From: Richard C. <r.c...@ed...> - 2013-07-18 14:44:18
|
All, Good news regarding this, I contacted Accellera and they are updating the manual regarding the .vams files to state they may be reused freely. Here is what will be added to start of Annex D containing the files: -- Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. -- 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. -- -- The material in this Annex is an essential part of the Accellera Systems Initiative ("Accellera") -- Verilog-AMS Language Standard. Verbatim copies of the -- material in this Annex may be used and distributed without restriction. -- All other uses require permission from Accellera IP Committee (ipr...@li...). -- All other rights reserved. Will this be sufficient from a debian point of view? Richard The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. |
From: Kevin C. <cam...@gm...> - 2013-07-21 22:07:34
|
Just a couple of comments: While Verilog-AMS needs discipline header files to work they are not really part of the language spec or any simulator, so the license isn't really import (just the copyright). You can also separate the the simulator distribution from the header distribution if needed. Al's approach with GNUcap is to make almost everything a "plug-in", as such only the core needs to have the right licensing - the plug-ins can have different licenses and you can distribute them separately. Personally I'm envisaging the future of simulation as being an open-source core with more of an apps market where some tools are commercial. QuCs could do the same. Kev. PS: as a member of the Verilog-AMS committee at Accellera I can't say I've seen any requests for license changes go by. On 07/19/2013 04:29 AM, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote: > On Thursday, July 18, 2013, Richard Crozier <r.c...@ed...> wrote: >> All, >> >> Good news regarding this, I contacted Accellera and they are updating the >> manual regarding the .vams files to state they may be reused freely. Here >> is what will be added to start of Annex D containing the files: >> >> -- Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. >> -- 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. >> -- >> -- The material in this Annex is an essential part of the Accellera Systems Initiative ("Accellera") >> -- Verilog-AMS Language Standard. Verbatim copies of the >> -- material in this Annex may be used and distributed without restriction. >> -- All other uses require permission from Accellera IP Committee (ipr...@li...). >> -- All other rights reserved. >> >> >> Will this be sufficient from a debian point of view? > Non free and more important incompatible with gpl2 render qucs non distributable (and I am not willing to relicence my past and present > contribution to qucs in order to add an exception). > > Bastien >> Richard >> >> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in >> Scotland, with registration number SC005336. >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics > Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds. > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Qucs-devel mailing list > Quc...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qucs-devel |
From: roucaries b. <rou...@gm...> - 2013-07-22 06:17:27
|
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Kevin Cameron <cam...@gm...> wrote: > > Just a couple of comments: > > While Verilog-AMS needs discipline header files to work they are not really part of the language spec or any simulator, so the license isn't really import (just the copyright). You can also separate the the simulator distribution from the header distribution if needed. No under some juridication, it will push the compliance burden to user and create composite work with mixed license. License is important. Moreover, we could not even compress it under some juridiction, because it means alteration (I know crappy but it exist). > > Al's approach with GNUcap is to make almost everything a "plug-in", as such only the core needs to have the right licensing - the plug-ins can have different licenses and you can distribute them separately. Personally I'm envisaging the future of simulation as being an open-source core with more of an apps market where some tools are commercial. QuCs could do the same. Yes we could do the same, but it will need your user to download the file and get it in the right place. For some simple file, I will prefer to go to the route of clean room implementation of standard[1], if we could not relicense these two trivial file. It was done for windows headers and it could be done. I am volonteer to write the specs. I personnaly believe that future of simulation is like you have described but at least I for something trivial as bolzman constant, I believe it should be free as beer [2] > > Kev. > > PS: as a member of the Verilog-AMS committee at Accellera I can't say I've seen any requests for license changes go by. We will prefer expat license or best I think dual licensing. Siomthing like: Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. The material in this Annex is an essential part of the Accellera Systems Initiative ("Accellera") Verilog-AMS Language Standard These material is provided dual-licensed under the terms of both the verbatim text standard license, or the zlib like license, at your choice. Where verbatim text standard license is: Verbatim copies of the material in this Annex may be used and distributed without restriction. All other uses require permission from Accellera IP Committee (ipr...