From: Kelly J. <kel...@gm...> - 2007-04-26 02:51:46
|
I'm writing a Semantic Mediawiki page about Bob, and want to say: Bob's brother, Bill, lives in Idaho, which borders Wyoming, and is famous for its potatoes. The semantic triples I'm modeling: Bob has_brother Bill Bill lives_in Idaho Idaho famous_for potatoes Idaho borders Wyoming Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to create separate pages for Bill and Idaho? If I have to create pages for Bill and Idaho, is there any way I can get Semantic Mediawiki to create those pages for me? (or edit the pages if they already exist to include these new relations?) -- We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile. |
From: Lionel B. <lio...@gm...> - 2007-04-26 03:12:11
|
Afaik this has to be done manually at the moment. I have inquired about a similar feature, namely reciprocal relations, for example parent/child. I don't think SMW can "induce" relationships or register relationships without the tag being done manually. - Lionel Brits Kelly Jones wrote: > I'm writing a Semantic Mediawiki page about Bob, and want to say: > > Bob's brother, Bill, lives in Idaho, which borders Wyoming, and is > famous for its potatoes. > > The semantic triples I'm modeling: > > Bob has_brother Bill > Bill lives_in Idaho > Idaho famous_for potatoes > Idaho borders Wyoming > > Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to > create separate pages for Bill and Idaho? > > If I have to create pages for Bill and Idaho, is there any way I can > get Semantic Mediawiki to create those pages for me? (or edit the > pages if they already exist to include these new relations?) > > |
From: Tony B. <ton...@ka...> - 2007-04-26 08:07:26
|
Kelly Jones wrote: > Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to > create separate pages for Bill and Idaho? Modelling them all on the one page would probably be a bad idea. If I look at the factbox for Idaho, and see something that is incorrect, I should be able to just click 'edit' find the bad information, and fix it. If actually that information could live anywhere else on the wiki this process would become a whole lot harder. > If I have to create pages for Bill and Idaho, is there any way I can > get Semantic Mediawiki to create those pages for me? (or edit the > pages if they already exist to include these new relations?) IMO, SMW is about more about annotating human readable text in a way that generates usable data than providing a tool for human entry of triples. There is no way that the system would know how to turn your statements into a plausible sentence nor where to insert it in a pre-existing Idaho page. Tony |
From: <ba...@ba...> - 2007-04-26 11:05:24
|
Hi Kelly, i am not a smw developer, but i hope i can help too. > I'm writing a Semantic Mediawiki page about Bob, and want to say: > > Bob's brother, Bill, lives in Idaho, which borders Wyoming, and is > famous for its potatoes. > > The semantic triples I'm modeling: > > Bob has_brother Bill > Bill lives_in Idaho > Idaho famous_for potatoes > Idaho borders Wyoming > > Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to > create separate pages for Bill and Idaho? You can write them all in one page but i think it is cleaner and logically nicer to add them in different pages. > > If I have to create pages for Bill and Idaho, is there any way I can > get Semantic Mediawiki to create those pages for me? (or edit the > pages if they already exist to include these new relations?) If you have the Page Bob and you add [[has_brother::Bill]] a link for Bob will occur in the wikitext after saving the page. You can now click this page and edit directly the properties and relations for Bill. the same will happen for Idaho and potatoes and Wyoming. hope this helps josh > > -- > We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying > to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to > new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile. > > _______________________________________________ > swikig mailing list > sw...@ai... > http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig -- -------------------------------- joshua bacher Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology Deutscher Platz 6 04103 LEIPZIG Germany web: http://bacher.bash-it.de -------------------------------- |
From: Uschold, M. F <mic...@bo...> - 2007-04-26 17:04:15
|
Kelly said: > Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to=20 > create separate pages for Bill and Idaho? Josh Said: You can write them all in one page but i think it is cleaner and logically nicer to add them in different pages. -- This must be new, when I looked into the semantic media wiki months ago, the only things you could say on a web page are attributions of the object of the web page. So you could not say Bill is in Idaho, if you were on Bob's page.=20 This was a major design decision in the first release. One that I found that to be a major limitation, so I stopped trying to use the tool. Has this now changed? If so, I think it is a great idea. High priority should be placed on making it easy to create any triples you want anytime anywhere. After all, the tuples sit in a common triple store, there is no reason for them to be strongly associated with any particular wiki page. Where you are and what you are doing when you create a triple should not be terribly relevant.=20 Or those are my current thoughts. Perhaps there are tradeoffs that I'm not aware of. Michael=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Uschold M&CT, Phantom Works=20 425 373-2845 mic...@bo... =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ---------------------------------------------------- COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20 -----Original Message----- From: ba...@ba... [mailto:ba...@ba...]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 3:56 AM To: Kelly Jones Cc: sem...@li...; sw...@ai... Subject: Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage? Hi Kelly, i am not a smw developer, but i hope i can help too. > I'm writing a Semantic Mediawiki page about Bob, and want to say: >=20 > Bob's brother, Bill, lives in Idaho, which borders Wyoming, and is=20 > famous for its potatoes. >=20 > The semantic triples I'm modeling: >=20 > Bob has_brother Bill > Bill lives_in Idaho > Idaho famous_for potatoes > Idaho borders Wyoming >=20 > Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to=20 > create separate pages for Bill and Idaho? You can write them all in one page but i think it is cleaner and logically nicer to add them in different pages. >=20 > If I have to create pages for Bill and Idaho, is there any way I can=20 > get Semantic Mediawiki to create those pages for me? (or edit the=20 > pages if they already exist to include these new relations?) If you have the Page Bob and you add [[has_brother::Bill]] a link for Bob will occur in the wikitext after saving the page. You can now click this page and edit directly the properties and relations for Bill. the same will happen for Idaho and potatoes and Wyoming. hope this helps josh >=20 > -- > We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying=20 > to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to=20 > new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > swikig mailing list > sw...@ai... > http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig -- -------------------------------- joshua bacher Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology Deutscher Platz 6 04103 LEIPZIG Germany web: http://bacher.bash-it.de -------------------------------- _______________________________________________ swikig mailing list sw...@ai... http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig |
From: Reini U. <ru...@x-...> - 2007-04-26 17:14:33
|
2007/4/26, Uschold, Michael F <mic...@bo...>: > Kelly said: > > Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to > > create separate pages for Bill and Idaho? > > Josh Said: > You can write them all in one page but i think it is cleaner and > logically nicer to add them in different pages. > -- > > This must be new, when I looked into the semantic media wiki months ago, > the only things you could say on a web page are attributions of the > object of the web page. So you could not say Bill is in Idaho, if you > were on Bob's page. > > This was a major design decision in the first release. One that I found > that to be a major limitation, so I stopped trying to use the tool. > > Has this now changed? If so, I think it is a great idea. High priority > should be placed on making it easy to create any triples you want > anytime anywhere. After all, the tuples sit in a common triple store, > there is no reason for them to be strongly associated with any > particular wiki page. But the first part of the triple, the subject, should be always the page title for consistency. You want to reason about pages as subjects, not about any subjects. Otherwise you'll easily get contradictions and not overviewable hierarchies, which you cannot reason about them anymore because of increased complexity. Esp with php alone. > Where you are and what you are doing when you create a triple should not > be terribly relevant. It is consistency-wise. > Or those are my current thoughts. Perhaps there are tradeoffs that I'm > not aware of. -- Reini Urban http://phpwiki.org/ http://murbreak.at/ http://spacemovie.mur.at/ http://helsinki.at/ |
From: Daniel S. <dsc...@in...> - 2007-04-26 17:19:19
|
On 26/4/2007 14:02, Uschold, Michael F wrote: > ... > > This must be new, when I looked into the semantic media wiki months ago, > the only things you could say on a web page are attributions of the > object of the web page. So you could not say Bill is in Idaho, if you > were on Bob's page. > > This was a major design decision in the first release. One that I found > that to be a major limitation, so I stopped trying to use the tool. > > Has this now changed? If so, I think it is a great idea. High priority > should be placed on making it easy to create any triples you want > anytime anywhere. After all, the tuples sit in a common triple store, > there is no reason for them to be strongly associated with any > particular wiki page. > > Where you are and what you are doing when you create a triple should not > be terribly relevant. > To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what you have in mind when you think of a "wiki page"? Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an attribution (a triple) to this page - should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject, which is a resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you assign to these triples? Is it supposed to encapsulate some kind of concept or set of concepts - then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts? Must it be in some sense "self-contained" - relative to some discourse, or relative to some conceptualization schema? I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and scenarios) you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need? Cheers, Daniel --- Daniel Schwabe Dept. de Informatica, PUC-Rio Tel:+55-21-3527 1500 r. 4356 R. M. de S. Vicente, 225 Fax: +55-21-3527 1530 Rio de Janeiro, RJ 22453-900, Brasil http://www.inf.puc-rio.br/~dschwabe |
From: Max V. <vo...@fz...> - 2007-04-26 18:59:07
|
Hi, the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples. Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere. Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons: 1) (the important reason) Make it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotated = links is enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but o= ne is courious why, it's enough to go to page X and look there. There can = be no ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made. 2) (the tiny reason) It's easier to handle. Whenever a user edits a page X, semantic medi= awiki simply removes all triples (X,*,*), parses the page and adds tripl= es as needed. A paper about possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the d= esign space) is here [1] [1] http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis Kind Regards, Max -- Max V=F6lkel http://Xam.de FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik http://www.FZI.de an der Universit=E4t Karlsruhe telephone: +49-721-9654-0 Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14 fax: +49-721-9654-959 D-76131 Karlsruhe Stiftung des b=FCrgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspr=E4sidium Kar= lsruhe. Vorstand: Prof. Dr.-Ing. R=FCdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael Flor, Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer. Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent G=FCnther Le=DFnerkraus. |
From: Uschold, M. F <mic...@bo...> - 2007-04-26 19:09:26
|
Max tells us that this design decision is intended to make it easier for = the user. I have no doubt that many users will find this to be the case. Other users may agree that the intended benefit has some advantages, but = on balance would prefer a different design decision. I'm one of those. Which is why different tools will emerge with different design = decisions. As it should be. Mike =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Uschold M&CT, Phantom Works=20 425 373-2845 mic...@bo... =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ---------------------------------------------------- COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go = to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20 -----Original Message----- From: Max Voelkel [mailto:vo...@fz...]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM To: Daniel Schwabe Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; ba...@ba...; = sem...@li...; Blanchard, Duane L; = sw...@ai...; Uschold, Michael F Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" = relations on Semantic Mediawikipage? Hi, the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples. Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere. Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons: 1) (the important reason) Make it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, = annotated links is enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, = but one is courious why, it's enough to go to page X and look there. There = can be no ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made. 2) (the tiny reason) It's easier to handle. Whenever a user edits a page X, semantic = mediawiki simply removes all triples (X,*,*), parses the page and adds = triples as needed. A paper about possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages = (the design space) is here [1] [1] = http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis Kind Regards, Max -- Max V=F6lkel http://Xam.de FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik http://www.FZI.de an der Universit=E4t Karlsruhe telephone: +49-721-9654-0 Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14 fax: +49-721-9654-959 D-76131 Karlsruhe Stiftung des b=FCrgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspr=E4sidium = Karlsruhe. Vorstand: Prof. Dr.-Ing. R=FCdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael = Flor, Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer. Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent G=FCnther = Le=DFnerkraus. |
From: Uschold, M. F <mic...@bo...> - 2007-04-26 19:10:37
|
This seems to confirm that the information given in a prior message is = incorrect. That person said one COULD create a triple relating Idaho and = Montana in the Bob page. Just to be clear. Mike =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Uschold M&CT, Phantom Works=20 425 373-2845 mic...@bo... =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ---------------------------------------------------- COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go = to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20 -----Original Message----- From: Max Voelkel [mailto:vo...@fz...]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM To: Daniel Schwabe Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; ba...@ba...; = sem...@li...; Blanchard, Duane L; = sw...@ai...; Uschold, Michael F Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" = relations on Semantic Mediawikipage? Hi, the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples. Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere. Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons: 1) (the important reason) Make it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, = annotated links is enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, = but one is courious why, it's enough to go to page X and look there. There = can be no ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made. 2) (the tiny reason) It's easier to handle. Whenever a user edits a page X, semantic = mediawiki simply removes all triples (X,*,*), parses the page and adds = triples as needed. A paper about possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages = (the design space) is here [1] [1] = http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis Kind Regards, Max -- Max V=F6lkel http://Xam.de FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik http://www.FZI.de an der Universit=E4t Karlsruhe telephone: +49-721-9654-0 Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14 fax: +49-721-9654-959 D-76131 Karlsruhe Stiftung des b=FCrgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspr=E4sidium = Karlsruhe. Vorstand: Prof. Dr.-Ing. R=FCdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael = Flor, Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer. Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent G=FCnther = Le=DFnerkraus. |
From: Kelly J. <kel...@gm...> - 2007-04-27 13:25:36
|
It seems easy to modify Semantic Mediawiki to allow this? (said by a very poor programmer). My thoughts: % Tweak SMW's hooks to understand [[x::R::y]] to mean the triple x,R,y % Add columns to smw_relations/etc to indicate which page created a given row (it's no longer guarenteed to be the 'subject' page) % Tweak the save/delete hooks: when a page is saved, all rows that page created are deleted and re-created % To avoid cacheing issues, if page w has a relation [[x::R::y]], force-update page x when w is saved. Any takers? --=20 We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile. On 4/26/07, Uschold, Michael F <mic...@bo...> wrote: > This seems to confirm that the information given in a prior message is > incorrect. That person said one COULD create a triple relating Idaho and > Montana in the Bob page. > > Just to be clear. > > Mike > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > Michael Uschold > M&CT, Phantom Works > 425 373-2845 > mic...@bo... > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > > ---------------------------------------------------- > COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to= : > http://gethuman.com/tips.html > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Max Voelkel [mailto:vo...@fz...] > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM > To: Daniel Schwabe > Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; ba...@ba...; > sem...@li...; Blanchard, Duane L; > sw...@ai...; Uschold, Michael F > Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relati= ons > on Semantic Mediawikipage? > > Hi, > > the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples. > Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere. > > Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons: > > 1) (the important reason) > > Make it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotate= d > links > is enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but > one is > courious why, it's enough to go to page X and look there. There ca= n > be no > ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made. > > 2) (the tiny reason) > It's easier to handle. Whenever a user edits a page X, semantic > mediawiki > simply removes all triples (X,*,*), parses the page and adds > triples as > needed. > > A paper about possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the > design > space) is here [1] > > > [1] http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis > > > Kind Regards, > Max > > -- > Max V=F6lkel > http://Xam.de > > FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik http://www.FZI.de > an der Universit=E4t Karlsruhe telephone: +49-721-9654-0 > Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14 fax: +49-721-9654-959 > D-76131 Karlsruhe > > Stiftung des b=FCrgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspr=E4sidium > Karlsruhe. > Vorstand: Prof. Dr.-Ing. R=FCdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael Fl= or, > Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer. > Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent G=FCnther Le=DFnerkraus= . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > |
From: Yaron K. <ya...@gm...> - 2007-04-27 15:11:21
|
[Now I don't know which of the two competing threads to respond to... I'm picking this one.] Someone brought it up before, but it's worth repeating: the thing that makes free-form triples on semantic wikis (in my opinion) very undesirable is having to deal with conflicts. To borrow from the original example, if Bob's page lists a population size for Montana, and Bill's page lists a different population, and Montana's own page lists a third population altogether, how do you know which one to use? There are other arguments that can be made against free-form triples, but in a sense they all stem back from this problem of data conflicts. -Yaron On 4/27/07, Kelly Jones <kel...@gm...> wrote: > It seems easy to modify Semantic Mediawiki to allow this? (said by a > very poor programmer). My thoughts: > > % Tweak SMW's hooks to understand [[x::R::y]] to mean the triple x,R,y > > % Add columns to smw_relations/etc to indicate which page created a > given row (it's no longer guarenteed to be the 'subject' page) > > % Tweak the save/delete hooks: when a page is saved, all rows > that page created are deleted and re-created > > % To avoid cacheing issues, if page w has a relation [[x::R::y]], > force-update page x when w is saved. > > Any takers? > > -- > We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying > to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to > new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile. > > On 4/26/07, Uschold, Michael F <mic...@bo...> wrote: > > This seems to confirm that the information given in a prior message is > > incorrect. That person said one COULD create a triple relating Idaho an= d > > Montana in the Bob page. > > > > Just to be clear. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D > > Michael Uschold > > M&CT, Phantom Works > > 425 373-2845 > > mic...@bo... > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go = to: > > http://gethuman.com/tips.html > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Max Voelkel [mailto:vo...@fz...] > > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM > > To: Daniel Schwabe > > Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; ba...@ba...; > > sem...@li...; Blanchard, Duane L; > > sw...@ai...; Uschold, Michael F > > Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" rela= tions > > on Semantic Mediawikipage? > > > > Hi, > > > > the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples. > > Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere. > > > > Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons: > > > > 1) (the important reason) > > > > Make it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annota= ted > > links > > is enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, b= ut > > one is > > courious why, it's enough to go to page X and look there. There = can > > be no > > ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made. > > > > 2) (the tiny reason) > > It's easier to handle. Whenever a user edits a page X, semantic > > mediawiki > > simply removes all triples (X,*,*), parses the page and adds > > triples as > > needed. > > > > A paper about possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (t= he > > design > > space) is here [1] > > > > > > [1] http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wik= is > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > Max > > > > -- > > Max V=F6lkel > > http://Xam.de > > > > FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik http://www.FZI.de > > an der Universit=E4t Karlsruhe telephone: +49-721-9654-0 > > Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14 fax: +49-721-9654-959 > > D-76131 Karlsruhe > > > > Stiftung des b=FCrgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspr=E4sidium > > Karlsruhe. > > Vorstand: Prof. Dr.-Ing. R=FCdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael = Flor, > > Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer. > > Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent G=FCnther Le=DFnerkra= us. > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > Sem...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > |
From: Uschold, M. F <mic...@bo...> - 2007-04-29 22:26:29
|
In a prior post I indicated that you do not want three separate triples = on the three separate pages. You merely want them to be visible and = editable from there. They could be in a back end store, and viewable = from various places. This may have architectural impacts, and there may be good reasons from = an implementers perspective why to keep it the way it is, and those = reasons may ultimately win out when all the tradeoffs are considered. I do hope that I think the developers' needs are second to users' needs. = After all, developers are building something FOR users, not [just] for = themselves. Easy for me to say, being a user and not a developer :-)) Michael=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Uschold M&CT, Phantom Works=20 425 373-2845 mic...@bo... =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ---------------------------------------------------- COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go = to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20 -----Original Message----- From: Yaron Koren [mailto:ya...@gm...]=20 Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:11 AM To: Kelly Jones Cc: sem...@li...; sw...@ai... Subject: Re: [swikig] [Semediawiki-user] Modeling "third party" = relations onSemantic Mediawikipage? [Now I don't know which of the two competing threads to respond to... I'm picking this one.] Someone brought it up before, but it's worth repeating: the thing that = makes free-form triples on semantic wikis (in my opinion) very = undesirable is having to deal with conflicts. To borrow from the = original example, if Bob's page lists a population size for Montana, and = Bill's page lists a different population, and Montana's own page lists a = third population altogether, how do you know which one to use? There are other arguments that can be made against free-form triples, = but in a sense they all stem back from this problem of data conflicts. -Yaron On 4/27/07, Kelly Jones <kel...@gm...> wrote: > It seems easy to modify Semantic Mediawiki to allow this? (said by a=20 > very poor programmer). My thoughts: > > % Tweak SMW's hooks to understand [[x::R::y]] to mean the triple x,R,y > > % Add columns to smw_relations/etc to indicate which page created a=20 > given row (it's no longer guarenteed to be the 'subject' page) > > % Tweak the save/delete hooks: when a page is saved, all rows that=20 > page created are deleted and re-created > > % To avoid cacheing issues, if page w has a relation [[x::R::y]],=20 > force-update page x when w is saved. > > Any takers? > > -- > We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying=20 > to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to=20 > new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile. > > On 4/26/07, Uschold, Michael F <mic...@bo...> wrote: > > This seems to confirm that the information given in a prior message=20 > > is incorrect. That person said one COULD create a triple relating=20 > > Idaho and Montana in the Bob page. > > > > Just to be clear. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D > > Michael Uschold > > M&CT, Phantom Works > > 425 373-2845 > > mic...@bo... > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, = go to: > > http://gethuman.com/tips.html > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Max Voelkel [mailto:vo...@fz...] > > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM > > To: Daniel Schwabe > > Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; ba...@ba...;=20 > > sem...@li...; Blanchard, Duane L;=20 > > sw...@ai...; Uschold, Michael F > > Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party"=20 > > relations on Semantic Mediawikipage? > > > > Hi, > > > > the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates = triples. > > Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere. > > > > Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons: > > > > 1) (the important reason) > > > > Make it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples,=20 > > annotated links > > is enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X=20 > > up, but one is > > courious why, it's enough to go to page X and look there.=20 > > There can be no > > ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made. > > > > 2) (the tiny reason) > > It's easier to handle. Whenever a user edits a page X,=20 > > semantic mediawiki > > simply removes all triples (X,*,*), parses the page and=20 > > adds triples as > > needed. > > > > A paper about possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages = > > (the design > > space) is here [1] > > > > > > [1]=20 > > http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wiki > > s > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > Max > > > > -- > > Max V=F6lkel > > http://Xam.de > > > > FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik http://www.FZI.de > > an der Universit=E4t Karlsruhe telephone: = +49-721-9654-0 > > Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14 fax: = +49-721-9654-959 > > D-76131 Karlsruhe > > > > Stiftung des b=FCrgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 = Regierungspr=E4sidium=20 > > Karlsruhe. > > Vorstand: Prof. Dr.-Ing. R=FCdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. = Michael Flor, > > Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi = Studer. > > Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent G=FCnther = Le=DFnerkraus. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2=20 > > Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your = > > XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > Sem...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express = > C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No=20 > limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > _______________________________________________ swikig mailing list sw...@ai... http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig |
From: David K. <ka...@mi...> - 2007-04-29 23:23:51
|
Agreed. I think the best approach is for typical triples not to be "on" any page---rather, various triples from the store are brought out and attached to various pages because they are relevant to those pages. Once they are on those pages they should be editable there. As for the whole issue of "conflicts", I don't think we need to solve it. Disagreement about the population of Montana can arise in a traditional wiki as well. And the (surprisingly) effective technique that wikis use to resolve the problem is simply to let people argue it out on the wiki until it settles down. It may be true that in a traditional wiki, such conflicts can be hidden by the fact that the different, contradictory assertions are placed on different pages, and that a semantic wiki will highlight those contradictions by bringing all those triples together. But in the long run, isn't it better to reveal these contradictions so people can argue them out? Uschold, Michael F wrote: > In a prior post I indicated that you do not want three separate triples on the three separate pages. You merely want them to be visible and editable from there. They could be in a back end store, and viewable from various places. > > This may have architectural impacts, and there may be good reasons from an implementers perspective why to keep it the way it is, and those reasons may ultimately win out when all the tradeoffs are considered. > > I do hope that I think the developers' needs are second to users' needs. After all, developers are building something FOR users, not [just] for themselves. > > Easy for me to say, being a user and not a developer :-)) > > Michael > > ========================== > Michael Uschold > M&CT, Phantom Works > 425 373-2845 > mic...@bo... > ========================== > > ---------------------------------------------------- > COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Yaron Koren [mailto:ya...@gm...] > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:11 AM > To: Kelly Jones > Cc: sem...@li...; sw...@ai... > Subject: Re: [swikig] [Semediawiki-user] Modeling "third party" relations onSemantic Mediawikipage? > > [Now I don't know which of the two competing threads to respond to... > I'm picking this one.] > > Someone brought it up before, but it's worth repeating: the thing that makes free-form triples on semantic wikis (in my opinion) very undesirable is having to deal with conflicts. To borrow from the original example, if Bob's page lists a population size for Montana, and Bill's page lists a different population, and Montana's own page lists a third population altogether, how do you know which one to use? > There are other arguments that can be made against free-form triples, but in a sense they all stem back from this problem of data conflicts. > > -Yaron > > > On 4/27/07, Kelly Jones <kel...@gm...> wrote: > >> It seems easy to modify Semantic Mediawiki to allow this? (said by a >> very poor programmer). My thoughts: >> >> % Tweak SMW's hooks to understand [[x::R::y]] to mean the triple x,R,y >> >> % Add columns to smw_relations/etc to indicate which page created a >> given row (it's no longer guarenteed to be the 'subject' page) >> >> % Tweak the save/delete hooks: when a page is saved, all rows that >> page created are deleted and re-created >> >> % To avoid cacheing issues, if page w has a relation [[x::R::y]], >> force-update page x when w is saved. >> >> Any takers? >> >> -- >> We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying >> to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to >> new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile. >> >> On 4/26/07, Uschold, Michael F <mic...@bo...> wrote: >> >>> This seems to confirm that the information given in a prior message >>> is incorrect. That person said one COULD create a triple relating >>> Idaho and Montana in the Bob page. >>> >>> Just to be clear. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> ========================== >>> Michael Uschold >>> M&CT, Phantom Works >>> 425 373-2845 >>> mic...@bo... >>> ========================== >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>> COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: >>> http://gethuman.com/tips.html >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Max Voelkel [mailto:vo...@fz...] >>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM >>> To: Daniel Schwabe >>> Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; ba...@ba...; >>> sem...@li...; Blanchard, Duane L; >>> sw...@ai...; Uschold, Michael F >>> Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" >>> relations on Semantic Mediawikipage? >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples. >>> Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere. >>> >>> Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons: >>> >>> 1) (the important reason) >>> >>> Make it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, >>> annotated links >>> is enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X >>> up, but one is >>> courious why, it's enough to go to page X and look there. >>> There can be no >>> ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made. >>> >>> 2) (the tiny reason) >>> It's easier to handle. Whenever a user edits a page X, >>> semantic mediawiki >>> simply removes all triples (X,*,*), parses the page and >>> adds triples as >>> needed. >>> >>> A paper about possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages >>> (the design >>> space) is here [1] >>> >>> >>> [1] >>> http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wiki >>> s >>> >>> >>> Kind Regards, >>> Max >>> >>> -- >>> Max Völkel >>> http://Xam.de >>> >>> FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik http://www.FZI.de >>> an der Universität Karlsruhe telephone: +49-721-9654-0 >>> Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14 fax: +49-721-9654-959 >>> D-76131 Karlsruhe >>> >>> Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium >>> Karlsruhe. >>> Vorstand: Prof. Dr.-Ing. Rüdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael Flor, >>> Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer. >>> Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus. >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 >>> Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your >>> XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Semediawiki-user mailing list >>> Sem...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express >> C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No >> limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Semediawiki-user mailing list >> Sem...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > swikig mailing list > sw...@ai... > http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig > > _______________________________________________ > swikig mailing list > sw...@ai... > http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig > > |
From: Sebastian S. <seb...@sa...> - 2007-04-26 19:11:19
|
Max Voelkel schrieb: > Hi, > > the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples. > Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere. > > Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons: > > 1) (the important reason) > > Make it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotated links > is enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but one is > courious why, it's enough to go to page X and look there. There can be no > ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made. > > 2) (the tiny reason) > It's easier to handle. Whenever a user edits a page X, semantic mediawiki > simply removes all triples (X,*,*), parses the page and adds triples as > needed. > > A paper about possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the design > space) is here [1] > Just wanted to mention that IkeWiki - in contrast to Semantic MediaWiki - stores relations separately from the page content and thus does support adding arbitrary relations. There are also several reasons in favor of this approach: 1) (the first important reason) it avoids a maintenance problem, as it is not necessary to check whether a relation has been removed when a page is saved. 2) (the other important reason) this basically allows the system to be used as a full RDF graph editor (with support for the basic OWL constructs). There are some drawbacks of this approach, the main being that versioning of metadata changes is more complex (but we are sure to be able to solve this issue). It is also to a large extent a matter of taste and a matter of which workflow one favors. I even thought about supporting both styles of doing annotations in IkeWiki - it really isn't too hard to do. Greetings, -- Sebastian | Dr. Sebastian Schaffert seb...@sa... | Salzburg Research Forschungsgesellschaft http://www.salzburgresearch.at | Knowledge Based Information Systems +43 662 2288 423 | Jakob-Haringer Strasse 5/II | A-5020 Salzburg PGP Key fingerprint = 13 1D 2E 4F 20 3E C9 1F 4C 57 52 87 8A 80 48 4D F5 E9 97 EC |
From: Uschold, M. F <mic...@bo...> - 2007-04-26 17:52:33
|
See inline comments =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Uschold M&CT, Phantom Works=20 425 373-2845 mic...@bo... =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ---------------------------------------------------- COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Schwabe [mailto:dsc...@in...]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 10:19 AM To: Uschold, Michael F Cc: ba...@ba...; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H; Blanchard, Duane L; sem...@li...; Murray, William R; sw...@ai... Subject: Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage? On 26/4/2007 14:02, Uschold, Michael F wrote: > ... > > This must be new, when I looked into the semantic media wiki months=20 > ago, the only things you could say on a web page are attributions of=20 > the object of the web page. So you could not say Bill is in Idaho, if=20 > you were on Bob's page. > > This was a major design decision in the first release. One that I=20 > found that to be a major limitation, so I stopped trying to use the tool. > > Has this now changed? If so, I think it is a great idea. High=20 > priority should be placed on making it easy to create any triples you want > anytime anywhere. After all, the tuples sit in a common triple store, > there is no reason for them to be strongly associated with any=20 > particular wiki page. > > Where you are and what you are doing when you create a triple should=20 > not be terribly relevant. > =20 To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what you have in mind when you think of a "wiki page"? MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the wiki concept: Idaho. -- Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an attribution (a triple) to this page -=20 should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject, which is a resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you assign to these triples? MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only really has doubles there explicitly, not triples.=20 This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that relates to something else. -- Is it supposed to encapsulate some kind of concept or set of concepts - then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts? Must it be in some sense "self-contained" - relative to some discourse, or relative to some conceptualization schema? I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and scenarios) you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need? MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an instance of some class.=20 So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person. On that page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho borders on Montana. So from the web page, I want to be able to create Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts. Then I want to select each of them, and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn and set that relationship between these two concepts. =20 Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want to see it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me.=20 Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and Montana are say, regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**. =20 ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.=20 Cheers, Daniel --- Daniel Schwabe Dept. de Informatica, PUC-Rio Tel:+55-21-3527 1500 r. 4356 R. M. de S. Vicente, 225 Fax: +55-21-3527 1530 Rio de Janeiro, RJ 22453-900, Brasil http://www.inf.puc-rio.br/~dschwabe |
From: Blanchard, D. L <Dua...@bo...> - 2007-04-26 18:11:12
|
See additional inline comments.... Thx, D ---- Duane L. Blanchard Computational Linguist Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology 425.373.2800 To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what you have in mind when you think of a "wiki page"? MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the wiki concept: Idaho. DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in your mind. -- Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an attribution (a triple) to this page -=20 should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject, which is a resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you assign to these triples? MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only really has doubles there explicitly, not triples.=20 This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that relates to something else. DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a concept and each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject. DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki but not to a page. -- Is it supposed to encapsulate some kind of concept or set of concepts - then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts? Must it be in some sense "self-contained" - relative to some discourse, or relative to some conceptualization schema? I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and scenarios) you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need? MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an instance of some class.=20 So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person. On that page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho borders on Montana. So from the web page, I want to be able to create Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts. Then I want to select each of them, and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn and set that relationship between these two concepts. =20 Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want to see it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me.=20 Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and Montana are say, regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**. =20 ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.=20 DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't associate it with any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In SemMedWiki, I would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change there. DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist without also being pages? |
From: Mark G. <Ma...@vu...> - 2007-04-26 22:38:51
|
Mike, > Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be > associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want=20 > to see it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me.=20 I disagree with this. In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of social editing and the social identification and correction of errors, they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of relatively untrained people. In order to maximize the number of people who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process for making corrections to ordinary wikitext. So, rather than force triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the subject page. Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute over the value of a triple. This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more cumbersome. Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki editors. Mark Mark Greaves Vulcan Inc. 505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 342-2276 (voice) (206) 342-3276 (fax) =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Blanchard, Duane L [mailto:Dua...@bo...]=20 > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:10 AM > To: Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe > Cc: ba...@ba...; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H;=20 > sem...@li...; Murray, William R;=20 > sw...@ai...; Mark Greaves;=20 > csh...@vi... > Subject: RE: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki '' >=20 > See additional inline comments.... >=20 > Thx, >=20 > D >=20 > ---- > Duane L. Blanchard > Computational Linguist > Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology > 425.373.2800 >=20 > To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what=20 > you have in > mind when you think of a "wiki page"? >=20 > MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like > say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the > wiki concept: Idaho. >=20 > DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is > the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in=20 > your mind. > -- >=20 > Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a > "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an=20 > attribution > (a triple) to this page -=20 > should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject,=20 > which is a > resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you=20 > assign to these > triples? >=20 >=20 > MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That > is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject > explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only=20 > really has > doubles there explicitly, not triples.=20 >=20 > This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that=20 > relates to > something else. >=20 > DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a=20 > concept and > each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject. >=20 > DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki > but not to a page. > -- >=20 > Is it supposed to encapsulate some kind of concept or set of=20 > concepts - > then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts? > Must it be in some sense "self-contained" - relative to some=20 > discourse, > or relative to some conceptualization schema? > I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and=20 > scenarios) > you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped > trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need? >=20 > MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an > instance of some class.=20 > So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person. On that > page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in > Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also > mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho > borders on Montana. So from the web page, I want to be able to create > Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts. Then I want to select=20 > each of them, > and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn > and set that relationship between these two concepts. =20 >=20 > Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be > associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want=20 > to see it. > I want the tool to take care of all that for me.=20 >=20 > Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and=20 > Montana are say, > regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**. =20 >=20 > ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an > associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.=20 >=20 > DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual > Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't=20 > associate it with > any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In=20 > SemMedWiki, I > would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change > there. >=20 > DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist > without also being pages? >=20 |
From: Sebastian S. <seb...@sa...> - 2007-04-27 07:30:08
|
Mark Greaves schrieb: > Mike, > > >> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be >> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want >> to see it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >> > > I disagree with this. In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of > social editing and the social identification and correction of errors, > they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of > relatively untrained people. In order to maximize the number of people > who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the > triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process > for making corrections to ordinary wikitext. So, rather than force > triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes > more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the > subject page. Why the subject and not e.g. the object? What you suggest is a very limited approach to navigation for triples. I can imagine a wide variety of different ways to locate and edit a triple, e.g.: - at the object - at a page describing the property - at a page describing the class of the subject - at a page describing the class of the subject - at domain specific editors that allow to perform more complex metadata operations (RDF is just like assembler - why should I need to work directly with triples?) -- Sebastian | Dr. Sebastian Schaffert seb...@sa... | Salzburg Research Forschungsgesellschaft http://www.salzburgresearch.at | Knowledge Based Information Systems +43 662 2288 423 | Jakob-Haringer Strasse 5/II | A-5020 Salzburg PGP Key fingerprint = 13 1D 2E 4F 20 3E C9 1F 4C 57 52 87 8A 80 48 4D F5 E9 97 EC |
From: Uschold, M. F <mic...@bo...> - 2007-04-27 15:56:46
|
This is well stated. I agree completely. Mike =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Uschold M&CT, Phantom Works=20 425 373-2845 mic...@bo... =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ---------------------------------------------------- COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20 -----Original Message----- From: Sebastian Schaffert [mailto:seb...@sa...]=20 Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 12:30 AM To: Mark Greaves Cc: Blanchard, Duane L; Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe; sem...@li...; Murray, William R; Jones, David H; sw...@ai... Subject: Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki '' Mark Greaves schrieb: > Mike, > > =20 >> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be=20 >> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want to see=20 >> it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >> =20 > > I disagree with this. In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of=20 > social editing and the social identification and correction of errors, > they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of > relatively untrained people. In order to maximize the number of=20 > people who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and=20 > editing the triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the=20 > already-known process for making corrections to ordinary wikitext. =20 > So, rather than force triple-editing to go through some kind of=20 > searchbox interface, it makes more sense to me to make the triples=20 > embed in the wikitext of the subject page. Why the subject and not e.g. the object? What you suggest is a very limited approach to navigation for triples. I can imagine a wide variety of different ways to locate and edit a triple, e.g.: - at the object - at a page describing the property - at a page describing the class of the subject - at a page describing the class of the subject - at domain specific editors that allow to perform more complex metadata operations (RDF is just like assembler - why should I need to work directly with triples?) -- Sebastian | Dr. Sebastian Schaffert seb...@sa... | Salzburg Research Forschungsgesellschaft http://www.salzburgresearch.at | Knowledge Based Information Systems +43 662 2288 423 | Jakob-Haringer Strasse 5/II | A-5020 Salzburg PGP Key fingerprint =3D 13 1D 2E 4F 20 3E C9 1F 4C 57 52 87 8A 80 48 4D F5 E9 97 EC=20 |
From: Uschold, M. F <mic...@bo...> - 2007-04-27 16:24:21
|
> What you suggest is a very limited approach to navigation for triples. > I can imagine a wide variety of different ways to locate and edit a=20 > triple, e.g.: > - at the object > - at a page describing the property > - at a page describing the class of the subject > - at a page describing the class of the subject > - at domain specific editors that allow to perform more complex=20 > metadata operations (RDF is just like assembler - why should I need to > work directly with triples?) Exactly. Of course you don't want three independent copies of the same triple three different places. It could be in one place, (e.g. a triple store of some sort). =20 If you are on a page describing the property, or the subject or object of the triple, then the wiki can go find the triples when it shows a page, and present them, so they are virtually in three different places. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Uschold M&CT, Phantom Works=20 425 373-2845 mic...@bo... =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ---------------------------------------------------- COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20 -----Original Message----- From: Jochen Schmidt [mailto:js...@co...]=20 Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 4:15 AM To: Sebastian Schaffert Cc: Jones, David H; sem...@li...; Blanchard, Duane L; Mark Greaves; Murray, William R; sw...@ai... Subject: Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki '' Am 27.04.2007 um 09:29 schrieb Sebastian Schaffert: > Mark Greaves schrieb: >> Mike, >> >> >>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be=20 >>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want to see >>> it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >>> >> >> I disagree with this. In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of=20 >> social editing and the social identification and correction of=20 >> errors, they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large=20 >> number of relatively untrained people. In order to maximize the=20 >> number of people who can access/edit the triples, the process of=20 >> locating and editing the triples needs to be as parallel as possible=20 >> to the already-known process for making corrections to ordinary=20 >> wikitext. So, rather than force triple-editing to go through some=20 >> kind of searchbox interface, it makes more sense to me to make the=20 >> triples embed in the wikitext of the subject page. > > Why the subject and not e.g. the object? > > What you suggest is a very limited approach to navigation for triples. > I can imagine a wide variety of different ways to locate and edit a=20 > triple, e.g.: > - at the object > - at a page describing the property > - at a page describing the class of the subject > - at a page describing the class of the subject > - at domain specific editors that allow to perform more complex=20 > metadata operations (RDF is just like assembler - why should I need to > work directly with triples?) > (Sorry for quoting the whole thing again.) I can (partially) agree to both arguments. It is IMHO a good idea to make the process of finding and editing triples (better "statements"?) to be as parallel as possible. This is why I prefer to annotate directly in the wiki-text and not for example have the wiki text and the metadata separated. Separating metadata from the wiki- content makes the whole thing look like a sticky tape prototype and can easily lead to the semantic wiki equivalent of a "split brain syndrome". As I said some time ago; this doesn't mean that one has to use markup-syntax, which is a completely orthogonal issue. It's works quite well to have a WYSIWYG editor with special commands to handle the annotation. I agree, that restricting the annotation by attaching triples only to their subject-pages is a quite limited way. There is a very interesting use case in being able to add triples to a wiki-page (a resource) from other sources. Think about describing resources to which you do not have the rights or possibility to edit. This way you can e. g. also describe external resources in the wiki without relying on crude owl:sameAs mappings. -- Jochen Schmidt js...@co... http://www.codeartist.org _______________________________________________ swikig mailing list sw...@ai... http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig |
From: S P. <ski...@ea...> - 2007-04-30 23:37:56
|
Uschold, Michael F wrote: > Exactly. Of course you don't want three independent copies of the same > triple three different places. It could be in one place, (e.g. a triple > store of some sort). > If you are on a page describing the property, or the subject or object > of the triple, then the wiki can go find the triples when it shows a > page, and present them, so they are virtually in three different places. Semantic MediaWiki works this way. It parses annotations on the subject page, stores them, and allows querying so that: * You can put inline queries on pages where you want to show facts from elsewhere. * Version 0.7 now automatically shows triples using a predicate on the predicate's page, e.g. http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Relation:Written_by, and there's a code change to show triples on the object's page as well. * ontoworld.org editors quickly developed an {{ask}} template that would use domain-specific knowledge to put inline queries for relevant facts on many kinds of pages. IMO the obvious "place" for facts to live is on the wiki page for the subject in the triple, especially in a wiki where editors write natural language "born in [[Little Rock]] and married to [[Hillary Clinton]]..." , etc. that lends itself to in-line semantic annotation. Everything's hyperlinked so you can easily navigate to the subject and make edits. But as Wikipedia increasingly uses templates to express facts, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Country , then taking users to a template editor that edits triples independently of pages also makes sense. I just don't see how to square this with annotating natural language in wiki pages. A triple navigator without natural language is not appealing to an average Web user, and having to write query/transclusion syntax just to make sentences like "born in Little Rock and married to Hillary Clinton..." appear in pages is not appealing to an average wiki editor. Has anyone (besides Ted Nelson's mind :-) ) written an editor UI where you can drag parts of existing triples into sentences, and select part of a sentence and turn it into a triple? That would be an amazing solution to this problem. As you're writing about [[Germany]] you see all the existing triples referencing it and can drag them in at will, and you can create new triples as you type. Regards and pardon my abuse of ontology terminology :-) -- =S Page |
From: Uschold, M. F <mic...@bo...> - 2007-05-01 03:25:16
|
So if you already are moving to where you can create triples on forms independently form a page, then I have what I'm asking for, more or less. The remaining question is: =20 "how to square this with annotating natural language in wiki pages." Don't know the answer to that one. If people really want to do that as well as on forms, then it is tricky. M. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Uschold M&CT, Phantom Works=20 425 373-2845 mic...@bo... =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ---------------------------------------------------- COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20 -----Original Message----- From: S Page [mailto:ski...@ea...]=20 Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 4:39 PM To: Uschold, Michael F Cc: Semediawiki Users; sw...@ai... Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a SemanticWiki '' Uschold, Michael F wrote: > Exactly. Of course you don't want three independent copies of the=20 > same triple three different places. It could be in one place, (e.g. a > triple store of some sort). > If you are on a page describing the property, or the subject or object > of the triple, then the wiki can go find the triples when it shows a=20 > page, and present them, so they are virtually in three different places. Semantic MediaWiki works this way. It parses annotations on the subject page, stores them, and allows querying so that: * You can put inline queries on pages where you want to show facts from elsewhere. * Version 0.7 now automatically shows triples using a predicate on the predicate's page, e.g. http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Relation:Written_by, and there's a code change to show triples on the object's page as well. * ontoworld.org editors quickly developed an {{ask}} template that would use domain-specific knowledge to put inline queries for relevant facts on many kinds of pages. IMO the obvious "place" for facts to live is on the wiki page for the subject in the triple, especially in a wiki where editors write natural language "born in [[Little Rock]] and married to [[Hillary Clinton]]..." , etc. that lends itself to in-line semantic annotation. Everything's hyperlinked so you can easily navigate to the subject and make edits. But as Wikipedia increasingly uses templates to express facts, e.g.=20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_Country , then taking users to a template editor that edits triples independently of pages also makes sense. I just don't see how to square this with annotating natural language in wiki pages. A triple navigator without natural language is not appealing to an average Web user, and having to write query/transclusion syntax just to make sentences like "born in Little Rock and married to Hillary Clinton..." appear in pages is not appealing to an average wiki editor. Has anyone (besides Ted Nelson's mind :-) ) written an editor UI where you can drag parts of existing triples into sentences, and select part of a sentence and turn it into a triple? That would be an amazing solution to this problem. As you're writing about [[Germany]] you see all the existing triples referencing it and can drag them in at will, and you can create new triples as you type. Regards and pardon my abuse of ontology terminology :-) -- =3DS Page |
From: Daniel S. <dsc...@in...> - 2007-04-26 23:01:55
|
It seems to me that some of the variance in views here regards what each one understands as a "wiki", in this context. Suppose we consider it, as, loosely speaking, a tool for the collective production and editing of knowledge, by technically untrained people. To some, this knowledge as being represented as triples. Others view it as being represented in the text itself (hence, not really processable), and still others may see it as a combination of both. The first alternative does not really look like a wiki as most people would think of it; I suspect the third one is the more common understanding of what a "semantic wiki" would be. (Btw, I don't see such an advantage to regard a wiki as simply a "text based" interface to directly edit RDF or OWL ontologies... but this is another discussion perhaps). I can't see how to analize advantages/disadvantages of any of the alternatives before it is clear which paradigm is being followed, If you take the first point of view, I'd tend to agree with Mark's remarks. If you take the third point of view, it is not so clear... This is essentially why I asked Mike to make the usage scenarios a bit more explicit; I'd like to understand better how is the formal (i.e. triples) knowledge is being created, edited AND USED in the first and third alternatives above. So, in summary, what is (more precisely) the problem being addressed in using the wiki? On 26/4/2007 19:39, Mark Greaves wrote: > Mike, > > >> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be >> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want >> to see it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >> > > I disagree with this. In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of > social editing and the social identification and correction of errors, > they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of > relatively untrained people. In order to maximize the number of people > who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the > triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process > for making corrections to ordinary wikitext. So, rather than force > triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes > more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the > subject page. Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of > using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute > over the value of a triple. > > This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more > cumbersome. Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of > making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki > editors. > > Mark > > Mark Greaves > Vulcan Inc. > 505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > (206) 342-2276 (voice) > (206) 342-3276 (fax) > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Blanchard, Duane L [mailto:Dua...@bo...] >> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:10 AM >> To: Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe >> Cc: ba...@ba...; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H; >> sem...@li...; Murray, William R; >> sw...@ai...; Mark Greaves; >> csh...@vi... >> Subject: RE: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki '' >> >> See additional inline comments.... >> >> Thx, >> >> D >> >> ---- >> Duane L. Blanchard >> Computational Linguist >> Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology >> 425.373.2800 >> >> To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what >> you have in >> mind when you think of a "wiki page"? >> >> MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like >> say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the >> wiki concept: Idaho. >> >> DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is >> the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in >> your mind. >> -- >> >> Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a >> "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an >> attribution >> (a triple) to this page - >> should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject, >> which is a >> resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you >> assign to these >> triples? >> >> >> MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That >> is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject >> explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only >> really has >> doubles there explicitly, not triples. >> >> This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that >> relates to >> something else. >> >> DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a >> concept and >> each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject. >> >> DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki >> but not to a page. >> -- >> >> Is it supposed to encapsulate some kind of concept or set of >> concepts - >> then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts? >> Must it be in some sense "self-contained" - relative to some >> discourse, >> or relative to some conceptualization schema? >> I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and >> scenarios) >> you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped >> trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need? >> >> MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an >> instance of some class. >> So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person. On that >> page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in >> Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also >> mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho >> borders on Montana. So from the web page, I want to be able to create >> Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts. Then I want to select >> each of them, >> and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn >> and set that relationship between these two concepts. >> >> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be >> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want >> to see it. >> I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >> >> Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and >> Montana are say, >> regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**. >> >> ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an >> associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue. >> >> DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual >> Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't >> associate it with >> any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In >> SemMedWiki, I >> would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change >> there. >> >> DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist >> without also being pages? >> >> > > > |
From: <and...@se...> - 2007-04-27 11:19:28
|
(sorry for multiple copies - honestly this thread has too many To: and Cc: to understand ....) While I personally like the page-centric approach of SemMediaWiki, I always believed that an additional feature allowing a free flow of triples would be convenient. However, these should be, IMHO, confined in pages without subject, or with multiple subject. To attempt a parallel with the 'unplugged' wiki, there are 'encyclopedic' pages on specific subjects like [[Edgar Varese]], and 'flow of thought' pages like [[Influence of Varese music in Frank Zappa production]] without a clear subject. In the latter case, I would like to see a straight implementation of N3, instead of strange wiki-syntax deviations. Maybe something in the style suggested by http://www.wikisophia.org/wiki/Wikitex. Andrea Daniel Schwabe ha scritto: > It seems to me that some of the variance in views here regards what each > one understands as a "wiki", in this context. > Suppose we consider it, as, loosely speaking, a tool for the collective > production and editing of knowledge, by technically untrained people. To > some, this knowledge as being represented as triples. Others view it as > being represented in the text itself (hence, not really processable), > and still others may see it as a combination of both. > The first alternative does not really look like a wiki as most people > would think of it; I suspect the third one is the more common > understanding of what a "semantic wiki" would be. > (Btw, I don't see such an advantage to regard a wiki as simply a "text > based" interface to directly edit RDF or OWL ontologies... but this is > another discussion perhaps). > I can't see how to analize advantages/disadvantages of any of the > alternatives before it is clear which paradigm is being followed, If you > take the first point of view, I'd tend to agree with Mark's remarks. If > you take the third point of view, it is not so clear... > This is essentially why I asked Mike to make the usage scenarios a bit > more explicit; I'd like to understand better how is the formal (i.e. > triples) knowledge is being created, edited AND USED in the first and > third alternatives above. > So, in summary, what is (more precisely) the problem being addressed in > using the wiki? > > On 26/4/2007 19:39, Mark Greaves wrote: >> Mike, >> >> >>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be >>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want >>> to see it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >>> >> I disagree with this. In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of >> social editing and the social identification and correction of errors, >> they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of >> relatively untrained people. In order to maximize the number of people >> who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the >> triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process >> for making corrections to ordinary wikitext. So, rather than force >> triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes >> more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the >> subject page. Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of >> using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute >> over the value of a triple. >> >> This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more >> cumbersome. Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of >> making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki >> editors. >> >> Mark >> >> Mark Greaves >> Vulcan Inc. >> 505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900 >> Seattle, WA 98104 >> >> (206) 342-2276 (voice) >> (206) 342-3276 (fax) >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Blanchard, Duane L [mailto:Dua...@bo...] >>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:10 AM >>> To: Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe >>> Cc: ba...@ba...; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H; >>> sem...@li...; Murray, William R; >>> sw...@ai...; Mark Greaves; >>> csh...@vi... >>> Subject: RE: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki '' >>> >>> See additional inline comments.... >>> >>> Thx, >>> >>> D >>> >>> ---- >>> Duane L. Blanchard >>> Computational Linguist >>> Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology >>> 425.373.2800 >>> >>> To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what >>> you have in >>> mind when you think of a "wiki page"? >>> >>> MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like >>> say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the >>> wiki concept: Idaho. >>> >>> DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is >>> the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in >>> your mind. >>> -- >>> >>> Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a >>> "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an >>> attribution >>> (a triple) to this page - >>> should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject, >>> which is a >>> resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you >>> assign to these >>> triples? >>> >>> >>> MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That >>> is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject >>> explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only >>> really has >>> doubles there explicitly, not triples. >>> >>> This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that >>> relates to >>> something else. >>> >>> DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a >>> concept and >>> each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject. >>> >>> DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki >>> but not to a page. >>> -- >>> >>> Is it supposed to encapsulate some kind of concept or set of >>> concepts - >>> then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts? >>> Must it be in some sense "self-contained" - relative to some >>> discourse, >>> or relative to some conceptualization schema? >>> I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and >>> scenarios) >>> you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped >>> trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need? >>> >>> MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an >>> instance of some class. >>> So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person. On that >>> page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in >>> Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also >>> mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho >>> borders on Montana. So from the web page, I want to be able to create >>> Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts. Then I want to select >>> each of them, >>> and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn >>> and set that relationship between these two concepts. >>> >>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be >>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want >>> to see it. >>> I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >>> >>> Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and >>> Montana are say, >>> regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**. >>> >>> ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an >>> associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue. >>> >>> DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual >>> Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't >>> associate it with >>> any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In >>> SemMedWiki, I >>> would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change >>> there. >>> >>> DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist >>> without also being pages? >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > swikig mailing list > sw...@ai... > http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig > > > |