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Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Text area helpers, Wiki Syntax and WYSIWYG and the strategic importance for TikiWiki
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From: Marc L. <ma...@ma...> - 2009-11-21 05:02:30
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Hi! Thank you all for your messages of support. You are all saying it's important and a good project. People want WYSIWYG like World Peace :-) However, my last email was not about asking people if they thought it was a good idea. I had a specific challenge, and in 3 weeks, no one has taken it up. So for the reasons explained previously, I will __not__ be taking on this project. I do hope someone else does, cause I want WYSIWYG too! However, I will continue to push to improve usability of the Wiki interface. Here are some ideas on the next steps: http://dev.tikiwiki.org/WYSIWYG-ish+wiki ( I'd appreciate some feedback ) Best regards, M ;-) On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 3:56 PM, luci aka luciash d' being <sf...@gr...> wrote: > +1 for your reply geoff :) > > On 11/01/2009 07:57 PM, geoff@enmore wrote: >> Hi Marc >> >> As you know I am totally convinced that there is a large user constituency >> 'out there' that will only work with a wysiwyg editor no matter how 'smooth' >> a wiki text editor we have. This type of user base is one that has little or >> no technical background and they just find the use of exposed control >> characters to create styling etc too alien. Although interestingly they >> readily accept the use of plugins and other { } functions that do special >> things for them eg {toc}. >> >> The good news from my perspective is that this user base isn't too demanding >> - the CKEditor functionality is pretty good, although there are some gaps, >> which may be just to do with the Tiki implementation. What I think we just >> need to do is focus on making it a lot more bullet proof. >> >> Since I'm living with a growing body of users that use the current wysiwyg >> editor every day I am building up quite a body of knowledge of where it goes >> wrong etc., and will continue to add to the 'observation' pages. So I'm more >> than happy to test tiki developments and help focus upon some of the key >> problems. I also have a Tiki test site that I synch regularly with trunk >> that I would be more than happy to be used for on-going Tiki wysiwyg testing >> by anyone that wants to use it. This test site already has a range of >> configs/test pages for various wysiwyg issues. I'm also increasingly testing >> with a browser set that includes IE7/8, Chrome, Safari, and Opera plus FF of >> course which is my standard. >> >> I've not researched what else is 'out there' but my time is absolutely >> available for anything that moves us forward with this. >> >> Cheers >> >> geoff >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Marc Laporte [mailto:mar...@ti...] >> Sent: 01 November 2009 17:14 >> To: Tikiwiki developers >> Subject: Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Text area helpers,Wiki Syntax and WYSIWYG and >> the strategic importance for TikiWiki >> >> >>> I just checked again, and CKEditor is __not__ using CKEditor for its >>> own wiki. If you create an account and click the following link, you >>> will see they are using the MediaWiki tools, which are very much like >>> our old quicktags. >>> http://docs.cksource.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Fredck&action=edit& >>> redlink=1 >>> >>> Interesting, is it not? CKeditor is using a wiki (they see value in a >>> wiki), but it's not WYSIWYG (you would think they should be able, no?) >>> So to all that are wondering if wiki projects (that are not doing both >>> Wiki & WYSIWYG) __are sitting on their hands__: If it was an easy >>> problem, it would be reliably solved by now! :-) >>> >>> >> >> >> On a related note, another well-known editor "TinyMCE", doesn't use WYSIWYG >> for its own wiki: >> http://wiki.moxiecode.com/ >> >> Now, Jonny did a fantastic job, and I feel we now have quasi-WYSIWYG in >> Tiki4. We have helpers for almost everything. This will refine over time. >> Great stuff! >> >> Now, back to CKEditor-style WYSIWYG: I __may__ be involved on a WYSIWYG >> project for Tiki5. However, I will not do so unless I have a serious >> contingent of people that will volunteer for testing. >> >> For all people that say WYSIWYG is important, I have a challenge for you. I >> am asking you to put your time where your mouth is :-) >> >> You can look at all the wiki engines or CMS's open source or not. >> Please try to find at least one >> - wiki engine that has WYSIWYG, that maintains wiki syntax. >> - or does the round-trip in a reliable way. >> >> __Don't__ tell me >> * there is a plugin, or >> * it's on the feature list, or >> * in the next version, it's coming >> * If there is progress, I will sign-up as a Beta tester. >> * I found this page that talks about it >> *etc. >> >> I need credible action/proof, that there is a real desire/need/energy. >> WYSIWYG will need lots of testers, with all the browsers. >> >> This is an example of credible action: >> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/WYSIWYG+observations >> I expect such a page for each solution that is found. >> >> The benefit of WYSIWYG while maintaining wiki syntax, is that we could >> disable for less reliable browsers. Ex.: WYSWYG only for FF3, for example. >> >> I need you to find or setup a live demo that we can all play with. >> >> If no one follows up on this, I will conclude that -> >> A- There are no examples or real World solutions so it's "impossible" >> with the state of current technology. So it's a losing battle. >> or >> B- It's not a real-enough need in our community and we won't be able to have >> enough Beta testers to make this reliable. So it's a losing battle. >> >> Either way, I will not embark in the project. >> >> But if some of you put your time where your mouth is... :-) >> >> So, any volunteers? >> >> Thanks! >> >> M ;-) >> >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.40/2471 - Release Date: 11/01/09 >> 07:38:00 >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference >> _______________________________________________ >> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list >> Tik...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> Modern Hosting PIPNI - http://www.pipni.cz/ >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > _______________________________________________ > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list > Tik...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel > -- Marc Laporte http://MarcLaporte.com http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte http://AvanTech.net http://OurWiki.net |