I'm new to rEFInd, looking for a Boot Manager that can handle multiboot of various systems, and missing some info on your Manual pages. Would you care to give some feedback:
What are in your view primary advantages of using rEFInd compare to other popular boot managers?
Is rEFInd most suitable as better replacement to Grub or Grub2, or be equal choice to it, or serve as an add-on to Grub with extra features?
Can rEFInd boot OS from floppy, hard disk and DVD images like ISO, IMA, VHD, VMDK, RAW? Or its in the future plans?
Most folks use Windows as primary OS. How to install rEFInd as an option shown and startable from Windows Bootmgr Menu List, similar to Grub4DOS, instead of being installed as Primary BM?
Is it possible to call rEFInd from Grub4DOS Menu, and vice-versa?
It looks like rEFInd can also boot legacy OS from MBR-based drives. Given this, can rEFInd be used to boot any OS on a PC with BIOS-based MoBO without UEFI support, if a user manually adds FAT32 ESP-volume to the system GPT- or MBR-based HDD, and than adds required by a given OS *.efi files to it?
I'm just looking for ways to use rEFInd also on a BIOS-based PC, and in a more universal fashion, including booting OS from images. I also want to make an educated choice btw Boot Managers, and need some rEFInd comparative advantages list. Sure, most folks not yet familiar with rEFInd would need that too. :)
Last edit: sam bul 2014-08-10
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Note that this page is dedicated to EFI boot loaders. There's little point in doing a direct comparison to BIOS boot loaders, since the two are entirely different categories.
Is rEFInd most suitable as better replacement to Grub or Grub2, or be equal choice to it, or serve as an add-on to Grub with extra features?
It can be used with or without GRUB, although for the average user, there's very little point to using both GRUB and rEFInd.
Can rEFInd boot OS from floppy, hard disk and DVD images like ISO, IMA, VHD, VMDK, RAW? Or its in the future plans?
This is not currently possible. This feature would require an EFI loopback driver. Writing such a driver is on my to-do list, but I have no estimate of when (or even if) I might do it.
Most folks use Windows as primary OS. How to install rEFInd as an option shown and startable from Windows Bootmgr Menu List, similar to Grub4DOS, instead of being installed as Primary BM?
The Windows boot manager can supposedly chainload to another EFI boot manager/loader, but I have yet to see a good explanation of how to set this up. (There are lots of sites that describe setting up the equivalent in BIOS mode, but those instructions are useless for EFI-mode installations.)
That said, I don't see what the advantage would be of doing it that way. You can set rEFInd to boot Windows by default, and even set options to reduce the timeout value and hide the menu so that you'd be completely unaware that rEFInd was involved, except when you hold a key to activate the rEFInd menu.
Is it possible to call rEFInd from Grub4DOS Menu, and vice-versa?
GRUB4DOS is a BIOS boot loader. As such, it cannot launch rEFInd. (A partial exception: You could set up GRUB4DOS to launch DUET, which could then launch rEFInd. This would not work on all computers, though, and it's needlessly complex.)
rEFInd can launch GRUB4DOS, or any other BIOS-mode boot loader, provided the EFI includes a Compatibility Support Module (CSM), which is essentially a BIOS emulator. You'd need to be sure that you've activated BIOS support via the scanfor option in refind.conf, and install the boot loader you want in the usual way. Note that in some cases you'll need a separate hard disk, since not all BIOS boot loaders work on GPT disks; or you'd need to install rEFInd on an MBR disk (which is very unusual for EFI-based computers). In most cases there's little or no advantage in setting up both BIOS- and EFI-mode boot loaders on one computer. Macs that dual-boot with Windows are the major case where it does make sense to do this. For most others, it's much simpler and more reliable to stick to one boot mode -- EFI-only of BIOS-only.
It looks like rEFInd can also boot legacy OS from MBR-based drives. Given this, can rEFInd be used to boot any OS on a PC with BIOS-based MoBO without UEFI support, if a user manually adds FAT32 ESP-volume to the system GPT- or MBR-based HDD, and than adds required by a given OS *.efi files to it?