@li...). All other rights reserved. Where the zlib like license is: This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied warranty. In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages arising from the use of this software. Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose, including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it freely, subject to the following restrictions: 1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must not claim that you wrote the original software. If you use this software in a product, an acknowledgment in the product documentation would be appreciated but is not required. 2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such, and must not be misrepresented as being the original software. Additionnally these altered source version must be plainly marked as non-standard. 3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any source distribution. Bastien [1] see google for clean room design. [2] because physical constant are facts they are not copyrightable in US and in Europe. So at least one file is under dubious right. > > > On 07/19/2013 04:29 AM, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote: >> On Thursday, July 18, 2013, Richard Crozier <r.c...@ed...> wrote: >>> All, >>> >>> Good news regarding this, I contacted Accellera and they are updating the >>> manual regarding the .vams files to state they may be reused freely. Here >>> is what will be added to start of Annex D containing the files: >>> >>> -- Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. >>> -- 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. >>> -- >>> -- The material in this Annex is an essential part of the Accellera Systems Initiative ("Accellera") >>> -- Verilog-AMS Language Standard. Verbatim copies of the >>> -- material in this Annex may be used and distributed without restriction. >>> -- All other uses require permission from Accellera IP Committee (ipr...@li...). >>> -- All other rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> Will this be sufficient from a debian point of view? >> Non free and more important incompatible with gpl2 render qucs non distributable (and I am not willing to relicence my past and present >> contribution to qucs in order to add an exception). >> >> Bastien >>> Richard >>> >>> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in >>> Scotland, with registration number SC005336. >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics >> Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics >> Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds. >> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today! >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Qucs-devel mailing list >> Quc...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qucs-devel > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics > Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds. > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Qucs-devel mailing list > Quc...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qucs-devel |
From: Richard C. <r.c...@ed...> - 2013-07-22 08:28:38
|
>> Kev. >> >> PS: as a member of the Verilog-AMS committee at Accellera I can't say I've seen any requests for license changes go by. > We will prefer expat license or best I think dual licensing. Siomthing like: > Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. > 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. > The material in this Annex is an essential part of the Accellera > Systems Initiative ("Accellera") > Verilog-AMS Language Standard > These material is provided dual-licensed under the terms of both the > verbatim text standard license, or the zlib like license, at your > choice. > Where verbatim text standard license is: > Verbatim copies of the > material in this Annex may be used and distributed without restriction. > All other uses require permission from Accellera IP Committee > (ipr...@li...). > All other rights reserved. > Where the zlib like license is: > This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied > warranty. In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages > arising from the use of this software. > Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose, > including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it > freely, subject to the following restrictions: > 1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must > not claim that you wrote the original software. If you use this > software in a product, an acknowledgment in the product documentation > would be appreciated but is not required. > 2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such, and must > not be misrepresented as being the original software. Additionnally > these altered source version must be plainly marked as non-standard. > 3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any source distribution. > > Bastien > > Kevin, I have been in contact with a Dave Miller (CC'd) from Accellera regarding this issue. I thought to avoid duplication I'd make everyone aware of thisconversation. Dave, for background, Kevin Cameron was listening in on the dev mailing list for Qucs. Dave and Kevin, What does Accellera think of Bastien's licence suggestion above? Feel free to respond privately if you'd rather not discuss it on a public mailing list. Richard -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. |
From: Kevin C. <cam...@gm...> - 2013-07-22 20:34:11
|
In a mixed simulation environment you should be able to describe the same information in VHDL and use that instead of the Verilog-AMS. Just read the C math headers for the constants. Building in the defaults and skipping supplying the header also works. There are many ways to avoid this problem. Kev. PS: I have a C/C++ parser that I've used for recompiling Spice models on the fly, if you want a parser. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:17 PM, roucaries bastien <rou...@gm...> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Kevin Cameron <cam...@gm...> wrote: >> >> Just a couple of comments: >> >> While Verilog-AMS needs discipline header files to work they are not really part of the language spec or any simulator, so the license isn't really import (just the copyright). You can also separate the the simulator distribution from the header distribution if needed. > > No under some juridication, it will push the compliance burden to user > and create composite work with mixed license. License is important. > Moreover, we could not even compress it under some juridiction, > because it means alteration (I know crappy but it exist). >> >> Al's approach with GNUcap is to make almost everything a "plug-in", as such only the core needs to have the right licensing - the plug-ins can have different licenses and you can distribute them separately. Personally I'm envisaging the future of simulation as being an open-source core with more of an apps market where some tools are commercial. QuCs could do the same. > > Yes we could do the same, but it will need your user to download the > file and get it in the right place. For some simple file, I will > prefer to go to the route of clean room implementation of standard[1], > if we could not relicense these two trivial file. It was done for > windows headers and it could be done. I am volonteer to write the > specs. > > I personnaly believe that future of simulation is like you have > described but at least I for something trivial as bolzman constant, I > believe it should be free as beer [2] >> >> Kev. >> >> PS: as a member of the Verilog-AMS committee at Accellera I can't say I've seen any requests for license changes go by. > > We will prefer expat license or best I think dual licensing. Siomthing like: > Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. > 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. > The material in this Annex is an essential part of the Accellera > Systems Initiative ("Accellera") > Verilog-AMS Language Standard > These material is provided dual-licensed under the terms of both the > verbatim text standard license, or the zlib like license, at your > choice. > Where verbatim text standard license is: > Verbatim copies of the > material in this Annex may be used and distributed without restriction. > All other uses require permission from Accellera IP Committee > (ipr...@li...). > All other rights reserved. > Where the zlib like license is: > This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied > warranty. In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages > arising from the use of this software. > Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose, > including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it > freely, subject to the following restrictions: > 1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must > not claim that you wrote the original software. If you use this > software in a product, an acknowledgment in the product documentation > would be appreciated but is not required. > 2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such, and must > not be misrepresented as being the original software. Additionnally > these altered source version must be plainly marked as non-standard. > 3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any source distribution. > > Bastien > > [1] see google for clean room design. > [2] because physical constant are facts they are not copyrightable in > US and in Europe. So at least one file is under dubious right. > >> >> >> On 07/19/2013 04:29 AM, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote: >>> On Thursday, July 18, 2013, Richard Crozier <r.c...@ed...> wrote: >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Good news regarding this, I contacted Accellera and they are updating the >>>> manual regarding the .vams files to state they may be reused freely. Here >>>> is what will be added to start of Annex D containing the files: >>>> >>>> -- Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. >>>> -- 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. >>>> -- >>>> -- The material in this Annex is an essential part of the Accellera Systems Initiative ("Accellera") >>>> -- Verilog-AMS Language Standard. Verbatim copies of the >>>> -- material in this Annex may be used and distributed without restriction. >>>> -- All other uses require permission from Accellera IP Committee (ipr...@li...). >>>> -- All other rights reserved. >>>> >>>> >>>> Will this be sufficient from a debian point of view? >>> Non free and more important incompatible with gpl2 render qucs non distributable (and I am not willing to relicence my past and present >>> contribution to qucs in order to add an exception). >>> >>> Bastien >>>> Richard >>>> >>>> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in >>>> Scotland, with registration number SC005336. >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics >>> Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics >>> Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds. >>> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today! >>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Qucs-devel mailing list >>> Quc...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qucs-devel >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics >> Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics >> Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds. >> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today! >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Qucs-devel mailing list >> Quc...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qucs-devel |
From: Frans S. <fra...@gm...> - 2013-07-23 06:56:22
|
Hi Richard, I just built both versions using the adms disciplines and constants and the qucs disciplines and constants. Then ran a diff on all generated cpp and h files. It turns out that all files are equal, diff couldn't find any differences so I am quite sure we can replace the two files. Frans On 22-07-13 18:39, Richard Crozier wrote: > All, > > I just tried the following, effectively: > > checked out a pristine copy of Qucs > cd (to qucs-core directory) > mv ./adms/admsXml/constants.vams./adms/admsXml/constants.vams.bak > mv ./src/components/verilog/constants.vams./adms/admsXml/constants.vams > mv ./adms/admsXml/disciplines.vams./adms/admsXml/disciplines.vams.bak > mv > ./src/components/verilog/disciplines.vams./adms/admsXml/disciplines.vams > ./autogen.sh > make > > make finished with no errors, does this mean we can just use our > version of disciplines.vamsand constants.vams? If so I consider the > problem solved, just use our existing disciplines.vams and > constants.vams in place of the ADMS versions. > > Richard > |
From: roucaries b. <rou...@gm...> - 2013-07-23 07:57:24
|
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Richard Crozier <r.c...@ed...> wrote: > On 23/07/2013 07:56, Frans Schreuder wrote: >> >> Hi Richard, >> >> I just built both versions using the adms disciplines and constants and >> the qucs disciplines and constants. Then ran a diff on all generated cpp and >> h files. >> It turns out that all files are equal, diff couldn't find any differences >> so I am quite sure we can replace the two files. >> >> Frans >> > > ok, good, well I say go ahead then, we know where to get the old ones if we > ever need to go back. Good solution for the short term. The longer term we need a clean room implementation in order to look like standard. Even if your solution is free , it will impose that ADMS model are under GPL2+ due to including this two files. Even if it is free it is not really nice to our user. Thanks to keep freeness of qucs > > Richard > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > |
From: roucaries b. <rou...@gm...> - 2013-07-23 14:36:44
|
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Richard Crozier <r.c...@ed...> wrote: > On 23/07/2013 08:57, roucaries bastien wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Richard Crozier <r.c...@ed...> >> wrote: >>> >>> On 23/07/2013 07:56, Frans Schreuder wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Richard, >>>> >>>> I just built both versions using the adms disciplines and constants and >>>> the qucs disciplines and constants. Then ran a diff on all generated cpp >>>> and >>>> h files. >>>> It turns out that all files are equal, diff couldn't find any >>>> differences >>>> so I am quite sure we can replace the two files. >>>> >>>> Frans >>>> >>> ok, good, well I say go ahead then, we know where to get the old ones if >>> we >>> ever need to go back. >> >> Good solution for the short term. The longer term we need a clean room >> implementation in order to look like standard. >> >> Even if your solution is free , it will impose that ADMS model are >> under GPL2+ due to including this two files. Even if it is free it is >> not really nice to our user. >> >> Thanks to keep freeness of qucs >> > > Roucaires, if you are able to organise a clean-room implementation, we will > certainly include it in Qucs. Since we are all familiar with the files none > of us can do it anyway. > > Remember we don't even want to distribute or maintain ADMS, we are just > forced into this. It is not part of Qucs, and we would in fact all much > prefer that it was a separate package developed by someone else. Qucs is > just using the output of another program (ADMS), just as it uses the output > of Bison and Flex to create it's parser. The licence of ADMS therefore does > not have any affect on the licence of Qucs. > > Also, to clarify, the models generated by ADMS are not under GPLv2 or any > other licence. They are simply data output from the program, and as such not > covered by the GPL or any other licence. The GPL covers the program itself, > not the output (consider my Bison and Flex example above). Not true depend on the juridiction. And your example are bad, flex is under BSD2 and bison have: Conditions for Using Bison The distribution terms for Bison-generated parsers permit using the parsers in nonfree programs. Before Bison version 2.2, these extra permissions applied only when Bison was generating LALR(1) parsers in C. And before Bison version 1.24, Bison-generated parsers could be used only in programs that were free software. The other GNU programming tools, such as the GNU C compiler, have never had such a requirement. They could always be used for nonfree software. The reason Bison was different was not due to a special policy decision; it resulted from applying the usual General Public License to all of the Bison source code. The main output of the Bison utility—the Bison parser implementation file—contains a verbatim copy of a sizable piece of Bison, which is the code for the parser's