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From: David M. <db...@cs...> - 2005-04-12 18:03:43
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Tentatively, I had in mind doing a general review of the state of documentation and seeing what is most in need of updating. The main web page needs a major update and cleanup as well. Do you have ideas about what the priorities should be? Dave On Apr 12, 2005, at 11:41 AM, Lal George wrote: > Dave, > > Since the plan will be spelled out later, I am curious what > you have in mind wrt documentation? > > Lal > > > David MacQueen wrote: >> I agree. There are not very many high priority fixes or improvements >> needed to make a release, but there should be some cleanup and >> updates to documentation. As you say, the main thing is to bless >> something >> close to the current working version as the official release, >> superseding >> the aged 110.0.7. >> Dave > > |
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From: weather <we...@in...> - 2005-03-24 23:29:28
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From: Nick B. <Nic...@po...> - 2005-03-15 12:15:15
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At 2005-03-14 18:18:07+0000, John Reppy writes:
> 2) a protable and standard way to interface to C code. I think that
> this needs to be a language extension that all implementations
> agree to support (something like the Haskell FFI specification).
In Python:
>>> import ctypes
>>> msvcrt = ctypes.cdll.msvcrt
>>> msvcrt.printf('Hello, %s! The answer is %d.\n', 'World', 42)
Hello, World! The answer is 42.
32
>>>
I'm not really expecting SML to do as well as this, but it's something
to aim for.
Nick B
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From: Matthew F. <fl...@cs...> - 2005-03-14 20:50:22
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> I agree about the importance of libraries. I think that there are two > issues that as a community we need to solve before we can hope to > have the same level of library support that Python and its ilk have. > > 1) a portable way to specify build scripts. When I write a library for > SML/NJ, I use CM, but there is no easy way to port my library to > MLton, or Moscow ML, or the MLKit, or ... Matthias Blume proposed > a solution to this problem on this mailing list a year or two ago, but > there was little or no response from other implementations. One can transform a SML/NJ CM project into a MLton MLB project using the cm2mlb tool, described at the bottom of: http://mlton.org/CompilationManager This tool uses the SML/NJ $/pgraph.cm library internally. But, John is right, the tool should really be pgd2mlb and the corresponding mlb2pgd tool should be written as well. |
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From: John R. <jh...@cs...> - 2005-03-14 18:18:26
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I agree about the importance of libraries. I think that there are two
issues that as a community we need to solve before we can hope to
have the same level of library support that Python and its ilk have.
1) a portable way to specify build scripts. When I write a library for
SML/NJ, I use CM, but there is no easy way to port my library to
MLton, or Moscow ML, or the MLKit, or ... Matthias Blume proposed
a solution to this problem on this mailing list a year or two ago,
but
there was little or no response from other implementations.
2) a protable and standard way to interface to C code. I think that
this needs to be a language extension that all implementations
agree to support (something like the Haskell FFI specification).
- John
|
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From: Nick B. <Nic...@po...> - 2005-03-14 17:38:24
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At 2005-03-14 14:18:29+0000, "Nick Benton" writes: > (c) come up with something even better Which, ISTR, is why this list was set up. Apparently we can't use the name "Standard ML" for whatever we come up with.... I find my interest in cool new language features has waned considerably over time, possibly due to the absence of compelling examples. I don't use half the cool features of the languages which I do use at work (mostly Python, Common Lisp, C, and some Perl and C++ for my sins). I don't even *know* many of the cool features. They're just excess baggage which the language implementation has to carry around but which most programmers don't, and IMO shouldn't, bother to make brain-space for. Standard ML, to my humble mind, was just the right size for a language, and had an almost total absence of cool features. I used just about everything it had, and wanted almost nothing that it didn't have (apart from, as I've said, easy access to massive libraries). Nick B |
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From: Nick B. <ni...@mi...> - 2005-03-14 14:18:38
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Strange, twisted versions of the ideas are indeed making it to widespread adoption. Look at the latest version of C# - not just types and garbage collection, but parametric polymorphism, anonymous functions, etc. Even limited forms of type inference. Andrew Kennedy has done various bits of classical functional programming in C#2.0 (parser combinators, functional graphics) and whilst it's not pretty, it's certainly possible. With Claudio Russo, he's now even showing how to do GADTs, one of the latest things in the pure FP community, in C#. Continuations (and the benefits of statelessness) are a hot topic in web programming... So we either=20 (a) declare victory (b) keep trying to make the argument. This is harder than before since instead of saying "we have types/gc/higher order functions and you don't" we have to explain how we have the "right" versions of those features, and how leaving some other features out makes those features more usable. (c) come up with something even better I thing (b) becomes increasingly untenable with respect to "straight" SML. There are some exciting developments (MLton, for example (insert gripes about Windows support)) but the language has to evolve.=20 Poly/ML: www.polyml.org, though I can't get a response at this very moment. Anyway, I should go and do some (c). Anyone with substantive opinions on such matters should write them up and submit them to the 2005 ML Workshop: http://ttic.uchicago.edu/~blume/ml05/. Nick [No - I'm Spartacus. I was two years earlier than you on the Maths Tripos and the Diploma.] -----Original Message----- From: nb...@ra... [mailto:nb...@ra...] On Behalf Of Nick Barnes Sent: 14 March 2005 13:35 To: Nick Benton Cc: sml...@li... Subject: Re: [Sml-implementers] SML IDE as language promotion=20 At 2005-03-14 11:23:37+0000, "Nick Benton" writes: > The people who like SML just don't seem all that keen on writing > applications other than theorem provers and SML compilers. I'd be tempted, and would certainly try it, if it had anything like the library support that Python has (almost all of it portably between *nix and Windows, which is important for a lot of the work that we do). But I recognize that I'm in a minority. Way back when, the MLWorkers looked around for real-world ML use. I remember using some 'real applications' (academic biochemistry computations, as I recall) as test cases for the MLWorks profiler. So has SML permanently missed this boat? Is there a future for SML in which it gets used for real programming? Or at least for the ideas which SML incorporates and represents? SML.NET is an excellent step in that direction (albeit single platform etc etc, insert gripes about Microsoft here, I guess SML.NET/Mono will work one day). I should get around to installing the copy of Visual Studio .NET that Mike Smith mailed to me.... What ever happened to Poly/ML? [the other? the original?] Nick B |
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From: Nick B. <Nic...@po...> - 2005-03-14 13:35:19
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At 2005-03-14 11:23:37+0000, "Nick Benton" writes: > The people who like SML just don't seem all that keen on writing > applications other than theorem provers and SML compilers. I'd be tempted, and would certainly try it, if it had anything like the library support that Python has (almost all of it portably between *nix and Windows, which is important for a lot of the work that we do). But I recognize that I'm in a minority. Way back when, the MLWorkers looked around for real-world ML use. I remember using some 'real applications' (academic biochemistry computations, as I recall) as test cases for the MLWorks profiler. So has SML permanently missed this boat? Is there a future for SML in which it gets used for real programming? Or at least for the ideas which SML incorporates and represents? SML.NET is an excellent step in that direction (albeit single platform etc etc, insert gripes about Microsoft here, I guess SML.NET/Mono will work one day). I should get around to installing the copy of Visual Studio .NET that Mike Smith mailed to me.... What ever happened to Poly/ML? [the other? the original?] Nick B |
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From: Nick B. <ni...@mi...> - 2005-03-14 11:23:48
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We have a handful of users we know about (though in my dreams there are thousands of people using it successfully who never get in touch because it just works). You're absolutely right: availability of an IDE really doesn't seem to be sufficient to drive language adoption. Interoperability and easy access to rich libraries are, as you say, much more important. But we've got those too - that's the point of SML.NET - and I still can't really pretend there's a mass stampede towards SML. The people who like SML just don't seem all that keen on writing applications other than theorem provers and SML compilers. There's no language advocacy and it's perhaps seen as old-ish and academic rather than new and cool. (Or whatever the cool word for cool is.) OCaml has a better image and a much wider and more active community. Part of that is, I think, still down to tools: the SML community still hasn't quite hit the sweet spot here, despite having a bunch of high-quality implementations, each of which excels in some aspect. But there are other social/community/marketing factors at work. I think the contrast between the title and contents of Larry's (absolutely lovely, don't get me wrong....) textbook is a dead giveaway here :-) Nick -----Original Message----- From: nb...@ra... [mailto:nb...@ra...] On Behalf Of Nick Barnes Sent: 14 March 2005 10:31 To: Nick Benton Cc: Alexandre; sml...@li... Subject: Re: [Sml-implementers] SML IDE as language promotion=20 At 2005-03-12 12:34:17+0000, "Nick Benton" writes: > SML.NET is integrated into Visual Studio (and so too are F# and even > Haskell now). >=20 > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/TSG/SMLNET/ >=20 > You can write mixed-language projects (e.g. SML/C#/VB, which is > particularly handy if you want to use the visual designers to generate > C# for a GUI with SML logic behind). You get syntax highlighting, > bracket matching, continuous syntax and type-checking, you can hover > over expressions and patterns to see their type, Intellisense completion > on both .NET and SML libraries, source code debugging (set breakpoints, > step through mixed-language code, examine bindings, etc.).=20 This is pretty cool. Do you know whether anyone is using it? > It's also worth remembering that, way back in the last century, > Harlequin's now-defunct MLWorks system had an ML-specific development > environment with some pretty nice features. You're too kind. Nick Barnes ex-MLWorker Director Ravenbrook Limited |
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From: Nick B. <Nic...@po...> - 2005-03-14 10:30:49
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At 2005-03-12 12:34:17+0000, "Nick Benton" writes: > SML.NET is integrated into Visual Studio (and so too are F# and even > Haskell now). > > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/TSG/SMLNET/ > > You can write mixed-language projects (e.g. SML/C#/VB, which is > particularly handy if you want to use the visual designers to generate > C# for a GUI with SML logic behind). You get syntax highlighting, > bracket matching, continuous syntax and type-checking, you can hover > over expressions and patterns to see their type, Intellisense completion > on both .NET and SML libraries, source code debugging (set breakpoints, > step through mixed-language code, examine bindings, etc.). This is pretty cool. Do you know whether anyone is using it? > It's also worth remembering that, way back in the last century, > Harlequin's now-defunct MLWorks system had an ML-specific development > environment with some pretty nice features. You're too kind. Nick Barnes ex-MLWorker Director Ravenbrook Limited |
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From: Nick B. <Nic...@po...> - 2005-03-14 10:21:53
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At 2005-03-11 20:52:29+0000, Alexandre writes: > I just re-read article "Why no one use functional languages" (you can > find it here: > http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/sigplan-why/sigplan- > why.ps). > > At that article you might notice absolutely fair notice about tools (no > one will encouraged to use new language without good tools). I hope you > will agree, that IDE is really useful and important tool, but I can't > find such a tool for an SML. There is Eclipse development for Haskell, > OCaml (which actually has already they own native IDE), but not for > SML, while there are so many implementations and developers of SML > Language. > > Don't you think that such a good tools will "promote" language and > probably gives more "forces" (people) for the language? > > What about some type of collaboration to bring new developer tools to > the users? Disclaimer: I was an MLWorks staff member for several years at Harlequin; you can blame me for the runtime, the GC, the profiler, application delivery, and some other stuff. No, I don't think that tools make much difference at all. There are graphical IDEs available for (say) Perl and Python. I do most of my programming in those two languages these days, but I don't use the IDEs and I don't know anyone who does. So I don't think the availability of 'tools' has had anything to do with the popularity of those languages. They have become popular because they make it easy to get the job done. Taking Python as an example, it is easy to get the job done in Python because (a) it includes a huge library of really useful modules, (b) it's trivial to interface it with third-party libraries written in whatever language, (c) it has a good read/eval/print TTY interface, and the library includes a good TTY debugger. There are other reasons, but these three are the basics. The language itself is OK (but not great; it's no SML). Having said all that: If the SML community wants a graphical IDE for SML, MLWorks is still owned by Xanalys, I believe. Various companies have acquired residual assets of Harlequin from the Global Graphics/Xanalys companies (DylanWorks went to Functional Objects, we at Ravenbrook bought the MPS, LispWorks has just been bought up by the Xanalys Lispers to form LispWorks Limited). Our experience suggests to me that MLWorks could be 'liberated' to open source for the legal costs (maybe a few thousand USD). Maybe one day Ravenbrook will do this if nobody else does it in the meantime. I'd like to tinker with the profiler some more. Nick Barnes Director Ravenbrook Limited |
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From: Alexandre <Xle...@ra...> - 2005-03-12 12:49:07
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Nick, that's nice, but currently, I'm on Mac OS X. Another working platforms=20= - it's FreeBSD and Linux. Nor .NET nor Visual Studio exist on that=20 platforms. Even if they are - there is an another reason: I want=20 compiled, fast and independent (from some big framework) programs -=20 .NET didn't give me such an opportunity. As MLWorks, you notice absolutely right - "It's also worth=20 remembering". Memory - it's a good thing, but now there is no such=20 product. Please, correct me, if I'm wrong. Regards, /Alexandre. On Mar 12, 2005, at 15:34, Nick Benton wrote: > SML.NET is integrated into Visual Studio (and so too are F# and even > Haskell now). > > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/TSG/SMLNET/ > > You can write mixed-language projects (e.g. SML/C#/VB, which is > particularly handy if you want to use the visual designers to generate > C# for a GUI with SML logic behind). You get syntax highlighting, > bracket matching, continuous syntax and type-checking, you can hover > over expressions and patterns to see their type, Intellisense=20 > completion > on both .NET and SML libraries, source code debugging (set = breakpoints, > step through mixed-language code, examine bindings, etc.). > > It's also worth remembering that, way back in the last century, > Harlequin's now-defunct MLWorks system had an ML-specific development > environment with some pretty nice features. > > Nick > > -----Original Message----- > From: sml...