tcl-core — Tcl Core Team discussions about Tcl development

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP 729

[Rolf A. <tcl...@po...>]

saba Nemethi <csa...@pu...>
writes:
> Attn. TCT members,
>
> This is a CFV for TIP 729: Add a tk attribtable command to the core.
>
>     https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/729.md
>
> After long, intensive, and very fruitful discussions with Emiliano and
> a few other members of the Community, with several iterations
> regarding the specification and implementation of the tk attribtable
> command, it is now time to vote on the inclusion of this command in
> the Tk core.
>
> Please send your votes to this list until 2025-10-11 00:00 UTC.

TIP 729: yes

Good thing, good work. Thanks!

rolf

>
> Harald voted already with "yes" on 2025-09-09.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Csaba

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP 729

[Andreas K. <and...@gm...>]

> On 2 Oct 2025 at 1:16 AM +0800, Csaba Nemethi <csa...@t-...>, wrote:
> > This is a CFV for TIP 729: Add a tk attribtable command to the core.
> >
> > https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/729.md
> 
> TIP 729: YES

TIP 729:	YES

> 
> -- Steve
> 
> 

-- 
Happy Tcling,
	Andreas Kupries <and...@gm...>
			<https://core.tcl-lang.org/akupries/>
			<https://akupries.tclers.tk/>
	Developer @	SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 733: Add accessibility/screen reader support to Tk

[Kevin W. <kw...@co...>]

Hi Jan,

Are these test suite failures?  The test suite shouldn’t be touched at all by the accessibility code. 

—Kevin

> On Oct 9, 2025, at 4:05 AM, Jan Nijtmans <jan...@gm...> wrote:
> 
> Op vr 3 okt 2025 om 17:55 schreef Kevin Walzer:
>> Just a follow-up request for feedback on this TIP. Jan has done a bit of cleanup of my code (thanks Jan!) and I’ve had a bit of user feedback from the Python/Tkinter community. But I was hoping to see a bit of discussion before calling for a vote.
> 
> Starting up Tk on Linux simply crashes:
>    <https://github.com/tcltk/tk/actions/runs/1830457881>
> Same on MacOS (there it starts with bind.test):
>    <https://github.com/tcltk/tk/actions/runs/18304578819>
> And also on Windows:
>    <https://github.com/tcltk/tk/actions/runs/18304578818>
> 
> So, something is still missing ....
> 
> Regards,
>      Jan Nijtmans

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 733: Add accessibility/screen reader support to Tk

[Jan N. <jan...@gm...>]

Op vr 3 okt 2025 om 17:55 schreef Kevin Walzer:
> Just a follow-up request for feedback on this TIP. Jan has done a bit of cleanup of my code (thanks Jan!) and I’ve had a bit of user feedback from the Python/Tkinter community. But I was hoping to see a bit of discussion before calling for a vote.

Starting up Tk on Linux simply crashes:
    <https://github.com/tcltk/tk/actions/runs/1830457881>
Same on MacOS (there it starts with bind.test):
    <https://github.com/tcltk/tk/actions/runs/18304578819>
And also on Windows:
    <https://github.com/tcltk/tk/actions/runs/18304578818>

So, something is still missing ....

Regards,
      Jan Nijtmans

[TCLCORE] Reminder: Voting on TIP 729 closes on Friday

[Csaba N. <csa...@t-...>]

This is just to remind the TCT members that the voting on TIP 729 (Add a 
tk attribtable command to the core) will end on Friday, at 24:00 UTC.  See

     https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/729.md

Best regards,

Csaba

-- 
Csaba Nemethi  https://www.nemethi.de  mailto:csa...@t-...

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 729: what happens, if created command is destroyed

[Csaba N. <csa...@t-...>]

Hi Harald,

Welcome back, and many thanks for your suggestion!  I have extended the 
TIP and the man page accordingly.

Best regards,

Csaba


Am 07.10.25 um 12:09 schrieb Harald Oehlmann:
> Hi Csaba, Emiliano,
> thanks for great TIP 729.
> It is in vote and I am totally positive.
> 
> The following comment is perhaps evident, but I would love, if it is 
> spelled out in the TIP and in the man page:
> 
> "The table is deleted by deleting the command". This may be performed by 
> explicit command delete by:
> rename tableName ""
> or by implicit removal, for example the deletion of the namespace where 
> the command is created in.
> 
> Thanks for all,
> Harald
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core

-- 
Csaba Nemethi  https://www.nemethi.de  mailto:csa...@t-...

[TCLCORE] TIP 729: what happens, if created command is destroyed

[Harald O. <har...@el...>]

Hi Csaba, Emiliano,
thanks for great TIP 729.
It is in vote and I am totally positive.

The following comment is perhaps evident, but I would love, if it is 
spelled out in the TIP and in the man page:

"The table is deleted by deleting the command". This may be performed by 
explicit command delete by:
rename tableName ""
or by implicit removal, for example the deletion of the namespace where 
the command is created in.

Thanks for all,
Harald

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP 729

[Harald O. <har...@el...>]

Am 01.10.2025 um 19:14 schrieb Csaba Nemethi:
> Attn. TCT members,
> 
> This is a CFV for TIP 729: Add a tk attribtable command to the core.
> 
>      https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/729.md
> 
> After long, intensive, and very fruitful discussions with Emiliano and a 
> few other members of the Community, with several iterations regarding 
> the specification and implementation of the tk attribtable command, it 
> is now time to vote on the inclusion of this command in the Tk core.
> 
> Please send your votes to this list until 2025-10-11 00:00 UTC.
> 
> Harald voted already with "yes" on 2025-09-09.
Hi Tcl/Tk community,
thanks, I am back from 3 weeks offline in holidays.
Thanks for all the amazing work in only 3 weeks, I really appreciate!

Thanks for taking my preliminary votes into account.
I confirm them.

Next biweekly Tcl/Tk telco may happen 20th of October 12:00 UTC. Is this 
a good idea? Jan, does it fit your schedule?

Thanks for all,
Harald

Re: [TCLCORE] My script can no longer download tarballs from the core server

[Gustaf N. (sslmail) <ne...@wu...>]

Hi Schelte,

I had a few weeks ago exactly the same problems (automated downloads of versions from branches for testing via GitHub pipelines suddenly failed). So, i switched to the github mirror, which works robust and provides sufficient flexibility to download the archives. I think, just the names of the top-level directories changed. 

Let me know, if you are interested in more details.

All the best
-g

> On 06.10.2025, at 15:46, Schelte Bron <tc...@tc...> wrote:
> 
> Hello Richard,
> 
> Thank you for your answer. I guess you missed my follow-up mail. The problem I initially had was with the tcltls repository.
> 
> After Andreas pointed me to the fossil forum discussion, I found that the Tcl repository actually did allow downloading a tarball and that it was missing the "zip" tag in the robot-restrict property. So I removed that tag from the tcltls repository as well, which then allowed the download.
> 
> I suppose you are right that it would be prudent to come up with more fine-grained control using the robot-exception property.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Schelte
> 
> 
> On 06/10/2025 14:07, Richard Hipp wrote:
>> We can drop the defenses on the TCL servers as much as you want, or as much as you think your cloudflare frontend can handle.  Know this for certain:  Without defenses, the new AI robots will go through and systematically download tarballs for every single check-in in the complete history of the project.  A single tarball takes about 10 seconds of CPU time just to run the zlib compression - not even counting the work needed to assemble the files for the tarball.  This will happen multiple times per day, or per hour.  The robot download rate seems to be growing.
>> I have the SQLite repository set up so that it only allows robot-fetches of tarballs that following this pattern:
>> ```
>> https://sqlite.org/src/tarball/release/HASH/NAME.tar.gz
>> ```
>> Here HASH is really any symbolic name for the specific check-in.  It can be a SHA3 hash, or it can be a date/time stamp, or a symbolic name.  That doesn't matter.  But the /release/ that comes immediately before HASH means that the specific check-in must be tagged with "release".  My servers (and cache) can handle the load of delivering tarballs of releases.
>> Y'all want me to set up something similar for TCL?  Would that resolve the issue?
>> Or y'all can do this yourselves (if you have Admin privilege on the repositories) by visiting <https://core.tcl-lang.org/tcl/setup_robot> and entering an appropriate regexp in the "Exceptions to anti-robot restrictions" box.  The instructions give you an example, which is in fact the regexp I use for SQLite.
>> Wait a sec...  I'm looking at robot defenses page for TCL now.  It looks like somebody already has robot restrictions for tarballs turned off via the "Do not allow robots access to these pages" GLOB pattern.  What URL is not working for your scripts, exactly?
>> --
>> D. Richard Hipp
>> dr...@sq...
>> On Sunday, October 5th, 2025 at 1:18 PM, Andreas Kupries <and...@gm...> wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> When I try to download and unpack a tarball from the core server using
>>>> wget, I get a complaint from gzip: not in gzip format.
>>> 
>>>> Looking at the downloaded data, it is actually an html page that
>>>> contains (among other things) a remark: "You appear to be a robot".
>>>> Well, yes. This is an automated build script. That could be considered a
>>>> robot. But is that bad?
>>> 
>>>> I understand this happens due to misbehaving AI bots. But is there
>>>> anything that can be done to make automated tarball downloads for
>>>> legitimate use possible again? It makes no sense to me to have to clone
>>>> a whole repository when I just need a single release. It doesn't look
>>>> like fossil has the concept of a shallow clone similar to git.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I believe it would be best to talk with Richard, as the person
>>> managing the repos and the fossil serving them. There might be some
>>> way of bypassing the defenses.
>>> 
>>> Some discussion at https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forumpost/6c9c86ef97
>>> 
>>>> The alternative is that I manually copy the tarballs to my own site and
>>>> adjust the script to download from there. But that would be quite
>>>> inconvenient.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Happy Tcling,
>>> Andreas Kupries and...@gm...
>>> 
>>> https://core.tcl-lang.org/akupries/
>>> 
>>> https://akupries.tclers.tk/
>>> 
>>> Developer @ SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core

Re: [TCLCORE] My script can no longer download tarballs from the core server

[Schelte B. <tc...@tc...>]

Hello Richard,

Thank you for your answer. I guess you missed my follow-up mail. The 
problem I initially had was with the tcltls repository.

After Andreas pointed me to the fossil forum discussion, I found that 
the Tcl repository actually did allow downloading a tarball and that it 
was missing the "zip" tag in the robot-restrict property. So I removed 
that tag from the tcltls repository as well, which then allowed the 
download.

I suppose you are right that it would be prudent to come up with more 
fine-grained control using the robot-exception property.


Thanks,
Schelte


On 06/10/2025 14:07, Richard Hipp wrote:
> We can drop the defenses on the TCL servers as much as you want, or as much as you think your cloudflare frontend can handle.  Know this for certain:  Without defenses, the new AI robots will go through and systematically download tarballs for every single check-in in the complete history of the project.  A single tarball takes about 10 seconds of CPU time just to run the zlib compression - not even counting the work needed to assemble the files for the tarball.  This will happen multiple times per day, or per hour.  The robot download rate seems to be growing.
> 
> I have the SQLite repository set up so that it only allows robot-fetches of tarballs that following this pattern:
> 
> ```
> https://sqlite.org/src/tarball/release/HASH/NAME.tar.gz
> ```
> 
> Here HASH is really any symbolic name for the specific check-in.  It can be a SHA3 hash, or it can be a date/time stamp, or a symbolic name.  That doesn't matter.  But the /release/ that comes immediately before HASH means that the specific check-in must be tagged with "release".  My servers (and cache) can handle the load of delivering tarballs of releases.
> 
> Y'all want me to set up something similar for TCL?  Would that resolve the issue?
> 
> Or y'all can do this yourselves (if you have Admin privilege on the repositories) by visiting <https://core.tcl-lang.org/tcl/setup_robot> and entering an appropriate regexp in the "Exceptions to anti-robot restrictions" box.  The instructions give you an example, which is in fact the regexp I use for SQLite.
> 
> Wait a sec...  I'm looking at robot defenses page for TCL now.  It looks like somebody already has robot restrictions for tarballs turned off via the "Do not allow robots access to these pages" GLOB pattern.  What URL is not working for your scripts, exactly?
> 
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> dr...@sq...
> 
> 
> On Sunday, October 5th, 2025 at 1:18 PM, Andreas Kupries <and...@gm...> wrote:
> 
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> When I try to download and unpack a tarball from the core server using
>>> wget, I get a complaint from gzip: not in gzip format.
>>
>>> Looking at the downloaded data, it is actually an html page that
>>> contains (among other things) a remark: "You appear to be a robot".
>>> Well, yes. This is an automated build script. That could be considered a
>>> robot. But is that bad?
>>
>>> I understand this happens due to misbehaving AI bots. But is there
>>> anything that can be done to make automated tarball downloads for
>>> legitimate use possible again? It makes no sense to me to have to clone
>>> a whole repository when I just need a single release. It doesn't look
>>> like fossil has the concept of a shallow clone similar to git.
>>
>>
>> I believe it would be best to talk with Richard, as the person
>> managing the repos and the fossil serving them. There might be some
>> way of bypassing the defenses.
>>
>> Some discussion at https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forumpost/6c9c86ef97
>>
>>> The alternative is that I manually copy the tarballs to my own site and
>>> adjust the script to download from there. But that would be quite
>>> inconvenient.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Happy Tcling,
>> Andreas Kupries and...@gm...
>>
>> https://core.tcl-lang.org/akupries/
>>
>> https://akupries.tclers.tk/
>>
>> Developer @ SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
> 

Re: [TCLCORE] My script can no longer download tarballs from the core server

[Richard H. <dr...@sq...>]

We can drop the defenses on the TCL servers as much as you want, or as much as you think your cloudflare frontend can handle.  Know this for certain:  Without defenses, the new AI robots will go through and systematically download tarballs for every single check-in in the complete history of the project.  A single tarball takes about 10 seconds of CPU time just to run the zlib compression - not even counting the work needed to assemble the files for the tarball.  This will happen multiple times per day, or per hour.  The robot download rate seems to be growing.

