refdb-users — List for RefDB users

Re: [Refdb-users] The case against <middlename>

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Dec 9, 2003, at 12:23 PM, Marc Herbert wrote:

> Whereas the distinction between <firstname> and <lastname>, is quite
> shared across different cultures, since it can easily and formally
> defined as "given" name and "family" name, the notion of <middlename>
> seems very culture-specific, and its inclusion in RISX brings more
> issues than benefits. I suggest its suppression from the RISX DTD and
> the refdb databases (just like in other similar formats)

I tend to agree.  Quite an argument you've put together!

> * If I understand well (please confirm, Bruce?), MODS also only knows
> "family" and "given" as nameparts.
>   <http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/mods-outline.html#name>
> I did not understand the meaning of the "date" attribute (thanks in
> advance for explaining), but I guess it is not equivalent to a
> middlename :-) BTW, I like the choice of "family" and "given" as
> attributes, they look very universal, and emphase the meaning as
> opposed to a somewhat controversial "position".

You've got it.  Putting it on an attribute also allows:

<namePart>United States</namePart>
<namePart>Senate</namePart>

 From my understanding, it makes sense to remove middlename from risx, 
and change first and last to family and given, to allow for later 
internationalization (think xml:lang) and MODS.  This took my awhile to 
get comfortable with being my main language is english, but it is the 
case that in many languages the first name is in fact the family name, 
and vice versa.

Bruce

PS - What "date" attribute?

[Refdb-users] The case against <middlename>

[Marc H. <Mar...@en...>]

               The (long) case against <middlename>


In brief
--------

Whereas the distinction between <firstname> and <lastname>, is quite
shared across different cultures, since it can easily and formally
defined as "given" name and "family" name, the notion of <middlename>
seems very culture-specific, and its inclusion in RISX brings more
issues than benefits. I suggest its suppression from the RISX DTD and
the refdb databases (just like in other similar formats)

If not completely suppressed, at least the parsing of RIS authors
should be simplified a lot in order to become predictable, and the
"clever" tricks with dots should be disabled.


Definition issue: what is a "middlename" actually?
--------------------------------------------------

In english, the middle name is a "second firstname", mainly used as
disambiguator.  It is more an extension of the <firstname> than a
first order part of the whole <author>. It may be only a nickname.

In french and spanish, a firstname can be a compound of several
"tokens" up to 3 or more.
<http://klamath.stanford.edu/~molinero/html/surname.html> Whereas in
english a middlename is generally of low importance, parts of a
compound firstname may be of equal importance and inseparable.

Please have a look at some Arabic, Persian and Indian names here:
  <http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/help.html#exotic>
and try to tell what are their <middlename>s :-)

I think the definition of a "middlename" is very different from one
culture to another, and even being "undefined" for some.



Current parsing bugs in refdb 0.9.4-pre2
----------------------------------------

I take a border, but real-world example.

H.K. Jerry Chu <http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/chu96zerocopy.html>

H.K. stands for Hsiao-Keng, it is a abbrieviated compound name.
Anecdote: "Jerry" is here because very few people in the western world
are able to pronounce correctly "Hsiao-Keng".That's also probably the
reason why Hsiao-Keng became "H.K."; to avoid hearing painful sounds.


1)   RIS input ->              -> sqlite encoding

AU - Chu,H.K. Jerry        'Chu,H.K.Jerry','Chu','H','K Jerry '


     -> RISX output !

  <lastname>Chu</lastname>
  <firstname>H</firstname>
  <middlename>K</middlename>
  <middlename>Jerry</middlename>



2)  RISX input ->                  ->  sqlite encoding

   <lastname>Chu</lastname>          'Chu,H.Jerry','Chu','H','Jerry'
   <firstname>H.K.</firstname>
   <middlename>Jerry</middlename>


    RISX output  ->                  ->  RIS output

   <lastname>Chu</lastname>           AU  - Chu,H.Jerry
   <firstname>H</firstname>
   <middlename>Jerry</middlename>


Same bug (the K. is lost) with H.-K.



