starmap2-devteam Mailing List for StarMap 2: Galactic Creation
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:39:11
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20 To: Trace Kern=20 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:42 PM Subject: Odds and ends Trace- don't worry about the info you give me. Also don't assume my = first reaction is my final one. I'm pretty adaptive- in this case, as I = dug further into the code, my picture of things changed. Put another = way, my ego may get the better of me sometimes, but it usually gets into = check sooner or later- usually sooner (I hope). =20 We're in the planning phase, not an implementation phase, so this is = really the place where I should be figuring out exactly (or at least = more clearly) what it is you and other potential users want. We can = match that up against my abilities and those of others who may want to = contribute, and work out how things go from there. =20 It's not unusual for me to rush into things- especially if it means = writing code (can't help it, I enjoy doing it). But I hate to waste = time writing stuff that never gets used... =20 I'm going to put together some docs on what I understand so far and post = them for critique on SF, then post a news item asking for feedback. = Let's see where that gets us. Or I'll do something like that, anyway... =20 I get some sense there's more than one view of the tool at this point- = you talk about "Tabletop" games, where others sound like they want = web-based multiplayer stuff. =20 I also don't understand how the game master uses this tool-- actually in = your case, maybe I do- you use it to create and maintain a map of the = world you and the other players are in, and want to add notes to it = (creatures encountered, challenges solved and unsolved etc) attached to = particular map "places". But a lot of the game play occurs outside the = computer (that's one of the things I was having trouble sorting out as I = looked at the tool). I also see menus where bitmaps or pictures are = attached to places. =20 At any rate, there's an "open discussion" forum on SourceForge, and if = it won't blow your budget, I was thinking it might make more sense to = carry on more of our discussions there than over email as we've done. = More people can read it and add additional info, which I think would be = helpful at this point. =20 'Sall right? =20 One last thing- are the email lists you refer to the ones you mailed me = items from? It would help if you put something up there asking people = who want to contribute ideas, etc. to use the SourceForge forums for = open discussion, etc. Or even to submit documents, if they're so = inclined (they can be uloaded through a link from the project summary = page). On the one hand, I'd like to get as much info as I can at this = point. On the other, I'd rather let SF hold all that info, rather than = my own computer's email client... |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:39:09
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Trace Kern=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:21 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool --- In rpg-tools@y..., eykd@y... wrote: > First off, didn't mean to ignore your posts, Trace. I seem to only=20 be > getting half the posts by email, so I'll start checking the group > itself now. I'm a bit behind too on group vs email posts..Ohwell... > --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > > Once that's doen, he says in a day or two, we can move on to=20 > > adding/upgrading features and other issues such as web-apps or=20 cross- > > platform. >=20 > This sounds good. How long is this port going to take? Well Robert, my developer on the project, said he should have a=20 straight port of StarMap's features into VBasic in a day or two. We'll use that as a jumping off point. >=20 > This is great-- I really believe that Open Source is the way to go, > especially with small, limited userbase projects like this. And my > hope is that we can all work together to get it right-- I'm with you > guys all the way. =20 Well even though it seems StarMap 2 might fill a void noone knew was=20 there, I still don't think I'm up for, or it's worth it,=20 commercialization. So it's Open Source and free. > I'm signed on the list now. The question, I suppose, is how much of > this conversation should we maintain on rpg-tools, and how much=20 should > we carry over there? Well, because Robert isn't on this group, I'd suggest that we do most=20 of the discussion over on the project list. Or at the least any=20 relevant discussion be forwarded to the project list. Anyone who wants to actively contribute to StarMap 2 *should* join=20 the project list, but keep in mind that since it is a rather small=20 coding project I'm only gonna have Robert do the actual coding. > StarMap is great-- the name is a lot less important than the=20 product. > We can always talk about it some more once we move on beyond the > initial port. OpenSphere (http://eykd.net/open/) is pretty much=20 just > some notes and a few pages of Perl, all of which I'll be happy to > contribute. OpenSphere, as I've envisioned it, is less of a > stand-alone application, and more of a network-based universe > creation/campaign management tool, I suppose. But the idea is=20 muddy, > and subject to change a lot as I learn more about what is possible=20 (or > impossible). > I'll start brainstorming ideas for feature requests. I read over OpenSphere, and it's a cool idea, just not what I intend=20 for StarMap 2. My suggestion is stick with StarMap 2 for now, then=20 when we've got something working, start your own project on=20 OpenForge, recruit a programmer on there (I got four offers the day=20 *after* I sent my request for help, and I know squat about=20 programming), and use the StarMap 2 code as a basis for OpenSphere. But whatever works for you...See ya around! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:39:05
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: ey...@ya...=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:10 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool First off, didn't mean to ignore your posts, Trace. I seem to only be getting half the posts by email, so I'll start checking the group itself now. --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Once that's doen, he says in a day or two, we can move on to=20 > adding/upgrading features and other issues such as web-apps or cross- > platform. This sounds good. How long is this port going to take? > Keep in mind that because I'm working through SourceForge, everything=20 > my project ends up with will be open source (not that I'd make this=20 > tool commercial anyways), so if you don't like the final spin I end=20 > up with, you are more than welcome to take the code and make yer own=20 > version. This is great-- I really believe that Open Source is the way to go, especially with small, limited userbase projects like this. And my hope is that we can all work together to get it right-- I'm with you guys all the way. =20 I'm signed on the list now. The question, I suppose, is how much of this conversation should we maintain on rpg-tools, and how much should we carry over there? > Finally, as for the name. I allready got permission from Jim, the=20 > origonal author of StarMap, to use both the source and name of=20 > StarMap for the 2.00 project. But I'd like to hear more about your=20 > OpenSphere project? StarMap is great-- the name is a lot less important than the product. We can always talk about it some more once we move on beyond the initial port. OpenSphere (http://eykd.net/open/) is pretty much just some notes and a few pages of Perl, all of which I'll be happy to contribute. OpenSphere, as I've envisioned it, is less of a stand-alone application, and more of a network-based universe creation/campaign management tool, I suppose. But the idea is muddy, and subject to change a lot as I learn more about what is possible (or impossible). I'll start brainstorming ideas for feature requests. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:39:03
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:59 AM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Yes, I created the StarMap2 project on SourceForge, and I've allready=20
got a programmer working on it. We're concentrating first on just=20
doing a Windows port of the origonal StarMap, and from there he'll=20
have a better understanding of how the package works under the new=20
format.
Once that's doen, he says in a day or two, we can move on to=20
adding/upgrading features and other issues such as web-apps or cross-
platform.
Keep in mind that because I'm working through SourceForge, everything=20
my project ends up with will be open source (not that I'd make this=20
tool commercial anyways), so if you don't like the final spin I end=20
up with, you are more than welcome to take the code and make yer own=20
version.
For now why don't ya sign up to the StarMap2 mailing list and toss=20
out yer ideas. In particular Chris, I'd like to hear about your=20
campaign management tool you said you were thinking about? Since=20
essentially that's one of the major reasons for my starting StarMap 2.
Finally, as for the name. I allready got permission from Jim, the=20
origonal author of StarMap, to use both the source and name of=20
StarMap for the 2.00 project. But I'd like to hear more about your=20
OpenSphere project?
--- In rpg-tools@y..., "Chris Tutty" <Chris.Tutty.egroups@o...> wrote:
> From: "David" <eykd@y...>
> > Please, let's discuss a better way of doing it. I haven't set up=20
a
> > SF project yet, as I realized that I didn't know enough myself to
> > simply charge forward. Let's talk.
> >=20
> Trace has (I think it's his). Search SourceForge for StarMap. Of
> course the first question is whether the project should be called
> OpenSphere but I'll leave that for you and Trace to work out. I
> guess retaining the StarMap name is valid as long as it's a straight
> port. Even if you want to keep your system separate I think we
> can benefit from some shared thinking at this stage. That project=20
> has a mailing list so we should be able to kick around the=20
> nitty-gritty of the technical details there. Especially since I'm=20
only=20
> interested in the cross-platform aspects of the development for
> a larger campaign management tool I've been designing for a
> million years - too busy to contribute programming time.
>=20
> I'd still suggest that any questions about what it should do should
> be raised here or world-create to canvas a wide group of potential
> users.
>=20
> Chris Tutty
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|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:39:01
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Makeover for an old tool
--- Chris Tutty <Chr...@or...> wrote:
> I'd still suggest that any questions about what it should do should
> be raised here or world-create to canvas a wide group of potential
> users.
So let's think of some good questions to ask:
What do we expect out of a good starmapping program? =20
I would expect at least all the good things about Starmap, which we
will need to decide upon. I was especially drawn to the openness to
tweaking-- if the program couldn't manage something, you're welcome
to try it by hand.
What would we like to see? =20
On the mundane level, I'd be excited to see it use the new Hipparcos
star data, which is more accurate and more complete than Gliese 3.0,
and hopefully wouldn't require the statistical fudging that Jim did.=20
Give the hard sf nuts what they want. :)
On a more structural note, I'd like to see some serious generation
tools, from stellar objects on down to planetary composition,
environment, and terrain. I especially want something that can
handle civilizations, both planetary and interstellar.
Most of all, I want tools that help me manage, sort, and make sense
of it all. Starmap couldn't even tell me how far it is from Sol to
Chi Orionis, much less how many starsystems fell under the dominion
of the Empire. Data without the means to organize it into meaningful
order is useless. This is the key to the perfect starmapping
program, imo. Everything else is just flash.
Well, anyone else have ideas?
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
"Indeed you are yourself the only riddle. What you call=20
riddles are truths, and seem riddles because you are not=20
true... They will go on asking themselves until you=20
understand yourself. The universe is a riddle trying to get=20
out, and you are holding your door hard against it."
- from "Lilith," by George MacDonald.
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|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:15
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Yes, I created the StarMap2 project on SourceForge, and I've allready =
got a programmer working on it. We're concentrating first on just doing =
a Windows port of the origonal StarMap, and from there he'll have a =
better understanding of how the package works under the new format.
Once that's doen, he says in a day or two, we can move on to =
adding/upgrading features and other issues such as web-apps or =
cross-platform.
Keep in mind that because I'm working through SourceForge, everything my =
project ends up with will be open source (not that I'd make this tool =
commercial anyways), so if you don't like the final spin I end up with, =
you are more than welcome to take the code and make yer own version.
For now why don't ya sign up to the StarMap2 mailing list and toss out =
yer ideas. In particular Chris, I'd like to hear about your campaign =
management tool you said you were thinking about? Since essentially =
that's one of the major reasons for my starting StarMap 2.
Finally, as for the name. I allready got permission from Jim, the =
origonal author of StarMap, to use both the source and name of StarMap =
for the 2.00 project. But I'd like to hear more about your OpenSphere =
project?
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chris Tutty=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
From: "David" <ey...@ya...>
> Please, let's discuss a better way of doing it. I haven't set up a
> SF project yet, as I realized that I didn't know enough myself to
> simply charge forward. Let's talk.
>=20
Trace has (I think it's his). Search SourceForge for StarMap. Of
course the first question is whether the project should be called
OpenSphere but I'll leave that for you and Trace to work out. I
guess retaining the StarMap name is valid as long as it's a straight
port. Even if you want to keep your system separate I think we
can benefit from some shared thinking at this stage. That project=20
has a mailing list so we should be able to kick around the=20
nitty-gritty of the technical details there. Especially since I'm =
only=20
interested in the cross-platform aspects of the development for
a larger campaign management tool I've been designing for a
million years - too busy to contribute programming time.
I'd still suggest that any questions about what it should do should
be raised here or world-create to canvas a wide group of potential
users.
Chris Tutty
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:13
|
----- Original Message ----- From: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [games - Games Coding Help] RE: Bitmap file format > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> > To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 6:45 PM > Subject: Re: [games - Games Coding Help] RE: Bitmap file format > > > > Actually, I'm comfortable with the standard Windows technologies and > tools. > > I get the impression that SDL and such are good choices if you want to run > > on Linux, Mac OS, etc. There are a lot of differences in how things are > > done, and these packages try to cover that complexity. > > > > For now, I'd prefer to stick to Windows, if that's OK. I'm being > reasonable > > about how the program is constructed, so I think a competent programmer > > could always take what I'm producing and alter the GUI components but > leave > > the issues of how things work otherwise intact. Also, I can get it done > > "quicker" if I can concentrate on understanding what's there. After all > > "there's always version 2"! (OK, 3 in our case). > > Hey, you're the programmer here, I'm just here to 'head' the project and > suggest ideas for how to make 2.0 better than the origonal. If you'd feel > more comfortable sticking with what ya know, cool by me. > I was just passing along any suggestions I was give, but couldn't understand > enough myself to know if they'd be helpful or not. Hehe. > > > So far, I've got a "splash screen" up- it's a nifty photo of the horsehead > > nebula with some text identifying the program as Starmap 2.0 and the old > > "exploring in 3 dimensions" (or whatever it was) centered in the top in > > white. A totally cool graphics guy could blow it away, I'm sure (fades, > > sttreaming video, etc), but to me, it's just a splash screen, and good > > enough for now. It's supposed to stay up while the program loads its > files, > > but at the moment, it just stays up for 5 seconds and vanishes. Might be > a > > waste of time, actually- C is much faster than Basic, and if these files > are > > as simple as they appear to be, that splash time might be pretty small... > > Sounds cool, and don't want to go for fancy anyways, the smaller and simpler > we can keep the final package, without sacrificing features and feeps, the > better in my opinion. > I'd prefer a less flashy program that was quick and easy to download, > install, and get right to using than one with lotsa bells and whistles but > took 40 mins to get going. > > > I was going to create an initial dialog for the main menu, and then > convert > > the code to load the main data files. All that stuff's in the > "Starmap.Bas" > > file, and it's about 20% of the total source in the program. I'll > probably > > finish a lot of that today- I'll just have to see how it goes. > > > > If you think it'd be worthwhile, I can upload at least the binaries > sometime > > soon so we can announce our "progress", and keep those project activity > > scores up there. > > Well, lemme know soon as you have something that works and at least > reasonably does most if not all the stuff the origonal does, and we'll use > that as an Alpha to start from for making changes and improvement. > Should be too hard if the code's as simple as you imply. <grin> > > Once ya have something, go ahead and upload it and I'll check it out. > As for binary package, if you can whip up an installer or at least a > self-extraction package that'd be great. > > Oh yeah, about ICQ, I would suggest grabbing it sometime. I find it rather > handy when trying to get a hold of and talking to someone in real time > rather than playing email tag. Hehe. > > I got yer replies to the RPG-Tools list forwards mixed in with the actual > list traffic, so I'll just summarize my own counter-replies here... > Like I said above, my only point in forwarding those posts to you is cause I > didn't understand em enough myself to know if they'd be helpful ideas or > not, though I do agree with you on one salient point. > Let's stick to just working on a straight port of StarMap for now and worry > about features and feeps later. > > One of the reasons I wanted to start this project is I really like the idea > StarMap represents. I want to be able to use the finished product with > working on a tabletop RPG I'm writing myself. It'd really help me to > organize my brain if I could make maps of the game galaxy, worlds, > governments, etc and have something to visualize with. > > So this really is a 'pet project' as it were, but after all the responses > I've gotten, it looks like the StarMap2 project could be more than my > personal plaything. It looks like this software will end up filling a void > noone realized was there. > Not to say I'll ever make this a commercial project, but I'd like to add a > few more people from the RPG Tools list to the project email list so they > can give a bit of feedback and input. > I'll say right up front though that as Main Developer, you've got final call > in regards to code for the project. They can suggest, but you're the miracle > worker here...Hehe. > > > Talk to ya soon! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Trace Kern" <Tra...@ne...> > > To: "Robert Brix Kjelgaard" <bo...@pr...> > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:56 PM > > Subject: Fw: [games - Games Coding Help] RE: Bitmap file format > > > > > > > Will this be useful to us? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <no...@so...> > > > To: <no...@so...> > > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 12:26 PM > > > Subject: [games - Games Coding Help] RE: Bitmap file format > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read and respond to this message at: > > > > http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=248532 > > > > By: jakobk > > > > > > > > Are you using SDL? If yes, the SDL_image library might be useful. > > > > (http://www.libsdl.org/projects/SDL_image/index.html). > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > You are receiving this email because you elected to monitor this > forum. > > > > To stop monitoring this forum, login to SourceForge and visit: > > > > http://sourceforge.net/forum/monitor.php?forum_id=21009 > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:10
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20
To: Trace Kern=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
No problem. Part of the problem here may be that I'm an OS guy at =
heart, so I like to program "down to the metal". I've used scripting =
languages- IBM used to have one on their manframes called REXX that I =
used for all kinds of cool stuff. But take the time to do the same job =
in C++ and the whole thing flies, speedwise.
=20
Anyway, I think I'd still like to focus for now on a stright pure =
Windows port of the thing. I don't need toolkits or such until we get =
into some of your more challenging features (I'm sure I'll be looking at =
the engines in some of the other projects when it's time to get the =
better terrain, for instance), and even then, I may want to "roll my =
own". I'm not a big subscriber to the "re-inventing the wheel" =
argument- but I think I'll save it for another time. I want to get back =
to coding...
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Yet another thing you might want to look over...Lemme know if I'm =
swamping you with too much info. Just trying to help in whatever way I =
can since I can't program worth crap...Heh.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: man...@cs...=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
ey...@ya... writes:
> - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many
> people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for =
Windows
> apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so.
<snip>
> So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at =
its
> heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and
> perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits?
In recent months I've had a growing appreciation for python (and that
is saying something being previously a pretty hard-core perl
advocate). I believe that this sort of cross-platform tool would be
relatively straight forward to do as a python script... I've heard
tell that tkinter provides a "native look and feel" on windows, macs,
and unicies (though I personally think that the appearance of Tk under
linux is a bit on the ugly side), and pygame provides a slick
interface to SDL which is also available on all three, right? There's
probably a compiler which could generate self-contained binaries for
all "supported" platforms so that joe user wouldn't need to have
python and SDL installed...
The definite downside to a web app like that is that everybody in the
world is dependent on the web server being up and available to use the
program. If the internet is down, can't use it. If the admin decides
to take it down in a couple of years, can't use it. One could
distribute the server side stuff, and then anyone savvy enough to run
his/her own web server could run it locally, but...