I have the SQLite repository set up so that it only allows robot-fetches of tarballs that following this pattern:

```
https://sqlite.org/src/tarball/release/HASH/NAME.tar.gz
```

Here HASH is really any symbolic name for the specific check-in.  It can be a SHA3 hash, or it can be a date/time stamp, or a symbolic name.  That doesn't matter.  But the /release/ that comes immediately before HASH means that the specific check-in must be tagged with "release".  My servers (and cache) can handle the load of delivering tarballs of releases.

Y'all want me to set up something similar for TCL?  Would that resolve the issue?

Or y'all can do this yourselves (if you have Admin privilege on the repositories) by visiting <https://core.tcl-lang.org/tcl/setup_robot> and entering an appropriate regexp in the "Exceptions to anti-robot restrictions" box.  The instructions give you an example, which is in fact the regexp I use for SQLite.

Wait a sec...  I'm looking at robot defenses page for TCL now.  It looks like somebody already has robot restrictions for tarballs turned off via the "Do not allow robots access to these pages" GLOB pattern.  What URL is not working for your scripts, exactly?

--
D. Richard Hipp
dr...@sq...


On Sunday, October 5th, 2025 at 1:18 PM, Andreas Kupries <and...@gm...> wrote:

> > Hi all,
> > 
> > When I try to download and unpack a tarball from the core server using
> > wget, I get a complaint from gzip: not in gzip format.
> 
> > Looking at the downloaded data, it is actually an html page that
> > contains (among other things) a remark: "You appear to be a robot".
> > Well, yes. This is an automated build script. That could be considered a
> > robot. But is that bad?
> 
> > I understand this happens due to misbehaving AI bots. But is there
> > anything that can be done to make automated tarball downloads for
> > legitimate use possible again? It makes no sense to me to have to clone
> > a whole repository when I just need a single release. It doesn't look
> > like fossil has the concept of a shallow clone similar to git.
> 
> 
> I believe it would be best to talk with Richard, as the person
> managing the repos and the fossil serving them. There might be some
> way of bypassing the defenses.
> 
> Some discussion at https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forumpost/6c9c86ef97
> 
> > The alternative is that I manually copy the tarballs to my own site and
> > adjust the script to download from there. But that would be quite
> > inconvenient.
> 
> 
> --
> Happy Tcling,
> Andreas Kupries and...@gm...
> 
> https://core.tcl-lang.org/akupries/
> 
> https://akupries.tclers.tk/
> 
> Developer @ SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP 729

[Steve L. <st...@di...>]

On 2 Oct 2025 at 1:16 AM +0800, Csaba Nemethi <csa...@t-...>, wrote:
> This is a CFV for TIP 729: Add a tk attribtable command to the core.
>
> https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/729.md

TIP 729: YES

-- Steve

Re: [TCLCORE] My script can no longer download tarballs from the core server

[Schelte B. <tc...@tc...>]

On 05/10/2025 19:18, Andreas Kupries wrote:
> I believe it would be best to talk with Richard, as the person
> managing the repos and the fossil serving them. There might be some
> way of bypassing the defenses.
> 
> Some discussion athttps://fossil-scm.org/forum/forumpost/6c9c86ef97
> 
That is very interesting. Thanks for pointing me to that discussion. I 
had assumed that this robot defense mechanism was implemented by 
cloudflare and therefor I expected it to be the same for all core 
repositories.

Now that I understand it is a fossil feature, I looked around and found 
the fossil robot defense settings page. I subsequently found that that 
setting is slightly different on different repositories. I initially ran 
into the problem with the tcltls repository. This has robot-restrict set to:
	timelineX,diff,annotate,zip,fileage,file,finfo,reports

The tcl repository on the other hand actually allows downloading a 
tarball with wget. It has this in the robot-restrict property:
	timeline,*diff,vpatch,annotate,blame,praise,dir,tree

I suspected the absence of zip here is what allows the tarball download. 
When I removed that tag from the setting in the tcltls repository I was 
indeed able to download a tarball with wget again.