Others formats/tools
--------------------

Alternatives to RISX do not know the concept of <middlename>

* BibTeX does not have it
<http://nwalsh.com/tex/texhelp/bibtx-23.html>

* RIS (!) does not have it
<http://www.refman.com/support/risformat_tags_02.asp>

* If I understand well (please confirm, Bruce?), MODS also only knows
"family" and "given" as nameparts.
  <http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/mods-outline.html#name>
I did not understand the meaning of the "date" attribute (thanks in
advance for explaining), but I guess it is not equivalent to a
middlename :-) BTW, I like the choice of "family" and "given" as
attributes, they look very universal, and emphase the meaning as
opposed to a somewhat controversial "position".

For all the above formats, the middlename is just a part of the firstname.
Similarly,...
* ...for TEI, the richest format, <firstname> and <middlename> are just two <forename>
<http://www.tei-c.org/P4X/ref-PERSNAME.html>
<http://www.tei-c.org/P4X/ND.html#NDPER>

Interesting note from TEI:

  The "type" attribute may be used with both <foreName> and <surname> elements
  to provide further culture- or project- specific detail about the name
  component, for example:

  	     <foreName type="first">Franklin</foreName>
	     <foreName type="middle">Delano</foreName>
                            ^^^^^^^^

The fact that all these formats do not have the concept of <middlename>, or
at best relegated to a un-standardized, cultural-specific value of a
sub-sub-attribute, teaches us two things:

- their designers found this concept not very useful
- data conversion from/to them will be easier if risx does not have it



Issues brought by suppressing <middlename>
------------------------------------------

* Migration issue
Suggested migration path: no change to database format yet, but while:
- outputting: systematically concatenate firstname and middlenames for
  legacy records (separated by a space).
- inputting: systematically put <middlename> to NULL for new records,
  and store everything in <firstname>
I think these simplifications are easy to code, and I volunteer to do them.


* Formatting/sorting/... issues for subsequent operations

This is the apparent drawback. Suppressing an element means providing
less information to subsequent tools. However, I think lack of
information is better than incomplete/imprecise information. IMHO,
<middlename> carries a refinement that belongs only to a very detailed
level of name representation (at least as detailed as the TEI model).
Using <middlename> together with <firstname> and <lastname> is only a
halfhearted (and thus imprecise) attempt to more deeply parse the
name. And as shown above, the RIS input syntax is not ready for that,
(I mean: AU - Lastname[,(F.|First)[(M.|Middle)[,Suffix]]] is not
"clean"), and the RISX input is buggy.


- About formatting

LaTeX/BibTeX for instance performs a second stage parsing
(part -> tokens) that relies on spaces, capitals and dots. It allows
automated abbreviations among others.  The user can use a "hack"
(escape braces {} inlined in the data) to prevent any "too clever"
formatting. The need for this hack proves that the automated
formatting may fail to address specific cases. But at least the data
model is simple and thus can't be wrong: all tokens of the complete
given name are stored together in the same string; if one stylesheet
does the formatting wrong, another one may do it right.
<http://nwalsh.com/tex/texhelp/bibtx-23.html>


- About sorting

The question is here: what do we do with:
"Donald Knuth", "Donald E. Knuth", "Don Knuth" (without dot!), "D. E. Knuth",...

1) I think the best answer is: nothing. The tradition in the BibTeX
world is:
  But an author's complete name may be "Donald E. Knuth" or even
  "J. P. Morgan"; you should type it the way the author would like it to
  appear, if that's known.

I think it is the responsibility of the author to "standardize" the
way his name is written across articles, and not the role of databases
to try to make "clever" but very error-prone merges. Again, lack of
information is better than wrong information. Is it such a big
deal that the names above are seen as different? After all, they
will be sorted just one after the other and match together
fuzzy queries. And automated merges are still possible, but as an
_ultimate_ step, not corrupting the data and losing information in the
first place.

2) Unless it is decided something weird like: author names are equal
iff their <firstname> are equal (and we do not care about
<middlename>s), then <middlename> does not help in solving the
(difficult) problem above.



Mild alternative
----------------

Still want to hold on <middlename>s and make as little changes as
possible? Then twist the original user input as least as possible, and
do only perfectly reversible transformations: name parsing/splitting
it based _only_ on spaces (I know no language where the size of space
is meaningful), the output always gives those spaces back, and there
is no "clever" parsing using dots, dashes or any other sign (can
someone affirm that the dot "." is the universal abbreviation sign, in any
language?)

Users are generally not upset by a software that does NOT add a dot
that they forgot, but they get angry when they do not understand
at all how and why the software modifies their data, and then they
write long emails :-) Moreover, complexity brings bugs; simplicity
brings reliability.


Comments?

[Refdb-users] Problems Compiling refdb on FreeBSD

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Hi Jake,

on FreeBSD the expat and libdbi headers end up in /usr/local/include
which is not in the default search path. Setting CFLAGS properly on
the configure command line fixes this problem. This is what I use on
my FreeBSD box (the -g is for debugging, you should not need it):

./configure --with-expat-lib=/usr/local/lib
--with-docbook-xsl=/usr/local/share/xsl/docbook
--with-tei-xsl=/usr/local/share/xsl/tei
--with-classpath-root=/usr/local/share/java/classes
--with-refdb-url=http://tipi.mininet/refdb --with-var-dir=/var/run
--with-log-dir=/var/log --with-db-server=sqlite
CFLAGS="-I/usr/local/include -g"

regards
Markus

Jake Stride writes:
 > I am trying to compile refdb on freebsd but seem to be running into a few
 > problems, I have update my system but having configured refdb:
 > 
 > ./configure --with-expat-lib=/usr/local/lib
 > --with-docbook-xsl=/usr/local/share/xsl/docbook
 > --with-classpath-root=/usr/local/share/java/classes
 > --with-refdb-url=http://localhost/refdb --with-db-server=pgsql
 > 
 > When running make I still cannot compile, I do have expat.h on my system:
 > 
 > lancelot# locate dbi.h
 > /usr/local/include/expat.h
 > 
 > But if I change the expat path to this dir, the config script bombs out. Has
 > anyone else had this problem/solved it?
 > 
 > Thanks
 > 
 > Jake
 > 
 > 

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

[Refdb-users] bibliographic templates for emacs

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

FYI, I've pout together some templates to simplify data entry in emacs.  
  More at:

http://netapps.muohio.edu/movabletype/archives/darcusb/darcusb/ 
000090.html

The templates are for mods, but are easily modified for risx.

Bruce

[Refdb-users] Problems Compiling refdb on FreeBSD

[Jake S. <ja...@dc...>]

I am trying to compile refdb on freebsd but seem to be running into a few
problems, I have update my system but having configured refdb:

./configure --with-expat-lib=/usr/local/lib
--with-docbook-xsl=/usr/local/share/xsl/docbook
--with-classpath-root=/usr/local/share/java/classes
--with-refdb-url=http://localhost/refdb --with-db-server=pgsql

When running make I still cannot compile, I do have expat.h on my system:

lancelot# locate dbi.h
/usr/local/include/expat.h

But if I change the expat path to this dir, the config script bombs out. Has
anyone else had this problem/solved it?

