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#4559 Immediately subsequent slurs and/or ties must not touch each other
Accepted
nobody
None
design
Ugly
2015-09-09
2015-08-13
Anonymous
No
Originally created by: *anonymous
Originally created by: simon.al...@mail.de
Sometimes two slurs, whose end and beginning, respectively, are attached to one note, may touch each other:
\version "2.19.25" \relative { g'( f)( e) }
I would like to see some small padding here.
Originally posted by: simon.al...@mail.de
And only two days later, I find a strong counter-example:
Wagner, Tristan und Isolde, Vorspiel – first edition, B&H, typeset ca. 1860 (Examples from p.#9)
The examples are somewhat inconsistent, but some very clearly touch each other.
Status: Invalid
Last edit: Simon Albrecht 2015-09-09
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
The `invalid' tag is unfounded. What you show as samples is bad typography, caused by (a) engravers who were in a hurry (especially while engraving parts), (b) the use of fixed-length stamps for small ties and/or slurs, and (c) the physical effect of `sliding' into an already engraved tie while engraving a new one that should end very near to the old one.
IMHO, neither ties nor slurs should touch at the end points, as you correctly state.
Summary: Immediately subsequent slurs and/or ties must not touch each other
Status: Accepted
Originally posted by: simon.al...@mail.de
I was on the verge of writing a quite annoyed remark, but I shouldn’t be blinded by love for this wonderful and impressive engraving. :-)
You’re right; especially the ‘stamp’ argument hits the point. I don’t think readability is harmed by the touching, but after all I reported this issue myself from a certain unease.
Eulenburg #425, plate no. 4558 (Brahms Symphony I) apparently has a different use of slur/tie stamps and, although many things are touching and crossing, subsequent slurs/ties are usually separated.
Originally posted by: dak@gnu.org
Please don't conflate slurs with ties in that regard. Especially regarding the attachment points, ties are a completely different matter from slurs.
Originally posted by: simon.al...@mail.de
Technically yes, but not on the surface: most of the examples in the first comment show a slur and a tie in vicinity, and indifferent in drawing by the way.
Originally posted by: dak@gnu.org
Most of the examples in the first comment are engraved astonishingly sloppily. Indeed it is near impossible to distinguish ties from slurs and/or phrasing slurs and that makes it unnecessarily hard to figure out the desired execution. I can't vouch for the overall score layout, but the details are not convincing to me.
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
Simon, I think that pocket scores are not ideal for discussing correct engraving – I guess that you are referring to such a score since you mention `Eulenburg'. A better place is to look at chamber music stuff or piano solo literature, which is typeset at a far larger point size.
Originally posted by: simon.al...@mail.de
Yes, it is a pocket score to which I was referring, but that doesn’t seem to deteriorate accuracy in my eyes. –
There aren’t too many good examples, but a few more be given:
J.B. refers to the Brahms complete edition issued by Breitkopf & Härtel in 1926/27:
U.E. 1222 is Max Reger, Phantasie und Fuge über B-A-C-H, reprinted (?) from a 1900 edition
Last edit: Simon Albrecht 2015-09-09
Originally posted by: tdanielsmusic
Some of these examples are hardly ones which should be put forward as best engraving practice. LilyPond aims to emulate the _best_ hand-engraving practice, not any hand-engraving practice, and certainly not poor hand-engraving practice. In this context "best" means, first and foremost, clearest from a performers' view-point, and second, aesthetically pleasing. So examples presented in support of a requested change should be (a) scores intended for use in _performing_ and (b) recognised to be beautifully hand-engraved.
Originally posted by: simon.al...@mail.de
Oh, well, I was of the opinion that these are of the best kind of engraving there is. So I’m honestly interested in hearing and seeing what even better examples you have to give – and why you disapprove those already given.
You’re probably right that I’m rather focused on aesthetics, and oldfashioned ones. My opinion is that aesthetics and legibility coincide quite well in many engravings from a ‘golden era’ centered around, let’s say 1910.
Apparently, there are different aesthetic preferences also within our ‘team’ – and must be, and I for my part am glad if individuality has its place.
Originally posted by: simon.al...@mail.de
Although of course we have to come to an agreement and Lily’s standard output should be objectively good in some way. Only to prevent misunderstandings…
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
I disagree with comment #9. To my eyes, the examples given in #8 are *all* good typography, especially the complete edition of Brahms's works is very good. And they *do* prove the point: ties and/or slurs must not touch at the ends.
Regarding pocket scores: At that time they were not photomechanically reduced from large scores, but the engravers really typeset them at this small size – they are good examples how in general typesetting should look like at small sizes, but unavoidably there is a certain deterioration in quality due to the tiny elements.
Originally posted by: tdanielsmusic
In making my general point in #9, when I said "some of the examples" the ones I had in mind were those in #1. I had just read through the whole discussion and should have realised my comment appeared to refer to the examples of #8. I agree with Werner that the ones in #8 are good, and support the original contention.
It would be interesting to see performing editions corresponding to the examples in #1.
Originally posted by: simon.al...@mail.de
I don’t want to much increase the plethora of examples, but here you are:
Wagner, Tristan und Isolde, Vorspiel, m.61–62
– piano arrangement by Richard Kleinmichel, Schirmer 1906
– same arrangement, Breitkopf&Härtel (n.d.)
– oboe part, B&H 1892
That should be clear.
Originally posted by: tdanielsmusic
Excellent! Thanks. Now we see a clear gap between slur and adjacent tie. Those are good design examples for LP to emulate.
Diff: