soundcomp-develop — For SoundComp internal discussion that is not appropriate in the wiki

[SoundComp-Develop] Frontends anyone?

[<js...@ya...>]

Does anyone of you dare to write front ends to SoundComp?

I don't speak of a command-line tool, we have that already internally.

But for some people, to "play" with it, a GUI front end would be nice.

There's several options on how this could be envisioned - and we could even offer some of them.

Very easy ones would be a simple text editor with a "compile" menu/toolbar entry that compiles the text in the editor, a similar option would be an eclipse addon that does the same.

A more user friendly one would be one that really offers a GUI that allows clicking the process elements and the note events in a graphical way and creates the SoundComp language from it.

I know, the language isn't fixed yet, but the general structure of such a graphical editor could already be done right now, leaving the language details open for filling them in later. For easy extensibility, it requires quite some abstraction.

A crucial property of the graphical editor would be making it two-way, that is, it should not only generate the text from the graphical input but also vice versa. So the user input should be stored simply as SoundComp text, and be reused elsewhere, and SoundComp text edited elsewhere can be loaded without conversion. That makes it more complex, as it requires a deep integration into the parser, to make sure it always uses the same language structure even if that is changed later on. It also requires improving the parser error handling, to have useful reactions to loading obsolete language constructs, for example. So this is more than just a GUI job.

A third possible and probably important "frontend" would be a VST plugin adapter, that lets SoundComp run as plugin under a VST host, on those platforms that have this (Windows, Mac, Linux). This requires spending some thoughts on compatibility to Creative's VST plugin SDK license terms, as we must not publish the files on our own, and should not require all SoundComp users to get a copy of that even if they are not interested in VST technology. Optionally, of course if you take that job, you are free to attempt to convince them to re-license the one or two needed C header files in a LGPL compatible manner :-)

If you appear to have even more frontend ideas, please share them.

If none of you is interested, I would publicly advertize that job, but I'd like to give all of you the chance first. If I receive no positive answer until January 16, I will make the search public (but that does not exclude anyone of you from applying later anyway, of course).

[SoundComp-Develop] Don't panic...

[<js...@ya...>]

--- mfwimi chonya <jun...@gm...> schrieb am Sa, 8.1.2011:

>Anyways, I am writing to let you know I finally managed to start going through the glossary! It is a very interesting topic I must say. Never figured acoustics was this interesting! 

I am glad you find this interesting as I do :-)

> The bad news is that i have forgotten so much i actually need to download some maths books to freshen up! my mind has been decaying since my graduation last year so will need some time before i can do something solid. hope this will not pose a problem seeing as you want something to be done and some kinda progress made!

I do not think so in your case - as the part that I suggested you to take the challenge is not something that is needed that early. The main thing that is needed "right now" is a working parser for a good preliminary language specification - that is what I am looking at the next weeks.
Everything else can come later as most of it will get easily integrated.

And coming to the math part - yes, you will need a bit of it, but I think not too much in your specific case. You first will have to investigate the patent stuff a while to avoid trouble though. A web search on "PSOLA +patent" should give some starters. I just think that the main barrier patent is from 1989 and thus should have expired 2009, and the rest should be something that we should be able to work around. AFAIK some patents are held by open source organizations - if absolutely necessary, one might possibly get cost free licenses there for an open source project. Better would be to avoid any potential conflict at all by implementing it in a non-conflicting way, if possible.

Should you find out there is no way of implementing a PSOLA without patent conflicts and cost-incurring licenses, then we would have to drop that part (which I would really regret as it gives good options) and you would have to do something else (enough tasks to take :-). 

If you find there is already an open-source C/C++ implementation that is somewhat LGPL-compatible and definitely patent-conflict free, we might link to that as an external library (SoundComp should have a generic external library interface anyway at some point). I would rather like to have it on our own, though.

Best regards

Jan

[SoundComp-Develop] Glossary extended. What is missing?

[<js...@ya...>]

For those who are interested, the following terms have been added (maybe more that I forgot to mention):

Chorus
Harmonics
Flanger
Phaser
Waveform

The "phase vocoder" is still missing, it is a bit more complex to explain. If someone feels like wanting to do it, go ahead.

If you have any term that you'd like to get explained, please state so. There's two options that you have then:
- ask me to provide an explanation, I will attempt to do so then.
- better: try to find out about it, and insert it on your behalf. You may notify me about it if you have the suspicion that it might need a more SoundComp specific explanation.

Best regards

Jan

Re: [SoundComp-Develop] Happy new year 2011

[mfwimi c. <jun...@gm...>]

Hi Jan!

First Happy new year! Thanks for the wishes! I had to travel to visit
someone out of necessity! Needless to say it has affected me this whole week
as I only got back sunday evening and back to work at 6.30am Monday morning!
hectic!

Anyways, I am writing to let you know I finally managed to start going
through the glossary! It is a very interesting topic I must say. Never
figured acoustics was this interesting! The bad news is that i have
forgotten so much i actually need to download some maths books to freshen
up! my mind has been decaying since my graduation last year so will need
some time before i can do something solid. hope this will not pose a problem
seeing as you want something to be done and some kinda progress made!

But, I just wanted to let you know overall, i like the project and hope that
I can become a useful contributor soon!it will be a long hard walk but its
one am willing to take!

Thanks again.

Kind Regards,


Phil

[SoundComp-Develop] Happy new year 2011

[<js...@ya...>]

Dear SoundComp team members,

I wish you all a happy new year 2011 (less than 2 hours left of 2010 here now). Hopefully you all will arrive there well...

I hope to see the same kind and speed of process as during the last few weeks (and am looking forward to seeing it coming from more sources as I will have to reduce my share of input again to a certain extent), and I really welcome any input from each of you.

Best regards from southern germany to all of you

Jan

[SoundComp-Develop] Feedback

[<js...@ya...>]

Dear SoundComp team,

Some of you still haven't found the time to mail back their thoughts on the task assignments (I actually got only 2 feedbacks). I have no idea whether it was just ok that way, or whether you were disagreeing.
And since I changed a lot for the build process, I also did not get a feedback about whether you all are really able to checkout and build/run it, or you cannot due to some problem that I do not appear to have.

I kindly request all of you to reply for both matters, so I see what I can improve to help you.

Thanks in advance

Jan

[SoundComp-Develop] Buildfiles changed, manual action needed to the checkouts

[<js...@ya...>]

Hello fellow SoundComp team,

I added some build files to automatically create version information in the DLL (and soon also in the jar). Since you all have a private copy of the build files, the change will not integrate automatically into your project when you update.
You will have to merge the changes of svn revision 228 from the buildfiles directory to your .project file in the main folder.
Optionally you could simply run the configure script after updating to 228 or newer, but that will make you lose any specific local settings you may have made - integrating the few new lines into the .project file with a text editor will probably be less problematic.

Future additions to the jar/dll versioning should not again make changes to private build files necessary.

Should any problems arise, please notify me so we can resolve it soon.

Best regards

Jan

[SoundComp-Develop] wiki rights

[<js...@ya...>]

Hello fellow SoundComp developers,

Ok, I almost had forgot about it.

I kindly requested you to possibly edit pages in the wiki, but I did not supply the corresponding rights. My bad, I deeply apologize.

I corrected that now, so every new team member should now also be able to edit in the wiki. If anyone still has a problem, please report to me personally, I will take care of it.

Thanks in advance

Jan

Re: [SoundComp-Develop] New members and applicants welcome.

[<js...@ya...>]

Hello Macadio,

in the wiki there is a page "getting started on windows". You should refer to that, the described procedure worked when it was written.
There will be necessary changes to the download links (since oracle bought out sun and therefore java, and there are newer eclipse versions) - you are invited to update the relevant links to what is valid today.

Checking out the svn repository is not possible with the browser alone. You will need a svn client as described in the wiki.

If you still have detail questions to the checkout procedure, please address them to me personally (js...@ya...), not to the list, unless you see a general problem that is interesting to all.

Yes, it is easiest to have the tests consistently in java, as these tests then can be automatically executed. Since there exists a transparent layer between our java and C++ parts, you can use all elements from java, regardless of their implementation language. If you are unsure about how these tests are written, there are several examples so I am pretty sure you will get it really fast.

Best regards

Jan

Re: [SoundComp-Develop] New members and applicants welcome.

[Macadio <ma...@gm...>]

Hey Jan,

Im not really clear on what I need to download and work on? I see that
I should check out the SVN files but when I click the browse there are
a bunch of directories and im not sure exactly what needs to be done.
So if you could point me in the right direction I can download and
getting looking at the source and trying to figure out what needs to
be done.

Also what platform is this? looks like most of these files are Java
Files so should I continue to write the the tests in java or use
Visual C++, Visual C# etc..

Thanks,

Macadio

On 12/7/10, js...@ya... <js...@ya...> wrote:
> For all fellow developers and those who would like to become such, I would
> like to direct you to the Milestones page of the wiki.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/soundcomp/index.php?title=Milestones
>
> I assigned a few tasks to certain members. Of course, this is not fixed. If
> someone would like to swap, is interested in a different task for whatever
> reasons, he is invited to tell me, there usually will be no discussion about
> it, we just change it then. All assignments are just proposals from what I
> think could work, according to your application mails and answers.
>
> The last applications have no tasks assigned yet. Everyone is invited to
> look there, what he thinks would suit him, and request assignment (or just
> edit the page and assign himself, will usually be no problem).
>
> Macadio, you wrote you'd like to take the tester/build engineer position. I
> would be happy if it were possible that you take the existing Test class
> methods as a template and write some tests for the ProcessElements that are
> yet untested. This should really not be difficult from the coding side - it
> just might require a bit getting into what the elements are upposed to do.
> If you have any questions about anything, as always, never hesitate to ask.
>
> For all of you, this is a spare time project. I take it serious as I hope
> you all do, but everyone has his private life, other things to do, so nobody
> should get mad if anyone is not able to react to anything in a short amount
> of time. For example, I have a full time job and a family, so it will be the
> case that I will not be able to do anything (not even mails) for a day or
> another. Still, I will take care that we will have some progress.
>
> Best regards
>
> Jan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What happens now with your Lotus Notes apps - do you make another costly
> upgrade, or settle for being marooned without product support? Time to move
> off Lotus Notes and onto the cloud with Force.com, apps are easier to build,
> use, and manage than apps on traditional platforms. Sign up for the Lotus
> Notes Migration Kit to learn more. http://p.sf.net/sfu/salesforce-d2d
> _______________________________________________
> SoundComp-Develop mailing list
> Sou...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/soundcomp-develop
>

[SoundComp-Develop] New members and applicants welcome.

[<js...@ya...>]

For all fellow developers and those who would like to become such, I would like to direct you to the Milestones page of the wiki.

https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/soundcomp/index.php?title=Milestones

I assigned a few tasks to certain members. Of course, this is not fixed. If someone would like to swap, is interested in a different task for whatever reasons, he is invited to tell me, there usually will be no discussion about it, we just change it then. All assignments are just proposals from what I think could work, according to your application mails and answers.

The last applications have no tasks assigned yet. Everyone is invited to look there, what he thinks would suit him, and request assignment (or just edit the page and assign himself, will usually be no problem).

Macadio, you wrote you'd like to take the tester/build engineer position. I would be happy if it were possible that you take the existing Test class methods as a template and write some tests for the ProcessElements that are yet untested. This should really not be difficult from the coding side - it just might require a bit getting into what the elements are upposed to do. If you have any questions about anything, as always, never hesitate to ask.

For all of you, this is a spare time project. I take it serious as I hope you all do, but everyone has his private life, other things to do, so nobody should get mad if anyone is not able to react to anything in a short amount of time. For example, I have a full time job and a family, so it will be the case that I will not be able to do anything (not even mails) for a day or another. Still, I will take care that we will have some progress.

Best regards

Jan

[SoundComp-Develop] Developer documentation

[<js...@ya...>]

Hello fellow SoundComp team members,

to ease joining the coding for everyone, the "Development details" page of the wiki is under edit these days.
In case there are any questions that you would like answered there, or any procedures or concepts explained, do not hesitate to ask so I can clarify it. I am thankful for any issue I get pointed at that I do not think of myself.

In the future, from time to time I will attempt to keep this list up to date with current activities, so it is possible to find out what is happening without browsing through all source and documentation.

Have a nice sunday evening (europe) or whatever time is at your place :-)

Jan

[SoundComp-Develop] Continuing work...

[<js...@ya...>]

Hi fellow project members,

I regret and have to excuse for a longer time span of inactivity, which now is over.

I hope that all of you are still ok, healthy and happy, and I would be glad if you are still interested in assisting me making SoundComp a great music compiler. I am afraid I have to state that one team member has quit earlier this year, to his words not because of the project but due to his private reasons.

In february some unplanned problem I will not discuss distracted me from large parts of my private life (consumed most of my weekend time), including this project.
That problem is now obsoleted, and I already started going on.

During the last days, I went towards the object structure/parser tree stuff and want to go on in this direction at least to the point I have a miniature parser that creates a parse tree and is able to generate SOMETHING USEFUL from it, even if it is only the absolute minimum subset of the language needed to create a single note sound file. If that is done the right way, expanding it to more options should be not too difficult.

My last actions included specifying "object structures" (networks) needed for definition of voices, and a "copier" that copies these structures to allow a template definition be expanded to plural note events with a copy of the structure each (because each note event structure is obliged to keep its own state, because the may and in many cases will overlap=coexist).

Now, mainly on the weekends, I will do some more work on the parser itself, which may mean that it takes a bit longer to commit code (it is more specification thoughts work than actual coding).

The offer (or request) is still valid, anyone that thinks he might take any tasks, just tell. I'd really appreciate not to have to do all design and coding alone, even though it is clear to me that might take me some time to explain some concepts to a deeper depth of detail, which I then gladly will do.

I would appreciate if all of you just at least give the rest a "hello world", even if you may be unable to do anything at the moment, and a short message stating the options you feel you have at the moment for the project.

Thank you in advance

Jan

[SoundComp-Develop] Small coding task anyone?

[<js...@ya...>]

As I have the impression, one of the main speed killers at the moment is the unoptimized java file I/O.

Anyone willing to redo the wave file output in C/C++? The WavStruct class should then also store its double precision data arrays in C and no longer in a Java ArrayList.
An example on how to implement a C-side ProcessElement exists for example with the PinkNoise and PseudoHilbert classes.
Possible simplifications: the channel count is a creation-time constant attribute, the C code needs no provisions for changing channel counts.
Main thing to pay attention to is efficient and clean memory handling, as the data buffers might have to be reallocated from time to time while it is filled, because the sample count is NOT known ahead.
Also, the data conversions for the different file formats can be done much more efficiently in C.

Best would be first an implementation with only standard clib file I/O calls even if that is probably still not optimal speed-wise. Platform specific enhancements can be done afterwards.

Whoever is interested, please reply to the list. If more than one of you likes to do it, you may also split parts of the work (for example when it comes to platform specific enhancements).

This task is completely independent of anything else that needs to be done atm and is a good preparation for the later task of moving other signal related code to C.

Best regards

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[SoundComp-Develop] Most elements specified

[<js...@ya...>]

Dear SoundComp team members,

Please all review 

https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/soundcomp/index.php?title=Language_definition_draft

This is my "preliminary final" of the syntax specification.
If you have a problem understanding this, please tell where it needs explanation.

If anyone is willing to try to write an example using EXACTLY this grammar, we might more easily be attracted to potential problems in this grammar before we implement it. Anyone willing to try? I will try this on my own during the next weeks.

If there are no further comments (but I hope to get some), I soon will start implementing a parser for that grammar (after I successfully wrote an example and didn't find inconsistencies).