Thanks

Jake


Lancelot# gmake
Making all in src
gmake[1]: Entering directory `/root/refdb-0.9.3/src'
source='refdbd.c' object='refdbd.o' libtool=no \
depfile='.deps/refdbd.Po' tmpdepfile='.deps/refdbd.TPo' \
depmode=none /usr/local/bin/bash .././conf/depcomp \
gcc -DPACKAGE_NAME=\"\" -DPACKAGE_TARNAME=\"\" -DPACKAGE_VERSION=\"\"
-DPACKAGE_STRING=\"\" -DPACKAGE_BUGREPORT=\"\" -DPACKAGE=\"refdb\"
-DVERSION=\"0.9.3\" -DREADLINE41=1 -DSTDC_HEADERS=1 -DHAVE_SYS_TYPES_H=1
-DHAVE_SYS_STAT_H=1 -DHAVE_STDLIB_H=1 -DHAVE_STRING_H=1 -DHAVE_MEMORY_H=1
-DHAVE_STRINGS_H=1 -DHAVE_INTTYPES_H=1 -DHAVE_UNISTD_H=1 -DHAVE_FCNTL_H=1
-DHAVE_LIMITS_H=1 -DHAVE_SYS_FILE_H=1 -DHAVE_SYS_TIME_H=1
-DHAVE_SYS_IOCTL_H=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG_H=1 -DHAVE_UNISTD_H=1
-DTIME_WITH_SYS_TIME=1 -DRETSIGTYPE=void -DHAVE_STRFTIME=1 -DHAVE_MKFIFO=1
-DHAVE_GETHOSTNAME=1 -DHAVE_SELECT=1 -DHAVE_SOCKET=1 -DHAVE_STRCSPN=1
-DHAVE_STRSTR=1 -DHAVE_STRTOLL=1  -I. -I.
-DSYSCONFDIR=\"/usr/local/etc/refdb\" -DULLSPEC=\"%qu\"   -L/usr/local/lib
-c `test -f refdbd.c || echo './'`refdbd.c
refdbd.c:40: dbi/dbi.h: No such file or directory
In file included from refdbd.c:50:
refdbd.h:23: expat.h: No such file or directory
gmake[1]: *** [refdbd.o] Error 1
gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/root/refdb-0.9.3/src'
gmake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1

Re: [Refdb-users] xnotes

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Bruce D'Arcus writes:
 > Though with the schema languages, you can precisely validate the data 
 > attribute.  I understand your point though, even if it does add a lot 
 > additional markup that seems like overkill for me, particularly when 
 > this is in essence a data stamp that can be automated (via a macro on a 
 > template, or in a gui client).
 > 

Actually refdbd is supposed to insert the current date if no date
is specified. I just didn't get around to code it as far as I can tell.

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

Re: [Refdb-users] xnotes

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Nov 26, 2003, at 5:28 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

> Here's the notes DTD (converted with Trang; the mods-bn stuff cannot 
> be represented in a DTD).  My focus has been on annotation markup, 
> while your's the larger structure.  Both are important, and I like 
> what you've done.   Annotations, unfortunately, have been dropped.
>
Um, I mean annotations of the schema itself.

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] xnotes

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Nov 26, 2003, at 4:06 PM, Markus Hoenicka wrote:

>> I think it'd be better to put the date into an attribute on the main
>> xnote element.  Example: <xnote date="20031125">
>
> I don't like that as it requires additional non-xml parsing in any
> stylesheet working on these data. Not that this is difficult per se,
> but people will change the order of Y-M-D or forget the zeros in
> one-digit dates or use two-digit years if they are given a chance
> to. Every stylesheet will have to deal with the odd cases and user
> ignorance. Using a date element with subelements solves all these
> issues.

Though with the schema languages, you can precisely validate the data 
attribute.  I understand your point though, even if it does add a lot 
additional markup that seems like overkill for me, particularly when 
this is in essence a data stamp that can be automated (via a macro on a 
template, or in a gui client).

>> I've managed to get my own notes schema to work with MODS.  What I'm
>> now looking at is merging it with xnote.  Feedback would help.
>
> Why don't you go ahead and post your current schema (also converted to
> DTD for the boneheads)? There's room for improvements in the current
> implementation of notex.dtd, and I'd like to learn from your
> experience.

Here's the notes DTD (converted with Trang; the mods-bn stuff cannot be 
represented in a DTD).  My focus has been on annotation markup, while 
your's the larger structure.  Both are important, and I like what 
you've done.   Annotations, unfortunately, have been dropped.

<!-- start = biblio-notes -->

<!ELEMENT ns1:biblio-notes (title?,note*,keyword*)>
<!ATTLIST ns1:biblio-notes
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ELEMENT ns1:title (#PCDATA)>
<!ATTLIST ns1:title
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ELEMENT ns1:keyword (#PCDATA)>
<!ATTLIST ns1:keyword
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ELEMENT ns1:note (p)*>
<!ATTLIST ns1:note
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ATTLIST note
   ID ID #IMPLIED
   user CDATA #IMPLIED
   href CDATA #IMPLIED
   xml:lang CDATA #IMPLIED
   date NMTOKEN #IMPLIED
   refs IDREFS #IMPLIED
   seealso IDREFS #IMPLIED
   unit NMTOKEN #IMPLIED
   start NMTOKEN #IMPLIED
   end NMTOKEN #IMPLIED>

<!ENTITY % Citation.attlist "
   refs IDREFS #IMPLIED
   seealso IDREFS #IMPLIED
   unit NMTOKEN #IMPLIED
   start NMTOKEN #IMPLIED
   end NMTOKEN #IMPLIED">

<!ENTITY % ext.Blocks "">

<!-- main elements -->

<!ENTITY % Blocks "p|blockquote %ext.Blocks;">

<!ENTITY % ext.Inlines "">

<!ENTITY % Inlines "#PCDATA|em|q|span %ext.Inlines;">

<!ELEMENT ns1:p (%Inlines;|%Blocks;)*>
<!ATTLIST ns1:p
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ATTLIST p
   %Citation.attlist;>

<!ELEMENT ns1:q (%Inlines;)*>
<!ATTLIST ns1:q
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ATTLIST q
   %Citation.attlist;>

<!ELEMENT ns1:blockquote (p)*>
<!ATTLIST ns1:blockquote
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ATTLIST blockquote
   %Citation.attlist;>

<!ELEMENT ns1:em (%Inlines;)*>
<!ATTLIST ns1:em
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ATTLIST em
   source (original|added) #IMPLIED>

<!ELEMENT ns1:span (%Inlines;)*>
<!ATTLIST ns1:span
   xmlns:ns1 CDATA #FIXED 'http://refdb.sourceforge.net/biblio-notes-ns'>

<!ATTLIST span
   type CDATA #IMPLIED
   xml:lang CDATA #IMPLIED>

<!ENTITY % attlist.pagebreak "">

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Nov 26, 2003, at 3:46 PM, Markus Hoenicka wrote:

> Then of course the question arises why you would use a database-based
> reference manager if you manage your references by hand. I'm sorry to
> say so but it seems to be the wrong tool for your purposes.

If the RefDB data model stands still, or you only ever support risx 
import/export, then you're right.  I don't expect that, however.

Ultimately I need to format the stuff, so the notion of keeping 
original files in MODS for the short-to-mid-term, and converting to RIS 
or RISX, might be a good approach for me.  I'm dealing with some funky 
data for my project right now, and I want to make sure it gets coded 
right.  Chris Putnam's tools will soon be able to reliably convert from 
MODS --> RIS, which facilitate this.

Bruce

[Refdb-users] xnotes

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Bruce D'Arcus writes:
 > 
 > Been looking at the xnotes dtd.  A couple of observations/questions:
 > 
 > On the link element:
 > 
 > 1)  Why is there a keyword element and a keyword attribute value on 
 > link?  Isn't this redundant?
 > 

The keyword element is used to enter keywords that help you locate
notes by keyword, just like you locate references by keyword. The
keyword attribute in the link element allows you to attach a note to a
keyword if you'd ever want to do that. You might use it e.g. to
explain ugly acronyms used as keywords.

 > 2)  Why the journal links?  I'd assume author and reference would cover 
 > the need (and maybe keyword).
 > 

Again, this allows you to attach a note to a periodical. Enter the
names of the editorial board members to see whether it is biased or
whatever you can think of. Supporting additional links in xnotes.dtd
comes at an extremely low cost, so I'd rather put these links in than
wait for the obvious question that will eventually arise.

 > 3)  I remain uncomfortable with "author."  Maybe following MODS -- with 
 > "name" -- would be better?
 > 

I'm not religious about element names. Let's try and hear a few other
opinions.

 > Other issues:
 > 
 > I think it'd be better to put the date into an attribute on the main 
 > xnote element.  Example: <xnote date="20031125">
 > 

I don't like that as it requires additional non-xml parsing in any
stylesheet working on these data. Not that this is difficult per se,
but people will change the order of Y-M-D or forget the zeros in
one-digit dates or use two-digit years if they are given a chance
to. Every stylesheet will have to deal with the odd cases and user
ignorance. Using a date element with subelements solves all these
issues.

