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From: Noel W. <noe...@ya...> - 2004-03-22 01:41:25
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A little while ago there was some discussion on plt-scheme about necessary starts to support commercial programming (IIRC Alex Peake was an active participant in this discussion). One of the things that came out of the discussion is the need for practical documentation along the lines of the Perl Cookbook. We've got a project at Schematics - the PLT Scheme Cookbook, http://schematics.sourceforge.net/cookbook/ - that attempts to address this but it isn't growing very rapidly. I think we can make a big contribution with the Cookbook but we need to change how it is written. At the moment you have to be a Schematics member and a bit of a WebIt! guru to contribute, so we're really limiting the pool of potential contributors. Python has a successful collaboratively developed Cookbook (http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Python/Cookbook/) and I think this is a model we can follow. Some ideas: - a Schematician could host a Moshi (or other wiki) install and we could use that - PLT might do the same - We could use wikibooks: http://wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page http://wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:Functional_programming:About There are the usual copyright/control issues. Additionally, it would be nice to have a clear path to a trade press book ala the Perl Cookbook. If PLT Scheme is ever going to attract a significant number of users documentation has to be available in the bookstores programmers visit (so HtDP, published by MIT Press, doesn't count as MIT Press doesn't even sell to most bookstores). O'Reilly have published the Python Cookbook so I don't think collaborative development is a big problem if we get the licence right. Thoughts? Noel PS: I've made some fixes to http://schematics.sourceforge.net/new/ ===== Email: noelwelsh <at> yahoo <dot> com Jabber: noelw <at> jabber <dot> org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html |
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From: MJ R. <mj...@ds...> - 2004-03-22 08:51:32
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Hi all, I'm not reading plt-scheme right now, because life is busy. Is there an easy URL to the relevant discussion that someone can give me, please? I think updating the Cookbook is an excellent idea, but I have been put off because of the need to learn things I don't know and something I won't use commercially (WebIt). I have that and one other thing which I will help with if wanted. Does this mean it is wanted? On 2004-03-22 01:41:19 +0000 Noel Welsh <noe...@ya...> wrote: > [...] (so HtDP, published by > MIT Press, doesn't count as MIT Press doesn't even > sell to most bookstores). MIT Press is stocked by the bookshops in my nearest city (Cambridge), but not in this town. Hardly a surprise, as "for Dummies" is about the level of computer book stocked here. If we get the book right, promotion via user groups is one good way to go. > O'Reilly have published the > Python Cookbook so I don't think collaborative > development is a big problem if we get the licence > right. Lisps are on the O'Reilly blacklist, so that's probably never going to happen. http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/author/writeforus_1101.html Let's use a sane licence and get it printed by as many people as possible. Provincially, could we workshop this at a London meeting? Do Schematicians have links with other similar groups? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ |
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From: Gordon W. <gwe...@od...> - 2004-03-22 17:59:43
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I think the cookbook is also a great idea, I have a hard time getting anything done in Python without a copy handy. Also agree on the O'Reilly thing, they seem to be interested only in things that are already commercially successful. Maybe Apress, or Addison-Wesley? I've done a few book reviews for A-W, so I've dealt with a few people there. I know a couple people who've published for Apress, they're getting a reputation for being the publisher O'Reilly used to be. And they've got 2 books on Common Lisp[1][2] in the pipeline. However, it makes a big difference if we have the material already written, or mostly written, publication is a lot simpler then. Denver has a users group for Lisp and Scheme, though the Lispers outnumber the Schemers pretty heavily. [1] http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=263 [2] http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=237 -- Gordon Weakliem http://www.eighty-twenty.net -----Original Message from MJ Ray <mj...@ds...>----- Hi all, I'm not reading plt-scheme right now, because life is busy. Is there an easy URL to the relevant discussion that someone can give me, please? I think updating the Cookbook is an excellent idea, but I have been put off because of the need to learn things I don't know and something I won't use commercially (WebIt). I have that and one other thing which I will help with if wanted. Does this mean it is wanted? On 2004-03-22 01:41:19 +0000 Noel Welsh <noe...@ya...> wrote: > [...] (so HtDP, published by > MIT Press, doesn't count as MIT Press doesn't even > sell to most bookstores). MIT Press is stocked by the bookshops in my nearest city (Cambridge), but not in this town. Hardly a surprise, as "for Dummies" is about the level of computer book stocked here. If we get the book right, promotion via user groups is one good way to go. > O'Reilly have published the > Python Cookbook so I don't think collaborative > development is a big problem if we get the licence > right. Lisps are on the O'Reilly blacklist, so that's probably never going to happen. http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/author/writeforus_1101.html Let's use a sane licence and get it printed by as many people as possible. Provincially, could we workshop this at a London meeting? Do Schematicians have links with other similar groups? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click _______________________________________________ Schematics-development mailing list Sch...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/schematics-development |
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From: MJ R. <mj...@ds...> - 2004-03-25 10:09:11
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On 2004-03-22 18:09:08 +0000 Gordon Weakliem <gwe...@od...> wrote: > I think the cookbook is also a great idea [...] OK, so what shall we do about it? Here are my ideas/questions: 1. Replace the licence. I won't write anything major under FDL. The rest of Schematics uses mod' BSD, doesn't it? 2. What are the "Using PLT Scheme" sections for? They are nearly all empty. 3. Web Programming I can add a lot to. I also probably should clean my cgilib and publish it. Stuff like XchemeRPC and SSAX would be good to describe too. 4. Where in CVS is the source? What do I need? 5. Database programming is the obvious omission. I guess the DB API needs work yet. I'm using it heavily, so I know it works pretty well, but I'm being selfish and not publishing. That is wrong. > -----Original Message from MJ Ray <mj...@ds...>----- Please trim your quotes and reply below. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ |
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From: Gordon W. <gwe...@od...> - 2004-03-25 19:29:17
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Schematics is LGPL, at least according to the SF project pages. I don't much care about the license, myself. I agree with your list, a section on GUI programming would be good. The strings chapter could use a ton of work, I like using SRFI 13 & 14, but there's a number of useful string manipulations that aren't included, and this is perfect fodder for a cookbook, little chunks of code that people can lift wholesale. -- Gordon Weakliem http://www.eighty-twenty.net -----Original Message from MJ Ray <mj...@ds...>----- On 2004-03-22 18:09:08 +0000 Gordon Weakliem <gwe...@od...> wrote: > I think the cookbook is also a great idea [...] OK, so what shall we do about it? Here are my ideas/questions: 1. Replace the licence. I won't write anything major under FDL. The rest of Schematics uses mod' BSD, doesn't it? 2. What are the "Using PLT Scheme" sections for? They are nearly all empty. 3. Web Programming I can add a lot to. I also probably should clean my cgilib and publish it. Stuff like XchemeRPC and SSAX would be good to describe too. 4. Where in CVS is the source? What do I need? 5. Database programming is the obvious omission. I guess the DB API needs work yet. I'm using it heavily, so I know it works pretty well, but I'm being selfish and not publishing. That is wrong. > -----Original Message from MJ Ray <mj...@ds...>----- Please trim your quotes and reply below. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click _______________________________________________ Schematics-development mailing list Sch...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/schematics-development |
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From: MJ R. <mj...@ds...> - 2004-03-25 23:47:26
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On 2004-03-25 19:38:52 +0000 Gordon Weakliem <gwe...@od...> wrote: > Schematics is LGPL, at least according to the SF project pages. I > don't much > care about the license, myself. I'd be happy with LGPL. As it stands, it's hopeless: there seems to be nothing in the book itself stating who claims copyright and the FDL is not properly applied. bfulgham, uid20422, noel: are you happy to LGPL? > like using SRFI 13 & 14, but there's a number of useful string > manipulations > that aren't included, and this is perfect fodder for a cookbook [...] I'd like that. I can probably add some pregexp recipes too, but I tend to use that when I'm sure I could use other tools more effectively. Please trim your quotes and reply below. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ |
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From: Brent F. <bfu...@de...> - 2004-03-30 06:10:41
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On 2004-03-25 15:51:13 -0800 MJ Ray <mj...@ds...> wrote: > On 2004-03-25 19:38:52 +0000 Gordon Weakliem <gwe...@od...> > wrote: > >> Schematics is LGPL, at least according to the SF project pages. I >> don't >> much care about the license, myself. > > I'd be happy with LGPL. As it stands, it's hopeless: there seems to > be > nothing in the book itself stating who claims copyright and the FDL > is not > properly applied. > > bfulgham, uid20422, noel: are you happy to LGPL? > Yes, that is fine with me. -Brent |
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From: Noel W. <noe...@ya...> - 2004-03-26 00:59:41
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Most software on Schematics is LGPL and I'm happy to go with that. I had a look at APress's site and they seem ok with publishing work under that licence. > 2. What are the "Using PLT Scheme" sections for? Mainly to explain the important differences between PLT Scheme and r5rs Scheme. E.g. the use of square brackets for visual emphasis. > 4. Where in CVS is the source? What do I need? /doc/cookbook ; WebIt! To me the main issue is how the cookbook is developed. Currently you edit the Scheme source in CVS. I'm suggesting a more open process that 1) allows more people to participate and 2) reduces the time taken to make an addition. I'm suggesting a wiki, either hosted by some kind soul (possibly PLT) or at wikibooks. Other possibilities include maintaining the current system or going to a blog style (users can only post comments not change the original text) as used by the ActiveState online cookbooks. My preference is for wiki style. Wikibooks uses the FDL. Another issue is the scope of the cookbook. It is currently PLT specific. People might appreciate a more general cookbook that covers all Schemes. I'm unsure about this...I'd probably leave it open for those who want to contribute but I'm not likely to do any work on this, except perhaps for some SISC recipes. I've expended a few cycles on the structure of the book, and I'm currently thinking: 1. Intro to (PLT) Scheme Maybe just a link to "fixnum" and notes on where PLT differs 2. Scheme Programming Style Monadic style, pattern matching, modules and units etc. I think this is important as most people don't appreciate how stylish Scheme differs from mainstream PLs. 3. Cookbook Recipes for solving common problems. We should cover at least: lists strings time files net: tcp/ip, http web: PLT's xml library, SSAX, WebIt!, SXPath, servlets, cgi db N. ===== Email: noelwelsh <at> yahoo <dot> com Jabber: noelw <at> jabber <dot> org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html |
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From: Gordon W. <gwe...@od...> - 2004-03-26 02:43:17
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I was actually just going to propose using a wiki. I believe that I have enough room in my hosting plan to host a wiki for this purpose. If moshimoshi could run under Apache, that would be ideal, or I could set up MoinMoin. -- Gordon Weakliem http://www.eighty-twenty.net -----Original Message from Noel Welsh <noe...@ya...>----- Most software on Schematics is LGPL and I'm happy to go with that. I had a look at APress's site and they seem ok with publishing work under that licence. > 2. What are the "Using PLT Scheme" sections for? Mainly to explain the important differences between PLT Scheme and r5rs Scheme. E.g. the use of square brackets for visual emphasis. > 4. Where in CVS is the source? What do I need? /doc/cookbook ; WebIt! To me the main issue is how the cookbook is developed. Currently you edit the Scheme source in CVS. I'm suggesting a more open process that 1) allows more people to participate and 2) reduces the time taken to make an addition. I'm suggesting a wiki, either hosted by some kind soul (possibly PLT) or at wikibooks. Other possibilities include maintaining the current system or going to a blog style (users can only post comments not change the original text) as used by the ActiveState online cookbooks. My preference is for wiki style. Wikibooks uses the FDL. Another issue is the scope of the cookbook. It is currently PLT specific. People might appreciate a more general cookbook that covers all Schemes. I'm unsure about this...I'd probably leave it open for those who want to contribute but I'm not likely to do any work on this, except perhaps for some SISC recipes. I've expended a few cycles on the structure of the book, and I'm currently thinking: 1. Intro to (PLT) Scheme Maybe just a link to "fixnum" and notes on where PLT differs 2. Scheme Programming Style Monadic style, pattern matching, modules and units etc. I think this is important as most people don't appreciate how stylish Scheme differs from mainstream PLs. 3. Cookbook Recipes for solving common problems. We should cover at least: lists strings time files net: tcp/ip, http web: PLT's xml library, SSAX, WebIt!, SXPath, servlets, cgi db N. ===== Email: noelwelsh <at> yahoo <dot> com Jabber: noelw <at> jabber <dot> org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click _______________________________________________ Schematics-development mailing list Sch...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/schematics-development |
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From: Noel W. <noe...@ya...> - 2004-03-26 08:44:47
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--- Gordon Weakliem <gwe...@od...> wrote: > If moshimoshi could run under Apache, that would be > ideal, or I could set up MoinMoin. Moshi doesn't currently run under Apache. It could be modified to do so but that would be substantial work. I'll ask the PLT folk if they'll host it. We discussed something similar in the past but never quite finalised everything. Noel ===== Email: noelwelsh <at> yahoo <dot> com Jabber: noelw <at> jabber <dot> org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html |
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From: Anton v. S. <an...@ap...> - 2004-03-26 20:27:43
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Noel Welsh wrote: > Moshi doesn't currently run under Apache. It could be > modified to do so but that would be substantial work. > I'll ask the PLT folk if they'll host it. We > discussed something similar in the past but never > quite finalised everything. I'm willing to host Moshi for this purpose on one of my servers. Since it already runs Apache, Moshi might have to use a port other than 80, although I may be able to get around that using a DNS alias - I'll look into that. I also already have the Twiki wiki set up on the server in question: http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome That's the default, uncustomized interface, don't let it put you off - it can be customized to our heart's content, it's just HTML, stylesheets and/or wiki content using wiki shorthand. Twiki is a revision-controlled wiki, so changes can be monitored, rolled back, etc. There's user security so that only users with accounts can edit, which also means that changes are associated with the person that made them. Despite my desire to eat our own dog food and use Moshi, I think revision control is pretty important for a shared project like this. There's also a lot of other functionality in Twiki. For more, see: http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/TWiki/WelcomeGuest ...which has links to other intro and reference material. I should warn anyone of delicate constitution that the implementation language for Twiki is Perl. That shouldn't affect users, though. I have no problem hosting Moshi as well, though. I have no idea whether Twiki is appropriate for collective book authoring, i.e. I'm not sure if other wikis have better features for this purpose, it's not something I've ever looked at. I don't want to jump the gun and create a Twiki area for Schematics unless others like the idea: let me know if I should do that. Twiki is organized into named "webs", so we could name a web 'Cookbook', unless we want to go for the more general 'Schematics', or both (with the latter being for non-cookbook material). BTW, longer term, perhaps a good idea would be for schematics to have its own domain name. If I host this, I can give it a name in one of my domains, like schematics.appsolutions.com etc., but to support server portability in future, having its own name might make sense. Unfortunately I see that schematics.org and .net is taken, not surprisingly. I haven't searched for any others. Anton |
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From: <jen...@so...> - 2004-03-27 08:35:13
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Anton van Straaten wrote: > Noel Welsh wrote: >>Moshi doesn't currently run under Apache. It could be >>modified to do so but that would be substantial work. >>I'll ask the PLT folk if they'll host it. We >>discussed something similar in the past but never >>quite finalised everything. > I'm willing to host Moshi for this purpose on one of my servers. Since= it > already runs Apache, Moshi might have to use a port other than 80, alth= ough > I may be able to get around that using a DNS alias - I'll look into tha= t. This how I got scheme.dk to run at a site with Apace: <http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2003-September/003568.html= > Apache "forwards" all requests to the PLT server in a non-user-visible wa= y. --=20 Jens Axel S=F8gaard |
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From: Anton v. S. <an...@ap...> - 2004-03-27 09:51:54
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Jens Axel Søgaard wrote: > Anton van Straaten wrote: > > Noel Welsh wrote: > > >>Moshi doesn't currently run under Apache. It could be > >>modified to do so but that would be substantial work. > >>I'll ask the PLT folk if they'll host it. We > >>discussed something similar in the past but never > >>quite finalised everything. > > > I'm willing to host Moshi for this purpose on one of my > > servers. Since it already runs Apache, Moshi might have > > to use a port other than 80, although I may be able to > > get around that using a DNS alias - I'll look into that. > > This how I got scheme.dk to run at a site with Apace: > > <http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2003-September/003568.html> > > Apache "forwards" all requests to the PLT server in a > non-user-visible way. Thanks, that's just the sort of thing I was hoping could be done - but I was going to have dig for details. I'd need to change the rewrite rule to forward requests selectively, since this Apache is also running other things, but that shouldn't be a problem. Anton |
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From: Anton v. S. <an...@ap...> - 2004-03-27 10:03:20
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> > Apache "forwards" all requests to the PLT server in a > > non-user-visible way. > > Thanks, that's just the sort of thing I was hoping could be done > - but I was going to have dig for details. I'd need to change > the rewrite rule to forward requests selectively, since this > Apache is also running other things, but that shouldn't be a > problem. I realized that the web page was presumably referring to a per-directory configuration, so of course is already selective in that it only forwards requests for that directory. I was thinking in terms of the global Apache config, since what I'd probably do is set up a virtual server to correspond to moshi and put the rewrite instruction there. Anton |
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From: Noel W. <noe...@ya...> - 2004-03-29 14:40:38
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--- Anton van Straaten <an...@ap...> wrote: Thanks for offering to host this. The PLT folk have indicated they are able but have some hoops to jump through (i.e. appeasing their sys admins). > Despite my desire to eat our own dog food and use > Moshi, I think revision control is pretty important > for a shared project like this. There's also a lot > of other functionality in Twiki. It's a tough call. I agree TWiki has much useful functionality. This could be added to Moshi, some of it fairly easily, but I'm not sure the effort in reinventing the wheel is worth it. Hmmmm...I'm inclined to go with TWiki, as I don't think I'll get around to adding all the useful stuff to Moshi in the near future and it doesn't seem that anyone will do so either. Any thoughts from others? > I have no idea whether Twiki is appropriate for > collective book authoring, It seems appropriate enough. The only problem I envisage (and the area where Moshi is nice) is formatting Scheme code. > I don't want to jump the gun and create a Twiki area > for Schematics unless others like the idea... Twiki > is organized into named "webs", so we could name a > web 'Cookbook', unless we want to go for the more > general 'Schematics', or both (with the latter being > for non-cookbook material). I vote going with the TWiki (and I think Cookbook is appropriate) unless someone pitches in to help with Moshi. > BTW, longer term, perhaps a good idea would be for > schematics to have its own domain name. Agreed. > Unfortunately I see that schematics.org and .net is > taken Yeah. Its especially annoying as neither are used. schematics.org actually expires 23-May-2004 10:15:32 UTC. I don't know if its worth contacting the owner (webmaster@Epsilon.net) to see if they'll consider not renewing it when it expires. schemoids.{net, org, com} is still available :-/ Noel ===== Email: noelwelsh <at> yahoo <dot> com Jabber: noelw <at> jabber <dot> org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html |
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From: Anton v. S. <an...@ap...> - 2004-03-29 20:57:04
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Noel Welsh wrote: > It's a tough call. I agree TWiki has much useful > functionality. This could be added to Moshi, some of > it fairly easily, but I'm not sure the effort in > reinventing the wheel is worth it. Hmmmm...I'm > inclined to go with TWiki, as I don't think I'll get > around to adding all the useful stuff to Moshi in the > near future and it doesn't seem that anyone will do so > either. Any thoughts from others? I should add that I don't have a problem installing some other wiki or content-management software, as long as it's not incredibly complex to maintain. TWiki is the only wiki I'm familiar with that has revision control - I'm sure there are others, but I don't know anything about them. Clients of mine use Twiki and it works well. > > I have no idea whether Twiki is appropriate for > > collective book authoring, > > It seems appropriate enough. The only problem I > envisage (and the area where Moshi is nice) is > formatting Scheme code. The Twiki architecture is pretty open, and it supports plugins. Lots of them exist already: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/PluginPackage There are already some plugins which handle code formatting, like BeautifierPlugin. It's possible to run external code (like Scheme). I imagine it shouldn't be difficult to do something for Scheme code formatting. We may be able to reuse some of Moshi's code, and it should also be possible to do some integration with WebIt!, if that makes sense. > I vote going with the TWiki (and I think Cookbook is > appropriate) unless someone pitches in to help with > Moshi. As a test, I've set up a Cookbook web at: http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/Cookbook/WebHome If we're going to use this permanently, I'll set up a friendlier URL for it. To pretty up the default Twiki interface, I've installed a skin called VoidSkin and done some minor Schematics-specific customization. For anyone who wants to try it out, to create & edit pages on the site, you can register yourself at: http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/TWiki/TWikiRegistration Pick a wikiname (e.g. mine is AntonVanStraaten) to identify yourself. Note that the name needs mixed case internally to be recognized as a wikiname - in particular, a name like, say, MJRay wouldn't work (sorry!) because the capitals are all in the front. If you've never used Twiki before, check out the following: http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/TWiki/WelcomeGuest http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/TWiki/TWikiTutorial http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/TWiki/WikiSyntax Once you've registered, an important customization for usability purposes is to change the size of the default text edit box which you're given when you edit a page. Go to the page for your own name, edit it, and change the text box width and height to whatever you want. If you're already familiar with Twiki, the VoidSkin gives it a somewhat different feel. It seems nice enough to me, but I'm open to any suggestions. > > Unfortunately I see that schematics.org and .net is > > taken > > Yeah. Its especially annoying as neither are used. > schematics.org actually expires 23-May-2004 10:15:32 > UTC. I don't know if its worth contacting the owner > (webmaster@Epsilon.net) to see if they'll consider not > renewing it when it expires. schemoids.{net, org, > com} is still available :-/ If it's someone squatting and trying to sell the domain, I assume they won't give it up for free. Maybe it's better to wait and see whether it becomes available? I don't know what's best. Anton |
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From: MJ R. <mj...@ds...> - 2004-03-30 08:40:18
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On 2004-03-29 21:56:53 +0100 Anton van Straaten <an...@ap...> wrote: > As a test, I've set up a Cookbook web at: > http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/Cookbook/WebHome Is it possible to mix traditional Revision Controlled pages with a wiki? > For anyone who wants to try it out, to create & edit pages on the > site, you > can register yourself at: > http://shizuku.appsolutions.com/twiki/bin/view/TWiki/TWikiRegistration Will any casual contributors bother to create accounts? > in particular, a name like, say, MJRay wouldn't work [...] Can we use the []s to subvert that? By the way, no text colour is set on that wiki, giving it grey on white here. Can that be fixed? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ |
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From: Noel W. <noe...@ya...> - 2004-03-30 15:56:57
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--- MJ Ray <mj...@ds...> wrote: > Is it possible to mix traditional Revision > Controlled pages with a wiki? I'm not sure what you mean by this. TWiki clearly does. It doesn't impact WikiCulture, if that is what you're getting at. > Will any casual contributors bother to create > accounts? Good question. I think in this context it will be ok. Generally Scheme people don't want to hide behind anonymity in my experience. Noel ===== Email: noelwelsh <at> yahoo <dot> com Jabber: noelw <at> jabber <dot> org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html |
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From: MJ R. <mj...@ds...> - 2004-03-30 23:50:48