Because rEFInd is an EFI-based boot loader, it requires EFI support to work. This means that it will not work on a BIOS-based motherboard. There is an exception that I've already mentioned, though: You can run it from DUET (or the similar Clover). These tools don't work on every computer, though, and they're a pain to set up. Furthermore, the last I checked, neither DUET nor Clover can boot BIOS-based OSes, so rEFInd itself would only boot EFI-mode OSes in such a setup; you'd need another BIOS-mode boot loader to launch your BIOS-mode OSes.
I'm just looking for ways to use rEFInd also on a BIOS-based PC, and in a more universal fashion, including booting OS from images.
rEFInd is not a good choice on a BIOS-based PC, since the only way to run it on such a computer is via DUET or Clover, and they're difficult to set up. You're much better off sticking to a traditional BIOS-mode boot loader, like GRUB.
That said, it's conceivable that your computer actually is EFI-based and you don't realize it. The EFI floodgates opened in mid-2011; most computers released after that point were EFI-based, as were a handful sold before then. During the Windows 7 era, most PCs were sold configured to boot in BIOS mode, even when they shipped with EFIs, so some people have EFI-based computers that boot Windows 7 in BIOS mode.
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I still want to ask a few more questions if you don't mind... :)
rEFInd can launch GRUB4DOS, or any other BIOS-mode boot loader, provided the EFI includes a Compatibility Support Module (CSM), which is essentially a BIOS emulator.
Did you mean that rEFInd's own EFI module must contain CSM (does it?), or my PC's BIOS must include CSM, or both?
In most cases there's little or no advantage in setting up both BIOS- and EFI-mode boot loaders on one computer.
Adding Grub4DOS to rEFInd boot menu seems to offer a huge advantage of booting non-EFI OS install from MBR- or GPT-based disk images, in particular VHD, ISO, IMA, etc., and such portable images are now getting a lot more popular and practical in multiboot setup than adding each OS to a separate HDD partition.
it's conceivable that your computer actually is EFI-based
My current large PC is BIOS based. I wanted to try Xen in multiboot setup with Windows, and Xen can be booted using xen.efi module. Thats why I wonder if rEFInd can boot Xen if I add Fat32 system partition, and install rEFInd to it. You mentioned, it can start via DUET or Clover. Will look into this, I assume either one can be started from Grub4DOS? Or can you suggest a different approach to multibooting Xen with Windows - possibly only Clover, no rEFInd use?
You can run it from DUET (or the similar Clover)
How exactly would you suggest to install Clover from Windows as a 2nd bootloader? I know, its a question for Clover devs, but they don't know, probably only used it on Macs. I can setup a new small Fat32 System Volume with EFI folder on my system HDD, if it can help. I've Grub4DOS already installed as 2nd bootloader on the BIOS-based PC, its accessible from Windows Boot Menu. But I'd prefer to launch Clover directly from Windows Boot Menu by Bootmgr if possible. If not, how exactly would you suggest to add Clover to the disk and Grub4DOS menu?
Last edit: sam bul 2014-08-11
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You misunderstand rEFInd's nature. rEFInd is an EFI program, in the sense that Konqueror is a Linux program or Microsoft Word is a Windows program -- that is, rEFInd runs under EFI. rEFInd is not an EFI implementation itself. There is no "EFI module" in rEFInd. rEFInd's ability to launch a BIOS-mode boot loader depends on the capabilities of the EFI under which rEFInd runs.
Both DUET and Clover are limited, difficult to set up, delicate to maintain. The former requires using some fairly arcane tools for installation, while the latter depends upon OS X to do the basic installation. I've already linked to my page on DUET, and I have no specific suggestions about Clover, and especially not about installing it from Windows. I don't know of anybody who's launched DUET directly from GRUB4DOS. It may well be possible, but I've not heard anything about it, so I simply cannot answer your questions on that score. If you try it, you'll be blazing your own trail. Note that anything you learn will be short-lived, since BIOS is going the way of the dodo; AFAIK, BIOS is no longer being used on any current-production computer (unless you count an EFI's CSM as a BIOS embedded within an EFI).
If your computer is truly BIOS-based, I'm afraid that rEFInd simply is not a good option unless you're desperate (say, if you must boot Windows from an over-2TiB disk) or if you're into experimenting with low-level boot options.
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While rEFInd is apparently not an EFI FW implementation in software, Clover seems to be...