 > I've managed to get my own notes schema to work with MODS.  What I'm 
 > now looking at is merging it with xnote.  Feedback would help.
 > 

Why don't you go ahead and post your current schema (also converted to
DTD for the boneheads)? There's room for improvements in the current
implementation of notex.dtd, and I'd like to learn from your
experience.

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

[Refdb-users] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Refdb-users]_Re:_[Refdb-users]_Re:=20?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?[Refdb-users]_Re:_[Refdb-users]=20?=

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

[cc'ing to the list]

Johan Ekh writes:
 > Hello again!
 > I've used the switch "--with-db-server=sqlite" as
 > you suggested. No improvment. Please find attached 
 > the "refdbdrc" configuration file.
 > 

There is another possibility if none of the configuration changes
help. Could you please check your process list whether an old refdbd
process is still lingering? This would answer all queries using the
configuration it was started with.

 > Here is the output from "refdbd -s -e 0 -l 7".
 > I get the output immediately when I (as root) run
 > the command. Running "refdbc" followed by "listdb"
 > as a regular user generates no further output.
 > 
 > ===
 > 
 > pcjohan:~ # refdbd -s -e 0 -l 7
 > dbi_driver_dir went to:
 > 
 > dbi is up using default driver dir
 > Available libdbi database drivers:
 > sqlite
 > pgsql
 > application server started
 > use /tmp/refdbd_fifo17481 as fifo
 > server waiting n_max_fd=4
 > 
 > ===
 > 

This looks pretty normal, and the config file looks ok too for
sqlite. If you test PostgreSQL it lacks the dbsport value.

As I can't see anything that would prevent RefDB from working
properly, do you see a possibility to provide a SSH account on your
box? I'd be happy to remotely debug this problem.

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Bruce D'Arcus writes:
 > I have to say I'm sympathetic to this Markus.  I myself will probably 
 > be coding my data in MODS, with my own custom notes schema added to the 
 > extension element.  For me the data is too precious.
 > 

Then of course the question arises why you would use a database-based
reference manager if you manage your references by hand. I'm sorry to
say so but it seems to be the wrong tool for your purposes.

regards,
Markus
 
-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

[Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Marc Herbert writes:
 > IMHO, doing this is also interesting in order to test/debug refdb. XML
 > as the "master" copy buys you some reliability, which does not prevent
 > using all the nifty features of a ("slave") database. The price to
 > pay, of course, is about frequently updating the slave. I suspect this
 > can be highly automated, though.
 > 

Yes, the non-interactive mode of refdbc is great for scripting. Or you
hack your own Perl script using the RefDBClient module.

BTW I use a shell script to debug RefDB, and "make test" of the
RefDBClient module is also helpful for this purpose.

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Justus H. Piater writes:
 > One more thing: risx does not provide a field for ISBN/ISSN numbers,
 > does it?
 > 
It does. It's called <serial> and goes into <pubinfo>.

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

[Refdb-users] mods-bn

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

I'm posting where things are at now.

http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/mods-bn.tar.gz

Here's what I did:

1)  converted MODS to Relax NG

2)  created a Relax NG notes schema (not currently synced with xnote)

3)  created a new schema -- called mods-bn -- that adds 2 to the 
extension element of 1

Example file at:

http://www.users.muohio.edu/darcusb/files/test.mods

For the notes I started with docbook-ish markup, but switched to the 
more compact element names of html to keep markup less intrusive.

If you create a file in nxml mode and load the mods-bn schema, you will 
get tag completion on the extension element for the notes schema.  If 
nothing else, perhaps this shows the potential of Relax NG.  More 
importantly, it'll help me get some work done over the long weekend 
(holiday here in the U.S.).

Comments welcome.  I've not quite determined if the atribute-based 
approach will work for these needs, or whether I need to switch to 
something like the new DocBook stuff.

Bruce

[Refdb-users] xnotes

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

Been looking at the xnotes dtd.  A couple of observations/questions:

On the link element:

1)  Why is there a keyword element and a keyword attribute value on 
link?  Isn't this redundant?