implementation. (The actions from your grammar are inserted into this implementation at one point, but most of the rest of the implementation is not changed.) When we applied the GPL terms to the skeleton code for the parser's implementation, the effect was to restrict the use of Bison output to free software. We didn't change the terms because of sympathy for people who want to make software proprietary. Software should be free. But we concluded that limiting Bison's use to free software was doing little to encourage people to make other software free. So we decided to make the practical conditions for using Bison match the practical conditions for using the other GNU tools. This exception applies when Bison is generating code for a parser. You can tell whether the exception applies to a Bison output file by inspecting the file for text beginning with “As a special exception...”. The text spells out the exact terms of the exception. > > > Richard > > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > |
From: Richard C. <r.c...@ed...> - 2013-07-23 15:12:13
|
>>> Good solution for the short term. The longer term we need a clean room >>> implementation in order to look like standard. >>> >>> Even if your solution is free , it will impose that ADMS model are >>> under GPL2+ due to including this two files. Even if it is free it is >>> not really nice to our user. >>> >>> Thanks to keep freeness of qucs >>> >> Roucaires, if you are able to organise a clean-room implementation, we will >> certainly include it in Qucs. Since we are all familiar with the files none >> of us can do it anyway. >> >> Remember we don't even want to distribute or maintain ADMS, we are just >> forced into this. It is not part of Qucs, and we would in fact all much >> prefer that it was a separate package developed by someone else. Qucs is >> just using the output of another program (ADMS), just as it uses the output >> of Bison and Flex to create it's parser. The licence of ADMS therefore does >> not have any affect on the licence of Qucs. >> >> Also, to clarify, the models generated by ADMS are not under GPLv2 or any >> other licence. They are simply data output from the program, and as such not >> covered by the GPL or any other licence. The GPL covers the program itself, >> not the output (consider my Bison and Flex example above). > Not true depend on the juridiction. > > And your example are bad, flex is under BSD2 and bison have: > Conditions for Using Bison > > Well, maybe the Bison example isn't the best, but in general, data processed by a program retains the original copyright of the input data. Proprietary copyrighted input to Flex for example will not produce BSD copyrighted output. This will certainly be the case with ADMS, i.e. we are now inputting GPLv2 data ( our version of disciplines.vams and constants.vams, and the other Qucs model files ), and what we get out are GPLv2 models suitable for use with Qucs. From the GPL: "Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does.*"* Bison requires an exception because it copies parts of itself to the output. If people out there want to use ADMS to make models using other inputs that is their business, we only distribute ADMS as a convenience because it is not easy to get hold of elsewhere in a suitable form, and we wished to secure it's existence. We are not developing it or maintaining it, I even went to the trouble of adding a configure option --with-adms=external which uses an installed version of ADMS on the local system rather than our bundled version. We now have everything Qucs requires, and it meets the debian requirements as far as I can tell. If other folk out there need ADMS to have a full version of these files, well, that's really up to them, ours is just a fork from the official version we're using for our own narrow purpose, and that purpose is fulfilled with these limited files. If someone out there does a clean room re-engineering of the standard files, I will be happy to vote to incorporate them, but I will not hold up distribution of Qucs while we wait for that to happen, and I personally have neither the interest or skills to help with the process of re-engineering. If the proposed solution, does not now meet the debian requirements could outline exactly how not, or do you agree there is no longer a legal problem for Qucs distribution? Richard |
From: Frans S. <fra...@gm...> - 2013-07-18 14:46:32
|
Dear Richard, That is great news indeed! I did not feel much like rewriting these files. Thank you! Frans On 07/18/2013 04:44 PM, Richard Crozier wrote: > All, > > Good news regarding this, I contacted Accellera and they are updating > the manual regarding the .vams files to state they may be reused > freely. Here is what will be added to start of Annex D containing the > files: > > > -- Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. > -- 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. |
From: Richard C. <r.c...@ed...> - 2013-07-18 14:50:12
|
On 18/07/2013 15:44, Richard Crozier wrote: > -- Copyright(c) 2009-2013 Accellera Systems Initiative Inc. > -- 1370 Trancas Street #163, Napa, CA 94558, USA. > -- -- The material in this Annex is an essential part of the Accellera > Systems Initiative ("Accellera") -- Verilog-AMS Language Standard. > Verbatim copies of the -- material in this Annex may be used and > distributed without restriction. -- All other uses require permission > from Accellera IP Committee (ipr...@li...). -- All > other rights reserved. My email may have eaten some of the above, so there is is again. Richard |