Please let me know if anybody considers this an unacceptable risk. Then 
I will restore the original setting and possibly add some pattern to the 
robot-exception property. Otherwise I would like to keep it this way.


Thanks,
Schelte.

Re: [TCLCORE] My script can no longer download tarballs from the core server

[Andreas K. <and...@gm...>]

> Hi all,
> 
> When I try to download and unpack a tarball from the core server using 
> wget, I get a complaint from gzip: not in gzip format.

> Looking at the downloaded data, it is actually an html page that 
> contains (among other things) a remark: "You appear to be a robot". 
> Well, yes. This is an automated build script. That could be considered a 
> robot. But is that bad?

> I understand this happens due to misbehaving AI bots. But is there 
> anything that can be done to make automated tarball downloads for 
> legitimate use possible again? It makes no sense to me to have to clone 
> a whole repository when I just need a single release. It doesn't look 
> like fossil has the concept of a shallow clone similar to git.

I believe it would be best to talk with Richard, as the person
managing the repos and the fossil serving them. There might be some
way of bypassing the defenses.

Some discussion at https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forumpost/6c9c86ef97

> The alternative is that I manually copy the tarballs to my own site and 
> adjust the script to download from there. But that would be quite 
> inconvenient.

-- 
Happy Tcling,
	Andreas Kupries <and...@gm...>
			<https://core.tcl-lang.org/akupries/>
			<https://akupries.tclers.tk/>
	Developer @	SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 733: Add accessibility/screen reader support to Tk

[Kevin W. <kw...@co...>]

Hi Ashok,

Thank you so much for your detailed feedback. Let me add some comments 
below:

On 10/5/25 7:54 AM, apnmbx-public--- via Tcl-Core wrote:
>
> Thanks for this hugely important effort. Some initial observations 
> experimenting with Narrator (I know you recommended a different screen 
> reader). I am contrasting with native application like Notepad and 
> Explorer.
>
Some of what you are seeing below appears to be specific to Narrator. 
Unfortunately, the accessibility situation on Windows is a bit 
fragmented - it is not always possible to get a first-class 
accessibility experience depending on which combination of API's and 
screen readers you are using. Microsoft provides bridges between the 
API's (MSAA and UIA), but apparently they are not seamless. I decided to 
base development on MSAA and NVDA. I'll do more testing with Narrator to 
see if any adjustments are possible, but a lot of the issues you mention 
are not present in NVDA.

> On focus, text, label, entry and spinboxes narrate their content. 
> However, text and entry widgets do not narrate words as they are 
> typed, only letters. Notepad in contrast narrates words as well.
>
The letter-by-letter narration is specific to Windows, apparently. In 
general, selection events trigger narration of text contents. 
Implementing what you describe above will depend on how easily we can 
pinpoint a specific word. I'll review the bindings for that and, if we 
can implement it, will do so.
>
> Only the toplevel entries in a menu bar are narrated, the drop down 
> entries are not even if they are tabbed to get focus.
>
Since Tk menus are native on Windows, I delegated all of that 
functionality to the OS and the accessibility API. NVDA does not have 
this issue.

> Progress bar always narrates “0 percent” irrespective of the actual 
> fraction.
>
This seems like a bug, I will review.
>
> Buttons, radio buttons, checkboxes and treeview nodes do not narrate 
> content. Radio buttons only say selected/not selected. Buttons only 
> says “Button” irrespective of text on button. I don’t know if one has 
> to explicitly use the tk accessible command to set values to narrate 
> for these widgets.
>
These issues seems mostly tied to Narrator. The content of treeviews and 
listboxes are tied to selection events, and internally use MSAA 
childID's for tracking of row/node elements. Narrator is tightly 
integrated with UIA, so may not pick up on some of the more fine-grained 
MSAA details.

> Occasionally see errors like
>
> Invalid window name
>
>     while executing
>
> "::tk::accessible::emit_selection_change .ttkprogress.f.p2"
>
>     ("after" script)
>
> Not sure exactly when it happens. It does not happen on every window 
> deletion.
>
If you can reproduce in a short script, I will review.

> Finally, some nitpicks about command syntax. Following common Tcl 
> practice, perhaps syntax like
>
> tk accessible acc_role window ?value?
>
> to both get and set values would be preferable to separate commands as 
> in the TIP
>
> tk accessible acc_role window value
>
> tk accessible get_acc_role window
>
> And given “acc” is already implied by the command itself, just “role” 
> instead of “acc_role” would suffice.
>
> If you do want to keep two commands separate, renaming the first to 
> set_acc_role would be more symmetric.
>
I am not comfortable with completely removing the get/set logic - 
there's simply too many moving parts to the core API. I can add "set" to 
mirror "get" - that was a decision I went back-and-forth on, and adding 
this back in will mainly involve updating the script code and man page. 
So I will do that.