If I was going to try and make a little RPG tool at this point, I
would probably go the python / GTK / SDL route, and screw the
cross-platform aspect...or make the GUI dual-headed and use GTK under
Linux and tkinter under MacOS/WinXX. =20
My $0.02.
Another option might be writing a C/C++ program with an FLTK GUI.
Maintaining such a program that runs on both Linux / WinXX is not
difficult (my research project is doing just that right now). I don't
think FLTK has been ported to MacOS though.
Good luck with whatever you decide...
--=20
=
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Matt C. Anderson email: man...@cs...
web: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~manderso
=
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:07
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chris Tutty=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
From: "David" <ey...@ya...>
> Please, let's discuss a better way of doing it. I haven't set up a
> SF project yet, as I realized that I didn't know enough myself to
> simply charge forward. Let's talk.
>=20
Trace has (I think it's his). Search SourceForge for StarMap. Of
course the first question is whether the project should be called
OpenSphere but I'll leave that for you and Trace to work out. I
guess retaining the StarMap name is valid as long as it's a straight
port. Even if you want to keep your system separate I think we
can benefit from some shared thinking at this stage. That project=20
has a mailing list so we should be able to kick around the=20
nitty-gritty of the technical details there. Especially since I'm only=20
interested in the cross-platform aspects of the development for
a larger campaign management tool I've been designing for a
million years - too busy to contribute programming time.
I'd still suggest that any questions about what it should do should
be raised here or world-create to canvas a wide group of potential
users.
Chris Tutty
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:05
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20 To: Trace Kern=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool Well, I agree with some of that- these are the main places I think I = disagree: =20 I think I already mentioned my concern about going multi-platform- I'd = rather solve one or two problems at once, then add to the complexity = once I understand the "domain" or "problem space" better. =20 Coordinating processes (or apps, if you prefer) on Windows isn't all = that hard- you do have to understand multitasking, inter-process = communication and synchronization issues, but they teach that sort of = thing these days- heck they did in the 70's when I was in college... =20 =20 Flat text files are very simple to work with- they're also very simple = to screw up and crash your program. Techies love them- real people who = just want to play a game once in a while don't. There are plenty of = ways to make visually appealing editors for this info, and to store it = in less space. There are also plenty of ways to "modularize" the = program to keep the interface clean. Besides, I'm a professional- an = interface that isn't clean and elegant isn't something I want my name = on, anyway. =20 Along the same lines, I agree that you want people to be able to link in = pieces from other maps, etc. But there are ways to do all of that, even = without text files (or even with them, you just have to understand what = the OS can actually do for you). =20 As far as the structure and design of the software, I should look more = closely before I say something too rash, but so far, I think it's a = specious claim- the code's structured the way it is because of the = limitations of QBasic and DOS, not because it's such a great thing. = It's good solid work, mind you- it's just not groundbreaking in any way. = Of course, I probably spend most of my time dealing with well-written = stuff, and this person may spend a lot of their time with the kind of = stuff you get out of "beginners". (But I was a beginner once too- every = experienced programmer knows the feeling of going back and looking at = something they wrote, and thinking- "was I really that awful?") =20 My last comment is that what he's talking about at the end is a = distributed RPG played over the web. That certainly isn't what this is = at the moment, and I'm not quite ready to go there (that might be a good = place to change programmers or seek to add new ones). =20 For now, I'd like to start by doing essentially a straight "port" of the = existing program. The GUI may not be stellar (no pun intended), and the = features may not have changed, but once I've done that, I'll have a = better feel for how it all REALLY works. At that point, I can talk = about how to break down the design so it's easier to add features, = figure out how to implement more of the features you mention, etc. = Windows has support for technologies (COM/ActiveX/etc) that we can build = into this pretty easily, and they let you do things like add features to = the existing program without screwing it all up. In fact, one reason I = chose C++ is that the language itself has features supporting this kind = of thing. =20 BTW, another option for going multiplayer on the web and using "ASCII = files" is a technology (an internet standard) called SOAP. I've used = toolkits from Microsoft that support it, and (this is more common with = them than you might think) they're free- probably in part because it's a = key part of their .NET (Microsoft monopolizes the web) strategy. We can = do SOAP with Windows-based servers easily enough, and the neat thing is = that it's "clean" enough that you can also make it work on the other = platforms (there are some SF projects already related to all of that). ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Trace Kern=20 To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool In one of my many cries for help, OF wasn't the only place I looked, = it seems I got another valuable bite. Take a look over this email and tell me what you think, as a lot of = what he's talking about is a bit over my head in technical detail. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ey...@ya...=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! This is something I've had on my mind for quite some time. Jim's program is by far the best of its sort that I've ever seen, but no dos app has ever aged very gracefully. The time has definitely come for a successor. The strength of Starmap is its complexity and scalability, especially the way it interlocks smaller programs, and allows for all sorts of flexibility. All the data files are flat ascii dbs, and are well commented, making manipulation by hand or script extremely easy. The problem with Starmap is that there is far far far too much data, and not enough tools to handle it within the main interface. There are no filters, no statistics. Also, once the stars are generated, turning all those stars into a galactic empire is a near superhuman task (at least in my experience, but it might just be my attention span). Also, the DOS thing is an issue, although the interface is remarkably clean and easy to use. The problems can I see with simply taking Starmap and improving it, but for Windows, are: - Environment. I'm speaking outside of my expertise here, but I'm going to assume that it's hard to make separate programs interact within the windows environment, mainly because I've never really seen it happen outside of Microsoft apps. Yet I already have argued that Starmap's strength is its open, sum-of-the-parts approach. - Centralization. One reason why all starmapping programs are hard to work with is that only one person can work on the universe at a time, and transferring data files is a pain. - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so. - Interface. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I haven't seen a Windows starmapping program yet that I liked for its interface. A large part of replacing Starmap would be making sure the interface stays clean and facile. - Complexity. Starmap used flat ascii files to store its data, and while this was easy to edit, it resulted in a /very/ unwieldly directory structure. Also, Starmap's data files were relatively simple-- essentially coordinates and a few other vital statistics.