I found, how to add Clover PBR to PBR-sector of a small HDD partition and launch Clover via Grub4DOS on a BIOS-based Windows PC. It requires adding a small 100Mb Fat32 EFI partition to your HDD, where clover folder is then copied. In turn, Clover in such setup allows to launch *.efi modules of various OSs on a BIOS-based PC. :)
Yes, I realize, currently made PCs all support EFI, but the sheer number of older PCs in operations that don't support EFI is enormously higher now throughout the world. The need occurs as you mentioned to either start OS from a larger then 2Tb drive, or from a disk taken out of an EFI-based PC, or an OS that can be launched only via *.efi module.
Last edit: sam bul 2014-08-12
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Hello Rod,
I'm new to rEFInd, looking for a Boot Manager that can handle multiboot of various systems, and missing some info on your Manual pages. Would you care to give some feedback:
What are in your view primary advantages of using rEFInd compare to other popular boot managers?
Is rEFInd most suitable as better replacement to Grub or Grub2, or be equal choice to it, or serve as an add-on to Grub with extra features?
Can rEFInd boot OS from floppy, hard disk and DVD images like ISO, IMA, VHD, VMDK, RAW? Or its in the future plans?
Most folks use Windows as primary OS. How to install rEFInd as an option shown and startable from Windows Bootmgr Menu List, similar to Grub4DOS, instead of being installed as Primary BM?
Is it possible to call rEFInd from Grub4DOS Menu, and vice-versa?
It looks like rEFInd can also boot legacy OS from MBR-based drives. Given this, can rEFInd be used to boot any OS on a PC with BIOS-based MoBO without UEFI support, if a user manually adds FAT32 ESP-volume to the system GPT- or MBR-based HDD, and than adds required by a given OS *.efi files to it?
I'm just looking for ways to use rEFInd also on a BIOS-based PC, and in a more universal fashion, including booting OS from images. I also want to make an educated choice btw Boot Managers, and need some rEFInd comparative advantages list. Sure, most folks not yet familiar with rEFInd would need that too. :)
Last edit: sam bul 2014-08-10
See my Web page on EFI boot loaders:
http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/
Note that this page is dedicated to EFI boot loaders. There's little point in doing a direct comparison to BIOS boot loaders, since the two are entirely different categories.
It can be used with or without GRUB, although for the average user, there's very little point to using both GRUB and rEFInd.
This is not currently possible. This feature would require an EFI loopback driver. Writing such a driver is on my to-do list, but I have no estimate of when (or even if) I might do it.
The Windows boot manager can supposedly chainload to another EFI boot manager/loader, but I have yet to see a good explanation of how to set this up. (There are lots of sites that describe setting up the equivalent in BIOS mode, but those instructions are useless for EFI-mode installations.)
That said, I don't see what the advantage would be of doing it that way. You can set rEFInd to boot Windows by default, and even set options to reduce the timeout value and hide the menu so that you'd be completely unaware that rEFInd was involved, except when you hold a key to activate the rEFInd menu.
GRUB4DOS is a BIOS boot loader. As such, it cannot launch rEFInd. (A partial exception: You could set up GRUB4DOS to launch DUET, which could then launch rEFInd. This would not work on all computers, though, and it's needlessly complex.)
rEFInd can launch GRUB4DOS, or any other BIOS-mode boot loader, provided the EFI includes a Compatibility Support Module (CSM), which is essentially a BIOS emulator. You'd need to be sure that you've activated BIOS support via the
scanforoption inrefind.conf, and install the boot loader you want in the usual way. Note that in some cases you'll need a separate hard disk, since not all BIOS boot loaders work on GPT disks; or you'd need to install rEFInd on an MBR disk (which is very unusual for EFI-based computers). In most cases there's little or no advantage in setting up both BIOS- and EFI-mode boot loaders on one computer. Macs that dual-boot with Windows are the major case where it does make sense to do this. For most others, it's much simpler and more reliable to stick to one boot mode -- EFI-only of BIOS-only.Because rEFInd is an EFI-based boot loader, it requires EFI support to work. This means that it will not work on a BIOS-based motherboard. There is an exception that I've already mentioned, though: You can run it from DUET (or the similar Clover). These tools don't work on every computer, though, and they're a pain to set up. Furthermore, the last I checked, neither DUET nor Clover can boot BIOS-based OSes, so rEFInd itself would only boot EFI-mode OSes in such a setup; you'd need another BIOS-mode boot loader to launch your BIOS-mode OSes.
rEFInd is not a good choice on a BIOS-based PC, since the only way to run it on such a computer is via DUET or Clover, and they're difficult to set up. You're much better off sticking to a traditional BIOS-mode boot loader, like GRUB.
