plib-users

Re: [Plib-users] Racing Car Simulator using PLIB

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Eric Espie wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have done a racing car simulator under OpenGL
> and I currently use PLIB for the sound.
> 
> I have planned to use PLIB for the GUI, fonts
> and scenery in a near future.
> 
> You can have a look here :
> 
> http://sourceforge.net/project/?group_id=3777

Wow!   Nice project.  Really cool car models too.

-- 
Steve Baker                  http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
sjb...@ai... (home)  http://www.woodsoup.org/~sbaker
sj...@ht...      (work)

[Plib-users] Fwd: ASE file format

[Horacio S. <Ry...@Me...>]

I have some .ase files, and as far as i understand it has everything i need to
make Scenes, animations, special effects, particles etc.......

But i can't  find out the meaning of all the tags, i
wonder if anyone nows where to get more info. I don't have a copy of 3D Max
Studio so i can't get my hands in the SDK ase importer/exporter..  I read the
Nate's ase loader but i only reads one object from the file. I also got  the 
ase loader from United Bytes posted in gamedev.net but it doesn¡t support
animations, i think.

Please anyone with more info about ASE file format, and how to use it  with
OpenGL and Plib. I¡m willing to write a full featured ase loader.
-------------------------------------------------------

[Plib-users] ASE file format

[Horacio S. <Ry...@Me...>]

	

I have some .ase files, and as far as i understand it has everything i need to
make Scenes, animations, special effects, particles etc.......

But i can't  find out the meaning of all the tags, i wonder if anyone nows
where to get more info. I don't have a copy of 3D Max Studio so i can't get my
hands in the SDK ase importer/exporter..  I read the Nate's ase loader but i
only reads one object from the file. I also got  the  ase loader from United
Bytes posted in gamedev.net but it doesn¡t support animations, i think.

Please anyone with more info about ASE file format, and how to use it  with
OpenGL and Plib. I¡m willing to write a full featured ase loader.

[Plib-users] Racing Car Simulator using PLIB

[Eric E. <to...@fr...>]

Hi,

I have done a racing car simulator under OpenGL
and I currently use PLIB for the sound.

I have planned to use PLIB for the GUI, fonts
and scenery in a near future.

You can have a look here :

http://sourceforge.net/project/?group_id=3777


Eric Espie.

[Fwd: [Plib-users] Texture with transparency]

[Michael W. <michael.wessels@z.zgs.de>]

Correction :
The code works well, if a dont use transparent = true .

[Plib-users] Texture with transparency

[Michael W. <michael.wessels@z.zgs.de>]

Hi all,

I am using the following code to load a bmp-image with ssgTexture.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 // Load of a BMP-Image with the Library PLIB
    GLuint FDS_Load_Image_BMP(char *filename,GLuint tex_obj, bool
transparent)
 {
 unsigned int i;
 int t_r,t_g,t_b,t_a;
 IMAGE_BMP bmp ;
    size_t npixels;
 GLuint tex_handle, map_level ;
    tex_list = new ssgTexture ( filename ) ;
    tex_handle = tex_list->getHandle();
 if(transparent)
 {
  map_level = 7 ;
 glBindTexture(GL_TEXTURE_2D,tex_handle);
 glGetTexLevelParameteriv(GL_TEXTURE_2D,map_level,GL_TEXTURE_WIDTH,&bmp.width);

 glGetTexLevelParameteriv(GL_TEXTURE_2D,map_level,GL_TEXTURE_HEIGHT,&bmp.height);

 glGetTexLevelParameteriv(GL_TEXTURE_2D,map_level,GL_TEXTURE_COMPONENTS,&bmp.components);

 npixels = bmp.width * bmp.height ;
    bmp.raster = (uint32*) _TIFFmalloc(npixels * sizeof (uint32));
 glGetTexImage(GL_TEXTURE_2D,map_level,GL_RGBA,GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE,&bmp.raster);

    for (i = 0; i < npixels; i++)
    {
      unsigned char *cp =  (unsigned char *) &bmp.raster[i];

      t_r = cp[0];
      t_g = cp[1];
      t_b = cp[2];
      t_a = cp[3];
   if((t_r==0)&&(t_g==0)&&(t_b==0))
   {
    cp[3]=0;
   } else
   {
    cp[3]=255 ;
   }
   }
 glBindTexture(GL_TEXTURE_2D,tex_obj);
   glTexImage2D(GL_TEXTURE_2D,0,4,bmp.width,bmp.height,
               0,GL_RGBA,GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE,bmp.raster);
   tex_handle = tex_obj ;
 }
 return tex_handle ;
 }
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The code works well, if a dont use transparent = false .
I know that the images are put in SSG to a texture with using mipmaps.
My understandig is, that I can get the image-raster using map_level = 0
 glGetTexImage(GL_TEXTURE_2D,map_level,GL_RGB,GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE,&bmp.raster);

. In this case the texture is completley transparent. The original
bitmap has dimensions of 128*256. With map_level 6 I get a small stripe
with two different colors in width direction.

