tuxkart-devel Mailing List for Tux Kart (Page 24)
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-28 00:33:26
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Attached is my son's first effort at a BSOD kart. It needs lots of work yet and would need some animation effort to produce little electrical discharges from dangling cables, a spinning power supply fan, rotating wheels (possibly wobbly), and flashing LED's where appropriate. Comments? ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Ryan F. <rf...@gm...> - 2004-06-28 00:27:54
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:07:33 -0500, Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> wrote: > > A .blend loader is unrealistic I think, unless things changed > > recently.blend file format is still more or less a memory dump of > > internal Blender structures and not meant to be read by other apps. > > Ack. I didn't know that. So it probably changes over time too. > > OK - so no blender loader :-( > > > There his however a .xml based fileformat planed, but that isn't > > present in the current version. > > Could we contribute to that - or try to push the blender community > to get their act together? > > > A custom exporter is needed and > > shouldn't be too difficult to create in the long run, for the time > > being the standard .ac exporter seems to be enough. > > That's certainly my hope - but it's not my expectation. :-( > > There are an awful lot of things AC3D can't represent. No vertex > colours (which are useful for track design), no animation whatever > (useful for...well...everything really), no LOD control. > > I've kinda kludged around those things where I can - but it's not > a pretty sight! > > * I use the texture filename as a key to a 'material properties table' > that allows me to add per-texture data like friction and 'zipperness'. > > * I recognise comment fields in the AC3D file for some kinds of effects > such as objects that spin or slide in a repetitive manner, moving > texture (nice for water, lava, electrical sparks and arcs, etc). > > Dunno if comments can be entered in Blender - and I don't know whether > they survive being written to AC3D format intact. > > * Some effects (such as the spinning herring) are hard-coded into the game. Maybe some of these effects (that are in the comments) should be stored into separate config files, instead of loading a model straight up, load the config file which will include these comments, plus the path to the model. Also, since AC3D seems to be missing some useful features, is there any other format blender can export to that might suit our needs a lot better? -- Ryan |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-28 00:26:51
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Ricardo Cruz wrote: >>OK - gimme your sourceforge user name - you'll have CVS access and you can >>attack it. >> > > No need for that, I'll send a patch to the mailing list. No - I'd *prefer* that you committed it yourself. Adding other people's patches is a tedious chore I'd prefer to skip. > Would like to help > more, but my 3d knowledge are pretty limited. :( That's OK. The 3D graphics software is pretty much already there. Very little of a game like this is involved in that stuff anyway - it's all packed away in big libraries elsewhere. > chdir() doesn't sound very portable to start with. Tuxkart ALREADY runs on every OS I know of that supports OpenGL. That includes MacOSX (although there appears to be a window-opening problem with recent versions) - but also MacOS-9, Windows/MSVC, Windows/Cygwin, Linux, BSD (all flavors), Solaris, IRIX and even AmigaOS. I believe someone once got it working under BeOS too - but I never did get the patches necessary to do that. ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-28 00:19:54
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pmb wrote: > Maybe Tcp/Ip multiplayer would be cool. I could do that. We said we'd only add that "if someone comes along who passionately wants to do it"...so maybe that just happened! Do you really think TCP is the right way? I generally use UDP because it's faster and has MUCH lower latency. In UDP, if you lose a packet, it just ignores the loss - which for a racing game is fine because another packet is already on it's way. You just have to be careful about bonuses and any permenantly changed track or character elements. In TCP, packets are acknowledged, error checked and resent if missing. This is OK - but in a game like this, by the time a missing data packet has been flagged as missing, re-requested, and re-transmitted...another packet reflecting a later point in time has already been sent. ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-28 00:15:16
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Ricardo Cruz wrote: > Here goes my 2 cents. A few thoughts about the game. > > Maluses suggestions: > - slow down > - inverse right-left controls Slow down is already handled. If you accidentally 'eat' a green herring, you'll see your kart gets either a parachute or an anvil tied to it...which slows you down for a few seconds - unless you can hit a 'zipper' or use a 'zipper' collectable to speed you up again. Inverse left/right...ooohhh! Good idea! > I think that the maluses should be applied right away, while the bonuses only > when the player wants. Both are temporary. Yep. That's how the game works right now. ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-28 00:12:23