That said, it's conceivable that your computer actually is EFI-based and you don't realize it. The EFI floodgates opened in mid-2011; most computers released after that point were EFI-based, as were a handful sold before then. During the Windows 7 era, most PCs were sold configured to boot in BIOS mode, even when they shipped with EFIs, so some people have EFI-based computers that boot Windows 7 in BIOS mode.
Thanks Rod for the comprehensive reply!
I still want to ask a few more questions if you don't mind... :)
Did you mean that rEFInd's own EFI module must contain CSM (does it?), or my PC's BIOS must include CSM, or both?
Adding Grub4DOS to rEFInd boot menu seems to offer a huge advantage of booting non-EFI OS install from MBR- or GPT-based disk images, in particular VHD, ISO, IMA, etc., and such portable images are now getting a lot more popular and practical in multiboot setup than adding each OS to a separate HDD partition.
My current large PC is BIOS based. I wanted to try Xen in multiboot setup with Windows, and Xen can be booted using xen.efi module. Thats why I wonder if rEFInd can boot Xen if I add Fat32 system partition, and install rEFInd to it. You mentioned, it can start via DUET or Clover. Will look into this, I assume either one can be started from Grub4DOS? Or can you suggest a different approach to multibooting Xen with Windows - possibly only Clover, no rEFInd use?
How exactly would you suggest to install Clover from Windows as a 2nd bootloader? I know, its a question for Clover devs, but they don't know, probably only used it on Macs. I can setup a new small Fat32 System Volume with EFI folder on my system HDD, if it can help. I've Grub4DOS already installed as 2nd bootloader on the BIOS-based PC, its accessible from Windows Boot Menu. But I'd prefer to launch Clover directly from Windows Boot Menu by Bootmgr if possible. If not, how exactly would you suggest to add Clover to the disk and Grub4DOS menu?
Last edit: sam bul 2014-08-11
You misunderstand rEFInd's nature. rEFInd is an EFI program, in the sense that Konqueror is a Linux program or Microsoft Word is a Windows program -- that is, rEFInd runs under EFI. rEFInd is not an EFI implementation itself. There is no "EFI module" in rEFInd. rEFInd's ability to launch a BIOS-mode boot loader depends on the capabilities of the EFI under which rEFInd runs.
Both DUET and Clover are limited, difficult to set up, delicate to maintain. The former requires using some fairly arcane tools for installation, while the latter depends upon OS X to do the basic installation. I've already linked to my page on DUET, and I have no specific suggestions about Clover, and especially not about installing it from Windows. I don't know of anybody who's launched DUET directly from GRUB4DOS. It may well be possible, but I've not heard anything about it, so I simply cannot answer your questions on that score. If you try it, you'll be blazing your own trail. Note that anything you learn will be short-lived, since BIOS is going the way of the dodo; AFAIK, BIOS is no longer being used on any current-production computer (unless you count an EFI's CSM as a BIOS embedded within an EFI).
If your computer is truly BIOS-based, I'm afraid that rEFInd simply is not a good option unless you're desperate (say, if you must boot Windows from an over-2TiB disk) or if you're into experimenting with low-level boot options.
Thanks Rod!
While rEFInd is apparently not an EFI FW implementation in software, Clover seems to be...
I found, how to add Clover PBR to PBR-sector of a small HDD partition and launch Clover via Grub4DOS on a BIOS-based Windows PC. It requires adding a small 100Mb Fat32 EFI partition to your HDD, where clover folder is then copied. In turn, Clover in such setup allows to launch *.efi modules of various OSs on a BIOS-based PC. :)
Yes, I realize, currently made PCs all support EFI, but the sheer number of older PCs in operations that don't support EFI is enormously higher now throughout the world. The need occurs as you mentioned to either start OS from a larger then 2Tb drive, or from a disk taken out of an EFI-based PC, or an OS that can be launched only via *.efi module.
Last edit: sam bul 2014-08-12