Re: [Plone-developers] Some feedback requested re: on-going Diazo theming micro sprint

[Dylan J. <dj...@pr...>]

On 30/05/2011, at 1:01 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:

>
> On 30/05/2011, at 12:44 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>
>> There is a really interesting discussion on the wordpress ecosystem  
>> especially about the commercial theme sites.
>>
>> http://www.mearo.co.uk/2011/04/the-booming-wordpress-ecosystem/
>>
>> It's early days but I think encouraging paid daizo themes would be  
>> a win for plone. Getting to the point where its worthwhile a design  
>> firm designing diazo themes for money means we need to solve the  
>> hosting problem. Ploud.net is a good start but we need more  
>> options. We need plone everywhere :)
>
> Sorry I think I should spell out my reasoning a little more clearly.
>
> - systems like wordpress are popular first because they are develop  
> accessible. Easy to start, easy to host and cheap to host. Hobbyiest  
> friendly. Most PHP systems have this characteristic due to LAMP  
> hosting and teaching PHP at uni etc.
> - Plone so far has been hard to host so plone solutions accessible  
> mostly to internal IT teams and clients of professional consultants.  
> Plone shared hosting was limited and hard to theme. This has limited  
> the growth of plone.
> - Since most plone sites were being built by professionals for  
> others theming was almost always customised and part of the quoted  
> work. Off the shelf themes are really a small business, hobbyiest  
> market which plone wasn't attractive too on the whole. With few  
> hobbyiests meant no market for commercial off the shelf themes as  
> webcourtier unfortunately seemed to discover (really sad as their  
> themes and site was great).
>
> Anyway, I'm not sure what comes first, off the shelf themes or cheap  
> hosting, there is an opportunity there for a plone/daizo http://themeforest.net 
>  but probably only if ploud.net and other hosting options become  
> really popular. Not sure if others agree with that analysis but  
> that's my thoughts.

Actually Alex, is it possible to upload a diazo zip to http://themeforest.net/category/cms-themes/other 
  ?