2)  Why the journal links?  I'd assume author and reference would cover 
the need (and maybe keyword).

3)  I remain uncomfortable with "author."  Maybe following MODS -- with 
"name" -- would be better?

Other issues:

I think it'd be better to put the date into an attribute on the main 
xnote element.  Example: <xnote date="20031125">

I've managed to get my own notes schema to work with MODS.  What I'm 
now looking at is merging it with xnote.  Feedback would help.

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

Whether or not the LoC adds a type attribute to place or not, one way 
to code in MODS a conference presentation that is also published in a 
proceedings is to use the main record for the event place (Seoul, 
Korea), and the relatedItem "host" container to code the publisher and 
its place.

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Nov 25, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Justus H. Piater wrote:

> The field "eventaddress" gives the location of the conference, as
> opposed to "address" which is supposed to be the publisher's address.

I agree with you.

MODS has a place element.  The problem is it has no attribute to 
distinguish a publisher place from an event place.  So, you could code 
the event place there, but if you also needed to capture the publisher 
(of a proceedings, for example) and its place, I don't think you could 
do it.

I just sent a note to the Library of Congress people to see if they can 
slip a type attribute for place into the new release.  I've been doing 
this for the past six months though, so they might be sick of me ;-)

Still, they've implemented most of my suggestions.

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Nov 25, 2003, at 3:43 AM, Justus H. Piater wrote:

> The XML format/DTD/schema/whatever. This would allow me to put in more
> information than is supported by any given reference manager. RefDB is
> a great tool, but I like my independence :-). I could interoperate
> with RefDB by transforming my refs file to risx and back using XSLT.

I have to say I'm sympathetic to this Markus.  I myself will probably 
be coding my data in MODS, with my own custom notes schema added to the 
extension element.  For me the data is too precious.

Bruce

[Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Marc H. <mar...@en...>]

>=A0In any
> case I don't understand the advantage of maintaining your references
> outside of a database. You can retrieve them from the database as XML
> files and update them any time. You can even retrieve the full
> database as XML periodically and check this into CVS. But the point of
> a reference manager is to make the references accessible by simple
> queries. If you maintain your data outside the database, you're back
> to grep, or you overload your brain with things a database was
> designed to remember.

IMHO, doing this is also interesting in order to test/debug refdb. XML
as the "master" copy buys you some reliability, which does not prevent
using all the nifty features of a ("slave") database. The price to
pay, of course, is about frequently updating the slave. I suspect this
can be highly automated, though.

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[<Jus...@UL...>]

Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@fa...> wrote on Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:13:42
-0500:

> On Monday, November 24, 2003, at 04:35  PM, Markus Hoenicka wrote:
>
>>> - It would be nice to provide an event address for conferences (which
>>>   is usually different from the publisher's or organization's
>>>   address).
>>
>> Bruce: can MODS do this?
>
> I'm not sure exactly what he's wanting here.  Maybe an example would=20
> help?
>
> MODS does have a "place" element that might do this.

Here's what he's wanting:

@InProceedings{Piater:BMCV00,
  author =3D	 {Justus H. Piater and Roderic A. Grupen},
  title =3D	 {Distinctive Features Should Be Learned},
  url =3D
  {http://www-robotics.cs.umass.edu/cgi-bin/getfile/pub/papers/BMCV2000.ps.=
gz},
  booktitle =3D	 j-BMCV00,
  pages =3D	 {52--61},
  year =3D	 2000,
  editor =3D	 {Seong-Whan Lee and Heinrich H. B\"ulthoff and Tomaso Poggio},
  volume =3D	 1811,
  eventaddress =3D {Seoul, Korea},
  month =3D	 may,
  publisher =3D	 pub-SV,
  address =3D      pub-SV:addr,
  series =3D       {LNCS}
}

The field "eventaddress" gives the location of the conference, as
opposed to "address" which is supposed to be the publisher's address.

One can argue that this does not belong into a bibliographic reference
(rather into a free-form annotation?), but it is evidently a piece of
well-structured information associated with the event that gave rise
to the publication.

