tuxkart-devel — TuxKart Developers.

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Player's position icons [patch]

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Ricardo Cruz wrote:

>  Steven, may I get CVS access? My sourceforge nickname is rmcruz . Thx!

Sure - Welcome to the project!

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Player's position icons [patch]

[Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...>]

Em Domingo, 22 de Agosto de 2004 14:24, o Ingo Ruhnke escreveu:
> James Gregory <jam...@bt...> writes:
> > The whole mid-race HUD needs quite some work, hence I think why
> > noone has yet put your patch in. I agree your patch makes it look
> > better, but if the whole thing is going to be changed round there's
> > not much point applying a minor patch to it.
>
> Applied the patch. Yes, the HUD needs a complete rework, but after all
> we have to start somewhere and this patch is a good start :)

 Thanks. I also agree that the In-game UI needs to be re-worked.
 By the way, I've just noticed that there is a page in the wiki that has some 
information about how the UI should look like:
http://netpanzer.berlios.de/tuxkart/index.php/User Interface

 In the following days, I'll work to make the UI looking like that one on the 
wiki page.

 Steven, may I get CVS access? My sourceforge nickname is rmcruz . Thx!

Cheers,
 Ricardo
-- 
A private sin is not so prejudicial in the world as a public indecency.
		-- Miguel de Cervantes

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Player's position icons [patch]

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

James Gregory <jam...@bt...> writes:

> The whole mid-race HUD needs quite some work, hence I think why
> noone has yet put your patch in. I agree your patch makes it look
> better, but if the whole thing is going to be changed round there's
> not much point applying a minor patch to it.

Applied the patch. Yes, the HUD needs a complete rework, but after all
we have to start somewhere and this patch is a good start :)

-- 
WWW:      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ 
JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Player's position icons [patch]

[<jam...@bt...>]

 --- Ricardo Cruz <ri...@ae...> wrote: 
> 
>  In case I didn't make myself clear, here what I
> mean:
> 
> http://rpmcruz.planetaclix.pt/trash/tuxkart.png
> 
>  The position of the player against the others
> should be indicated in the map, 
> just like any other racing game.
> 
>  And please replace, in the patch, 400 by 360, so
> that it doesn't get over the 
> bonus image.

The whole mid-race HUD needs quite some work, hence I
think why noone has yet put your patch in. I agree
your patch makes it look better, but if the whole
thing is going to be changed round there's not much
point
applying a minor patch to it.

        James

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Player's position icons [patch]

[Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...>]

 In case I didn't make myself clear, here what I mean:

http://rpmcruz.planetaclix.pt/trash/tuxkart.png

 The position of the player against the others should be indicated in the m=
ap,=20
just like any other racing game.

 And please replace, in the patch, 400 by 360, so that it doesn't get over =
the=20
bonus image.

Cheers,
 Ricardo

Em S=E1bado, 21 de Agosto de 2004 16:58, o Ricardo Cruz escreveu:
> Hey there,
>
>  I don't like those icons on the bottom showing player's positions. I'd
> prefer to have player's positions on the left, and, in the map, a square
> showing karts position, having the player a different square color,
> obviously.
>
>  This patch makes karts position icons being displayed in the left. If you
> like it, I could try to make the map thing, though I don't know the code.
>
> Cheers,
>  Ricardo

=2D-=20
A team effort is a lot of people doing what I say.
		-- Michael Winner, British film director

[TuxKart-devel] Re: [Tuxkart-cvs] tuxkart/src WidgetSet.cxx,1.8,1.9

[<jam...@bt...>]

On Sun, 2004-08-22 at 06:51,
tux...@li...
wrote:
> Update of /cvsroot/tuxkart/tuxkart/src
> In directory
sc8-pr-cvs1.sourceforge.net:/tmp/cvs-serv23256/src
> 
> Modified Files:
>       WidgetSet.cxx 
> Log Message:
> %1
> 
> Index: WidgetSet.cxx
>
===================================================================
> RCS file:
/cvsroot/tuxkart/tuxkart/src/WidgetSet.cxx,v
> retrieving revision 1.8
> retrieving revision 1.9
> diff -u -d -r1.8 -r1.9
> --- WidgetSet.cxx     20 Aug 2004 19:28:25 -0000    
 1.8
> +++ WidgetSet.cxx     22 Aug 2004 05:51:45 -0000    
 1.9
> @@ -1503,14 +1503,14 @@
>  
>      /* Find a new active widget in the direction of
joystick motion. */
>  
> -    if (x && -JOY_MID <= x && x <= +JOY_MID)
> +    if (!x && -JOY_MID <= x && x <= +JOY_MID)
>          xflag = 1;
>
> (and in the next commit:)
>
> -    if (!x && -JOY_MID <= x && x <= +JOY_MID)
> +    if (!x || -JOY_MID <= x && x <= +JOY_MID)


The reason that it originally checked to make sure x
was true is that a
value of 0 for an axis doesn't mean "stick is
central", rather it means
"the motion event was not in this axis".

See sdldrv.cxx:

int x = 0;
int y = 0;
                        
if (event.jaxis.axis == 0)
        x = event.jaxis.value;
else if (event.jaxis.axis == 1)
        y = event.jaxis.value;
if (gui)
        gui -> stick ( x,  y );

N.B. even a value of 0 did mean "stick is central"
then testing for !x
would still be pointless, as unless you have some very
crazy constants
when x == 0 then -JOY_MID <= x && x <= +JOY_MID will
always be true. 

        James

[TuxKart-devel] Player's position icons [patch]

[Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...>]

Hey there,

 I don't like those icons on the bottom showing player's positions. I'd prefer 
to have player's positions on the left, and, in the map, a square showing 
karts position, having the player a different square color, obviously.

 This patch makes karts position icons being displayed in the left. If you 
like it, I could try to make the map thing, though I don't know the code.

Cheers,
 Ricardo
-- 
I'd be a poorer man if I'd never seen an eagle fly.
		-- John Denver

[I saw an eagle fly once.  Fortunately, I had my eagle fly swatter handy.  
Ed.]

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Tuxkart crash

[Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...>]

Em S=E1bado, 21 de Agosto de 2004 00:53, o Caleb Sawtell escreveu:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:01:53 +0100, Ricardo Cruz <ri...@ae...> wrote:
> > Em S=E1bado, 14 de Agosto de 2004 15:14, o Charles Goodwin escreveu:
> > > On Sat, 2004-08-14 at 12:47 +0200, Ingo Ruhnke wrote:
> > > > The skidmarks currently just grow and grow all the time, so yep, if
> > > > you do a lots of laps you will reach a point where it will get quite
> > > > slow, especially with multiple vehicles, this should however change
> > > > as soon as we start placing skidmarks only when you skid and not all
> > > > the time. Expiring skidmarks might also help, even so this might not
> > > > really be necesarry.
> > >
> > > Regardless, I think skidmarks should be optional, and optionally
> > > expire. Don't forget the users with crap hardware - they need a 'back
> > > to basics' graphics mode or a compromise inbetween.
>
> the skid makrs should also be more realistic cause you would not skid
> on a little turn would you?
>
 They should also be graphically more realistic. They should look more like=
 a=20
piece of burned wheel, rather than just a transparent color. Using a textur=
e=20
might help a lot.
 Also make it starting right below the wheel. Just making the marks startin=
g a=20
few pixels before will do the trick.

Cheers,
 Ricardo

> >  What about adding an option to lower the quality of the graphics.
> > Something like: Graphical quality: Low/Medium/High.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >  Ricardo
> >
> > --
> > Q:      How many gradual (sorry, that's supposed to be "graduate")
> > students does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
> > A:      "I'm afraid we don't know, but make my stipend tax-free, give my
> >         advisor a $30,000 grant of the taxpayer's money, and I'm sure he
> >         can tell me how to do the shit work for him so he can take the
> >         credit for answering this incredibly vital question."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
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> > Tux...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxkart-devel
>
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=2D-=20
You own a dog, but you can only feed a cat.

Re: [TuxKart-devel] cvs access, revisited. or add 1-3 developers to your GOTM size

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

r. mutt wrote:
> let's try this again
> helo steve baker,
> i would like to contribute to tuxkart

Hi!  Sorry about the screwup - welcome to the team!

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Performance issues

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Ingo Ruhnke wrote:

> Doing the math, we need around 1 million polygons per second in this
> setup, advertisement tells me that even a Geforce256 should be able to
> render 10 million polygons per second.