Thanks again,

Kevin

Re: [TCLCORE] My script can no longer download tarballs from the core server

[<apn...@ya...>]

Perhaps you could just copy from github instead? Something like

wget https://github.com/tcltk/tcl/archive/refs/heads/main.zip

-----Original Message-----
From: Schelte Bron <tc...@tc...> 
Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2025 6:43 PM
To: TclCore <tcl...@li...>
Subject: [TCLCORE] My script can no longer download tarballs from the core
server

Hi all,

When I try to download and unpack a tarball from the core server using 
wget, I get a complaint from gzip: not in gzip format.

Looking at the downloaded data, it is actually an html page that 
contains (among other things) a remark: "You appear to be a robot". 
Well, yes. This is an automated build script. That could be considered a 
robot. But is that bad?

I understand this happens due to misbehaving AI bots. But is there 
anything that can be done to make automated tarball downloads for 
legitimate use possible again? It makes no sense to me to have to clone 
a whole repository when I just need a single release. It doesn't look 
like fossil has the concept of a shallow clone similar to git.

The alternative is that I manually copy the tarballs to my own site and 
adjust the script to download from there. But that would be quite 
inconvenient.


Schelte.



_______________________________________________
Tcl-Core mailing list
Tcl...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core

[TCLCORE] My script can no longer download tarballs from the core server

[Schelte B. <tc...@tc...>]

Hi all,

When I try to download and unpack a tarball from the core server using 
wget, I get a complaint from gzip: not in gzip format.

Looking at the downloaded data, it is actually an html page that 
contains (among other things) a remark: "You appear to be a robot". 
Well, yes. This is an automated build script. That could be considered a 
robot. But is that bad?

I understand this happens due to misbehaving AI bots. But is there 
anything that can be done to make automated tarball downloads for 
legitimate use possible again? It makes no sense to me to have to clone 
a whole repository when I just need a single release. It doesn't look 
like fossil has the concept of a shallow clone similar to git.

The alternative is that I manually copy the tarballs to my own site and 
adjust the script to download from there. But that would be quite 
inconvenient.


Schelte.

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 733: Add accessibility/screen reader support to Tk

[<apn...@ya...>]

Kevin,

 

Thanks for this hugely important effort. Some initial observations
experimenting with Narrator (I know you recommended a different screen
reader). I am contrasting with native application like Notepad and Explorer.

 

On focus, text, label, entry and spinboxes narrate their content. However,
text and entry widgets do not narrate words as they are typed, only letters.
Notepad in contrast narrates words as well.

 

Only the toplevel entries in a menu bar are narrated, the drop down entries
are not even if they are tabbed to get focus.

 

Progress bar always narrates "0 percent" irrespective of the actual
fraction.

 

Buttons, radio buttons, checkboxes and treeview nodes do not narrate
content. Radio buttons only say selected/not selected. Buttons only says
"Button" irrespective of text on button. I don't know if one has to
explicitly use the tk accessible command to set values to narrate for these
widgets.

 

Occasionally see errors like

 

Invalid window name

    while executing

"::tk::accessible::emit_selection_change .ttkprogress.f.p2"

    ("after" script)

 

Not sure exactly when it happens. It does not happen on every window
deletion.

 

Finally, some nitpicks about command syntax. Following common Tcl practice,
perhaps syntax like

 

tk accessible acc_role window ?value?

 

to both get and set values would be preferable to separate commands as in
the TIP

 

tk accessible acc_role window value

tk accessible get_acc_role window

 

And given "acc" is already implied by the command itself, just "role"
instead of "acc_role" would suffice.

 

If you do want to keep two commands separate, renaming the first to
set_acc_role would be more symmetric.

 

Kudos again for this work,

 

/Ashok

 

 

Re: [TCLCORE] Biweekly meetup tomorrow

[Jan N. <jan...@gm...>]

For me it is also not possible to attend this time.

       Jan Nijtmans

Op zo 5 okt 2025, 12:57 schreef apnadkarni--- via Tcl-Core <
tcl...@li...>:

> As a reminder, the biweekly online meet is scheduled for tomorrow Monday,
> 12PM UTC.
>
>
>
> However, I am not available to attend this one or the next.
>
>
>
> /Ashok
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core
>

[TCLCORE] Biweekly meetup tomorrow

[<apn...@ya...>]

As a reminder, the biweekly online meet is scheduled for tomorrow Monday,
12PM UTC.