Justus

--=20
Justus H. Piater, Ph.D.         http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~piater/
Institut Montefiore, B28        Phone: +32-4-366-2279
Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge, Belgium    Fax:   +32-4-366-2620

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[<Jus...@UL...>]

"Markus Hoenicka" <mar...@mh...> wrote on Mon, 24 Nov
2003 22:35:02 +0100:

> Justus H. Piater writes:
>
>  > Indeed, I am not sure what an input template would provide over and
>  > above psgml-mode. Except: In my local copy of risx.dtd, I made the
>  > citekey and the type #REQUIRED so that psgml-mode prompts for them.
>  >=20
>
> This is not a bad idea for entering data from scratch. However, I
> didn't want to force this upon users because refdbd can create useful
> citekeys if none are provided. Some people may prefer this convenience.

Sure. I did this just for my own convenience, because I prefer to
maintain my cite keys by hand.

>  > - In <libinfo>, why isn't <reprint> optional? Also, the only allowed
>  >   content is <date>, not even #CDATA is permitted. This contradicts
>  >   the RIS specification of the RP field, doesn't it?
> ...
> BTW the RIS spec says the RP field can contain one of three status
> notes, one of which (ON REQUEST) may be followed by a date. This is
> exactly what the reprint element represents: The attribute encodes the
> status, the optional child is the date.

Oops, my bad. I should have checked the attributes :-/

>  > Another issue: I'd like the "master" representation of my references
>  > to be an XML file rather than a data base because that allows me to
>  > choose and change the format as desired. To make this practical, it
>  > would really help if RefDB could optionally identify references by the
>  > citekey instead of by the numeric ID. This would allow me to store
>  > references from different sources in the same RefDB database, and to
>  > update some of them by re-importing manually maintained XML files.
>
> I don't know what you mean by "choosing and changing the format"?

The XML format/DTD/schema/whatever. This would allow me to put in more
information than is supported by any given reference manager. RefDB is
a great tool, but I like my independence :-). I could interoperate
with RefDB by transforming my refs file to risx and back using XSLT.

> But you can of course update references by providing only the
> citekey but no ID. The risx import routine always checks the citekey
> first, then the ID.

Ah, this was the missing link. All is well then.

One more thing: risx does not provide a field for ISBN/ISSN numbers,
does it?

Justus

--=20
Justus H. Piater, Ph.D.         http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~piater/
Institut Montefiore, B28        Phone: +32-4-366-2279
Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge, Belgium    Fax:   +32-4-366-2620

[Refdb-users] MODS Relax NG Schema

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

I've attached the forthcoming v3 of the MODS XML Schema, which I've 
converted to Relax NG, in case anyone wants to test it with nxml mode.

The XML Schema version cannot be used with emacs, of course, but can 
with jEdit.

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Monday, November 24, 2003, at 04:35  PM, Markus Hoenicka wrote:

>> Even better, one could convert the DTD to RELAX NG and use it with
>> nxml-mode which does XML validation.
>
> I'm reluctant to go down this path as currently few tools support
> RELAX NG. This is supposed to change eventually.

Well, both libxml and emacs now support Relax NG, so I'm not sure how 
serious a limitation this is now.

>> - I think there should be a way to provide a <url> for a conference
>>   article that's been published in a proceedings volume. This belongs
>>   into the <part>, I think.
>
> Question to Bruce (he knows MODS better than me): can MODS do this?

Yes.  MODS has a location element, with type attributes for "physical" 
and "electronic."  In RISX, you represent this example like:

- part = conference article
- publication = conference proceedings

In MODS, it is:

conference article
relatedItem "host" = conference proceedings

The location element can go in either level in MODS.

>> - It would be nice to provide an event address for conferences (which
>>   is usually different from the publisher's or organization's
>>   address).
>
> Bruce: can MODS do this?

I'm not sure exactly what he's wanting here.  Maybe an example would 
help?

MODS does have a "place" element that might do this.

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] Re: nitpicking (element ordering in risx)

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Bruce D'Arcus writes:
 > Markus, I thought you had added a way to code "role"?
 > 

I'm sure I did. I'm afraid it went in after 0.9.3. The CVS version
should have it in any case.

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de