Re: [studs-devel] rebuttal to blog post

[Dan A. <dan...@gm...>]

Well, let me answer some of those questions because I feel that I have
good answers.  Oh, and don't worry about offending me.  I am a
programmer and thus have extremely thick skin ;)

Why a Struts port in PHP?  Several reasons.  When I first got into MVC
and read about Struts I thought to myself, that would be nice, if I
had access to a servlet container, but I didn't (for deployment
purposes, not for development).  I thought to myself, if I had this
for PHP, I could make my website using it today.  Then, one day, when
I do have access to a servlet container, all my ideas will translate. 
The transition would have been very smooth.  The PHP version is like
the training wheels.  Now, I realize it is possible to get java
hosting, but it would still require an ISP change.  Later on, I found
even more reason since working with java servlets on a shared web
hosts is a HUGE pain.  I already loved PHP, and I wanted to stick with
it.

Okay, so I start working on the port, and it is hard.  There was a lot
of work to go into it.  Why didn't I quit?  Several reasons again.  I
had never taken a project from start to finish and made it a top-level
sourceforge project.  This was my chance.  I needed it and it seemed
interesting.  As I was working along, I found TONS of bugs in Tomcat
and Struts, which I contributed back to the community.  I was reading
all through the Tomcat code and it was amazing to see how it all
worked.  The challenge was translating that to another language, which
required a whole other level of understanding.  Today, I know the
servlet container almost as well as the people who developed it. 
Ditto for Struts.  That understanding is without value.

Okay, that makes sense, but what benefit is it to PHP?  Look, PHP
frameworks are shit.  Most of the code out there is shit.  Now, that
is not to say that the programs around good in respect to what they
are trying to accomplish.  phpBB code is horrid.  Why does this
happen?  Well, even with all the frameworks in Java, at least they all
share something in common.  They all run in a standard container
environment, handling sessions the same, importing classes the same,
do error handling the same.  Point is, there is a standard base.  PHP
has no standard base.  PEAR is not it.  My hopes are to strike up
something to this effect.  Studs is a prototype.  There are so many
libraries that can be used as standalone, it probably makes up 75% of
what you download.

Was it worth it?  You bet.  If only from the standpoint of a learning
experience, it was invaluable.  I learned how to look at a project,
swallow it, and make it happen.  The whole lifecycle.  I'm proud of my
work.  I will use it.  Others can choose as they may, that is why it
is open sourced.  Rails could EASILY be made using Studs MVC
Framework+.  Just implement HttpServlet and go from there.  Maybe I
will look into it.  Struts is not the end all solution to MVC, but it
is a damn good starting point.

One last point.  You mentioned that it would be better to not have a
configuration file and just use some sort of reflection on the action
to get the class, etc.  I actually started that way with Studs and it
is in the early code.  I went back and implemented struts-config.xml
support because my goal was to create a stepping stone for PHP
developers moving to Java.  I could easily make a framework which
extends Studs and cuts out this configuration file dependency.

Oh, sorry, another last point.  Every PSP page is just a PHP page on
drugs.  With no taglibs or JSTL syntax, it just compiles as itself. 
So in all reality, one could use Studs either was Model 1 or Model 2. 
You don't HAVE to create an Action, etc.