That's benchmark numbers.

That's 10 million *perfectly* tri-stripped polygons with minimal additional
data (ie no normals, no texture coords) - with the CPU doing nothing else
but feeding the polygons into the hardware - no texture map switching,
no switching of rendering modes, etc, etc.  It also assumes that you've
used some nVidia-specific extensions and insider information associated
with the size of the data blocks that end up going over AGP.

> Is Tuxkart doing something seriously wrong when it comes to rendering
> or am I simply expecting to much from the rendering hardware and we
> need to fall back to much simpler models and tracks? Using LOD for the
> karts will of course help too, however it will quite seriously
> increase the time needed to finish the kart models, so I would prefer
> to avoid it.

LOD is a huge help.

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Tuxkart crash

[Caleb S. <gam...@gm...>]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:01:53 +0100, Ricardo Cruz <ri...@ae...> wrote:
> Em S=E1bado, 14 de Agosto de 2004 15:14, o Charles Goodwin escreveu:
> > On Sat, 2004-08-14 at 12:47 +0200, Ingo Ruhnke wrote:
> > > The skidmarks currently just grow and grow all the time, so yep, if
> > > you do a lots of laps you will reach a point where it will get quite
> > > slow, especially with multiple vehicles, this should however change a=
s
> > > soon as we start placing skidmarks only when you skid and not all the
> > > time. Expiring skidmarks might also help, even so this might not
> > > really be necesarry.
> >
> > Regardless, I think skidmarks should be optional, and optionally expire=
.
> > Don't forget the users with crap hardware - they need a 'back to basics=
'
> > graphics mode or a compromise inbetween.

the skid makrs should also be more realistic cause you would not skid
on a little turn would you?

>=20
>  What about adding an option to lower the quality of the graphics. Someth=
ing
> like: Graphical quality: Low/Medium/High.
>=20
> Cheers,
>  Ricardo
>=20
> --
> Q:      How many gradual (sorry, that's supposed to be "graduate") studen=
ts
>         does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
> A:      "I'm afraid we don't know, but make my stipend tax-free, give my
>         advisor a $30,000 grant of the taxpayer's money, and I'm sure he
>         can tell me how to do the shit work for him so he can take the
>         credit for answering this incredibly vital question."
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> SF.Net email is sponsored by Shop4tech.com-Lowest price on Blank Media
> 100pk Sonic DVD-R 4x for only $29 -100pk Sonic DVD+R for only $33
> Save 50% off Retail on Ink & Toner - Free Shipping and Free Gift.
> http://www.shop4tech.com/z/Inkjet_Cartridges/9_108_r285
> _______________________________________________
> Tuxkart-devel mailing list
> Tux...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxkart-devel
>

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Performance issues

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

Ingo Ruhnke <gr...@gm...> writes:

> Any other suggestion on how to fix these performance issues?

I have now tried the plib VBO 'patch' found at:

http://fgfs.narod.ru/ssg.zip

It was a little cumbersome to get working and seems to have some bugs,
however the performance improved by factor two.

With VBO:
RaceTrack + 10 * Tux:   20fps
RaceTrack + 10 * Penny: 40fps

Without VBO:
RaceTrack + 10 * Tux:   10fps
RaceTrack + 10 * Penny: 20fps

While this is already a pretty good improvment, I am still not really
satisfied with just 40fps on an extremly simple track, on more
complicated, while still rather simple tracks (Around the lighthouse),
the performance is already down to 20fps, which is not really
acceptable. Not really sure if LOD can help here, since at start,
everybody is pretty close together.

-- 
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JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

[TuxKart-devel] cvs access, revisited. or add 1-3 developers to your GOTM size

[r. m. <anj...@ya...>]

let's try this again
helo steve baker,
i would like to contribute to tuxkart

sourceforge account: oaf_thadres

thanks,



		
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[TuxKart-devel] Performance issues

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

I now produced a penny-kart with 1100 polys, which is basically as low
as you can get when the model should still look reasonably good when
looking at it in-game. However even if I use that model for all karts
and remove skidmarks and particle effects and use a simple 2000 poly
track the game still slows down quite a bit if all ten karts are in
the view, which happens for example when you start. This slow down
happens here on a 1Ghz Athlon with GeForce5200FX at 800x600.

Doing the math, we need around 1 million polygons per second in this
setup, advertisement tells me that even a Geforce256 should be able to
render 10 million polygons per second.

Is Tuxkart doing something seriously wrong when it comes to rendering
or am I simply expecting to much from the rendering hardware and we
need to fall back to much simpler models and tracks? Using LOD for the
karts will of course help too, however it will quite seriously
increase the time needed to finish the kart models, so I would prefer
to avoid it.

Another 'solution' might be to just limit the framerate, so that the
slowdowns are much less noticeable, however that doesn't really sound
much good either.

Any other suggestion on how to fix these performance issues?

PS: Could someone look into the code and figure out why the models in
the character select are flat shaded?

-- 
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JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

Re: [TuxKart-devel] cvs access

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

r. mutt wrote:
> so that would be a "no you can't have" for the cvs
> access?

Eh?  No - I havn't turned anyone down.  Did I miss an
email or something?

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

Re: [TuxKart-devel] cvs access

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

Or more likely, I don't think Steve has checked his mail recently.

On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 23:28 -0700, r. mutt wrote:
> so that would be a "no you can't have" for the cvs access?
-- 
- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>
Online @ www.charlietech.com

[TuxKart-devel] cvs access

[r. m. <anj...@ya...>]

so that would be a "no you can't have" for the cvs
access?





		
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[TuxKart-devel] timetrial mode diff

[r. m. <anj...@ya...>]

selecting timetrial from the gamemode menu
goes to the character selection screen
before the track selection screen
and then starts the game w/ no ai karts


		
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[TuxKart-devel] cvs access please

[r. m. <anj...@ya...>]

sourceforge account: oaf_thadres
thanks,


		
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[TuxKart-devel] Turning when while lagging

[Pascal G. <pa...@gu...>]

Good job! It's now fully playable even when lagging!

Even at 15fps, i get to turn and i can't do incredibly long and high jumps
anymore ;)

The incomplete parts, i notice the more now, are:
- all parts of the track have the same coefficient of friction, i mean, you
can go as fast on grass than on asphalt.
- floating skidrows, i can jump and burn "the air"
- the AI

-Pascal
--
Projet MoviXMaker (http://sv.gnu.org/projects/movixmaker)
Projet [e]MoviX[2] (http://movix.sf.net) 
Debian Project (http://www.debian.org)
TuxKart (Wiki (GOTM): http://netpanzer.berlios.de/tuxkart/index.php)

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Input/simulation seperation

[<jam...@bt...>]

Ingo Ruhnke <gr...@gm...> wrote:
James Gregory writes:

>> Log Message: - moved PlayerKartDriver out of the Driver-hierachy, to
>> seperate input from the actual simulation, will do the same with
>> AutoDriver stuff
> 
> The input stuff already is seperate from the simulation, its in
> sdldrv.cxx in a function called kartInput(). The one exception is the
> cheat code for infinite ammo. I left this in player kart driver
> because that's where it was originally and I decided to leave it where
> it was in case this had been done for a good reason that had passed me
> by.

Basically I want to have the KartDriver 'AI' plugable, so that I can
switch from a PlayerKartDriver to a AutoKartDriver at any time, will
be necesarry if we for example want to display race times after the
finished race as on overlay about the kart driving around the course,
ie. MarioKart-like. The joystick/keyboard stuff itself isn't affected
by that.

BTW. Speaking about joystick/keyboard input, that might need a bit
cleanup as well, currently incomingJoystick() and incomingKeyboard()
are quite far away from each other in the source, while they are
actually quite closly related.


Again, the only thing incomingKeyboard() is used for is a single cheat code. Either:

a) Add a "cheat enabled" bool to the joystick struct and treat it as joystick input

or

b) just delete it

    James

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Input/simulation seperation

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

James Gregory <jam...@bt...> writes:

>> Log Message: - moved PlayerKartDriver out of the Driver-hierachy, to
>> seperate input from the actual simulation, will do the same with
>> AutoDriver stuff
>  
> The input stuff already is seperate from the simulation, its in
> sdldrv.cxx in a function called kartInput(). The one exception is the
> cheat code for infinite ammo. I left this in player kart driver
> because that's where it was originally and I decided to leave it where
> it was in case this had been done for a good reason that had passed me
> by.