Has anybody an idea what I am making wrong ?

With regards

Michael

RE: [Plib-users] now i can see the light!!!

[Dave M. <dp...@ef...>]

> So i ask now about keyframe generation......  i wonder if the ASE
> file format has keyfrme information.. I have actualy two simple ASE models
> and there is always at the begining some FRAME information like:

ase supports both keyframe and mesh animation.

mesh animation is good for things like bending and deformation.
you can get things to look blobby and organic if they squish and bend.
keyframe animation is good for position,rotation,and scaling paths.
an example of keyframe would be to open a trap door or move a turtle
back and forth across the road.

in ase, look for xxxx_SAMPLE for keyframes and MESH_ANIMATION for the
mesh animation.  when you export ASE, make sure to checkbox the options
to give you animation.  i always use "force sample every frame"

the keyframe samples give you a "time" value which can be turned into a
frame # by dividing by SCENE_TICKSPERFRAME.

i've planned to add ASE animation support to PLIB but i was overly busy
last week.

> Another think about ASE file format, is that it divides the
> objects in NODES, i think i can use this to create an SSG tree,
> but i dont know if the ASE format
> stores hierachical information, thinks like parents an childs  etc.......

GEOMOBJECT is the ASE structure that defines an object.  the NODE
term refers to any node in the MAX scene which could be a light, camera,
mesh, etc.  the hierarchical info is in there too like PARENT links.

i've worked on several commericial games using ASE and it truly rocks
the best source of info is the actual source code for the ASE import and
export which can be found in the SDK folder on the MAX CDROM.

> ... cameras ...

i like your camera ideas and they should work well
for movement you should also consider a smart camera that can
track the player.  ie: turn with inertia when the player turns,
pull back when the player increases movement speed, zoom in when
the player slows down.  in some games there are several different
camera "modes" you can choose from to watch the action.

all the best,
--Dave McClurg

Re: [Plib-users] now i can see the light!!!

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Horacio Sanson wrote:

> So i ask now about keyframe generation......  i wonder if the ASE file format
> has keyfrme information.. I have actualy two simple ASE models and there is
> always at the begining some FRAME information like:

I don't know anything about ASE files - so I can't comment on that.
 

> Now touching again the camera subject, i was thinking to use rails to move the
> camera. I mean, imagine and scene, let say a maze. In the maze there is an
> invisible rail, like a train rail, so the camera can only be where this rail
> line is. There will be an elastic, invisible rope betewn the camera and the
> player, when the player moves, the camera will follow without getting away from
> the rail line.

I think that for some sorts of games (or perhaps for some situations in
some sorts of games), this is a great idea.

For games like my own Tux_AQFH, it wouldn't work at all because most of the
action takes place in wide open spaces where Tux can go anywhere - perhaps
fly, certainly swim underwater.  The camera needs to be able to go anywhere
in a 3D volume...which is my problem.

For games like Heretic or Quake though where the action mostly takes place
in fairly confined spaces, I think the idea of a 'sliding rail' to keep the
camera in controlled places is a great one.

Perhaps in a game like Tux, I could have both - so that when the player is
more than a certain distance from the nearest rail, it does what it does
now - and 'latches on' to the nearest rail when one comes close enough.

> But wait, thats not all............   i also have an special camera for
> .special effects, for example the player performs and especial attack that has
> some exellent animation, but with the rail system i will allways see the
> animation from behaind the player, so each "action", has a camera rail
> predefined, so when i perform the "action" the camera moves in that rail line
> so the animation can be aprecciated. Have you seen those animes where the hero
> performs the super attack and the camera rotates arround him, while performing
> an amazing animation move with stunning music??? well thats the idea.

I'm not so sure about that.  When the player is controlling the action, it's
very distracting to have unwanted camera motion.  It makes it almost impossible
to play the game accurately.

In so-called "cut scenes" where the computer takes over to move the action
on to the next level or something, then pre-scripting EVERYTHING (including
the camera) makes a lot of sense - and you can do cool cinematographic
effects like zooming in and stuff like that.
 
> note: excuse my english, it's not my native language.

No need to apologise - your English is at least as good as some native
English speakers I get posts from.

> When i say rail lines i
> refer to a predefined path that the camera it's limited to, like a train is
> limited to the rail road. The motion is done by the player pulling the camera
> with the flexible rope as a wagons is pulled by the train. I say flexible rope
> because it must have some degree of freedom, say a MAX that determine how far
> the camera can be from the player and a MIN that determine how close the camera
> can be of the player.

Yep - I understand completely.

-- 
Steve Baker                  http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
sjb...@ai... (home)  http://www.woodsoup.org/~sbaker
sj...@ht...      (work)

[Plib-users] now i can see the light!!!

[Horacio S. <Ry...@Me...>]

	
Well now i think i'm understandig how ti animations are made.  thanks for the
links!!!!  Know i understand that i don't need to make all those frames.

So i ask now about keyframe generation......  i wonder if the ASE file format
has keyfrme information.. I have actualy two simple ASE models and there is
always at the begining some FRAME information like:

*3DSMAX_ASCIIEXPORT 200
*COMMENT "cube.ase."
*COMMENT ""
*SCENE {
  *SCENE_FILENAME ""

**********************************************
** Here start the frame information ???  **
**********************************************

  *SCENE_FIRSTFRAME 0                                  
  *SCENE_LASTFRAME 100   
  *SCENE_FRAMESPEED 30   
  *SCENE_TICKSPERFRAME 160
**********************************************
** Here it end's   Can i use this????    **
**********************************************

  *SCENE_BACKGROUND_STATIC 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
  *SCENE_AMBIENT_STATIC 0.0431 0.0431 0.0431
}
*GEOMOBJECT {
  *NODE_NAME "Object01"
  *NODE_TM {
    *NODE_NAME "Object01"
    *INHERIT_POS 0 0 0
    *INHERIT_ROT 0 0 0
    *INHERIT_SCL 0 0 0



Another think about ASE file format, is that it divides the objects in NODES, i
think i can use this to create an SSG tree, but i dont know if the ASE format
stores hierachical information, thinks like parents an childs  etc.......


Now touching again the camera subject, i was thinking to use rails to move the
camera. I mean, imagine and scene, let say a maze. In the maze there is an
invisible rail, like a train rail, so the camera can only be where this rail
line is. There will be an elastic, invisible rope betewn the camera and the
player, when the player moves, the camera will follow without getting away from
the rail line. 

This way the camera can't behave strangely in any situacion, then we can thing
in rails with multiple paths, so the camera randomly choses a path when the
player pass that way, and since the rails are predefined, thers no way the
camera can get out o focus, or get stuck in a wall etc.

But wait, thats not all............   i also have an special camera for
.special effects, for example the player performs and especial attack that has
some exellent animation, but with the rail system i will allways see the
animation from behaind the player, so each "action", has a camera rail
predefined, so when i perform the "action" the camera moves in that rail line
so the animation can be aprecciated. Have you seen those animes where the hero
performs the super attack and the camera rotates arround him, while performing
an amazing animation move with stunning music??? well thats the idea.

With the "action" cameras it's also possible to have  several predefined
rails , so a random path is chosen allowing a better gameplay. 


so...........  any comments???


note: excuse my english, it's not my native language. When i say rail lines i
refer to a predefined path that the camera it's limited to, like a train is
limited to the rail road. The motion is done by the player pulling the camera
with the flexible rope as a wagons is pulled by the train. I say flexible rope
because it must have some degree of freedom, say a MAX that determine how far
the camera can be from the player and a MIN that determine how close the camera
can be of the player.

[Plib-users] Fwd: now i can see the light!!!

[Horacio S. <Ry...@Me...>]

Well now i think i'm understandig how  animations are made.  thanks for the
links!!!!  now i understand that i don't need to make all those memory
hungry frames.

So i ask now about keyframe generation......  i wonder if the ASE file format
has keyfrme information.. I have actualy two simple ASE models and there is
always at the begining some FRAME information like:

*3DSMAX_ASCIIEXPORT 200
*COMMENT "cube.ase."
*COMMENT ""
*SCENE {
  *SCENE_FILENAME ""

**********************************************
** Here start the frame information ???  **
**********************************************

  *SCENE_FIRSTFRAME 0                                  
  *SCENE_LASTFRAME 100   
  *SCENE_FRAMESPEED 30   
  *SCENE_TICKSPERFRAME 160
**********************************************
** Here it end's   Can i use this????    **
**********************************************

  *SCENE_BACKGROUND_STATIC 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
  *SCENE_AMBIENT_STATIC 0.0431 0.0431 0.0431
}
*GEOMOBJECT {
  *NODE_NAME "Object01"
  *NODE_TM {
    *NODE_NAME "Object01"
    *INHERIT_POS 0 0 0
    *INHERIT_ROT 0 0 0
    *INHERIT_SCL 0 0 0



Another think about ASE file format, is that it divides the objects in NODES, i
think i can use this to create an SSG tree, but i dont know if the ASE format
stores hierarchical information, things like parents an childs  etc.......


Now touching again the camera subject, i was thinking to use rails to move the
camera. I mean, imagine and scene, let say a maze. In the maze there is an
invisible rail, like a train rail, so the camera can only be where this rail
line is. There will be an elastic, invisible rope betewn the camera and the
player, when the player moves, the camera will follow without getting away from
the rail line. 

This way the camera can't behave strangely in any situacion, then we can thing
in rails with multiple paths, so the camera randomly choses a path when the
player pass that way, and since the rails are predefined, thers no way the
camera can get out o focus, or get stuck in a wall etc.

But wait, thats not all............   i also have an special camera for
.special effects, for example the player performs and especial attack that has
some exellent animation, but with the rail system i will allways see the
animation from behaind the player, so each "action", has a camera rail
predefined, so when i perform the "action" the camera moves in that rail line
so the animation can be aprecciated. Have you seen those animes where the hero
performs the super attack and the camera rotates arround him, while performing
an amazing animation move with stunning music??? well thats the idea.

With the "action" cameras it's also possible to have  several predefined
rails , so a random path is chosen allowing a better gameplay. 


so...........  any comments???


note: excuse my english, it's not my native language. When i say rail lines i
refer to a predefined path that the camera it's limited to, like a train is
limited to the rail road. The motion is done by the player pulling the camera
with the flexible rope as a wagons is pulled by the train. I say flexible rope
because it must have some degree of freedom, say a MAX that determine how far
the camera can be from the player and a MIN that determine how close the camera
can be of the player.
-------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Plib-users] Vertex lists

[David W. <wri...@vt...>]

I saw just recently that loki has been working on it and they have released
at least a preliminary implementation.Check it out at www.openal.org

David Wrighton

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Mayer" <Va...@t-...>
To: <pli...@li...>
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Plib-users] Vertex lists


> Steve Baker wrote:
> >
> > The most obvious example of an ssgEntity that doesn't have a vertex
> > list is an ssgBranch - but I've been thinking of creating a node type
> > that uses OpenAL to do spatialised 3D audio in an SSG scene graph for
> > example.
>
> As you are mentioning OpenAL: What's the relation between OpenAL and SL?
>
> Wasn't it that the OpenAL people were only discussing and not
> programming so that Steve decided to write his own lib? But I might be
> totally wrong about this...
>
> CU,
> Christian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> plib-users mailing list
> pli...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/plib-users

Re: [Plib-users] Vertex lists

[<Va...@t-...>]

Steve Baker wrote:
> 
> The most obvious example of an ssgEntity that doesn't have a vertex
> list is an ssgBranch - but I've been thinking of creating a node type
> that uses OpenAL to do spatialised 3D audio in an SSG scene graph for
> example.

As you are mentioning OpenAL: What's the relation between OpenAL and SL?

Wasn't it that the OpenAL people were only discussing and not
programming so that Steve decided to write his own lib? But I might be
totally wrong about this...

CU,
Christian

[Plib-users] Racing car simulator using OpenGL and PLIB

[Eric E. <to...@fr...>]

Hello all,

As I saw some posts about racing car simulators in this list,
I thought it could interrest some people to know that
I have just released a racing car simulator on sourceforge.
I used PLIB for the sound and I have planned to use PLIB for
the GUI (instead of mine), scenery (not existing yet outside the
track) and fonts (to replace gltt very slow) and use OpenAL for
sound when the Doppler effect will be operative.

The graphic part is rather poor because I focused on the simulation
part.

you can get it here: http://sourceforge.net/project/?group_id=3777

Be careful to follow the installation notes, it is not so easy
to have it work...

I hope that it can contribute to the open source spirit.

Eric Espie.