Dan


On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:48:15 +0200, Balazs Fejes <fb...@gm...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> thanks for going through my points.
> Can I ask you what you see as the benefits of this framework?
> I think if you want to do it the "cleanly architected" way, you might
> as well use Struts and JSTL.
> I thought the benefit of PHP would be exactly the opposite -
> simplicity (even at the expense of the architecture).
> What are your thoughts on the more radical approach of Rails? You must
> look at it when thinking about MVC frameworks. Maybe this would be a
> worthwhile project to clone in PHP rather than Struts :-)
> 
> I went through my post and it came off very agressive. Sorry about
> that, but I felt like someone is putting in an incredible effort into
> something that is not worth it.
> 
> Best regards,
> Balazs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:37:45 -0400, Dan Allen <dan...@gm...> wrote:
> > In case you were interested, I am listening ;)
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: dan...@mo... <dan...@mo... >
> > Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:33:16 -0700 (PDT)
> > Subject: [studs-devel] rebuttal to blog post
> > To: stu...@li...
> >
> > The following post showed up on the internet the other day about how Studs
> > fails to be noteworthy.  While I disagree, one can never pass up the
> > opportunity to improve on one's work.  So let's talk.
> >
> > "it seems that Studs takes the most annoying aspects of Struts
> > development, and castrates the quick development process of PHP.
> >
> >     * web.xml required with Servlet registration, etc.
> >     * PHP Server Pages??? custom View language
> >     * tld files, property files
> >     * struts-config.xml
> >     * restarting/reloading is often neccessary??"
> >
> > 1. web.xml is a very important part of this project's philosophy because
> > it is standard and it is familiar.  While I definitely like to think
> > outside of the box, not all users will want to learn yet another
> > configuration environment.  web.xml gives the flexibility of tools
> > support, documentation and standarization.  Besides, most users won't even
> > touch it, opting to take the standard configuration.  So I don't think it
> > is an issue to the user.  It is more for the framework developer.
> >
> > 2. PHP Server Pages...yes.  No one can deny the simplicity of JSTL,
> > especially in PHP, which lacks object dereferencing.  I tried initially to
> > use PHP as the template language and it was FAR too verbose!  I believe
> > Smarty is plain riduculous, because it is just another flavor of PHP.
> > Phase is slick.
> >
> > 3. tld files are more or less superficial, mostly just for documentation
> > purposes.  The developer doesn't even have to know about them, except when
> > creating custom tags.  properties files are completely naturally in most
> > programs anyway, so I am not sure what the complaint is here.  You need to
> > configure the program SOMEHOW!
> >
> > 4. struts-config.xml...YES.  Standard, has tools support, very familiar to
> > a large number of developers, lot's of online tutorials.  We are
> > leveraging existing knowlege here folks.  However, I recognize Struts has
> > its limitations and we are going to be going off on a tangent a bit to
> > integrate them, perhaps tossing back the ideas to Struts.  DTDs are VERY
> > limiting in this case because changing the DTD breaks the program when it
> > doesn't have to.  I haven't broken the DTD yet, but it won't be long I
> > bet.  We can talk.
> >
> > 5. restarting/reloading will go away.  PSP already reloads,
> > struts-config.xml just needs to in a few releases.  I have plans for this,
> > just haven't gotten to it.  I HATE restarting in J2EE, even though I
> > understand the need for it in that environment.
> >
> > Studs aims to be simple while leveraging existing formats.  This is only
> > inning one.  I wanted to create something that worked and was familiar.  I
> > am open to extensions and improvements.  Hell, you can leverage all the
> > tools save Studs to implement another popular MVC framework if you would
> > like.  That is the benefit of the "+" part.  You can use the framework to
> > do something totally different than Studs.  I just needed to port Struts
> > for my own use, but feel free to jump in!
> >
> > One point I agree on is that PHP programs are ugly.  Many programs are
> > just glorified perl scripts.  Studs seeks to add some maturity to the PHP
> > community by laying out some standards so that programs can be shared more
> > easily.  Studs definitely does not slow you down.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: thawte's Crypto Challenge Vl
> > Crack the code and win a Sony DCRHC40 MiniDV Digital Handycam
> > Camcorder. More prizes in the weekly Lunch Hour Challenge.
> > Sign up NOW http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;10740251;10262165;m
> > _______________________________________________
> > studs-devel mailing list
> > stu...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/studs-devel
> >
> >
> > --
> > Open Source Advocacy
> > http://www.mojavelinux.com
> >
> 
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> Balazs
> 



-- 
Open Source Advocacy
http://www.mojavelinux.com