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pmb wrote: > Hello everybody, I just subscribed to the mailing list as I'm > interrested in the developpement of TuxKart. Cool! Welcome! > However I don't know the current state of the project and would like to > contribute, but I dont know where to start. I know C, but i'm not expert. TuxKart is written in C++ - but I don't use many of the more esoteric features - so you should be reasonably at home. The current state is that the game runs, is playable and gets reasonably good reviews - but it needs to be kicked into high gear - better art, more art, more features, slicker user interfaces...that kind of thing. > I dont know much about 3D programming but i'm interrested to investigate > this. This is about one of the first big project I contribute, I was > wondering if there is some small ToDo's that nobody have the time for ? Actually, 3D programming is the least of everything we have to do. However, GoKart physics, AI for the enemy players...how about that? If that's too advanced for you, you could work on the startup GUI stuff, the high score table...that kind of thing maybe? Perhaps you have latent artistic talents, we'll need lots more 3D models, 2D splash screens...icons, texture maps. How about sound effects and/or music? Perhaps it would help to know your background. What have you programmed before? ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...> - 2004-06-28 00:11:28
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Sorry for this mail. Damn KMail sent this stuff that was in queue, after I sent a mail... This is just a list that I am putting together of possible bonuses/maluses... Ricardo Em Domingo, 27 de Junho de 2004 22:07, escreveu: > Hey there, > > Here goes my 2 cents. A few thoughts about the game. > > Maluses suggestions: > - slow down > - inverse right-left controls > - > > Bonus suggestions: > > - slow down > - > > I think that the maluses should be applied right away, while the bonuses > only when the player wants. Both are temporary. -- Possessions increase to fill the space available for their storage. -- Ryan |
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From: Ryan F. <rf...@gm...> - 2004-06-28 00:11:23
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:49:17 -0500, Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> wrote: > Yeah - OK. Let me know when you need it - it only takes me 30 seconds > to turn it on - but it's probably not a good idea to give away commit > privilage unnecessarily. Yep, that's what I was thinking. -- Ryan |
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From: Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...> - 2004-06-28 00:09:33
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Em Domingo, 27 de Junho de 2004 22:20, o=20 tux...@li... escreveu: > Content-Type=3Dmessage/rfc822 > Content-Description=3Dembedded message > Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 16:20:55 -0500 > From: Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> > To: =A0t...@li... > Subject: Re: [TuxKart-devel] Location sysem > Reply-To: tux...@li... > > Ricardo Cruz wrote: > > =A0I noticed that TuxKart doesn't make a very smart checking where it is > > placed. Just looks at local dir, up dir and system chunk (/usr). > > If you 'make install', it should work out where it is OK...but you're > right, it could be better. > Personally, I am a MacOSX kinda of guys. Just extract stuff and run=20 executables from there. :) > > =A0Smarter location checking would be: > > - asking proc for the binary directory; > > - look at the way the binary was executed - won't be able to get the > > location for symlinks. > > OK - gimme your sourceforge user name - you'll have CVS access and you can > attack it. > No need for that, I'll send a patch to the mailing list. Would like to hel= p=20 more, but my 3d knowledge are pretty limited. :( Anyway, you might have to wait a week, since I have a couple of exams on t= his=20 one. :( > > =A0By the way, using chdir() is kinda of ugly. What about having a glob= al > > string? > > It's a LOT easier that way - no more messing around strcat'ing strings - > all the files are always in the exact same place once you've chdir'ed to > the right directory. > The code is in C++, right? You would just need to type: load_map(datadir + "track1.ac"); being datadir the string that has that info... > Why do you think it's ugly? > chdir() doesn't sound very portable to start with. Besides, when using getcwd() in my system, I get a warning, so I get a bit= =20 creepy about those commands. > > =A0Best fix, however, would be to make Linux file manager to execute > > binaries from their own dir. > > Hmmm - that's pretty controversial. Well, MacOSX, a unix system, also behaves the way I described. I've mailed David Faure (a guru from kde), a couple of years ago, and his= =20 answer was that some commands might use the current working directory to=20 output trash to. I think that such commands should be changed and not make= =20 the Linux desktop system to be obsolete. I've recently, started a discussion at kde-apps.org about this. Hope I can= =20 convince them to change that behavior. :) Cheers, Ricardo =2D-=20 Nobody wants constructive criticism. It's all we can do to put up with constructive praise. |
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From: Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...> - 2004-06-28 00:09:31
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Hey there, Here goes my 2 cents. A few thoughts about the game. Maluses suggestions: - slow down - inverse right-left controls - Bonus suggestions: - slow down - I think that the maluses should be applied right away, while the bonuses only when the player wants. Both are temporary. -- With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm |
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From: pmb <phi...@vi...> - 2004-06-28 00:07:26
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pmb wrote: > Hello everybody, I just subscribed to the mailing list as I'm > interrested in the developpement of TuxKart. > > However I don't know the current state of the project and would like > to contribute, but I dont know where to start. I know C, but i'm not > expert. > > I dont know much about 3D programming but i'm interrested to > investigate this. This is about one of the first big project I > contribute, I was wondering if there is some small ToDo's that nobody > have the time for ? > > thanx :) > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training. > Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 - digital > self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches, unmatched > networking opportunities. Visit www.blackhat.com > _______________________________________________ > Tuxkart-devel mailing list > Tux...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxkart-devel > Maybe Tcp/Ip multiplayer would be cool. I could do that. |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-28 00:06:32
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Ingo Ruhnke wrote: > I don't have experience with ODE and it seems pretty nice for boxes > that bounce around and such. However for Tuxkart I think all we need > is basically a 2D physics model, I don't want to see Karts crashing > realistically and go upside down and such, I want the Kart to stay > flat on the ground and allow nice drifts in the curves and I am not > sure how difficult it would be to get this drifting right with ODE. 2D definitely won't work - we need ramps and jumps and banked tracks, you can't do that in 2D. If you want to simulate drift, you *need* banked tracks on some of the courses. I'm suprised you don't like the idea of being able to go upside-down. There are some really neat effects like that in some other Kart games. > Beside the lack of drift and some lack of precision in the collision > detection (easy to push other players through a wall) the current > physics seem already be quite useable. They are *very* crude...we aren't talking a small change here. If it's not ODE, it's still a pretty big change. >>It's not clear whether we have to improve TuxKart's handling of '.ac', improve >>Blender's exporter, or write an entire new '.blend' loader for AC3D. Comments >>please? > > > A .blend loader is unrealistic I think, unless things changed > recently.blend file format is still more or less a memory dump of > internal Blender structures and not meant to be read by other apps. Ack. I didn't know that. So it probably changes over time too. OK - so no blender loader :-( > There his however a .xml based fileformat planed, but that isn't > present in the current version. Could we contribute to that - or try to push the blender community to get their act together? > A custom exporter is needed and > shouldn't be too difficult to create in the long run, for the time > being the standard .ac exporter seems to be enough. That's certainly my hope - but it's not my expectation. :-( There are an awful lot of things AC3D can't represent. No vertex colours (which are useful for track design), no animation whatever (useful for...well...everything really), no LOD control. I've kinda kludged around those things where I can - but it's not a pretty sight! * I use the texture filename as a key to a 'material properties table' that allows me to add per-texture data like friction and 'zipperness'. * I recognise comment fields in the AC3D file for some kinds of effects such as objects that spin or slide in a repetitive manner, moving texture (nice for water, lava, electrical sparks and arcs, etc). Dunno if comments can be entered in Blender - and I don't know whether they survive being written to AC3D format intact. * Some effects (such as the spinning herring) are hard-coded into the game. ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: pmb <phi...@vi...> - 2004-06-28 00:00:24
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Hello everybody, I just subscribed to the mailing list as I'm interrested in the developpement of TuxKart. However I don't know the current state of the project and would like to contribute, but I dont know where to start. I know C, but i'm not expert. I dont know much about 3D programming but i'm interrested to investigate this. This is about one of the first big project I contribute, I was wondering if there is some small ToDo's that nobody have the time for ? thanx :) |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-27 23:54:08
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Ingo Ruhnke wrote: > There is nothing wrong with reusing stuff, I just want to reduce it to > the good parts and throw everything else away. That much (at least) we agree on. Dump what didn't work - add new to replace it...but keep what *did* work. >>Why change a spinning herring to a spinning coin or a pink elephant >>or something? > > Because I am hell of a lot confused by having red-herrings as bonus, > green-herrings as bad things and hell-I-can't-remember-which-color- > herrings as speedups. They all just look kind of the same when driving > with high speed. So what scheme *does* work for you? Pretty much every game has highly ad-hoc things. MarioKart uses Cubes with '?' on them for good things and cubes with an upside-down '?' for bad things. The confusion-until-the-last-minute thing is absolutely crucial for game play. Ditto with herring colours. >>It's change for change's sake. > > Yes, in parts that is true, but thats the point. The game has to fit > together as a whole, one can't do that if one keeps all the old stuff > around. I don't see how choosing an ice cube over a computer monitor changes how things 'hang together'. > To make it all fit together one has to start from scratch and > then only bring back old stuff that was good and useable. One needs a > good reason to *keep* something old, not one to change it. That's a ludicrous position. Change absolutely everything except what we can't change? I don't know *ANY* commercial games of the 'cute' genre that do that. >>M$ bashing of the *obvious* kind is not good - but a little subtle >>play is OK IMHO. > > Well, if its subtle enough than it might be ok, however so far I have > mostly seen only the very damn obvious kind MS bashing in linux games, > thats why I better avoid it all together in the first place. xtux was stupid (attack specifically recognisable/named Microsoft employees with a chainsaw wielding penguin)!! xbill - ditto - not subtle enough. BSOD is on the very skinnymost end of that curve...I couldn't imagine a more subtle dig at one of the most truly evil companys on the planet. >>The Big Picture only works well if we