Implementation start should be in at most 2 weeks,  if everything goes well.

Best regards

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[SoundComp-Develop] Back again...

[<js...@ya...>]

...I have returned home and so I am available again.
I hope you all are still well.

I will continue on the language specification stuff (even did a small bit during my stay in the netherlands) so I hope to be able to start the implementation soon and get a preliminary working parser in February.

I still would like to get some comments on the specs if there is anything that I might have missed, or underestimated in importance. I try to think of everything but I don't think a single person can do that. Also everyone is free to add to the relevant chapters or ask if anything seems unclear, I even wish you do that because I think it is important that you know the most that is possible about that (much more important than e.g. to know about signal  processing etc.)
Having the language as flexile and intuitive as possible is what decides if SoundComp is usable. Signal processing problems, or implementation flaws can easily be fixed later, changes in the general language structure will be a real problem later on as soon as someone starts using it, so this is the point where we have to spend the most intensive thoughts at start.

Best regards

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[SoundComp-Develop] As already announced...

[<js...@ya...>]

...starting today I will have to spend some time in the netherlands and may not have much opportunity to work on SoundComp or to react to any questions that might arise.

I will return on friday night German time and will probably be available saturday or sunday.

Still, any contributions meanwhile, being it e.g. successful build processes on more OS, or discussion in the wiki, are welcome.

Best regards

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[SoundComp-Develop] windows version fixed

[<js...@ya...>]

Miroslav Haida pointed out the uploaded windows version was broken (it was indeed), so I uploaded a new one that should be better, at least I hope.

Again, thank you Miroslav...

For some of you just asked what you can help in coding: does any one of you have any experience in lowlevel audio I/O programming for the realtime mode?
I have done such stuff earlier on windows (3.1 and 95) looooong ago, but never on linux, mac, newer windows with low latency APIs.
I assume all these platforms need their own code there, if you have any options to help out here, that would be great.

Also, what would equally be useful for the middle future would be an option to stream out data or receive audio streams and process them (this also could be valuable in realtime operations). For this issue, we might even be able to avoid any platform dependency obstacles. I'm thinking of streaming ogg vorbis, FLAC or monkey's audio as all these are open, patent free formats, I think. I just hope that they do not consume too much computational power when encoding. If they do, streaming uncompressed audio could also be possible (to a small LAN with few clients, not to the whole world, for speed reasons...) if there exist a standard and clients for this. I must admit I have no experience at all in writing such stuff on any platform.

These aren't necessarily the next steps as I am still struggling with the language definition (you'll find out when you look at "latest changes" in the wiki) - any help there is still most welcome as I think that is the next natural thing to be done before much further coding should take place.

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[SoundComp-Develop] To all: Call for votes on decision important for SoundComp

[<js...@ya...>]

https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/soundcomp/index.php?title=Talk:Language_definition_draft_and_requirement_analysis

Please read the vote question, consider what you think is the best choice for SoundComp, and answer with your vote and please also a comment about your motivations.

If I left out an important alternative and you would like to go for that, please also fill that in.

Best regards

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[SoundComp-Develop] linux version

[<js...@ya...>]

Dear team members,

from revision 108 on, it should be possible to work with SoundComp on linux, as I have done this on my laptop.
There is a corresponding Getting Started page in the wiki.


To Rich:

I assume the mac version will be really similar and the necessary changes to the code should now be integrated. You should be able to take what you find for linux, and create the corresponding mac version from it.
Especially, this should be important for the configure_mac.sh script that is not yet there. I would like to get some feedback on this, to have the mac issues cleared soon.



I may feel like adding solaris or FreeBSD/NetBSD etc. versions in the future. All these should be almost identical to the linux version, they mainly need different yacc builds. The sources for the correct yacc revision are in the tools folder, so for operating systems where this yacc is not yet available anyone should be able to create 'his' yacc (and then check it in).

Best regards

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[SoundComp-Develop] Changes in checkout/build process

[<js...@ya...>]

For the purpose of making multiplatform development easier, the .cproject and .project (and potentially other) files are no longer available directly at their location in the repository.
Instead, they are mirrored in a subdirectory, and a platform-specific batch file/shell script copies what goes where in the relevant platform.


This avoids having changed files in your repository copy just because some tool is installed in a different place on your machine. In this case, you will now edit your copy of .project/.cproject etc, but this will not affect the original location.

That might mean for you all now, if you now check out/update the source, your eclipse project file may be missing suddenly. In this case, just execute the configure_windows.bat or configure_linux.sh file you just checked out.
For mac, there should soon be a similar file.

I already adapted the "Getting started" in the wiki to reflect this change.

Until I have a working multiplatform development setup on my laptop (which is XP/ubuntu multiboot now), it may happen a few more times that some build process relevant files get moved and copy instructions added to the scripts, so be prepared to copy a few files around if you build new versions in the near future. I will attempt to keep this at a minimum, though.

Have a nice time

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

Re: [SoundComp-Develop] Language definition wiki page

[Uri Even-C. <ur...@sp...>]

Hi Jan,

I downloaded and installed Java 6 JRE and Eclipse.  I managed to do
most of the things, but I'm stuck in "Testing And Debugging".  I have
white diagonal cross on red background icons - in the directories
"SoundComp" / "javasrc" / "de.maramuse.soundcomp.parser" /
"Preprocessor.java" / "Preprocessor" / "Macro" / "pv" and
"parseDefinition(): void".  All the rest I think is OK.

Uri Even-Chen
Mobile Phone: +972-50-9007559
E-mail: ur...@sp...
Blog: http://www.speedy.net/uri/blog/




On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:12 PM, js...@ya... <js...@ya...> wrote:
> Please refer to that in the wiki in "getting started". All necessary links and an installation tutorial are there.
> If that doesn't get you where you need to go, we would have to refine it.
> That description is meant to enable everyone to build SoundComp without further explanation.
>
> Jan
>
>
> ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----
> Von: Uri Even-Chen <ur...@sp...>
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> I still don't have subversion/tortoise.  Where do I download them, and
> how do I use them with SoundComp?  I also don't have a compiler.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails.
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and easy
> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> SoundComp-Develop mailing list
> Sou...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/soundcomp-develop
>

Re: [SoundComp-Develop] Language definition wiki page

[<js...@ya...>]

Dear soundcomp members,

During the previous days, I largely extended the language definition page, to give an example of the discussion  I would like to take place.
It is clearly divided into a more formal lower part and an upper discussion part.

First, we have to "fill up" the upper discussion part, to see what finally needs to be formalized. Then much later we can continue and formalize it in the lower part (with constant review that what we did is consistent with the previous discussion, or redefining fragments in the upper part when formalizing it points out inconsistencies in our definition). Do not care about the formal lower part right now (unless you really want to).

What I am doing up there, I consider far from complete or perfect (I am just one single human with one single, limited view and opinion). Everything there is still a proposal or draft, do not view anything as completely fixed. Don't be afraid to edit there - even plainly wrong edits can always get reverted if necessary.

Please attempt to join there - discuss from a requirements point of view, technical feasibility at this point is not the main issue but will come later - I only may intervene if I see a proposal is probably not possible to implement. Usually this will not require cancelling anything, just slightly tuning the definition. The more different approaches are taken into account, the better the result should get. And it really needs no technical skills at this point - just thinking about "what options may be necessary or useful to generate a desired aural or musical result". Remember, the goals are maximizing flexibility, minimizing necessary effort, and being not too difficult to comprehend.

I really hope that some of you have some input. If there is something unclear at this point, it is essential to resolve this as we just define the very basics of using soundcomp, so do not give up but ask if I did not manage to make stuff clear to understand.

Too much is still missing - and despite all effort towards simplicity I may show a tendency to make things more complicated than they need to be, in which case you all are encouraged to correct me with better proposals. And also I may miss important use cases - that you should point out as well anytime you see them.


Best regards,

Jan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

Re: [SoundComp-Develop] Language definition wiki page

[<js...@ya...>]

Rich wrote:
---------------
>It looks to me like your "Drafts for language structure" is an initial 
>stab at a formal grammar for the language. Is this correct?

Yes, you are on the right track.


>Much of the syntax seems to follow a standard Yacc grammar definition. 

This is of couse on purpose. SoundComp will use a tool of the yacc family for implementing the parser. By using a representation that is strongly similar to the formal language used there, it should be fairly easy  to find the structures that we work out here, again in the source code. 

>But not all. If this is a formal grammar, why not follow strictly the 
Yacc grammar syntax and definitions. For example, I'm not sure but it 
sounds like you are using the term "literal" in the same way that Yacc 
grammar uses the term "terminal". Is this correct? Sometimes I see a 
":" which is the separator between the left and right-hand side of the 
production rules.
There are a few reasons why I do not want the complete yacc source code written in the wiki.
First, the yacc definitions also contain the actions of the parser. These do not belong on this wiki page and should be omitted there.
Second, it is not sure whether everything that I call a 'literal' will also be a 'terminal' in the parser because some may already lie on the other side of the border between parser and scanner. I do not want to enforce that everyone agrees on that separation at this point in the discussion since it is not yet relevant.
Besides that, I am unsure whether everyone (including those that never heard of yacc grammars) has an idea what a 'terminal' would be, but next to everyone should be able to grasp what a 'literal' could be.
Third, the wiki formatting options also provide a different (and easier to view) way of representing the grammar than the "unformatted-text-only" way of yacc. This is the reason why I created subparagraphs instead of separating grammar states from their rules with colon.

If most of you think it is better to strictly following yacc syntax and terminology, we may do so. You just caught me at an attempt to make it easier for the other members. I hope but am not sure that I am successful in that :-)

Jan


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

Re: [SoundComp-Develop] Language definition wiki page

[Richard S. <ric...@ma...>]

Jan,

Some clarification please.

It looks to me like your "Drafts for language structure" is an initial  
stab at a formal grammar for the language. Is this correct?

Much of the syntax seems to follow a standard Yacc grammar definition.  
But not all. If this is a formal grammar, why not follow strictly the  
Yacc grammar syntax and definitions. For example, I'm not sure but it  
sounds like you are using the term "literal" in the same way that Yacc  
grammar uses the term "terminal". Is this correct? Sometimes I see a  
":" which is the separator between the left and right-hand side of the  
production rules.

Forgive me if I've completely misunderstood what you are trying to do  
here.

Thanks.

Rich

On Jan 4, 2010, at 7:08 PM, js...@ya... wrote:

> Dear team members,
>
> as you know, the next planned issue for SoundComp is language  
> definition in large parts.
>
> This night, I started a wiki page for a more formal SoundComp  
> language discussion (not as previously by example, but by  
> requirements explanation and formal rules).
>
> Any input there is really appreciated, or better, even needed badly.
>
> The developer swapk has emailed me and told that due to unforeseen  
> family related problems, he was not and will not be able to spend  
> time for SoundComp for an unspecified duration.
> This explains why I was not really able to establish communication  
> with him in the past.
> He kindly requested me to take him from the project member list.
> So I will probably again look for one coding helper, unless one of  
> the existing members feels like wanting to extend his  
> responsibilities. I will give you all a few days time until I will  
> take action.
>
>> From January 6 (in german time :-)) ), I will only be able to spend  
>> less time on the project as my free days are over then and I will  
>> again work full time. This means there may be days when I will not  
>> be able to do anything on the project at all. Don't worry, I will  
>> still be available, just not as active as before.
>
> Later this month, I will have to spend a working week in the  
> netherlands, and the hotel there has free but extremely slow WLAN  
> connection (speed comparable to some 4800-21600 baud modem). During  
> that time, I will surely find time to do stuff in the evening, but  
> you may not see any progress as I may delay uploading results.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jan
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden  
> Schutz gegen Massenmails.
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast  
> and easy
> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> SoundComp-Develop mailing list
> Sou...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/soundcomp-develop