>
>>
>> ---
>> Dylan Jay
>> Technical Solutions Manager
>> PretaWeb: reducing duplication in the government web.
>> P: +612 80819071 | M: +61421477460 | twitter.com/djay75 |  
>> linkedin.com/in/djay75
>>
>> On 30/05/2011, at 12:25 PM, Alex Clark wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/29/11 5:20 PM, Laurence Rowe wrote:
>>>> On 29 May 2011 20:49, Alex Clark<ac...@ac...>  wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to get some developer community feedback on some of my  
>>>>> recent
>>>>> efforts:
>>>>>
>>>>> * http://blog.aclark.net/2011/05/27/new-plone-theming-has-arrived/
>>>>> *
>>>>> http://plone.293351.n2.nabble.com/Diazo-theming-mission-tp6397345p6397345.html
>>>>> * http://projects.plone.org/browse/OOTBT-1 (ditto here:
>>>>> https://gist.github.com/995824)
>>>>>
>>>>> The general idea is to promote creation and distribution and  
>>>>> consumption
>>>>> of Diazo themes, via zip files.
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAICT, some folks are already excited about this. I expect some  
>>>>> more
>>>>> folks to get excited when the results of the sprint are  
>>>>> delivered: 12
>>>>> themes. Two of the new themes have been installed via zip file  
>>>>> here:
>>>>>
>>>>> * http://aclark.ploud.net/
>>>>> * http://aclark2.ploud.net/
>>>>>
>>>>> This is exciting stuff. However, the Diazo authors expressed a few
>>>>> concerns about[1]:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Including a zip file in the Python package, which I have  
>>>>> conceded was
>>>>> a bad idea (even though I don't really think it was). We're now  
>>>>> going to
>>>>> upload zips "by hand" to plone.org
>>>>>
>>>>> * Any other negative repercussions from these efforts e.g. "bad  
>>>>> things"
>>>>> catching on and stalling progress of adoption.
>>>>>
>>>>> My feeling is that Diazo technology is already so rock solid,  
>>>>> that the
>>>>> zip files will speak for themselves (and that Python packages will
>>>>> become an afterthought for themers but still be used by  
>>>>> developers).
>>>>>
>>>>> Any other thoughts by anyone? How is this being perceived on the
>>>>> outside? What are your thoughts on the best way to develop,  
>>>>> promote,
>>>>> distribute, deploy this new&  exciting technology?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your comments,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] I originally popped in to #plone-framework to ask about the  
>>>>> use of
>>>>> the plonetheme.* package namespace because some folks had  
>>>>> expressed some
>>>>> concern about that namespace potentially being reserved for "old  
>>>>> style"
>>>>> themes. IIUC there was no concern about that, but rather that  
>>>>> Python
>>>>> packaging was being used at all, over zip files (which is not  
>>>>> entirely
>>>>> the case, as I've tried to explain). However unless I am  
>>>>> mistaken, how
>>>>> to distribute Diazo themes in Python packages is explained in  
>>>>> detail
>>>>> here, in the p.a.theming documentation:
>>>>> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/plone.app.theming/1.0b5#packaging-themes 
>>>>> . So
>>>>> I think it's reasonable at least to expect some folks (i.e.  
>>>>> developers)
>>>>> will latch on to that. The challenge is, I guess, to make it  
>>>>> clear it's
>>>>> not a strict requirement anymore.
>>>>
>>>> First of all I'd like to thank Alex for his efforts here, it's  
>>>> really
>>>> great to see all these new themes using Diazo / plone.app.theming.
>>>
>>> My pleasure. TTW zip file import of themes is easily the single most
>>> exciting "new" thing I've seen come along in 7+ years of Plone
>>> development. Many kudos, and thanks to you and Martin & the team.
>>>
>>>> After talking with Alex on irc I made some points in this blog  
>>>> post:
>>>> http://shuttlethread.com/blog/distributing-diazo-themes-for- 
>>>> plone, so
>>>> I won't repeat that here.
>>>
>>> I think we are in violent agreement wrt to: zip files are the most
>>> exciting feature, but we disagree on the best way to create,  
>>> distribute,
>>> promote, and deploy them.
>>>
>>> IMHO, there are currently as many (if not more) disadvantages to  
>>> using
>>> the add-on products section of plone.org TTW, than there are  
>>> advantages
>>> to using it listed in your blog entry:
>>>
>>> - Every new software project must be manually approved.
>>> - In order to upload a zip, you must:
>>> - Create a project (wait for it to be approved).
>>> - Create a release object inside the releases folder.
>>> - Upload a zip (i.e. create a file object inside the release  
>>> folder).
>>> - Publish the whole mess.
>>> - Manually append /reindexObject to the release file object, or  
>>> wait for
>>> the cache to clear.
>>>
>>> E.g. http://plone.org/products/test-diazo-theme
>>>
>>> Regardless, I still think it is a perfectly reasonable way to  
>>> distribute
>>> zips for folks that are inclined to do it that way.
>>>
>>> However, that list of folks does not include me. Because it is now
>>> relatively easy for developers to deploy Python packages to PSC,
>>> (something we fought long and hard for [1]) I'm inclined to  
>>> include my
>>> diazo themes in Python packages. This has advantages like:
>>>
>>> - Auto-creation of 3 layers deep of Plone content.
>>> - Room for growth if my simple Diazo theme becomes complex (i.e.  
>>> diazo
>>> themes typically start off with just static resources, template, and
>>> rules. Then jbot templates and GS profile step customizations may be
>>> added, as you mentioned "for clients".)
>>> - One click deployment to both plone.org and PyPI (via  
>>> jarn.mkrelease)
>>>
>>> To make my life easier, and possibly others lives easier, I had
>>> originally suggested that we include the zipped themes in the  
>>> packages
>>> as package data, and have PSC "find" them, then create a  
>>> "downloadable
>>> file" object automatically based on a check for that package data.
>>>
>>> But until that happens (and it may never happen, if no one besides  
>>> me
>>> thinks it's a good idea) I'll create "mine" by hand as we  
>>> discussed on
>>> irc e.g.:
>>>
>>> -
>>> http://plone.org/products/plonetheme.earthlingtwo/releases/0.1/earthlingtwo.zip
>>> -
>>> http://plone.org/products/plonetheme.flowerbuds/releases/1.0/flowerbuds.zip
>>> -
>>> http://plone.org/products/plonetheme.unilluminated/releases/0.1.1/unilluminated.zip
>>>
>>> I think that gets us closer to being on the same page.
>>>
>>>
>>> I will respond to the points in the
>>>> footnote.
>>>>
>>>> What sort of packaging is appropriate depends very much on the  
>>>> theme,
>>>> several options are supported by plone.app.theming /  
>>>> plone.resource,
>>>> but I think it boils down to a simple question: Is there any python
>>>> code to package up to accompany the theme itself?
>>>>
>>>> For most open source themes I think the answer will normally be  
>>>> no -
>>>> there are no extra views or generic setup profiles to include. But
>>>> when creating a theme as part of a client project, that theme will
>>>> likely be intimately tied up with the custom content types, views  
>>>> and
>>>> GS profiles developed along side. In these cases it makes no  
>>>> sense to
>>>> package the theme separately from the site's python code, so we
>>>> support registering a directory in an egg as a theme.
>>>>
>>>> I guess we need to emphasise this more in the plone.app.theming
>>>> documentation, it is currently quite easy to miss the zip file
>>>> distribution instructions as there really isn't much to explain!
>>>
>>> Indeed, I would suggest heavily emphasizing zip file creation, and
>>> perhaps even more importantly zip file creation development: What  
>>> is the
>>> best practice for starting to develop a zip file theme? (I  
>>> actually have
>>> no idea how to do this. I develop my themes in packages in part  
>>> because
>>> it's currently the only way i know how to do it.)
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] although its relevance has been questioned lately in the  
>>> context of
>>> PyPI.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Laurence
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Alex Clark · http://aclark.net
>>>
>>>
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>>
>