don't try to invent the whole >>range of characters every time we write a game. > > I just don't consider this 'Big Picture' finished or even mature > enough to call parts of it fixed, thats all. Not *fixed* - but evolvable. Not change for the sake of change. > As said above I find using herring for a whole number of different > things a pretty bad idea. See earlier comments about the role of the spinning cube in MarioKart. > Sure I could now start and create different > looking herrings and such, but I easily get a far better result by > starting from scratch and not using herring for each and everything. > Just for the record, herring shouldn't be used in Tuxkart as Coin, > since other drivers might not be penguins, so something generic could > be better. It's just an icon. What does a toadstool need coins for? Banana's are not in fact part of the natural diet of a gorilla. Herrings only swim in the Northern Hemisphere but Penguins only live south of the equator. Who cares? It's an icon. >>xtux didn't have collectables (as I recall) and the original >>SuperTux didn't follow the herring convention AFAIK. > > SuperTux had a golden herring for invulnurability, got replaced with a > 'classic' star. ...and that helped the game how exactly? > Speaking about logos and such, we could reuse them for the basic > design of the Karts, not sure if its such a good idea, but it might > work and be much less abvious then using them as characters. So for > Geeko it would be something like this (just green, four wheels and in > Kart shape): > > http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/luxrota-uv7.jpg Yeah - well, once you change the character, I don't think you need to preserve anything of it in kart design. The karts need to somehow fit with the characters...and most of all, they need to look good in the situations where you see them most. > I am not even sure if Penny should be a penguin, after all I have a > hard time imagine a female penguin that doesn't just look like Tux + > bow in the non-existing hair. As I explained - I polled the female gamers about this - and they were pretty unanimous about what they wanted the female image of Tux to look like. You are not a female game player - you aren't the one who'd be most likely to want the 'play as gown' thing. > In SuperTux we have this little IceBlock as BSOD replacement: > > * http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/iceblock.gif Yeah - it's OK - but it's going to look silly in a lava-themed level. > And while, since BSOD is just the most obvious Microsoft bashing, I > really would prefer to get rid of it. Sorry - I just can't agree with you on this one. So what's the solution to such impasses? Put both in there is my recommendation. > Nolok, which is the bad guy in SuperTux: > > http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/nolok.png OK. > As replacement for the butterfly-Tux we could use this little guy: > > http://super-tux.sourceforge.net/milestone1/images/flyingsnow.png Change for change's sake again...why change? What is the reason that snow is so good and a butterfly Tux is so bad? I can give the reasons why butterfly Tux is good: The butterfly Tux was originally an angel-tux...your guardian angel coming to help you...but then we decided to make it religion-neutral, hence the butterfly - a sign of peace of sorts. > Some other (not yet used) SuperTux characters: > > http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/eviltux.png > http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/yeti2.jpg So your basic view is that any character you designed is good - and anything the original 'consortium' of designers put together is bad? Is that what you're trying to tell us? You're sure coming over that way. Those are OK - I like the evilTux - but the Yeti is a DISASTER because he has fur and doing good fur is a BIG no-no for anything but the VERY latest of hardware...and even then, you have to want it pretty badly to take the performance hit for it. >>My view is that it's pretty pointless to simply make up a character off >>the top of our heads (assuming we can do that convincingly) - when there >>are so many OpenSourced characters out there already. > > The problem is that there aren't any characters, just logos and stuff. Aside from geeko (which I've agreed we should drop), I disagree. >>I think the Mozilla dinosaur is a good pick too. > > Would need a serious redesigned, a dragon like creature would be good, > but I wouldn't call it Mozilla, Mozilla itself is just too huge. The early versions of Mozilla were a cuter, more cartoonish dinosaur. The idea of a dinoasur in the abstract is surely a good idea - painting it red and calling it Mozilla doesn't make much difference to much - and some people will doubtless like the reference. ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Ingo R. <gr...@gm...> - 2004-06-27 23:43:59
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Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> writes: > We talked some about using ODE physics for this...that seems possible. > This is a concrete decision we have to take - we can't start off on one route > and change our minds. > > Does anyone have much ODE experience? I've played with it (with mixed > success). I don't have experience with ODE and it seems pretty nice for boxes that bounce around and such. However for Tuxkart I think all we need is basically a 2D physics model, I don't want to see Karts crashing realistically and go upside down and such, I want the Kart to stay flat on the ground and allow nice drifts in the curves and I am not sure how difficult it would be to get this drifting right with ODE. Beside the lack of drift and some lack of precision in the collision detection (easy to push other players through a wall) the current physics seem already be quite useable. > It's not clear whether we have to improve TuxKart's handling of '.ac', improve > Blender's exporter, or write an entire new '.blend' loader for AC3D. Comments > please? A .blend loader is unrealistic I think, unless things changed recently.blend file format is still more or less a memory dump of internal Blender structures and not meant to be read by other apps. There his however a .xml based fileformat planed, but that isn't present in the current version. A custom exporter is needed and shouldn't be too difficult to create in the long run, for the time being the standard .ac exporter seems to be enough. -- WWW: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ JabberID: gr...@ja... ICQ: 59461927 |
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From: Ingo R. <gr...@gm...> - 2004-06-27 23:11:10
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Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> writes: > Arguably not (although I happen to think they're pretty firmly > established). But even if they aren't yet established - how do you > imagine putting a completely different set of characters into every > new game makes that any better? Different characters give you a clean start, you simply arn't bound by older stuff. Sure one can always reuse old stuff when its good, but being forced to reuse old stuff just because its old isn't really a good start. > Clearly there is value in this kind of recognition or all of the > commercial games of this genre wouldn't continually re-use the same > ones over and over. There is nothing wrong with reusing stuff, I just want to reduce it to the good parts and throw everything else away. > But getting that established requires building on what understanding > people have - not tossing out what's already established. I don't think there is a understanding in peoples mind at this point, just because some game used some item back in the past for something doesn't mean that some noticable amount of people still remembers that. > Why change a spinning herring to a spinning coin or a pink elephant > or something? Because I am hell of a lot confused by having red-herrings as bonus, green-herrings as bad things and hell-I-can't-remember-which-color- herrings as speedups. They all just look kind of the same when driving with high speed. > It's change for change's sake. Yes, in parts that is true, but thats the point. The game has to fit together as a whole, one can't do that if one keeps all the old stuff around. To make it all fit together one has to start from scratch and then only bring back old stuff that was good and useable. One needs a good reason to *keep* something old, not one to change it. > M$ bashing of the *obvious* kind is not good - but a little subtle > play is OK IMHO. Well, if its subtle enough than it might be ok, however so far I have mostly seen only the very damn obvious kind MS bashing in linux games, thats why I better avoid it all together in the first place. > The Big Picture only works well if we don't try to invent the whole > range of characters every time we write a game. I just don't consider this 'Big Picture' finished or even mature enough to call parts of it fixed, thats all. > TuxAQFH, TuxKart and TuxRacer all use the idea that blue (really: silver) > herrings are general 'points' to be scored - like coins in Mario games. > Red Herrings do some kind of generally good magic, Green ones are generally > bad magic and gold ones are super-versions of the silver ones. As said above I find using herring for a whole number of different things a pretty bad idea. Sure I could now start and create different looking herrings and such, but I easily get a far better result by starting from scratch and not using herring for each and everything. Just for the record, herring shouldn't be used in Tuxkart as Coin, since other drivers might not be penguins, so something generic could be better. > xtux didn't have collectables (as I recall) and the original > SuperTux didn't follow the herring convention AFAIK. SuperTux had a golden herring for invulnurability, got replaced with a 'classic' star. > Just as with Mario, you don't need to know *specifically* what a > mushroom does, only that it's not going to kill you and that you > should probably go out of your way to collect it. So, you don't need > to know *specifically* what a Red Herring does. I need to know that Green Herring will basically halt me and I have to play quite a lot to know what Blue Herring is about, not using Herring would avoid this confusion completly. > I think Tux is a given - it *is* "Tux"-kart after all. > Beyond that, I think we can agree to drop Geeko...no problem. Speaking about logos and such, we could reuse them for the basic design of the Karts, not sure if its such a good idea, but it might work and be much less abvious then using them as characters. So for Geeko it would be something like this (just green, four wheels and in Kart shape): http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/luxrota-uv7.jpg > I'm fairly passionate about keeping Gown and BSOD - you don't want > to call her 'Gown' - but since we want everything to be graphical > anyway, her name doesn't appear anywhere and you can call her > whatever you like. I am not even sure if Penny should be a penguin, after all I have a hard time imagine a female penguin that doesn't just look like Tux + bow in the non-existing hair. > My description of what I'd like BSOD's kart to look like is (I think) > fairly compelling. My son has been building a 1st cut of it - I'll > post a screenshot to another thread. In SuperTux we have this little IceBlock as BSOD replacement: * http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/iceblock.gif And while, since BSOD is just the most obvious Microsoft bashing, I really would prefer to get rid of it. > What about the others? Nolok, which is the bad guy in SuperTux: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/nolok.png As replacement for the butterfly-Tux we could use this little guy: http://super-tux.sourceforge.net/milestone1/images/flyingsnow.png Some other (not yet used) SuperTux characters: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/eviltux.png http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/yeti2.jpg > My view is that it's pretty pointless to simply make up a character off > the top of our heads (assuming we can do that convincingly) - when there > are so many OpenSourced characters out there already. The problem is that there aren't any characters, just logos and stuff. And well, just throwing them all together won't give a very good mix. > Beastie seems to me to have a lot of milage because he's a devil with a > pitchfork - which is interesting graphically - and has all the associations > of fire and lava and stuff - which always looks good in game levels. Might be useable. > I think the Mozilla dinosaur is a good pick too. Would need a serious redesigned, a dragon like creature would be good, but I wouldn't call it Mozilla, Mozilla itself is just too huge. -- WWW: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ JabberID: gr...