Re: [Plib-users] Vertex lists

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Norman Vine wrote:
> 
> vampman writes:
> >
> >How can get access to the vertex list from a ssgEntity?
> >
> 
> ssgEntity *entity;
> 
> if (entity->isAKindOf(ssgTypeLeaf()))
> {
>     float *vertexList = ((ssgLeaf)entity)->getVertex(0);
> }
> 
> You probably would be better off testing for ssgTypeVtxTable() ect
> but you should see the idea :)

Just to clarify, you really can't get a vertex list from an ssgEntity,
some ssgEntities are not geometric objects at all.

The most obvious example of an ssgEntity that doesn't have a vertex
list is an ssgBranch - but I've been thinking of creating a node type
that uses OpenAL to do spatialised 3D audio in an SSG scene graph for
example.

First you have to have an ssgLeaf of some kind.  Norman's code
(above) checks that first - which is good.

-- 
Steve Baker                  http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
sjb...@ai... (home)  http://www.woodsoup.org/~sbaker
sj...@ht...      (work)

RE: [Plib-users] Vertex lists

[Norman V. <nh...@ca...>]

vampman writes:
>
>How can get access to the vertex list from a ssgEntity?
>

ssgEntity *entity;

if (entity->isAKindOf(ssgTypeLeaf()))
{
    float *vertexList = ((ssgLeaf)entity)->getVertex(0);
}

You probably would be better off testing for ssgTypeVtxTable() ect
but you should see the idea :)

Norman

[Plib-users] Vertex lists

[vampman <va...@gt...>]

How can get access to the vertex list from a ssgEntity?

Re: [Plib-users] how do i???

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

horacio wrote:
> 
> Ok, is there any source of information about this terms you use in the
> answer:
> 
>    1)  simple rigid model articulation
>    2)  vertex weights
>    3)  bones, joints, etc....    sort of IK??

Well, I'm sure there are better references - but one I know off the
top of my head is the Carniverous Hexapod FAQ:

  ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/he/hexapod/charanimfaq.html

...check the parent document for other interesting FAQ's:

  ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/he/hexapod/index.html

...but I'm sure you could do better at one of the game developer
sites.

> has anybody played Tenchu for PlayStation, or Dead or Alive????   how those
> graphics and animations are done???? later if i go on, i will ask how the
> camera is moved???  it seems that the camera is alive.

Moving the camera is a serious pain in Tux - I'd be interested to
discuss good ways to do it.  I'm still learning this stuff.

> I have a lot to learn.......

It never gets any better.  :-)

-- 
Steve Baker                  http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
sjb...@ai... (home)  http://www.woodsoup.org/~sbaker
sj...@ht...      (work)

RE: [Plib-users] how do i???

[horacio <hs...@ca...>]

Ok, is there any source of information about this terms you use in the
answer:

   1)  simple rigid model articulation
   2)  vertex weights
   3)  bones, joints, etc....    sort of IK??

has anybody played Tenchu for PlayStation, or Dead or Alive????   how those
graphics and animations are done???? later if i go on, i will ask how the
camera is moved???  it seems that the camera is alive.

I have a lot to learn.......
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...>
To: <pli...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Plib-users] how do i???


> Horacio Sanson wrote:
>
> > How do i animate the entities in my game???  this is all theorical since
i
> > haven't write a line of code. This is the situacion: i have a player
that has a
> > lot of movements, he can walk, run, jump, duck etc. he also has a weapon
like a
> > sword, he can attack, defend, attack while jumping, dash, and has
special
> > attacks etc.
>
> Well, modelling every step of motion from every position to every other
position
> will be VERY tedious.  At 60 frames per second, you'd need to build 60
models
> to get a one second move from (say) walking to (say) starting to jump,
another
> 60 models for going from walking to fighting....this is going to balloon
to
> unreasonable proportions pretty fast.
>
> What's needed is to model the character as a set of limbs with joints.
>
> The *simple* way to do it is to have each part of the guy's arms, legs
> body and neck modelled as a separate object - with transforms modelled
> for each joint.
>
> You can then store 'key frames' for the endpoints of various motions
> as sets of rotations and translations for each body part.  You can
> interpolate the angles to get all the inbetween positions.
>
> This allows the player to go from partway through a walk sequence with
> (say) reaching forward with his right leg while his left foot is on the
> floor...to having both feet on the floor with knees bent ready for a
> jump.  The storage for this is compact and the inbetweening code isn't
> too hard.
>
> That's essentially how Tux_AQFH models Tux and Gown.
>
> However, modelling (say) the forearm as one rigid polygonal model and
> the upper arm as another makes it very hard to make the elbow joint
> look convincing.
>
> Many modern commercial games adopt a technique called 'bones' where
> those joint transforms control an imaginary bone inside the forearm
> and another inside the upper arm.  Each vertex in the 'skin' of the
> model is then weighted according to how close it is to each bone.
> (sortof)...hence, a vertex halfway along the forearm would be positioned
> using only the forearm bone.  A vertex that's just a couple of inches
> from the elbow joint would use (say) 50% of the position it would have
> if it were transformed by the forearm and 50% of the position it would
> have if transformed by the upper arm's transform.
>
> PLIB doesn't directly support this stuff yet...but it's certainly
something
> I'd like to play with if only I had the time.
>
> However, I've promised myself that I won't add major new PLIB or Tux
> features until PPE is a bit more complete.  I'd need PPE to position
> the bones and set the vertex weights anyway - so that's the logical
> order of implementation.
>
>
> > My first idea is to make all the frames of the model in all positions
and then
> > draw all the frames in secuence depending of the action required. Since
the
> > player has so much movements it will take a lot of time but it's
posible.
>
> Not really.
>
> > But........  the player also has the ability to change weapons and
armors,
> > helmet, boots etc.. so the problem is if i have to make a model of the
player
> > with  each armor, weapon and make all the frames for each weapon,
armor???
>
> Exactly.
>
> > if i have a model of a player and diferent model of swords, and i
> > make the sword model child of the players hand model, the sword will
follow the
> > players hand whenever it moves???.
>
> Yes - that WILL work because a sword is a rigid object.
>
> Doing that with (say) a shirt would be MUCH harder though.
>
> > I have seen a lot of games, RPG at most, and i don't see much changes in
the
> > players look..... so i think what i want is not possible.  Any ideas
please
> > tell me.  I know this has nothing to do with PLIB, but i'm willing to
use PLIB
> > to do this, if it is possible.
>
> I think it's possible - and it certainly does have to do with PLIB - but
the
> needed code for the skin+bones approach does not yet exist.
>
> Using simple rigid model articulation is much easier and can indeed be
> done with PLIB off-the-shelf.
>
> --
> Steve Baker                  http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
> sjb...@ai... (home)  http://www.woodsoup.org/~sbaker
> sj...@ht...      (work)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> plib-users mailing list
> pli...@li...
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Re: [Plib-users] how do i???

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Horacio Sanson wrote:

> How do i animate the entities in my game???  this is all theorical since i
> haven't write a line of code. This is the situacion: i have a player that has a
> lot of movements, he can walk, run, jump, duck etc. he also has a weapon like a
> sword, he can attack, defend, attack while jumping, dash, and has special
> attacks etc.

Well, modelling every step of motion from every position to every other position
will be VERY tedious.  At 60 frames per second, you'd need to build 60 models
to get a one second move from (say) walking to (say) starting to jump, another
60 models for going from walking to fighting....this is going to balloon to
unreasonable proportions pretty fast.

What's needed is to model the character as a set of limbs with joints.

The *simple* way to do it is to have each part of the guy's arms, legs
body and neck modelled as a separate object - with transforms modelled
for each joint.

You can then store 'key frames' for the endpoints of various motions
as sets of rotations and translations for each body part.  You can
interpolate the angles to get all the inbetween positions.

This allows the player to go from partway through a walk sequence with
(say) reaching forward with his right leg while his left foot is on the
floor...to having both feet on the floor with knees bent ready for a
jump.  The storage for this is compact and the inbetweening code isn't
too hard.

That's essentially how Tux_AQFH models Tux and Gown.

However, modelling (say) the forearm as one rigid polygonal model and
the upper arm as another makes it very hard to make the elbow joint
look convincing.

Many modern commercial games adopt a technique called 'bones' where
those joint transforms control an imaginary bone inside the forearm
and another inside the upper arm.  Each vertex in the 'skin' of the
model is then weighted according to how close it is to each bone.
(sortof)...hence, a vertex halfway along the forearm would be positioned
using only the forearm bone.  A vertex that's just a couple of inches
from the elbow joint would use (say) 50% of the position it would have
if it were transformed by the forearm and 50% of the position it would
have if transformed by the upper arm's transform.

PLIB doesn't directly support this stuff yet...but it's certainly something
I'd like to play with if only I had the time.

However, I've promised myself that I won't add major new PLIB or Tux
features until PPE is a bit more complete.  I'd need PPE to position
the bones and set the vertex weights anyway - so that's the logical
order of implementation.