=20 Ideally, we would want to describe stars and planets more completely, but complex data and flat ascii files are poor company. I've seen a starmapping program (I forget which one now) which, while its level of detail was unmatched, had data files which were, dare I say, worse than Gliese 3.0 raw text files in their arcanity and complexity. So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits? - All these tools are open-source and freely available, and promote a modular development approach. =20 - An rpg group that was developing a new universe could all work on the project together. Being networked, you could access it from home, from work, from school, from anywhere. =20 - Mac hacks, Linux gurus, Microsoft junkies and anyone else could have equal access. - SQL servers are robust and would swallow up a universe of reasonable complexity without a burp. No more corrupted data files! I've got some preliminary brainwork residing at "http://eykd.net/open/". I call it "OpenSphere". There's a very basic data structure in MySQL and some incomplete Perl script for generating planets. I welcome anyone, especially programmers, who would be interesting in seeing this sort of thing become reality. Let me know what you think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:00
|
----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [games - Games Coding Help] RE: Bitmap file format > Actually, I'm comfortable with the standard Windows technologies and tools. > I get the impression that SDL and such are good choices if you want to run > on Linux, Mac OS, etc. There are a lot of differences in how things are > done, and these packages try to cover that complexity. > > For now, I'd prefer to stick to Windows, if that's OK. I'm being reasonable > about how the program is constructed, so I think a competent programmer > could always take what I'm producing and alter the GUI components but leave > the issues of how things work otherwise intact. Also, I can get it done > "quicker" if I can concentrate on understanding what's there. After all > "there's always version 2"! (OK, 3 in our case). > > So far, I've got a "splash screen" up- it's a nifty photo of the horsehead > nebula with some text identifying the program as Starmap 2.0 and the old > "exploring in 3 dimensions" (or whatever it was) centered in the top in > white. A totally cool graphics guy could blow it away, I'm sure (fades, > sttreaming video, etc), but to me, it's just a splash screen, and good > enough for now. It's supposed to stay up while the program loads its files, > but at the moment, it just stays up for 5 seconds and vanishes. Might be a > waste of time, actually- C is much faster than Basic, and if these files are > as simple as they appear to be, that splash time might be pretty small... > > I was going to create an initial dialog for the main menu, and then convert > the code to load the main data files. All that stuff's in the "Starmap.Bas" > file, and it's about 20% of the total source in the program. I'll probably > finish a lot of that today- I'll just have to see how it goes. > > If you think it'd be worthwhile, I can upload at least the binaries sometime > soon so we can announce our "progress", and keep those project activity > scores up there. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Trace Kern" <Tra...@ne...> > To: "Robert Brix Kjelgaard" <bo...@pr...> > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:56 PM > Subject: Fw: [games - Games Coding Help] RE: Bitmap file format > > > > Will this be useful to us? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <no...@so...> > > To: <no...@so...> > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 12:26 PM > > Subject: [games - Games Coding Help] RE: Bitmap file format > > > > > > > > > > Read and respond to this message at: > > > http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=248532 > > > By: jakobk > > > > > > Are you using SDL? If yes, the SDL_image library might be useful. > > > (http://www.libsdl.org/projects/SDL_image/index.html). > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > You are receiving this email because you elected to monitor this forum. > > > To stop monitoring this forum, login to SourceForge and visit: > > > http://sourceforge.net/forum/monitor.php?forum_id=21009 > > > > > > > |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:58
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 6:31 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
--- Chris Tutty <Chr...@or...> wrote:
> Hmm. This doesn't seem suited to real-time 3D exploration of the
> data, but I agree with the principles.
One of the problems with my argument is that I write better with
words then I do with code. :) I taught myself Perl so that I could
pre-process some of Starmap's data files, and when I got the idea for
OpenSphere, I learned MySQL to figure out the db structure. I'm
basing my opinions off of that and general coding knowledge gleaned
from years of hobbyism and CS roommates. So...
Please, let's discuss a better way of doing it. I haven't set up a
SF project yet, as I realized that I didn't know enough myself to
simply charge forward. Let's talk.
-David
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
"Indeed you are yourself the only riddle. What you call=20
riddles are truths, and seem riddles because you are not=20
true... They will go on asking themselves until you=20
understand yourself. The universe is a riddle trying to get=20
out, and you are holding your door hard against it."
- from "Lilith," by George MacDonald.
__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:57
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chris Tutty=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Assuming that this conversation will eventually move to the SourceForge=20
project but while we're here...
From: <ey...@ya...>
> - Environment. I'm speaking outside of my expertise here, but I'm
> going to assume that it's hard to make separate programs interact
> within the windows environment, mainly because I've never really seen
> it happen outside of Microsoft apps. Yet I already have argued that
> Starmap's strength is its open, sum-of-the-parts approach.
>=20
It's not too bad. I've built a number of systems that have to interact.
In general these are wrappers for command-line research tools. You
can still use the old text file read/write techniques that used to work=20
under DOS, although I have had problems with this in a network-based
shared-file setting.
A technique that requires more programming skill, but which is very
powerful is to build your components as OCX's. Your interface can
then be built using any RAD tool. Of course I don't think this ports
too well, although the design requirements for OCX implementation
produce code which is modular and has a clearly defined interface
so it should be easy to re-package using whatever modular system
is appropriate for Mac and unix.
> - Centralization. One reason why all starmapping programs are hard to
> work with is that only one person can work on the universe at a time,
> and transferring data files is a pain.
>=20
The degree of this problem depends on the purpose the tool is being
designed for. If it's to build a campaign universe then this doesn't=20
seem to be a problem. If you want to publish that universe for others
to use then the data size is an issue, if you want to allow co-operative
development then you need a tool designed for multiple authors and
that's not a trivial exercise.
> - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many
> people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows
> apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so.
>=20
Agreed. I've been looking at alternatives for a couple of programs
I want to write and it's a difficult question. =20
I think the most valuable shared project we could embark on is to=20
define a development environment that will produce cross-platform
applications. If we can find a set of tools that support this then=20
every project that want's to make it's application widely available
has a running start.
> - Complexity. Starmap used flat ascii files to store its data, and
> while this was easy to edit, it resulted in a /very/ unwieldly
> directory structure. Also, Starmap's data files were relatively
> simple-- essentially coordinates and a few other vital statistics.=20
>=20
At a certain level of complexity a database become useful. This
has portability issues, but tools like MySQL are widely available=20
and should serve as a lowest common denominator.
> So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its
> heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and
> perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits?
>=20
Hmm. This doesn't seem suited to real-time 3D exploration of the
data, but I agree with the principles.
Chris Tutty
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:54
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:16 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
<snip>=20
Okay, I'll reply to both of you who replied to my origonal post in=20
one shot.
I've managed to line up a very skilled C/C++/VBasic/etc programmer=20
and started a project group and website over on SourceForge.
I've forwarded him your posts and he'll look over your suggestions,=20
and he's getting to work today. If either of you are interested in=20
helping out further, lemme know and I'll add you to the SourceForge=20
project staff list.
In any event, my roomate it bugging me to get off the computer now,=20
so I'll wrap this up. Email me at 'Tra...@to...' if you're=20
interested in helping this project further.
Later all!
PS. RE: Logicrucible
I wouldn't mind getting my hands on Terralogicus too. If the company=20
is out of business, I remember a clause in Software COpyright law=20
stating that you *can* give out *free* copies of a program.
Up to you, but if yer willing to make a copy of it, I wouldn't mind=20
checking out that program...What's it like offhand?
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
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=20
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=20
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:52
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Trace Kern=20 To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool In one of my many cries for help, OF wasn't the only place I looked, it = seems I got another valuable bite. Take a look over this email and tell me what you think, as a lot of what = he's talking about is a bit over my head in technical detail. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ey...@ya...=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! This is something I've had on my mind for quite some time. Jim's program is by far the best of its sort that I've ever seen, but no dos app has ever aged very gracefully. The time has definitely come for a successor. The strength of Starmap is its complexity and scalability, especially the way it interlocks smaller programs, and allows for all sorts of flexibility. All the data files are flat ascii dbs, and are well commented, making manipulation by hand or script extremely easy. The problem with Starmap is that there is far far far too much data, and not enough tools to handle it within the main interface. There are no filters, no statistics. Also, once the stars are generated, turning all those stars into a galactic empire is a near superhuman task (at least in my experience, but it might just be my attention span). Also, the DOS thing is an issue, although the interface is remarkably clean and easy to use. The problems can I see with simply taking Starmap and improving it, but for Windows, are: - Environment. I'm speaking outside of my expertise here, but I'm going to assume that it's hard to make separate programs interact within the windows environment, mainly because I've never really seen it happen outside of Microsoft apps. Yet I already have argued that Starmap's strength is its open, sum-of-the-parts approach. - Centralization. One reason why all starmapping programs are hard to work with is that only one person can work on the universe at a time, and transferring data files is a pain. - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so. - Interface. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I haven't seen a Windows starmapping program yet that I liked for its interface. A large part of replacing Starmap would be making sure the interface stays clean and facile. - Complexity. Starmap used flat ascii files to store its data, and while this was easy to edit, it resulted in a /very/ unwieldly directory structure. Also, Starmap's data files were relatively simple-- essentially coordinates and a few other vital statistics.=20 Ideally, we would want to describe stars and planets more completely, but complex data and flat ascii files are poor company. I've seen a starmapping program (I forget which one now) which, while its level of detail was unmatched, had data files which were, dare I say, worse than Gliese 3.0 raw text files in their arcanity and complexity. So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits? - All these tools are open-source and freely available, and promote a modular development approach. =20 - An rpg group that was developing a new universe could all work on the project together. Being networked, you could access it from home, from work, from school, from anywhere. =20 - Mac hacks, Linux gurus, Microsoft junkies and anyone else could have equal access. - SQL servers are robust and would swallow up a universe of reasonable complexity without a burp. No more corrupted data files! I've got some preliminary brainwork residing at "http://eykd.net/open/". I call it "OpenSphere". There's a very basic data structure in MySQL and some incomplete Perl script for generating planets. I welcome anyone, especially programmers, who would be interesting in seeing this sort of thing become reality. Let me know what you think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:52
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Yet another thing you might want to look over...Lemme know if I'm =
swamping you with too much info. Just trying to help in whatever way I =
can since I can't program worth crap...Heh.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: man...@cs...=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
ey...@ya... writes:
> - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many
> people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows
> apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so.
<snip>
> So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its
> heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and
> perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits?
In recent months I've had a growing appreciation for python (and that
is saying something being previously a pretty hard-core perl
advocate). I believe that this sort of cross-platform tool would be
relatively straight forward to do as a python script... I've heard
tell that tkinter provides a "native look and feel" on windows, macs,
and unicies (though I personally think that the appearance of Tk under
linux is a bit on the ugly side), and pygame provides a slick
interface to SDL which is also available on all three, right? There's
probably a compiler which could generate self-contained binaries for
all "supported" platforms so that joe user wouldn't need to have
python and SDL installed...
The definite downside to a web app like that is that everybody in the
world is dependent on the web server being up and available to use the
program. If the internet is down, can't use it. If the admin decides
to take it down in a couple of years, can't use it. One could
distribute the server side stuff, and then anyone savvy enough to run
his/her own web server could run it locally, but...
If I was going to try and make a little RPG tool at this point, I
would probably go the python / GTK / SDL route, and screw the
cross-platform aspect...or make the GUI dual-headed and use GTK under
Linux and tkinter under MacOS/WinXX. =20
My $0.02.
Another option might be writing a C/C++ program with an FLTK GUI.
Maintaining such a program that runs on both Linux / WinXX is not
difficult (my research project is doing just that right now). I don't
think FLTK has been ported to MacOS though.
Good luck with whatever you decide...
--=20
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Matt C. Anderson email: man...@cs...
web: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~manderso
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
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=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:46
|
----- Original Message ----- From: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > Sounds good. Lemme know if there's any info you need from me. Also, here's > my ICQ number so you can try and get a hold of me real-time. > > 38218801 - TracerFox > > Catch ya later! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> > To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 4:47 AM > Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > > > > Thanks, Trace- > > > > I'll start work immediately (since it's 4:30 AM Saturday, here, and the > kid > > won't be up for several hours :)... > > > > This should be a good change of pace. > > > > Bob Kjelgaard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Trace Kern" <Tra...@ne...> > > To: "Robert Brix Kjelgaard" <bo...@pr...> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 8:06 PM > > Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > > > > > > > I've added you to the project admins, and I've put up a bunch of ideas > > into > > > the priject suggestions tracker. Take a look at them and gimme any ideas > > you > > > have as well.... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> > > > To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> > > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:41 PM > > > Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > > > > > > > > > > Hello again, Trace- > > > > > > > > > > > |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:45
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: man...@cs...=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
ey...@ya... writes:
> - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many
> people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows
> apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so.
<snip>
> So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its
> heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and
> perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits?
In recent months I've had a growing appreciation for python (and that
is saying something being previously a pretty hard-core perl
advocate). I believe that this sort of cross-platform tool would be
relatively straight forward to do as a python script... I've heard
tell that tkinter provides a "native look and feel" on windows, macs,
and unicies (though I personally think that the appearance of Tk under
linux is a bit on the ugly side), and pygame provides a slick
interface to SDL which is also available on all three, right? There's
probably a compiler which could generate self-contained binaries for
all "supported" platforms so that joe user wouldn't need to have
python and SDL installed...
The definite downside to a web app like that is that everybody in the
world is dependent on the web server being up and available to use the
program. If the internet is down, can't use it. If the admin decides
to take it down in a couple of years, can't use it. One could
distribute the server side stuff, and then anyone savvy enough to run
his/her own web server could run it locally, but...
If I was going to try and make a little RPG tool at this point, I
would probably go the python / GTK / SDL route, and screw the
cross-platform aspect...or make the GUI dual-headed and use GTK under
Linux and tkinter under MacOS/WinXX. =20
My $0.02.
Another option might be writing a C/C++ program with an FLTK GUI.
Maintaining such a program that runs on both Linux / WinXX is not
difficult (my research project is doing just that right now). I don't
think FLTK has been ported to MacOS though.
Good luck with whatever you decide...
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Matt C. Anderson email: man...@cs...
web: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~manderso
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:42
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----- Original Message -----=20 From: ey...@ya...=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! This is something I've had on my mind for quite some time. Jim's program is by far the best of its sort that I've ever seen, but no dos app has ever aged very gracefully. The time has definitely come for a successor. The strength of Starmap is its complexity and scalability, especially the way it interlocks smaller programs, and allows for all sorts of flexibility. All the data files are flat ascii dbs, and are well commented, making manipulation by hand or script extremely easy. The problem with Starmap is that there is far far far too much data, and not enough tools to handle it within the main interface. There are no filters, no statistics. Also, once the stars are generated, turning all those stars into a galactic empire is a near superhuman task (at least in my experience, but it might just be my attention span). Also, the DOS thing is an issue, although the interface is remarkably clean and easy to use. The problems can I see with simply taking Starmap and improving it, but for Windows, are: - Environment. I'm speaking outside of my expertise here, but I'm going to assume that it's hard to make separate programs interact within the windows environment, mainly because I've never really seen it happen outside of Microsoft apps. Yet I already have argued that Starmap's strength is its open, sum-of-the-parts approach. - Centralization. One reason why all starmapping programs are hard to work with is that only one person can work on the universe at a time, and transferring data files is a pain. - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so. - Interface. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I haven't seen a Windows starmapping program yet that I liked for its interface. A large part of replacing Starmap would be making sure the interface stays clean and facile. - Complexity. Starmap used flat ascii files to store its data, and while this was easy to edit, it resulted in a /very/ unwieldly directory structure. Also, Starmap's data files were relatively simple-- essentially coordinates and a few other vital statistics.=20 Ideally, we would want to describe stars and planets more completely, but complex data and flat ascii files are poor company. I've seen a starmapping program (I forget which one now) which, while its level of detail was unmatched, had data files which were, dare I say, worse than Gliese 3.0 raw text files in their arcanity and complexity. So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits? - All these tools are open-source and freely available, and promote a modular development approach. =20 - An rpg group that was developing a new universe could all work on the project together. Being networked, you could access it from home, from work, from school, from anywhere. =20 - Mac hacks, Linux gurus, Microsoft junkies and anyone else could have equal access. - SQL servers are robust and would swallow up a universe of reasonable complexity without a burp. No more corrupted data files! I've got some preliminary brainwork residing at "http://eykd.net/open/". I call it "OpenSphere". There's a very basic data structure in MySQL and some incomplete Perl script for generating planets. I welcome anyone, especially programmers, who would be interesting in seeing this sort of thing become reality. Let me know what you think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:39
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----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 4:47 AM Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > Thanks, Trace- > > I'll start work immediately (since it's 4:30 AM Saturday, here, and the kid > won't be up for several hours :)... > > This should be a good change of pace. > > Bob Kjelgaard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Trace Kern" <Tra...@ne...> > To: "Robert Brix Kjelgaard" <bo...@pr...> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 8:06 PM > Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > > > > I've added you to the project admins, and I've put up a bunch of ideas > into > > the priject suggestions tracker. Take a look at them and gimme any ideas > you > > have as well.... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> > > To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:41 PM > > Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > > > > > > > Hello again, Trace- > > > > > > |
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:38
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----- Original Message ----- From: tracerfox <clu...@ya...> To: <Tra...@to...> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:30 PM Subject: Re: Programming Project? [Yahoo! Clubs: RPG Writers Club] > Actually not sure what version of QBasic it was written in, but here's the URL to the program zip. Best bet is to fiddle with the program to get familliar with what it can do, then look at the source .BAS files included in the zip. > > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/8023/star.htm > > Also, so we don't spam the list, go ahead and email me privately at 'Tra...@to...' > > --------------------------------------------- > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL! > --------------------------------------------- > You have chosen to receive messages from "RPG Writers Club" by email. > > Reply to this message: > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/rpgwritersclub/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=rpgwriterscl ub&sid=12170546&mid=1992 > > Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list: > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/rpgwritersclub/config/change_mb_list > > Return to "RPG Writers Club": > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/rpgwritersclub > ---------------------------------------------- > > Not a member? Remove yourself from this list: > http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=tracerfox&.gr oupID=rpgwritersclub&.groupType=&.code=DVLBEDGTeH > > |
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:37
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----- Original Message ----- From: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> To: Droakir <dr...@ya...> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 9:59 PM Subject: Re: I checked out the code... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Droakir <dr...@ya...> > To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 9:28 PM > Subject: I checked out the code... > > > > Well, I looked at the code, and a couple of things bother me: > > First, it creates seperate files for each part of the grid. > > Second, the program doesn't have a very obvious command interface. > > Heh, well what did you expect from a program in QBasic written by an amateur > back in 1998...<grin> > And yes, the command interface *is* rather oblique, which is one of the > things I want to change. > > > If you want to rewrite it, we could use the program as the basis, but > > just by looking > > at it, I can tell that it will take a lot of programming. It looks as > > if you'll have to start > > from scratch. > > <nods> That's pretty much what I expected anyways. > There's just only so much you can do with QBasic and DOS. > > > One question: > > Which version of Visual Basic are you thinking of? > > Not familliar with the different versions, so I'll leave this one in your > ballpark. > > > -Droakir > > http://www.geocities.com/droakir > > > > > |
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:35
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----- Original Message ----- From: Droakir <dr...@ya...> To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 9:28 PM Subject: I checked out the code... > Well, I looked at the code, and a couple of things bother me: > First, it creates seperate files for each part of the grid. > Second, the program doesn't have a very obvious command interface. > > If you want to rewrite it, we could use the program as the basis, but > just by looking > at it, I can tell that it will take a lot of programming. It looks as > if you'll have to start > from scratch. > > One question: > Which version of Visual Basic are you thinking of? > > -Droakir > http://www.geocities.com/droakir > > |
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:34
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----- Original Message ----- From: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > I've added you to the project admins, and I've put up a bunch of ideas into > the priject suggestions tracker. Take a look at them and gimme any ideas you > have as well.... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> > To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:41 PM > Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > > > > Hello again, Trace- > > |
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From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:33
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----- Original Message ----- From: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard <bo...@pr...> > To: Trace Kern <Tra...@ne...> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:41 PM > Subject: Re: Still looking for coders? > > > > Hello again, Trace- > > > > I've looked at the stuff- I can certainly do this (even in VB, although > it'd > > be a slower job for me if I did). The original data can be recycled > easily > > enough. I'm not certain I necessarily buy the difficulty of generating > new > > ones, though- what Jim did (and it's a good, thorough piece of work, don't > > get me wrong) is use good live data to create his maps- so they're > > "realistic" in the truest sense. But I imagine some SF RPGer's could care > > less about that. > > I'm just going on what Jim said as far as the difficulty of using the Gliese > star list. Heh. > In any event yes StarMap was intended to use real data, but at the same time > enable you to edit anything you wanted to. > > > On the other hand, that's the whole point of a game generator, anyway- if > > you want to change the playing field, you can. Not every player/game > master > > is going to want to be totally in tune with the cosmological flavor of the > > month. But having :"real" data can be a big plus with some, making this > > public-domain software a nice find. > > Thanks, and to think if I hadn't gotten irritated on some of the drawbacks > to a QBasic progra, this gem woulda sat on the shelf forever. > But that's life and gaming for ya eh? > > > It looks like you're looking for a single programmer on this. If you > think > > I'd be the one, shoot me an email and add me to the project (as an admin, > > you're the one controlling that). It'd also be helpful if you put down > some > > ideas of what you want changed- how you'd like to approach this, etc. > down- > > there's a space for project documentation, which can probably be as simple > > as a text file, or something you whip up with an HTML editor. Or I can > whip > > together some initial take at a GUI version, and you can critique it- I'm > a > > pretty flexible guy... > > Well you're certainly at the top of the list for several reasons: 1.You were > the fastest to respond to the project, including checking out StarMap and > it's source code. 2. You actually *want* to work on this, rather than me > finding a friend and 'coercing' them to help me. Which is where most of my > pet projects land short. > > > I can also document ideas, or bounce a few, if that'd help. But to add > them > > to the SF project pages, either you'll have to add them yourself, or you'd > > have to make me an admin (either works for me). > > Well I do have a short list of features I'd like to change and add to the > package, but other than that, not entierly sure how to go about this since > I'm not a programmer. If you think you can whip up a GUI version of what's > allready there, and you want to, then by all means go ahead. If you do > something like that we can use that as a jumping off point I suppose. > > > I'll switch briefly to sales mode- hope that's not offensive! My company > > essentially sells my time to their customers at about $3 (US) / minute. > > Working on my own, I've successfully sold my time at rates between $1 - > > $1.50 / minute. This is an opportunity for you to get for free what most > > people have to really shell out for. So I really think I'll be one of the > > best chances you'll have to make your project succeed. Not that we'll > need > > it, but I also have my own web site and a legitimate business license > behind > > it. I *always* try to finish what I start, and can't recall a time I > > haven't (except when someone else cancelled, etc). > > > > Hope that didn't sound too arrogant- I'd just like to work on something > like > > this, it would be "fun" for me (I enjoy programming, but I'm not much for > > starting my own projects), so I'm just trying to put the old "best foot > > forward". > > Well, you're the first to give any kind of sales pitch...I'm not used to > people competing to help with my pet projects. Heh. I'm gonna go ahead and > add you to the project site tomorrow, or as soon as I get yer Sourceforge > ID. I'll also add you as an Admin so you can upload files to the project > site.... > > > Anyway, hope to hear from you soon, one way or the other. A final > warning- > > do realize that because of my work, the hours I can put into the project > > will probably vary over time- at the moment, recession and all, things are > > kind of slow, so if we start soon, we can probably have something to show > > people in short order (which is probably one of the best ways to generate > > additional interest in a project, particularly in open-source games). > > I've never pretended to be a patient person where my pet projects are > concerned, so the sooner we get started, the better! > > > Best Regards, > > Bob Kjelgaard > > Pretty Penny Enterprises, LLC (my "off-hours" business identity) > > mail: bo...@pr... > > www: www.prettypennyenterprises.com > > Ph: 425-558-1803 > > |