 

However, I am not available to attend this one or the next.

 

/Ashok

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP 727

[Jan N. <jan...@gm...>]

Op do 25 sep 2025 om 19:13 schreef Csaba Nemethi:
> This is a CFV for TIP 727: Add a ttk::toggleswitch widget to the core.
>
>      https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/727.md

TIP #727:  YES

Regards,
       Jan Nijtmans

Re: [TCLCORE] Reminder: Voting on TIPs 727 and 729

[Marc C. <cul...@gm...>]

TIP 727: YES

- Marc

On Fri, Oct 3, 2025 at 6:02 AM Csaba Nemethi <csa...@t-...>
wrote:

> This is just to remind you that:
>
> - The voting on TIP 727 (Add a ttk::toggleswitch widget to the core)
> will end tomorrow (Sunday) at 24:00 UTC.
>
>      https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/727.md
>
> - The voting on TIP 729 (Add a tk attribtable command to the core) is in
> progress and will end on next Friday at 24:00 UTC.
>
>      https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/729.md
>
> Best regards,
>
> Csaba
>
> --
> Csaba Nemethi  https://www.nemethi.de  mailto:csa...@t-...
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core
>

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 733: Add accessibility/screen reader support to Tk

[Kevin W. <kw...@co...>]

<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Hi Nicolas,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">This is a good resource:</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div style="display: block;" class=""><div style="-webkit-user-select: all; -webkit-user-drag: element; display: inline-block;" class="apple-rich-link" draggable="true" role="link" data-url="https://support.apple.com/guide/voiceover/welcome/mac"><a style="border-radius:10px;font-family:-apple-system, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;display:block;-webkit-user-select:none;width:300px;user-select:none;-webkit-user-modify:read-only;user-modify:read-only;overflow:hidden;text-decoration:none;" class="lp-rich-link" rel="nofollow" href="https://support.apple.com/guide/voiceover/welcome/mac" dir="ltr" role="button" draggable="false" width="300"><table style="table-layout:fixed;border-collapse:collapse;width:300px;background-color:#76716D;font-family:-apple-system, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class="lp-rich-link-emailBaseTable" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="300"><tbody><tr><td vertical-align="center" align="center"><img style="width:300px;filter:brightness(0.97);height:201px;" width="300" height="201" draggable="false" class="lp-rich-link-mediaImage" alt="688187e496b8d0ae6cde86a68366ad3e.png" src="cid:5305CF78-8A87-4610-810F-1D9117EEAD19"></td></tr><tr><td vertical-align="center"><table bgcolor="#76716D" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="300" style="table-layout:fixed;font-family:-apple-system, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;background-color:rgba(118, 113, 109, 1);-apple-color-filter:initial;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:8px 0px 8px 0px;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar-textStackItem"><div style="max-width:100%;margin:0px 16px 0px 16px;overflow:hidden;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar-textStack"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:500;font-size:12px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar-textStack-topCaption-leading"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://support.apple.com/guide/voiceover/welcome/mac" style="text-decoration: none" draggable="false"><font color="#FFFFFF" style="color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 1);">VoiceOver User Guide for Mac</font></a></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;font-weight:400;font-size:11px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-align:left;" class="lp-rich-link-captionBar-textStack-bottomCaption-leading"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://support.apple.com/guide/voiceover/welcome/mac" style="text-decoration: none" draggable="false"><font color="#FFFFFF" style="color: rgba(235, 235, 245, 0.6);">support.apple.com</font></a></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div></div><br></div><div dir="ltr">I’d try running the widget demo with VoiceOver enabled.&nbsp;</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Code review is also fine.&nbsp;</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thanks,</div><div dir="ltr">Kevin</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Oct 3, 2025, at 11:57 AM, nicolas bats &lt;sl1...@gm...&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi,<div>I can test your code but you'll need to teach me a little bit what to test</div><div>I don't do any voiceOver on my machine or things like that...</div><div>so if you tell me what to test and how to test, I can.</div><div><br></div><div><a class="gmail_plusreply" id="plusReplyChip-0">++</a><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le&nbsp;ven. 3 oct. 2025 à&nbsp;17:55, Kevin Walzer &lt;<a href="mailto:kw...@co...">kw...@co...</a>&gt; a écrit&nbsp;:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi folks,<br>
<br>
Just a follow-up request for feedback on this TIP. Jan has done a bit of cleanup of my code (thanks Jan!) and I’ve had a bit of user feedback from the Python/Tkinter community. But I was hoping to see a bit of discussion before calling for a vote. <br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
<br>
&gt; On Sep 24, 2025, at 10:15 PM, Kevin Walzer &lt;<a href="mailto:kw...@co..." target="_blank">kw...@co...</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; After 18 months of work, I am ready to invite review and testing of TIP 733, adding accessibility/screen reader support to Tk: <a href="https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/733.md" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/733.md</a>. This TIP proposes to provide out-of-the-box accessibility in Tk on all three major platforms - X11, Windows and macOS. There is a detailed API for customization, but the design of the tk accessible command set is intended to make accessibility "just work" with little effort required by the developer.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This feature has long been requested in Tk - I found mailing list and Wiki entries going back two decades - but no one has implemented it. It's been a long-standing wish of mine to tackle this project, but I did not feel capable of completing the project until the past year because of its complexity. My experience level, understanding of Tk and various platform API's, and the emergence of new developer tools have made it possible for me to finally take this on.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The goal is to integrate this new command set into Tk 9.1, and I hope I have completed this project draft in time for consideration. Because this is a large addition to Tk, I am not looking for a rapid TIP process - I'd love feedback and, especially, suggestions (and code to implement suggested changes if possible).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Looking forward to your feedback.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Kevin<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tcl-Core mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tcl...@li..." target="_blank">Tcl...@li...</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 733: Add accessibility/screen reader support to Tk