@li... > [mailto:sml...@li...] On Behalf Of > Alexandre > Sent: 11 March 2005 20:52 > To: sml...@li...; > sml...@li... > Subject: [Sml-implementers] SML IDE as language promotion > > Dear subscribers, > > I just re-read article "Why no one use functional languages" (you can > find it here: > http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/sigplan-why/sigplan- > why.ps). > > At that article you might notice absolutely fair notice about tools = (no > > one will encouraged to use new language without good tools). I hope = you > > will agree, that IDE is really useful and important tool, but I can't > find such a tool for an SML. There is Eclipse development for Haskell, > OCaml (which actually has already they own native IDE), but not for > SML, while there are so many implementations and developers of SML > Language. > > Don't you think that such a good tools will "promote" language and > probably gives more "forces" (people) for the language? > > What about some type of collaboration to bring new developer tools to > the users? > > > Regards, > /Alexandre. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real=20 > users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D6595&alloc_id=3D14396&op=3Dclick > _______________________________________________ > Sml-implementers mailing list > Sml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sml-implementers > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real=20 > users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_ide95&alloc_id=14396&op=3Dclick > _______________________________________________ > Sml-implementers mailing list > Sml...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sml-implementers > |
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From: Nick B. <ni...@mi...> - 2005-03-12 12:35:01
|
SML.NET is integrated into Visual Studio (and so too are F# and even Haskell now). http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/TSG/SMLNET/ You can write mixed-language projects (e.g. SML/C#/VB, which is particularly handy if you want to use the visual designers to generate C# for a GUI with SML logic behind). You get syntax highlighting, bracket matching, continuous syntax and type-checking, you can hover over expressions and patterns to see their type, Intellisense completion on both .NET and SML libraries, source code debugging (set breakpoints, step through mixed-language code, examine bindings, etc.).=20 It's also worth remembering that, way back in the last century, Harlequin's now-defunct MLWorks system had an ML-specific development environment with some pretty nice features. Nick -----Original Message----- From: sml...@li... [mailto:sml...@li...] On Behalf Of Alexandre Sent: 11 March 2005 20:52 To: sml...@li...; sml...@li... Subject: [Sml-implementers] SML IDE as language promotion Dear subscribers, I just re-read article "Why no one use functional languages" (you can =20 find it here: =20 http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/sigplan-why/sigplan-=20 why.ps). At that article you might notice absolutely fair notice about tools (no one will encouraged to use new language without good tools). I hope you will agree, that IDE is really useful and important tool, but I can't =20 find such a tool for an SML. There is Eclipse development for Haskell, =20 OCaml (which actually has already they own native IDE), but not for =20 SML, while there are so many implementations and developers of SML =20 Language. Don't you think that such a good tools will "promote" language and =20 probably gives more "forces" (people) for the language? What about some type of collaboration to bring new developer tools to =20 the users? Regards, /Alexandre. ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D6595&alloc_id=3D14396&op=3Dclick _______________________________________________ Sml-implementers mailing list Sml...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sml-implementers |
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From: Alexandre <Xle...@ra...> - 2005-03-11 20:52:35
|
Dear subscribers, I just re-read article "Why no one use functional languages" (you can find it here: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/sigplan-why/sigplan- why.ps). At that article you might notice absolutely fair notice about tools (no one will encouraged to use new language without good tools). I hope you will agree, that IDE is really useful and important tool, but I can't find such a tool for an SML. There is Eclipse development for Haskell, OCaml (which actually has already they own native IDE), but not for SML, while there are so many implementations and developers of SML Language. Don't you think that such a good tools will "promote" language and probably gives more "forces" (people) for the language? What about some type of collaboration to bring new developer tools to the users? Regards, /Alexandre. |
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From: jan t. <jan...@ya...> - 2005-03-04 11:21:25
|
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