> My first idea is to make all the frames of the model in all positions and then
> draw all the frames in secuence depending of the action required. Since the
> player has so much movements it will take a lot of time but it's posible.

Not really.

> But........  the player also has the ability to change weapons and armors,
> helmet, boots etc.. so the problem is if i have to make a model of the player
> with  each armor, weapon and make all the frames for each weapon, armor???

Exactly.
 
> if i have a model of a player and diferent model of swords, and i
> make the sword model child of the players hand model, the sword will follow the
> players hand whenever it moves???.

Yes - that WILL work because a sword is a rigid object.

Doing that with (say) a shirt would be MUCH harder though.
 
> I have seen a lot of games, RPG at most, and i don't see much changes in the
> players look..... so i think what i want is not possible.  Any ideas please
> tell me.  I know this has nothing to do with PLIB, but i'm willing to use PLIB
> to do this, if it is possible.

I think it's possible - and it certainly does have to do with PLIB - but the
needed code for the skin+bones approach does not yet exist.

Using simple rigid model articulation is much easier and can indeed be
done with PLIB off-the-shelf.

-- 
Steve Baker                  http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
sjb...@ai... (home)  http://www.woodsoup.org/~sbaker
sj...@ht...      (work)

Re: [Plib-users] how do i???

[Land T. S. <lan...@am...>]

Hello Horacio,


> I have seen a lot of games, RPG at most, and i don't see much changes in the
> players look..... so i think what i want is not possible.  Any ideas please
> tell me.  I know this has nothing to do with PLIB, but i'm willing to use PLIB
> to do this, if it is possible.

I know this isn't going to be much of a helpful answer, but yes it is possible.  A
common way seems to be the parent-child relationship.  The hand is the parent of the
Gauntlet/Sword.

You could use a full skeletal structure to represent the player and do mesh
deformations (no, I have noooo idea how to do this =).  You could also record all the
movements of your players as individual meshes and just position the Sword/Gauntlet
according to the position of a specific vertex in the player mesh (parent-child).

--
+-------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| Landshark (dave)        | Visio clone for *nix? It's in the works:   |
| lan...@am... | http://queesio.sourceforge.net             |
+-------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| X10 GUI Device Controller for *nix? http://q10.phlan.net             |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

[Plib-users] how much time and effort it takes???

[Horacio S. <Ry...@Me...>]

	
Hi..

I've been around for a while quitely, but i have been studing a lot about 3D
graphics  and games. I read the OpenGL red book, the Nate and Nehe tutorials,
the gtc, plib and crystal space documentation and source and still don't know
how to start a game.........  maybe this is not for me, but i won't quit.

I've a lot of questions and here comes a big one....:

How do i animate the entities in my game???  this is all theorical since i
haven't write a line of code. This is the situacion:  have a player and this
player has a lot of movements, he can walk, run, jump, duck etc. he also has a
weapon like a sword, he can attack, defend, attack while jumping, dash, and has
special attacks etc.

My first idea is to make all the frames of the model in all positions, this
takes a lot of work. and then draw all the frames in secuence. Since the player
has so much movements it will take a lot of time but it's posible. But........ 
the player also has the ability to change weapons and armors, helmet, boots
etc.. so the problem is if i have to make a model of the player with  each
armor, weapon and make all the frames for each weapon, armor???

if i have a model of a player in ACE format and diferent model of swords, and i
make on sword child of the player model, the sword will follow the players hand
whenever it moves???. For example, the player model is standing with his hand
extended to his left and the sword in his hand.  


         +  ->   head   model
         -  ->   hand   model
         |   ->   body   model
         s  ->   sword  model    
 
                               s
                 +++         s                                   +++  
                 +  +         s                                   +  +     
                 +++         s                                   +++        
                   |          s s s                                  |         
                   | ----- s                                     |--          
                   |            s                                     |    \   
                   |                                 	          |      \ s  
                   |                                                  |    s  s  s
                   |                                                  |      s                                                                     
                                                                          s    
                                                                        s     
                                                                      s


                standing                                       attack1


I have a model for the head, another for the arms, another for the body and for
the sword. Then i have a secuence of frames of the attack movement. The
question in a simple way is if i have to make the secuence of frames for all
posible combination of body, arm, head, weapon????  i know there must be other
way.  If i move the arm as shown in the ascii art below, will the sword make
the movement described in the ascii art?? or it will follow the hand all the
time with the cutting edge pointing up??? i mean, will the sword rotate with
the hand???

I have seen a lot of games, RPG at most, and i don't see much changes in the
players look..... so i think what i want is not possible.  Any ideas please
tell me.  I know this has nothing to do with PLIB, but i'm willing to use PLIB
to do this, if it is possible.

[Plib-users] how do i???

[Horacio S. <Ry...@Me...>]

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
Subject: how much time and effort it takes???
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:50:30 -0500
From: Horacio Sanson <Ryujin@Melissa.LoRdZ>


Hi..

I've been around for a while quitely, but i have been studing a lot about 3D
graphics  and games. I read the OpenGL red book, the Nate and Nehe tutorials,
the gtc, plib and crystal space documentation and source and still don't know
how to start a game.........  maybe this is not for me, but i won't quit.

I've a lot of questions and here comes a big one....:

How do i animate the entities in my game???  this is all theorical since i
haven't write a line of code. This is the situacion: i have a player that has a
lot of movements, he can walk, run, jump, duck etc. he also has a weapon like a
sword, he can attack, defend, attack while jumping, dash, and has special
attacks etc.

My first idea is to make all the frames of the model in all positions and then
draw all the frames in secuence depending of the action required. Since the
player has so much movements it will take a lot of time but it's posible.
But........  the player also has the ability to change weapons and armors,
helmet, boots etc.. so the problem is if i have to make a model of the player
with  each armor, weapon and make all the frames for each weapon, armor???

if i have a model of a player and diferent model of swords, and i
make the sword model child of the players hand model, the sword will follow the
players hand whenever it moves???. 


         +  ->   head   model
         -  ->   hand   model
         |   ->   body   model
         s  ->   sword  model    
 
                               s
                 +++         s                                   +++  
                 +  +         s                                   +  +     
                 +++         s                                   +++        
                   |          s s s                                  |         
                   | ----- s                                     |--          
                   |            s                                     |    \   
                   |                                 	          |      \ s  
                   |                                                  |    s  s  s
                   |                                                  |      s                                                                     
                                                                          s    
                                                                        s     
                                                                      s


                standing                                       attack1


for example: i have a model for the head, another for the arms, another for the
body and for the sword. Then i have a secuence of frames of the attack
movement. The question in a simple way is if i have to make the secuence of
frames for all posible combination of body, arm, head, weapon????  i know there
must be other way.  If i move the arm as shown in the ascii art below, will the
sword make the movement described in the ascii art?? or it will follow the hand
all the time with the cutting edge pointing up??? i mean, will the sword rotate
with the hand???

I have seen a lot of games, RPG at most, and i don't see much changes in the
players look..... so i think what i want is not possible.  Any ideas please
tell me.  I know this has nothing to do with PLIB, but i'm willing to use PLIB
to do this, if it is possible.
-------------------------------------------------------


thanks....

Re: [Plib-users] Glut or SDL

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Dave McClurg wrote:
> 
> I'm about to launch into a large project (commercial game) using OpenGL and PLIB
> 
> For window support, I need to choose between GLUT and SDL
> (http://www.devolution.com/~slouken/SDL/).
> Which would you choose and why?
> 
> The big ports by lokigames are done with SDL.
> glTron/Andreas recently switched over to SDL.
> Any reason you can see to not follow the elephant tracks?
> Any advice or technical pro/con in this area?
> 
> i don't think licensing is an issue because SDL is LGPL and
> GLUT is "freely distributable" (same as public domain?).

freeGLUT is truly OpenSource - if that matters to you.  It seems
to work perfectly with every PLIB program I've tried it with.

I don't know much about SDL though - I choose GLUT simply because it's
installed pretty much everywhere OpenGL is - so that's one less
dependancy.

-- 
Steve Baker                  http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
sjb...@ai... (home)  http://www.woodsoup.org/~sbaker
sj...@ht...      (work)

[Plib-users] Help

[Matthew B. <Roy...@US...>]

help

Re: [Plib-users] Options for textured models

[Per L. <li...@ho...>]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Jasmin Patry wrote:
> (Actually, in response to my email, Per said he didn't have time to look
> into it.)

Yes, thinks were a bit hectic for a while. If you still have the model, I'd be
happy to look into the problem now, it should really be easy if I just had a
textured model... (and as usual, I'm to lazy to find one myself).

Regards,
Per

-- 
   / Per Liedman
  / li...@ho...
 / www.mdstud.chalmers.se/~md6pl
/ 031-825659 / 0705-520455