From: Dan T. <geo...@gm...> - 2007-09-08 12:24:24
|
I have run across a concept called 'dated integer' that I propose become a native SMW data type. As the name implies, one can associate a number with a year: population:=9,999 - 2005 or homeruns:=756 - 2007-08-07. Do others think this would be useful? -- -- Dan Thomas |
From: Harold S. <hso...@ap...> - 2007-09-10 19:19:47
|
Dan, =20 Why just integers? It would seem like it would be useful to be able to add provenance (who, when, where...) information to any property - not just integers. President:=3DJohnson - 1965 or hasChild :: Sarah - = 2003 definedIn:=3Dhttp://w3.org/sample/prelimVersion 2007-08-07 =20 Harold Solbrig =20 ________________________________ From: sem...@li... [mailto:sem...@li...] On Behalf Of Dan Thomas Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:24 AM To: Sem...@li... Subject: [SMW-devel] dated integer type =20 I have run across a concept called 'dated integer' that I propose become a native SMW data type. As the name implies, one can associate a number with a year:=20 population:=3D9,999 - 2005 or=20 homeruns:=3D756 - 2007-08-07. Do others think this would be useful? --=20 -- Dan Thomas |
From: Jeff T. <je...@th...> - 2007-09-10 23:24:40
|
RDF has two ways to handle this. I don't think SMW supports either in a direct way. 1. Blank nodes. Instead of a property having a value of type integer, it has a value of a composite type that has an integer, date, etc. Since it is a "blank node" you don't need to create a unique URI for it (or its own page in SMW). "Blank nodes" are used in RDF all the time, for example as the nodes in a list, or to mention "the person that has email address geo...@gm..." without needing to give that object its own unique identifier, and also to make "composite types" like the date/integer you mention. 2. Reification. If your statement is "San Francisco has population 739426", then you make a separate object of type Statement where the subject is "San Francisco", the predicate is "has population" and the object is "739426". Then you can extend this to say "this statement" is true on the date 2005. (Since the Statement object is usually a blank node, it kind of amounts to the same as option 1.) The closest thing I see in in SWM is Type:Geographic coordinate which is basically a blank node with a latitude and longitude property. Are there any plans in SMW to support blank nodes, custom composite types, or reification? - Jeff Harold Solbrig wrote: > Dan, > > > > Why just integers? It would seem like it would be useful to be able to add provenance (who, when, where…) information to any property – not just integers. President:=Johnson - 1965 or hasChild :: Sarah – 2003 definedIn:=http://w3.org/sample/prelimVersion 2007-08-07 > > > > Harold Solbrig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* sem...@li... [mailto:sem...@li...] *On Behalf Of *Dan Thomas > *Sent:* Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:24 AM > *To:* Sem...@li... > *Subject:* [SMW-devel] dated integer type > > > > I have run across a concept called 'dated integer' that I propose become a native SMW data type. As the name implies, one can associate a number with a year: > > population:=9,999 - 2005 or > homeruns:=756 - 2007-08-07. > > Do others think this would be useful? > > -- > -- > Dan Thomas |
From: S P. <in...@sk...> - 2007-09-11 06:35:19
|
Yaron Koren wrote: > Can you explain the reasoning that went into this [the composite type] decision? Sorry, no. I'm more an early user of Semantic MediaWiki 1.0pre-alpha3 than a developer. I'm trying it out, filing bugs, and writing docs but AFAIK the development was Deutschland und AIFB Karlsruhe über alles ;-) -- =S |
From: Jeff T. <je...@th...> - 2007-09-11 16:03:12
|
Where does the discussion on new features happen? I thought it was this list. Are you saying development happens in German on some other list? Is it an open process or just private chat between a few developers? Thanks, - Jeff S Page wrote: > Yaron Koren wrote: > >> Can you explain the reasoning that went into this [the composite type] decision? > > AFAIK the development was Deutschland und AIFB Karlsruhe über alles ;-) |
From: S P. <in...@sk...> - 2007-09-12 22:29:49
|
Jeff Thompson wrote: > Are you saying development happens in German on some other list? No, I was just saying Markus and Denny and I think some other developers in Germany wrote all the new code since 0.7 (and I thanked them with part of the German national anthem). -- =S German women, German loyalty, German wine and German song Shall retain in the world Their old beautiful ring And inspire us to noble deeds During all of our life. |
From: Jeff T. <je...@th...> - 2007-09-20 20:19:43
|
What are the plans in Semantic Mediawiki to capture citations? I ask because, for a "cited by" property, the subject is not the article, but a particular assertion made within the article. For example the article for Germany: http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Germany says it has [[area::357,050km²]] This might be followed by a citation link to the World Factbook, but the link is not connected in a semantic way. You might add a property inside the assertion like this: [[area::357,050km² [[cited by::https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html]] ]] If not this, then are there plans to formally capture citations? |
From: S P. <in...@sk...> - 2007-09-11 04:22:29
|
Jeff Thompson wrote: > RDF has two ways to handle this. I don't think SMW supports either in a direct way. > 1. Blank nodes. Instead of a property having a value of type integer, it has a value > of a composite type that has an integer, date, etc. Since it is a "blank node" you > don't need to create a unique URI for it (or its own page in SMW). "Blank nodes" are > used in RDF all the time, for example as the nodes in a list, or to mention "the person > that has email address geo...@gm..." without needing to give that object its own > unique identifier, and also to make "composite types" like the date/integer you mention. > 2. Reification. If your statement is "San Francisco has population 739426", then you make > a separate object of type Statement where the subject is "San Francisco", the predicate is > "has population" and the object is "739426". Then you can extend this to say "this statement" > is true on the date 2005. (Since the Statement object is usually a blank node, it kind of > amounts to the same as option 1.) > > The closest thing I see in in SWM is Type:Geographic coordinate which is basically a blank node > with a latitude and longitude property. Are there any plans in SMW to support blank nodes, custom > composite types, or reification? I just described SMW 1.0prealpha-3's support for N-ary properties in response to [Semediawiki-user] Typed links vs. OWL-relations [1], the same applies here. Property:Population_(on_date) would have [[Has type::Integer; Date]] The Berlin article would say [[Population (on date)::3405000; 2006-11| 3,405,000 as of November 2006]] You can omit values, so you could have lots of optional values for a property as Harold Solbrig suggested. Try it out, http://ontoworld.org/wiki/N-ary_relations and http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Berlin Maybe SMW's N-ary feature is your "blank node", I'm not sure of the nomenclature. As I understand it "reification" is more for talking about the statement (who made it, when they made it, where it appeared) rather than facts within the statement (the date range over which it's true, additional facts qualifying it). Your idea to make an underlying compound datatype for all properties with the same set of values is nice; you could then say Property:Population [[Has type::Dated_integer]]. But that's not how SMW works currently. BTW, although Type:Geographic_coordinate seems like a compound type, it still has to fit all its information into the generic smw_attributes database table -- new columns don't magically appear for two float values. [1] http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=92475E44-19E0-4D07-A626-8C60A697216E%40rdfined.dk&forum_name=semediawiki-user -- =S Page > Harold Solbrig wrote: > > Dan, > > > > Why just integers? It would seem like it would be useful to be able to add provenance (who, when, where…) > information to any property – not just integers. President:=Johnson - 1965 or hasChild :: Sarah – 2003 > definedIn:=http://w3.org/sample/prelimVersion 2007-08-07 > > > > > > > > Harold Solbrig > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *From:* sem...@li... [mailto:sem...@li...] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Thomas > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:24 AM > > *To:* Sem...@li... > > *Subject:* [SMW-devel] dated integer type > > > > > > > > I have run across a concept called 'dated integer' that I propose become a native SMW data type. As the name > implies, one can associate a number with a year: > > > > population:=9,999 - 2005 or > > homeruns:=756 - 2007-08-07. > > > > Do others think this would be useful? > > > > -- > > -- > > Dan Thomas |
From: Jeff T. <je...@th...> - 2007-09-11 05:59:29
|
S Page wrote: > I just described SMW 1.0prealpha-3's support for N-ary properties in > response to [Semediawiki-user] Typed links vs. OWL-relations [1], the > same applies here. > > Property:Population_(on_date) would have [[Has type::Integer; Date]] > > The Berlin article would say [[Population (on date)::3405000; 2006-11| > 3,405,000 as of November 2006]] An exciting development. Thanks for the explanation. The N-ary property you describe here is different from the example on ontoworld: http://ontoworld.org/wiki/N-ary_relations It has something like: [[has temperature:: [[Temperature Observation:: [[temperature trend:=Falling]] [[temperature value:=Elevated]] ]] ]] I assume this is an earlier idea than the one being implemented? - Jeff |
From: Yaron K. <ya...@gm...> - 2007-09-11 05:37:57
|
Thanks, S, for finally detailing what n-ary relations will look like in SMW 1.0 - this was an issue of great curiosity to at least a few of us on the mailing list. That said (and I apologize if I'm now hijacking this thread) - are you sure that this is the best way to implement them? The other way, instead of composite types, is to keep using simple types, and define the relationship between a set of n-ary relations using semantic markup; you could call it the composite-property approach. It's the difference between saying "San Francisco has a property which is of type number+year", and "San Francisco has a property of type number, and a property of type year, which are joine= d together". I can think of a few arguments in favor of the latter approach: - most importantly, the "composite-type" approach doesn't allow you to define the specific property of each field. If a new property is composed of, say, three integers and two strings, how can anyone know what each of these fields actually is? And what will appear in the exported RDF for each value? - also, the latter allows for setting the display of the data at the same time that the values are set - with the former approach, it seems like you'= d always have to manually pipe on the text display, as you did in your example. - joined in with this, you can call the values in any order, instead of being required to always call them in the order they appear in the property definition. - speaking out of somewhat selfish reasons, the composite-type approach wil= l (I think) require a good amount of extra work for the Semantic Forms extension. SF will have to extract all the basic types out of each property to figure out what the inputs should look like. Also, the special forms to create properties and create templates will have to be overhauled, in a way that I don't think would be true if it were done through composite properties. (I could be wrong about this - maybe it would be easier than it seems.) Can you explain the reasoning that went into this decision? Is it that composite types allow for more structure in doing searches and the like? -Yaron On 9/11/07, S Page <in...@sk...> wrote: > > Jeff Thompson wrote: > > RDF has two ways to handle this. I don't think SMW supports either in = a > direct way. > > 1. Blank nodes. Instead of a property having a value of type integer, > it has a value > > of a composite type that has an integer, date, etc. Since it is a > "blank node" you > > don't need to create a unique URI for it (or its own page in > SMW). "Blank nodes" are > > used in RDF all the time, for example as the nodes in a list, or to > mention "the person > > that has email address geo...@gm..." without needing to give > that object its own > > unique identifier, and also to make "composite types" like the > date/integer you mention. > > 2. Reification. If your statement is "San Francisco has population > 739426", then you make > > a separate object of type Statement where the subject is "San > Francisco", the predicate is > > "has population" and the object is "739426". Then you can extend > this to say "this statement" > > is true on the date 2005. (Since the Statement object is usually a > blank node, it kind of > > amounts to the same as option 1.) > > > > The closest thing I see in in SWM is Type:Geographic coordinate which i= s > basically a blank node > > with a latitude and longitude property. Are there any plans in SMW to > support blank nodes, custom > > composite types, or reification? > > I just described SMW 1.0prealpha-3's support for N-ary properties in > response to [Semediawiki-user] Typed links vs. OWL-relations [1], the > same applies here. > > Property:Population_(on_date) would have [[Has type::Integer; Date]] > > The Berlin article would say [[Population (on date)::3405000; 2006-11| > 3,405,000 as of November 2006]] > > You can omit values, so you could have lots of optional values for a > property as Harold Solbrig suggested. Try it out, > http://ontoworld.org/wiki/N-ary_relations and > http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Berlin > > Maybe SMW's N-ary feature is your "blank node", I'm not sure of the > nomenclature. As I understand it "reification" is more for talking > about the statement (who made it, when they made it, where it appeared) > rather than facts within the statement (the date range over which it's > true, additional facts qualifying it). > > Your idea to make an underlying compound datatype for all properties > with the same set of values is nice; you could then say > Property:Population [[Has type::Dated_integer]]. But that's not how SMW > works currently. > > BTW, although Type:Geographic_coordinate seems like a compound type, it > still has to fit all its information into the generic smw_attributes > database table -- new columns don't magically appear for two float values= . > > [1] > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=3D92475E44-19E0-= 4D07-A626-8C60A697216E%40rdfined.dk&forum_name=3Dsemediawiki-user > > -- > =3DS Page > > > Harold Solbrig wrote: > > > Dan, > > > > > > Why just integers? It would seem like it would be useful to be able > to add provenance (who, when, where=85) > > information to any property =96 not just integers. President:=3DJohnso= n - > 1965 or hasChild :: Sarah =96 2003 > > definedIn:=3Dhttp://w3.org/sample/prelimVersion 2007-08-07 > > > > > > > > > > > > Harold Solbrig > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > *From:* sem...@li... [mailto: > sem...@li...] *On > > Behalf Of *Dan Thomas > > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:24 AM > > > *To:* Sem...@li... > > > *Subject:* [SMW-devel] dated integer type > > > > > > > > > > > > I have run across a concept called 'dated integer' that I propose > become a native SMW data type. As the name > > implies, one can associate a number with a year: > > > > > > population:=3D9,999 - 2005 or > > > homeruns:=3D756 - 2007-08-07. > > > > > > Do others think this would be useful? > > > > > > -- > > > -- > > > Dan Thomas > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel > |
From: S P. <in...@sk...> - 2007-09-29 10:04:57
|
I'm responding, but I don't have the answers. Jeff Thompson wrote: > What are the plans in Semantic Mediawiki to capture citations? I ask because, > for a "cited by" property, the subject is not the article, but a particular > assertion made within the article. > > For example the article for Germany: > http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Germany > says it has > [[area::357,050km²]] > > This might be followed by a citation link to the World Factbook, but the link is not > connected in a semantic way. N-ary relations in 1.0 pre-alpha let you create [[Property:Area]] with multiple types [[has type::Area; URI]] , and then you can say has area [[area::357,050km² ; https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html]] The second value is optional. I made Property:Area_test Try it, http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Sandbox#Area_with_citation This currently exports in RDF as:, <property:Area_test-23m-26sup2-3B-3B> <smw:nary1 rdf:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#float">357050000000</smw:nary1> <smw:nary2 rdf:datatype="">https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html</smw:nary2> </property:Area_test-23m-26sup2-3B-3B> The area type has units m², I think that's why they become an encoded part of the property name (#m²;). Within this property, you just have to know that the second value is a citation. If you don't like the display format then you could use a template that provides alternate text after '|'. There might be a way to tie into Mediawiki's reference support (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes) so that the citation appears in a footnote. I think <ref> information is structural rather than semantic. > You might add a property inside the assertion like this: > > [[area::357,050km² [[cited by::https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html]] ]] That won't work. Nor can you have the citation in the alternate display text after '|'. 1.0 seems to better support wiki formatting in the displayed text, but not a nested property. > If not this, then are there plans to formally capture citations? I don't know. People on this mailing list have discussed the limitations of n-ary relations as a collection of types rather than nested properties. Hope this helps, -- =S Page |
From: Dan B. <dan...@gm...> - 2007-09-29 11:52:14
|
On 29/09/2007, S Page <in...@sk...> wrote: > I'm responding, but I don't have the answers. > > Jeff Thompson wrote: > > What are the plans in Semantic Mediawiki to capture citations? I ask b= ecause, > > for a "cited by" property, the subject is not the article, but a partic= ular > > assertion made within the article. > > > > For example the article for Germany: > > http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Germany > > says it has > > [[area::357,050km=B2]] > > > > This might be followed by a citation link to the World Factbook, but th= e link is not > > connected in a semantic way. > > N-ary relations in 1.0 pre-alpha let you create [[Property:Area]] with > multiple types [[has type::Area; URI]] , and then you can say > has area [[area::357,050km=B2 ; > https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html]= ] > > The second value is optional. > > I made Property:Area_test Try it, > http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Sandbox#Area_with_citation > > This currently exports in RDF as:, > > <property:Area_test-23m-26sup2-3B-3B> > <smw:nary1 > rdf:datatype=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#float">357050000000</smw= :nary1> > <smw:nary2 > rdf:datatype=3D"">https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-fact= book/geos/gm.html</smw:nary2> > </property:Area_test-23m-26sup2-3B-3B> > > The area type has units m=B2, I think that's why they become an encoded > part of the property name (#m²;). Within this property, you just > have to know that the second value is a citation. > > If you don't like the display format then you could use a template that > provides alternate text after '|'. > > There might be a way to tie into Mediawiki's reference support > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes) so that the citation > appears in a footnote. I think <ref> information is structural rather > than semantic. Can you expand on this a bit? I am not sure what you mean. > > You might add a property inside the assertion like this: > > > > [[area::357,050km=B2 [[cited by::https://www.cia.gov/library/publicatio= ns/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html]] ]] > > That won't work. Nor can you have the citation in the alternate display > text after '|'. 1.0 seems to better support wiki formatting in the > displayed text, but not a nested property. > > > If not this, then are there plans to formally capture citations? > > I don't know. People on this mailing list have discussed the > limitations of n-ary relations as a collection of types rather than > nested properties. I would really like to see some 'proper' support for citations in MW (or SMW). I think the biggest current problem is that a citation is not an 'independent object', but is always found in ad-hoc associations with facts. I think the fact source (the citation) should exist in the wiki as a separate page (object) with several internal relations, such as 'is paper' and 'in journal' etc. etc. In this way a fact is linked to a citation object, possibly along with a comment describing the nature of the link. I am still learning about SMW stuff, so please slap me if the above looks d= umb. I am planning to integrate some 'deep' citation support here; http://introductome.org/ But for the time being its just an advert for wish-list functionality. Dan. > > Hope this helps, > -- > =3DS Page > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel > --=20 hello |
From: Markus <ma...@ai...> - 2007-09-29 19:22:02
|
As a general answer: we currently do not consider a feature for adding=20 citations to semantic facts, and I think it is not yet clear how this shoul= d=20 best be done in general. If some concrete plans for doing this emerge here,= =20 we could consider this after SMW1.0 (we will have to start gathering new=20 feature requests after the release anyway :-).=20 As S said, n-ary relations are currently the only (still experimental) way = of=20 binding multiple facts together in one annotation, but I don't think that=20 n-aries were really tailored for *this* use! So I would not really recommen= d=20 this unless you have some properties where the citation really is almost a= =20 fixed part of the annotation. See further comments below (also relating to Jeff's initial request). On Samstag, 29. September 2007, Dan Bolser wrote: <snip> > > I would really like to see some 'proper' support for citations in MW > (or SMW). I think the biggest current problem is that a citation is > not an 'independent object', but is always found in ad-hoc > associations with facts. I think the fact source (the citation) should > exist in the wiki as a separate page (object) with several internal > relations, such as 'is paper' and 'in journal' etc. etc. Good idea. See my homepage korrekt.org for how this can be used to make a=20 citation database with dynamic publication listings. An example of such a=20 list is http://korrekt.org/index.php/Publications_by_type. I will probably= =20 write some tutorial about this when I am done. It turns out that publicatio= ns=20 can have quite a number of properties, and formatting them with MW template= s=20 is some work too. I will also implement some bibtex conversion for MW when = I=20 find the time. > > In this way a fact is linked to a citation object, possibly along with > a comment describing the nature of the link. I am somewhat uncertain what a "fact" in general would be. I guess a lot of= =20 the citations in current wikis do not refer to single semantic facts, but t= o=20 more complex or informal statements. I also would like to know *why* one=20 would want to annotate semantic facts with sources. Do you want to take thi= s=20 into account for searching or browsing? I mean, having data available is=20 always nice, but which current functions of SMW would actually benefit from= =20 citations that are attached to semantic facts (note that SMW queries have n= o=20 explanation feature: they cannot currently tell you, which facts an answer= =20 was based on)? Cheers, Markus > > I am still learning about SMW stuff, so please slap me if the above looks > dumb. > > I am planning to integrate some 'deep' citation support here; > > http://introductome.org/ > > > But for the time being its just an advert for wish-list functionality. > > Dan. > > > Hope this helps, > > -- > > =3DS Page > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= =2D- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > > Sem...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel =2D-=20 Markus Kr=F6tzsch Institut AIFB, Univers=E4t Karlsruhe (TH), 76128 Karlsruhe phone +49 (0)721 608 7362 fax +49 (0)721 608 5998 ma...@ai... www http://korrekt.org |
From: Jeff T. <je...@th...> - 2007-10-03 01:12:55
|
Markus Krötzsch wrote: > As a general answer: we currently do not consider a feature for adding > citations to semantic facts, and I think it is not yet clear how this should > best be done in general. If some concrete plans for doing this emerge here, > we could consider this after SMW1.0 The best evidence for whether we need semantic citations will come when we see if Wikipedia authors really start using semantic markup. How soon after the SMW1.0 release will Wikipedia enable it? |
From: Markus <ma...@ai...> - 2007-10-04 09:35:01
|
On Mittwoch, 3. Oktober 2007, Jeff Thompson wrote: > Markus Kr=F6tzsch wrote: > > As a general answer: we currently do not consider a feature for adding > > citations to semantic facts, and I think it is not yet clear how this > > should best be done in general. If some concrete plans for doing this > > emerge here, we could consider this after SMW1.0 > > The best evidence for whether we need semantic citations will come when we > see if Wikipedia authors really start using semantic markup. How soon > after the SMW1.0 release will Wikipedia enable it? That's no question I can answer, but we are talking to several other large= =20 projects who plan to use 1.0. Further practical experiences with SMW are=20 important for Wikipedia. We actually do not push the issue at the moment,=20 since we have all our work-force concentrated on 1.0, and we would prefer t= o=20 provide decent support for the upgrade. =2D-=20 Markus Kr=F6tzsch Institut AIFB, Univers=E4t Karlsruhe (TH), 76128 Karlsruhe phone +49 (0)721 608 7362 fax +49 (0)721 608 5998 ma...@ai... www http://korrekt.org |