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On 2004-03-30 16:56:48 +0100 Noel Welsh <noe...@ya...> wrote: > --- MJ Ray <mj...@ds...> wrote: >> Is it possible to mix traditional Revision >> Controlled pages with a wiki? > I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm referring to the alternative idea of having a schematics-maintained book with wiki annotations. >> Will any casual contributors bother to create >> accounts? > Good question. I think in this context it will be ok. > Generally Scheme people don't want to hide behind > anonymity in my experience. That wasn't really my question: many people have "login fatigue" and don't bother if a site asks them to log in, or try cypherpunks logins and leave if they fail. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ |
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From: Anton v. S. <an...@ap...> - 2004-03-31 18:52:44
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MJ Ray wrote: > >> Is it possible to mix traditional Revision > >> Controlled pages with a wiki? > > I'm not sure what you mean by this. > > I'm referring to the alternative idea of having a > schematics-maintained book with wiki annotations. By schematics-maintained, you mean in CVS? The problem with that would be mixing access techniques. If wiki-annotated content was stored in CVS like any other file, then it should be easy enough to set up wiki software to provide a formatted view of that content. However, if you used wiki software on the central repository to actually edit the files, you'd immediately run into a conflict with the version control - unless you had a wiki that integrates with CVS (are there any?) The easiest way to be safe in this situation, would be to disable editing of pages via the wiki. If one of the goals is to make editing more accessible, this isn't good. I would think the need to use CVS would be at least as much of a barrier to casual contributors, as having to create an account. (And it looks like we're going to be eliminating the need for accounts.) I suppose something could be set up to try and do a CVS commit behind the scenes if someone edits a page via the wiki, but then you'd need to handle conflicts. I did look into the question of Twiki & CVS a bit. There's lots of material about this on the twiki site, e.g.: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GetRidOfRcs http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiWithCVS http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Support/AdviceForCVSingLocalTWikiInstallation ...however, the upshot is there's no good off-the-shelf solution because of the way Twiki uses RCS. The best bet would be to use a good front end for RCS that supports access to remote files (e.g. via http, ftp, or ssh/scp). Ironically, CVS would be such a program, but it imposes a repository structure which Twiki doesn't conform to. Anton |
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From: MJ R. <mj...@ds...> - 2004-04-05 11:22:50
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On 2004-03-31 19:52:45 +0100 Anton van Straaten <an...@ap...> wrote: > MJ Ray wrote: >> I'm referring to the alternative idea of having a >> schematics-maintained book with wiki annotations. > > By schematics-maintained, you mean in CVS? I don't care. By schematics-maintained I mean "this bit schematicians can edit/review (so should be mostly correct), but anyone can add annotations as they wish." Similar things seem to be done with Postgres and PHP manuals, for example. I don't care much about the method. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ |
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From: Noel W. <noe...@ya...> - 2004-04-05 14:51:06
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--- MJ Ray <mj...@ds...> wrote: > I don't care. By schematics-maintained I mean "this > bit schematicians > can edit/review (so should be mostly correct), but > anyone can add > annotations as they wish." This restricts the number of people who can contribute to the cookbook. It seems like a retrograde step, given we're moving to a wiki is to get more contributors. I should incorrect entries will be quickly fixed and versioning protects us from attacks. N. ===== Email: noelwelsh <at> yahoo <dot> com Jabber: noelw <at> jabber <dot> org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ |
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From: MJ R. <mj...@ds...> - 2004-04-05 17:55:27
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On 2004-04-05 15:51:00 +0100 Noel Welsh <noe...@ya...> wrote: > --- MJ Ray <mj...@ds...> wrote: >> I don't care. By schematics-maintained I mean "this >> bit schematicians can edit/review (so should be mostly correct), but >> anyone can add annotations as they wish." > This restricts the number of people who can contribute > to the cookbook. [...] ITYM "edit" not "contribute". I'm not sure that restricting the number of editors is undesirable for a programming cookbook. Will incorrect entries be quickly fixed? The poster-children of wikidom like wikipedia and Portland Patterns get fixed quickly, but my experience is that other sites require constant attention from their original sponsors. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ |
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From: Anton v. S. <an...@ap...> - 2004-04-05 18:37:23
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MJ Ray wrote: > On 2004-04-05 15:51:00 +0100 Noel Welsh <noe...@ya...> wrote: > > > --- MJ Ray <mj...@ds...> wrote: > >> I don't care. By schematics-maintained I mean "this > >> bit schematicians can edit/review (so should be mostly correct), but > >> anyone can add annotations as they wish." > > This restricts the number of people who can contribute > > to the cookbook. [...] > > ITYM "edit" not "contribute". I'm not sure that restricting the number > of editors is undesirable for a programming cookbook. > > Will incorrect entries be quickly fixed? The poster-children of > wikidom like wikipedia and Portland Patterns get fixed quickly, but my > experience is that other sites require constant attention from their > original sponsors. That's a good point. But won't this mean that it becomes up to the editors to integrate new material, so instead of working to "police" contributions that don't fit, some work will have to be done for many or most contributions, even good ones, to make the cookbook hold together rather than be a ragtag collection of random contributions? I've seen sites with such random collections, and they're not that useful because there may be ten solutions to a given problem, and most or all of them might suck. Someone has to do editing work to correct that. If the original contributors are responsible and sensible, they can do at least some of that work. It comes down to how much you trust the contributors. We have no way to assess that for sure right now, but the small size and quality of the Scheme community seems to argue that we can expect reasonably responsible contributors. Afaict, the Scheme community is nowhere near comparable in size to that of the major wikis, or Postgres, PHP, Python, Perl, or even Common Lisp. Since we do have a versioning capability, and very little content right now to protect, it seems to me that the easiest and most obvious thing is just to set some guidelines, and open it up. If we start having problems with too many contributors doing things we don't like, I think we'll be able to consider that quite an achievement. I'm guessing it won't happen for quite while, and we can deal with it when it does. Anton |
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From: MJ R. <mj...@ds...> - 2004-04-07 17:40:09
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On 2004-04-05 19:37:46 +0100 Anton van Straaten <an...@ap...> wrote: > That's a good point. But won't this mean that it becomes up to the > editors > to integrate new material, so instead of working to "police" > contributions > that don't fit, some work will have to be done for many or most > contributions, even good ones, to make the cookbook hold together > rather > than be a ragtag collection of random contributions? Probably, but someone needs to tend a pure wiki to do that anyway. If this is a wiki with "schematics" on it, they ought to become a schematician if they will do much editing, surely? > I've seen sites with such random collections, and they're not that > useful > because there may be ten solutions to a given problem, and most or > all of > them might suck. Someone has to do editing work to correct that. If > the > original contributors are responsible and sensible, they can do at > least > some of that work. I think you missed "with sufficient time" from the list of requirements for contributors. Regardless, wiki-ness doesn't prevent "someone has to do editing work to correct that" if you get ten partial solutions. Wiki-ness also introduces the possibility that the non-sucky solutions will be edited to suck and someone has to edit them again, too. > It comes down to how much you trust the contributors. [...] I disagree. I think I do not distrust the contributors more than you. Rather, I believe the pure wiki is requiring more effort from both contributors and editors than an annotation-based system. The requirement was to make this thing easier and I don't think a pure wiki solution will. My experience with other open project wikis (the local LUG, Oekonux, GNUstep, Koha, Gobo, amongst others) suggests they require active maintenance and will be subject to attacks. Even if all contributors are friendly, there will be script-based attacks on it. Please consider this experience even if you don't agree with my interpretation if the time demands. I don't understand the plan for making stable releases of a pure-wiki cookbook. Are we deferring work for later? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ sl...@ja... Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ |
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