From: Alex M. H. <amh...@on...> - 2011-02-01 23:48:56
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Hi Yaron and/or list, I have 3 observations/questions about SIO (0.6.3 on SMW 1.5.5.1, MW 1.16.1), but first, Yaron, thanks for your incredible work in building this! On to the questions. I'm not sure if these are features, bugs, or known/expected behavior, as I have not been able to find concrete answers on the SIO extension main page, talk page, or this list. Demo page: http://scratchpad.referata.com/wiki/SIOCategoryTest 1) Last year's SIO extension talk page on mediawiki.org hints that it may not be possible to query for internal object values as well as the categories for pages that contain the internal objects, and that SIO objects cannot contain actual categories. Is all of this accurate? If so, I think it might be helpful to move this information to the main extension page and README to help keep users from getting frustrated. 2) It does not seem possible to add pseudo-categories or property values to internal objects via a #show: or #ask: statement (even when queried against different pages from the one on which the object appears). Is this known/expected behavior? 3) It does not seem possible to browse SIO properties in the Special:Browse interface. Is this known/expected? If so, is there any possibility that SIO-set properties will be viewable via Special:Browse in the future? As a side note, it looks like it is still sometimes necessary to save 2-3 times for SIO data to "stick". I'm not sure if this is because of Referata's caching settings or an issue internal to SIO, but it seems like it could be a problem for some users. Any thoughts/insights would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Alex -- ontolawgy™ LLC: connect . . . the . . . dots™ http://ontolawgy.com |
From: Yaron K. <ya...@gm...> - 2011-02-02 03:22:43
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Hi Alex, It's great to hear that you're enjoying SIO, despite all the problems it evidently has. :) One issue at a time: - Querying on SIOs works the same as querying on regular pages: you can't query on a combination of property and category. I wouldn't call that an SIO issue - it's just a limitation of SMW queries. (Although you could make the case that it's a bigger issue when using SIO.) - Yes, you can't attach a category to an internal object. I would think that's obvious, but maybe not - it's always hard to judge what needs explaining and what doesn't. - I'm not sure if I understand the 2nd question - it works on the demo page you created, doesn't it? - Yes, internal objects don't show up in Special:Browse. It's something I definitely hope gets improved; see here: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap#Better_integration_with_Semantic_Internal_Objects - I haven't heard of needing to save SIOs more than once, so I'm guessing it's a query-caching issue. But if you know an exact set of steps to reproduce the problem, I'd be glad to see it. -Yaron On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Alex M. Hendler <amh...@on...>wrote: > Hi Yaron and/or list, > > I have 3 observations/questions about SIO (0.6.3 on SMW 1.5.5.1, MW > 1.16.1), but first, Yaron, thanks for your incredible work in building > this! > > On to the questions. I'm not sure if these are features, bugs, or > known/expected behavior, as I have not been able to find concrete > answers on the SIO extension main page, talk page, or this list. > > Demo page: http://scratchpad.referata.com/wiki/SIOCategoryTest > > 1) Last year's SIO extension talk page on mediawiki.org hints that it > may not be possible to query for internal object values as well as the > categories for pages that contain the internal objects, and that SIO > objects cannot contain actual categories. Is all of this accurate? If > so, I think it might be helpful to move this information to the main > extension page and README to help keep users from getting frustrated. > > 2) It does not seem possible to add pseudo-categories or property values > to internal objects via a #show: or #ask: statement (even when queried > against different pages from the one on which the object appears). Is > this known/expected behavior? > > 3) It does not seem possible to browse SIO properties in the > Special:Browse interface. Is this known/expected? If so, is there any > possibility that SIO-set properties will be viewable via Special:Browse > in the future? > > As a side note, it looks like it is still sometimes necessary to save > 2-3 times for SIO data to "stick". I'm not sure if this is because of > Referata's caching settings or an issue internal to SIO, but it seems > like it could be a problem for some users. > > Any thoughts/insights would be very much appreciated. > > Thanks, > Alex > > > -- > ontolawgy™ LLC: connect . . . the . . . dots™ > http://ontolawgy.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Special Offer-- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE (a $49 USD value)! > Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better > price-free! > Download using promo code Free_Logger_4_Dev2Dev. Offer expires > February 28th, so secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsight-sfd2d > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > -- WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com |
From: Alex M. H. <amh...@on...> - 2011-02-02 08:14:16
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Hi Yaron, Thanks for the clarifications! My responses are below: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Yaron Koren <ya...@gm...> > To: Alex M. Hendler <amh...@on...> > Cc: semediawiki-user <sem...@li...> > Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] [SIO] Questions: Category query? > Setting properties via #show: or #ask:? "Browse" capability? > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 22:22:36 -0500 > > Hi Alex, > > It's great to hear that you're enjoying SIO, despite all the problems > it evidently has. :) > > One issue at a time: > > - Querying on SIOs works the same as querying on regular pages: you > can't query on a combination of property and category. I wouldn't call > that an SIO issue - it's just a limitation of SMW queries. (Although > you could make the case that it's a bigger issue when using SIO.) This has not been my experience with SMW with ordinary properties: it seems to work pretty well, e.g., Query 2 on http://scratchpad.referata.com/wiki/SIOCategoryTest. However, I have noticed that for more complex queries (i.e., more than one property value) the Category restriction needs to come first for the query to work reliably. (I think you may be talking about something like [[Part of.Category::etc - I understand that this should never work unless there's a property called "Category", which would be a very bad idea). In any event, because of the issue below, this is a rather big issue when using SIO if one meaningfully uses categories. > > - Yes, you can't attach a category to an internal object. I would > think that's obvious, but maybe not - it's always hard to judge what > needs explaining and what doesn't. > Good to know, thanks. I would vote for "This needs explaining", even the part about not being able to query for an object on a containing page's category unless that's explicitly included in the internal object as a property, rather than a category. > > - I'm not sure if I understand the 2nd question - it works on the demo > page you created, doesn't it? It didn't at first, but that was likely the result of user error: I hadn't set the type for "Contents", and one of the values contained a "#"; setting the "Contents" property to string type fixed this issue. Lessons (for me, at least): a) Untyped properties are evil; and b) page-type properties containing "#" won't work as SIO values. > > - Yes, internal objects don't show up in Special:Browse. It's > something I definitely hope gets improved; see here: > > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap#Better_integration_with_Semantic_Internal_Objects > Great! Hopefully that will be possible soon. > - I haven't heard of needing to save SIOs more than once, so I'm > guessing it's a query-caching issue. But if you know an exact set of > steps to reproduce the problem, I'd be glad to see it. I agree it is almost certainly a query-caching or job run issue; here are the steps in any case: 1) Set an SIO value from its containing page (e.g., the FakeCategory property) via #show or #ask. 2) Query for the value on the container page or another page (e.g., http://scratchpad.referata.com/wiki/SIO_Page_1). Results do not match. 3) Re-save the first page and query will work there. 4) Re-save the other page if a query for the object is there. 5) Query works. Try changing the values in Set interal 4 on http://scratchpad.referata.com/wiki/SIOCategoryTest and observing on that page or SIO Page 1. The change won't show up on SIO Page 1 even after mutiple Ctrl+Shift+R/Ctrl+F5 reloads in Firefox. A null edit on SIO Page 1 seems to refresh it. On my installations ($wgJobRunRate = 1, MagicNoCache extension) this is not an issue. In the course of investigating this, I also found that SIO will in some instances bypass my hack that allows different levels of recursion for semantic and non-semantic data for embedded pages, which leads me to an additional question (not entirely related to SIO): Is it possible to set some sort "noinclude" flag within an internal object so the object is not included when its containing page is embedded, or must one just enclose the object in <noinclude> tags? If the latter, that's rather impractical (at least in my case) without a template, which seems to be rather tricky (probably the subject of another message, which I'll send to the list shortly). Please let me know if you need/want any more details. Thanks, Alex > > -Yaron On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Alex M. Hendler <amh...@on...> wrote: Hi Yaron and/or list, I have 3 observations/questions about SIO (0.6.3 on SMW 1.5.5.1, MW 1.16.1), but first, Yaron, thanks for your incredible work in building this! On to the questions. I'm not sure if these are features, bugs, or known/expected behavior, as I have not been able to find concrete answers on the SIO extension main page, talk page, or this list. Demo page: http://scratchpad.referata.com/wiki/SIOCategoryTest 1) Last year's SIO extension talk page on mediawiki.org hints that it may not be possible to query for internal object values as well as the categories for pages that contain the internal objects, and that SIO objects cannot contain actual categories. Is all of this accurate? If so, I think it might be helpful to move this information to the main extension page and README to help keep users from getting frustrated. 2) It does not seem possible to add pseudo-categories or property values to internal objects via a #show: or #ask: statement (even when queried against different pages from the one on which the object appears). Is this known/expected behavior? 3) It does not seem possible to browse SIO properties in the Special:Browse interface. Is this known/expected? If so, is there any possibility that SIO-set properties will be viewable via Special:Browse in the future? As a side note, it looks like it is still sometimes necessary to save 2-3 times for SIO data to "stick". I'm not sure if this is because of Referata's caching settings or an issue internal to SIO, but it seems like it could be a problem for some users. Any thoughts/insights would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Alex -- ontolawgy™ LLC: connect . . . the . . . dots™ http://ontolawgy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Special Offer-- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE (a $49 USD value)! Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better price-free! Download using promo code Free_Logger_4_Dev2Dev. Offer expires February 28th, so secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY! http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsight-sfd2d _______________________________________________ Semediawiki-user mailing list Sem...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user -- WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com |