain a local site-packages directory.   (Assumes all the 
other requirements are met).

Better:  vpython is scheduled to be included in the next version of 
Quantian  ( http://www.quantian.org ) 

Quantian includes just about every piece of scientific software that you 
could ever want or even imagine.

-gary

Re: [Visualpython-users] UPDATE: High School Network Security

[Gary <pa...@in...>]

Bruce Sherwood wrote:

> Frank Noschese wrote:
>
>> Hello again,
>>
>> Thanks to everyone that gave input to my Vpython installation 
>> roadblock. Like
>> Arthur said, this is not a situation which will be fixed by a little
>> "education." I asked the tech coordinator to outline the reasons why 
>> installing
>> open source is not in the school's best interest. Here is the reply:
>>
>> =======
>> "In Reference to our ticket #313, there are a number of reasons why 
>> we (the
>> technical team) decided that it would not be in keeping with the "best
>> practices" of the district to install open source software on the 
>> districts
>> computers and network. Four key reasons are as follows:
>>
>> 1) Lack of technical support from the 'vendor'. Since most open 
>> source software
>> is provided 'free' and is not maintained by a central vendor, 
>> technical support
>> is limited if not non existent. With this lack of technical support 
>> of the
>> software products in question, we have no way of getting help when 
>> the software
>> has a problem or is the cause of problems with the network.
>
>
> Technical support of commercial products is often rather poor. Given 
> the large community of collaborators on large open source projects 
> such as Python, it is possible that effective technical support may be 
> better, not poorer. 

Oh yes.  Case in point:  I used to use Mathcad (ten years ago ... things 
are probably different there now).  Most of my calls to tech support 
were answered with "You can't" or "That's just the way it works".  If I 
"call tech support"  for vpython or scipy or matplotlib, chances are 
that 1.) I'll get an answer  2.) If it's a bug it will get fixed within 
days if not minutes 3.) If it's a new feature it might show up in days 
if not minutes.

But everyone reading this already knows all that ...

Re: [Visualpython-users] EPS output with gl2ps

[Thomas P. <tho...@in...>]

Hiho,
ok, here are two examples:
http://www10.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~pohlt/vpython/

Remark: The PDF versions slightly differe from the screenshot
since they have been created separately.

As you can see (also from the file sizes ;-/), it's
not just a wrapped bitmap file but real vector graphics.
The EPS/PDF output can be tuned by lots of parameters
in gl2ps. I haven't had the time to find the optimal
values, but the results look pretty usable for me.

Tomorrow, I will also put the diff files online, since
some people seem to be interested in this feature.

Cheers,
Tom

Jonathan Brandmeyer wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 13:18 +0200, Thomas Pohl wrote:
> 
>>Hi folks,
>>first of all: thanks a lot for this great tool!
>>
>>What I was missing most was an EPS output, so I
>>I just added a screenshot feature to vpython using
>>gl2ps ( http://www.geuz.org/gl2ps/ ). Are you interested
>>in the changes? Should I send some diff files to the
>>current cvs?
> 
> 
> Can you post a link to some examples showing the PS output and a plain
> screenshot of the VPython window for comparison?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 

-- 
Thomas Pohl, Lehrstuhl fuer Informatik X (Systemsimulation),
Universitaet Erlangen, Cauerstr. 6, D-91058 Erlangen, Germany
phone: +49(0)9131 85-28687           fax: +49(0)9131 85-28928
url: http://www10.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~pohlt/

[Visualpython-users] VPython on Tiger (zoom and spin)

[<sb...@ma...>]

Thanks a lot for the hits to install VP on Tiger. It works fine.

Everything is working but apperently the zoom (shift key + mouse)
and the spin (control key + mouse) don't work

Any idea?

Many thanks


Luca

PS
Dear Frank,
are these guys real? Are they sprouting directly from Redmond?

Best wishes
________________________
Dr Luca Sbano
Mathematics Institute
University of Warwick
CV4 7AL Coventry U.K.
________________________

[Visualpython-users] RE: [Edu-sig] UPDATE: High School Network Security

[Kirby U. <ur...@qw...>]

> Any thoughts from you folks? Do they have any truly valid points? 
> Perhaps a "Live CD" is my best (only?) option.
> 
> Many thanks again,
> Frank Noschese
> John Jay High School
> Cross River, NY

Maybe the policy should stay as is.  

We in Oregon like the competitive advantage this sets up.  Having New York
shoot itself in the foot, and be righteous about it (even citing Bar
Association stuff -- sheesh), is a happy development.  

If, as an individual teacher, you get tired of these working conditions,
consider moving.  We're less of a slave ship out here.  And by the looks of
it, we treat our kids better too.

Kirby

[Visualpython-users] UPDATE: High School Network Security

[Frank N. <fra...@sb...>]

Hello again,

Thanks to everyone that gave input to my Vpython installation roadblock. Like
Arthur said, this is not a situation which will be fixed by a little
"education." I asked the tech coordinator to outline the reasons why installing
open source is not in the school's best interest. Here is the reply:

=======
"In Reference to our ticket #313, there are a number of reasons why we (the
technical team) decided that it would not be in keeping with the "best
practices" of the district to install open source software on the districts
computers and network. Four key reasons are as follows:

1) Lack of technical support from the 'vendor'. Since most open source software
is provided 'free' and is not maintained by a central vendor, technical support
is limited if not non existent. With this lack of technical support of the
software products in question, we have no way of getting help when the software
has a problem or is the cause of problems with the network.

2) Product testing was another reason. Since there are so many contributors to
open source software, in many cases, the software is not tested for
compatibility and stability. As such, there is no level of expectation that the
product will function as stated. Further more, with the limited testing of the
software, we have no idea of what problems or ill effects the software may have
on the computers and network.

3) Legal issues. According to the American Bar Association, Contributors do not
vouch for the cleanliness of the code they contribute to the project; in fact,
the opposite is true -- the standard open source license is designed to be very
protective of the contributor. The typical license form does not include any
intellectual property representations, warranties or indemnities in favor of
the licensee; it contains a broad disclaimer of all warranties that benefits
the licensor/contributors. Seeing in that there is no way for us to verify that
the code that contributors are adding is there own, we may be opening up the
district to legal actions should the software or portions there of are
copyrighted and being used illegally or improperly. See attachment for more
detail...

4) Security of the "system." Since in most cases, anyone can obtain a copy of
the source code of the software (OPEN SOURCE), we are running the risk of a
user being able to modify the software on the network and manipulated it in
such a manor to produce undesired effects. Since we have to look out for the
stability and security of the network, this was viewed as a possible security
issue. Another security concern is the ability of virus introduction. Since the
source code is open, anyone so inclined, could create a virus to exploit the
software without much difficulty. This ability to introduce a virus or other
malicious code to the system can have the effect of bringing the system "down"
and possible data loss or corruption."
===========

Also included in the email was information from the American Bar Association
at: <http://www.abanet.org/intelprop/opensource.html>

Any thoughts from you folks? Do they have any truly valid points? Perhaps a
"Live CD" is my best (only?) option.

Many thanks again,
Frank Noschese
John Jay High School
Cross River, NY

[Visualpython-users] ESC to exit a program

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

On vpython.org for Python 2.3/2.4 on Windows, version 3.2.2 restores a 
feature that's been missing for many months: Pressing ESC exits a 
running VPython program. This is particularly important if you use 
full-screen mode (scene.fullscreen = 1).

This feature has never worked on Linux/Unix/Mac using the X11 windowing 
system. Jonathan Brandmeyer points out that the code is in place for it, 
but somehow in full-screen mode we lose window focus, and NO keyboard 
input is accepted, including ESC. Perhaps an X11 expert could advise us 
on what we're doing wrong?

Bruce Sherwood

Re: [Visualpython-users] Re: [Edu-sig] UPDATE: High School Network Security

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

My posting crossed Laura Creighton's in the mail, and I'm struck by how 
very similar our responses were to all the issues. Doesn't guarantee 
that either of us is right, but we might be.

Bruce Sherwood