[nicolas b. <sl1...@gm...>]

Hi,
I can test your code but you'll need to teach me a little bit what to test
I don't do any voiceOver on my machine or things like that...
so if you tell me what to test and how to test, I can.

++

Le ven. 3 oct. 2025 à 17:55, Kevin Walzer <kw...@co...> a écrit :

> Hi folks,
>
> Just a follow-up request for feedback on this TIP. Jan has done a bit of
> cleanup of my code (thanks Jan!) and I’ve had a bit of user feedback from
> the Python/Tkinter community. But I was hoping to see a bit of discussion
> before calling for a vote.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kevin
>
> > On Sep 24, 2025, at 10:15 PM, Kevin Walzer <kw...@co...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > After 18 months of work, I am ready to invite review and testing of TIP
> 733, adding accessibility/screen reader support to Tk:
> https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/733.md. This TIP proposes to
> provide out-of-the-box accessibility in Tk on all three major platforms -
> X11, Windows and macOS. There is a detailed API for customization, but the
> design of the tk accessible command set is intended to make accessibility
> "just work" with little effort required by the developer.
> >
> > This feature has long been requested in Tk - I found mailing list and
> Wiki entries going back two decades - but no one has implemented it. It's
> been a long-standing wish of mine to tackle this project, but I did not
> feel capable of completing the project until the past year because of its
> complexity. My experience level, understanding of Tk and various platform
> API's, and the emergence of new developer tools have made it possible for
> me to finally take this on.
> >
> > The goal is to integrate this new command set into Tk 9.1, and I hope I
> have completed this project draft in time for consideration. Because this
> is a large addition to Tk, I am not looking for a rapid TIP process - I'd
> love feedback and, especially, suggestions (and code to implement suggested
> changes if possible).
> >
> > Looking forward to your feedback.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core
>

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 733: Add accessibility/screen reader support to Tk

[Kevin W. <kw...@co...>]

Hi folks,

Just a follow-up request for feedback on this TIP. Jan has done a bit of cleanup of my code (thanks Jan!) and I’ve had a bit of user feedback from the Python/Tkinter community. But I was hoping to see a bit of discussion before calling for a vote. 

Thanks!

Kevin

> On Sep 24, 2025, at 10:15 PM, Kevin Walzer <kw...@co...> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> After 18 months of work, I am ready to invite review and testing of TIP 733, adding accessibility/screen reader support to Tk: https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/733.md. This TIP proposes to provide out-of-the-box accessibility in Tk on all three major platforms - X11, Windows and macOS. There is a detailed API for customization, but the design of the tk accessible command set is intended to make accessibility "just work" with little effort required by the developer.
> 
> This feature has long been requested in Tk - I found mailing list and Wiki entries going back two decades - but no one has implemented it. It's been a long-standing wish of mine to tackle this project, but I did not feel capable of completing the project until the past year because of its complexity. My experience level, understanding of Tk and various platform API's, and the emergence of new developer tools have made it possible for me to finally take this on.
> 
> The goal is to integrate this new command set into Tk 9.1, and I hope I have completed this project draft in time for consideration. Because this is a large addition to Tk, I am not looking for a rapid TIP process - I'd love feedback and, especially, suggestions (and code to implement suggested changes if possible).
> 
> Looking forward to your feedback.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kevin
> 
> 
>