@ja... ICQ: 59461927 |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-27 22:48:14
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Ryan Flegel wrote: > My account name is 'sik0fewl', but you can wait until I actually > contribute something if you want, before I adding me. I can't say *for > sure* if I'll have time (university summer classes), but I'll > certainly make an effort. Yeah - OK. Let me know when you need it - it only takes me 30 seconds to turn it on - but it's probably not a good idea to give away commit privilage unnecessarily. ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Ryan F. <rf...@gm...> - 2004-06-27 22:25:54
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:58:24 -0500, Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> wrote: > > Everyone who wants to work on the GoTM TuxKart effort will need developer > access to CVS. Please let me have your sourceforge account names so > I can turn this on. My account name is 'sik0fewl', but you can wait until I actually contribute something if you want, before I adding me. I can't say *for sure* if I'll have time (university summer classes), but I'll certainly make an effort. -- Ryan |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-27 21:56:05
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Ingo Ruhnke wrote: > Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> writes: > >>Everyone who wants to work on the GoTM TuxKart effort will need >>developer access to CVS. Please let me have your sourceforge account >>names so > > My account name is 'grumbel' You should have CVS privilages now. ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-27 21:51:53
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Ingo Ruhnke wrote: >>If you have a better way - I'd truly like to hear it. However, >>simply tossing out somewhat established characters and putting in >>wholly new ones doesn't really acomplish very much. > > I simply doubt that the characters are established. Arguably not (although I happen to think they're pretty firmly established). But even if they aren't yet established - how do you imagine putting a completely different set of characters into every new game makes that any better? Clearly there is value in this kind of recognition or all of the commercial games of this genre wouldn't continually re-use the same ones over and over. Heck, it goes beyond games - cartoons, toys - everything. > Tux might be the only one that is reasonable established, even so > their is still a whole lot of room to let him do whatever we want, ie. > no kind of bonuses and powerups has really been established beside the > herring and even that is used for all kinds of different things. But getting that established requires building on what understanding people have - not tossing out what's already established. Why change a spinning herring to a spinning coin or a pink elephant or something? It's change for change's sake. By all means model a nicer herring - add new things that AREN'T herrings - but there is no need to subtract without powerful reasons. > Gown on the other side still runs around as pink penguin in xtux, > looks quite different in tuxkart, and isn't GUI-selectable in TuxAQFH. Nothing's GUI selectable in TuxAQFH - nor was it in early versions of TuxKart. The Voodoo cards couldn't run GUI's on the same screen as the 3D graphics - so that stuff was hard to do. In those days, everything was command-line oriented and most games from that vintage had command line options. You most certainly can play as gown in TuxAQFH and you could originally in TuxKart too. I have a photo of a little girl - maybe 5 years old - playing as Gown. Her father sent me the photo telling me that the little girl wanted a red/white hair bow to look like Gown. > Geeko isn't used anywhere beside Tuxkart I think. No - and he's a problem because he's a commercial logo. Certainly he should be replaced. > Bsod was used in the old SuperTux but got stripped away, beside I > think Microsoft-bashing is something that we should really avoid. M$ bashing of the *obvious* kind is not good - but a little subtle play is OK IMHO. >>Characters don't have to be deep - it's not like I need to know >>their opinions or politics - but I DO need to know who the good >>guys are and who the bad guys are... > > There are no good guys in a Kart game and beside that even Nintendo > happily lets them switch from the bad side to the good one and back, > nothing wrong with that. That's true if you only think about one game in isolation. What I'm trying to get across is that we need to look at the big picture. People go out and buy MarioKart DoubleDash having a REALLY good idea of what they are getting into because they played Mario Tennis or Mario Golf or something. Building that kind of recognition for OpenSource games goes beyond just one game. That's why the original authors of at least five games got together to discuss this stuff. The Big Picture only works well if we don't try to invent the whole range of characters every time we write a game. > So far there isn't any kind of established 'magic-system' so far for > Tux and friends, so we are still rather free on that topic. What > should happens if Tux collect herring? Should they act as coins, make > him invulnurable, let him grow or what? TuxAQFH, TuxKart and TuxRacer all use the idea that blue (really: silver) herrings are general 'points' to be scored - like coins in Mario games. Red Herrings do some kind of generally good magic, Green ones are generally bad magic and gold ones are super-versions of the silver ones. I believe that the freeware version of TuxRacer only used the silver ones - the commercial version used gold ones and (IIRC) red ones...I'm not sure of that though. xtux didn't have collectables (as I recall) and the original SuperTux didn't follow the herring convention AFAIK. Just as with Mario, you don't need to know *specifically* what a mushroom does, only that it's not going to kill you and that you should probably go out of your way to collect it. So, you don't need to know *specifically* what a Red Herring does. >>We have to have *SOMETHING* like that or else it's just random and >>meaningless. > > Well, Mario doesn't throw around with plumber items either, but > instead consumes mushrooms and throws around turtles. So stuff can > actually be rather random, as long as it is consistent in the game > itself. No - it doesn't have to be exactly the obvious occupation of the character (although the early Mario games had more to do with wrenches and green pipes than later ones) - it just needs to be moderately consistent and to change only slowly and predictably. > I don't think that cross-game consistentency is all that important, I couldn't disagree more. I think it's fairly crucial to the long term needs of OpenSource. Anyway - in the interests of not starting this project with a massive flamefest, let's try to pick a set of characters. I think Tux is a given - it *is* "Tux"-kart after all. Beyond that, I think we can agree to drop Geeko...no problem. I'm fairly passionate about keeping Gown and BSOD - you don't want to call her 'Gown' - but since we want everything to be graphical anyway, her name doesn't appear anywhere and you can call her whatever you like. My description of what I'd like BSOD's kart to look like is (I think) fairly compelling. My son has been building a 1st cut of it - I'll post a screenshot to another thread. What about the others? My view is that it's pretty pointless to simply make up a character off the top of our heads (assuming we can do that convincingly) - when there are so many OpenSourced characters out there already. Beastie seems to me to have a lot of milage because he's a devil with a pitchfork - which is interesting graphically - and has all the associations of fire and lava and stuff - which always looks good in game levels. I think the Mozilla dinosaur is a good pick too. I think these would be great characters even if they WEREN'T OpenSource mascots, the fact that they *are* is just a little icing on the cake. What would everyone else like to see? ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Ingo R. <gr...@gm...> - 2004-06-27 21:44:10
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Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> writes: > Everyone who wants to work on the GoTM TuxKart effort will need > developer access to CVS. Please let me have your sourceforge account > names so My account name is 'grumbel' -- WWW: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ JabberID: gr...@ja... ICQ: 59461927 |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-27 21:19:53
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Ricardo Cruz wrote: > I noticed that TuxKart doesn't make a very smart checking where it is placed. > Just looks at local dir, up dir and system chunk (/usr). If you 'make install', it should work out where it is OK...but you're right, it could be better. > Smarter location checking would be: > - asking proc for the binary directory; > - look at the way the binary was executed - won't be able to get the location > for symlinks. OK - gimme your sourceforge user name - you'll have CVS access and you can attack it. > By the way, using chdir() is kinda of ugly. What about having a global > string? It's a LOT easier that way - no more messing around strcat'ing strings - all the files are always in the exact same place once you've chdir'ed to the right directory. Why do you think it's ugly? > Best fix, however, would be to make Linux file manager to execute binaries > from their own dir. Hmmm - that's pretty controversial. ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2004-06-27 21:14:35
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Caleb Sawtell wrote: > also how about if you use a magnet on him he goes mental and I was > thinking he could the super attack MEGA LAG so that all the other > players lag for 1-2 mins and he is fine :D Yeah - really it would be good for 'special' attacks to work on certain people better than others - and for each to have a special defense too. It makes the game 'richer'. We should establish a list of characters - what each one has in the way of special abilities and vulnerabilities. > well its just a thought and what are we going to do about geeko?? Yeah - I'm not at all happy about my Geeko model - it completely sucks. I'd be happy to just drop Geeko. Also, I think when I did the game, the big commercial distro's were seen more as the good guys than they are these days. Back then it was good to support them - nowadays it kinda smells like advertising. The trackside signage should probably promote OpenSource projects rather than SuSE and VA.Linux and such. Philips got a promo on the original track because they gave me a free GeForce-256 graphics card...so I owed them one...I think I've repayed that dept! ---------------------------- Steve Baker ------------------------- HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...> WorkEmail: <sj...@li...> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org Projects : http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M- V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
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From: Ingo R. <gr...@gm...> - 2004-06-27 21:05:06
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Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> writes: > I'd like to know what process you'd like to use to try to get some > kind of 'recognition' into these critters? First of, simply by not reusing some companies logo, ie. somethings which people have seen for years, yet never have seen it move, speak or whatever. Sure that doesn't guarantee for anything, but at least it gives people something new, something that isn't already spoiled due to the context it was used in the past. > If you have a better way - I'd truly like to hear it. However, > simply tossing out somewhat established characters and putting in > wholly new ones doesn't really acomplish very much. I simply doubt that the characters are established. Tux might be the only one that is reasonable established, even so their is still a whole lot of room to let him do whatever we want, ie. no kind of bonuses and powerups has really been established beside the herring and even that is used for all kinds of different things. Gown on the other side still runs around as pink penguin in xtux, looks quite different in tuxkart, and isn't GUI-selectable in TuxAQFH. I am not even able to find a picture of her on images.google. Geeko isn't used anywhere beside Tuxkart I think. Bsod was used in the old SuperTux but got stripped away, beside I think Microsoft-bashing is something that we should really avoid. After all if 'we' don't like Microsoft, we shouldn't let them influence our character design. > Characters don't have to be deep - it's not like I need to know > their opinions or politics - but I DO need to know who the good > guys are and who the bad guys are... There are no good guys in a Kart game and beside that even Nintendo happily lets them switch from the bad side to the good one and back, nothing wrong with that. > who likes herring and who would be likely to shoot CD-ROMS. So far there isn't any kind of established 'magic-system' so far for Tux and friends, so we are still rather free on that topic. What should happens if Tux collect herring? Should they act as coins, make him invulnurable, let him grow or what? > We have to have *SOMETHING* like that or else it's just random and > meaningless. Well, Mario doesn't throw around with plumber items either, but instead consumes mushrooms and throws around turtles. So stuff can actually be rather random, as long as it is consistent in the game itself. I don't think that cross-game consistentency is all that important, sure you shouldn't have and item and give it one role in some game and a whole other in a similar game, but thats not what we are doing anyway. > Game players don't read manuals...you have to do SOMETHING to make > that connection. In-game consistentency should be more then enough for that, if the player collects an item the first time he shouldn't be completly suprised by what happens, but there is little need to know what exactly is going to happen either (mushrooms boost you in MarioKart, but let you grow in MarioWorld, knowing that they are collectable is already enough to know). > OK - I'll bite. Which languages had this problem? German, Portuguese, English (yeah, its an english word, yet native speakers didn't like it much at all when used as name), maybe more, can't remember. > How did you figure out that 'Penny' was OK? How many languages did > you survey? All of the above maybe a few more that where around. > Where did you get in contact with all those native speakers in order > to be sure that "Penny" doesn't mean "Stinking Pile of Dog Pooh" in > Mongolian? We didn't try to find a name perfectly prouncable in every language possible, just something people playing the game would be ok with. And the little world play between Tux and Gown wasn't really enough to keep it. > Be honest - someone didn't like the name Well, it started just as a misunderstanding and with the name Gwen: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=4193986&forum_id=36963 which was then later fixed to Penny. > At least in English 'Gown' has mild humor value and it's memorable for > that reason Yes, it has a mild humor value, but there is really not much more than that to it. And well, I prefer a name that I can pronounce about one which I can't and which has humour that requires a lexicon for me to understand. > - and the vast proportion of Linux gamers must speak English because > the overwhelming majority of Linux games are written only in English > and never get translated into anything else. SuperTux already has translations in CVS and so do most other games that have any content worth a translation. And well, I speak english as second language and still neither did get the 'joke' at first nor do I like the name itself. -- WWW: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ JabberID: gr...@ja... ICQ: 59461927 |
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From: Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...> - 2004-06-27 20:52:39
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The link is this: http://rpmcruz.planetaclix.pt/repository/system/ It is offline currently. Have to pay the bill. :D Ricardo Em Domingo, 27 de Junho de 2004 13:31, escreveu: > Hey there, > > I noticed that TuxKart doesn't make a very smart checking where it is > placed. Just looks at local dir, up dir and system chunk (/usr). > Smarter location checking would be: > - asking proc for the binary directory; > - look at the way the binary was executed - won't be able to get the > location for symlinks. > > An implementation of the last one is here: > http:// > > By the way, using chdir() is kinda of ugly. What about having a global > string? > > Best fix, however, would be to make Linux file manager to execute binaries > from their own dir. > > Cheers, > Ricardo > (blacksheep from Linux Game Tome) -- Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward. |
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