Basically I want to have the KartDriver 'AI' plugable, so that I can
switch from a PlayerKartDriver to a AutoKartDriver at any time, will
be necesarry if we for example want to display race times after the
finished race as on overlay about the kart driving around the course,
ie. MarioKart-like. The joystick/keyboard stuff itself isn't affected
by that.

BTW. Speaking about joystick/keyboard input, that might need a bit
cleanup as well, currently incomingJoystick() and incomingKeyboard()
are quite far away from each other in the source, while they are
actually quite closly related.

-- 
WWW:      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ 
JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

[TuxKart-devel] Input/simulation seperation

[<jam...@bt...>]

> Log Message:
> - moved PlayerKartDriver out of the Driver-hierachy, to seperate input 
> from the actual simulation, will do the same with AutoDriver stuff
 
The input stuff already is seperate from the simulation, its in sdldrv.cxx in a function called kartInput(). The one exception is the cheat code for infinite ammo. I left this in player kart driver because that's where it was originally and I decided to leave it where it was in case this had been done for a good reason that had passed me by.
 
Index: RaceGUI.cxx
===================================================================
      	
((PlayerKartDriver*)World::current()->kart[0])->incomingKeystroke ( key ) ;
+          // FIXME: '0' alone can't be correct, can it?
+          PlayerDriver* driver = World::current()->kart [ 0 
]->getDriver();

As it only affects the infinite ammo cheat it doesn't really matter.
 
I would have thought the easiest solution would be to move the infinite ammo cheat into the kartInput() function, or maybe take it out altogether, rather than removing the driver hierarchy.
 
   James
 

Re: [TuxKart-devel] TuxKart Won't Compile On PPC

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

jo...@bv... writes:

> I am trying 'make' tuxkart,
> Mandrake on a PowerBook,
> this is what it says:
>
> g++ -DPACKAGE=\"tuxkart\" -DVERSION=\"0.4.0\" -DHAVE_LIBGL=1 
> -DSTDC_HEADERS=1 -DHAVE_GL_GL_H=1 -DLINUX_JOYSTICK_IS_PRESENT=1 
> -DTUXKART_DATADIR=\"/chez/joel/share/games/tuxkart\"  -I. -I.   
> -I/usr/local/include  -g -O2 -O6 -Wall -c -o gfx.o `test -f gfx.cxx || 
> echo './'`gfx.cxx
> gfx.cxx:7:20: sys/io.h: No such file or directory
> gfx.cxx:8:81: sys/perm.h: No such file or directory
>
> glibc is properly installed and ./configure worked
> without error.  Apparently, this file is supposed
> to not exist on ppc.  
>
> What should I do to get it working?

Hide the includes:

#include <sys/io.h>
#include <sys/perm.h>                                                           

in gfx.h behind '#ifndef UL_LINUX ... #endif' and see if it works
then, if it does, just send us a patch which you can get by "cvs diff -u".

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JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Tuxkart crash

[Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...>]

Em S=E1bado, 14 de Agosto de 2004 15:14, o Charles Goodwin escreveu:
> On Sat, 2004-08-14 at 12:47 +0200, Ingo Ruhnke wrote:
> > The skidmarks currently just grow and grow all the time, so yep, if
> > you do a lots of laps you will reach a point where it will get quite
> > slow, especially with multiple vehicles, this should however change as
> > soon as we start placing skidmarks only when you skid and not all the
> > time. Expiring skidmarks might also help, even so this might not
> > really be necesarry.
>
> Regardless, I think skidmarks should be optional, and optionally expire.
> Don't forget the users with crap hardware - they need a 'back to basics'
> graphics mode or a compromise inbetween.

 What about adding an option to lower the quality of the graphics. Somethin=
g=20
like: Graphical quality: Low/Medium/High.

Cheers,
 Ricardo

=2D-=20
Q:	How many gradual (sorry, that's supposed to be "graduate") students
	does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A:	"I'm afraid we don't know, but make my stipend tax-free, give my
	advisor a $30,000 grant of the taxpayer's money, and I'm sure he
	can tell me how to do the shit work for him so he can take the
	credit for answering this incredibly vital question."