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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-14 23:21:37
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Just FYI, the lawyers did a more thorough check on Pidgin. They found this: A self-learning cross lingual interface based at the University of Twente in the Netherlands, but some of the links are broken and the site hasn't been updated since 2003: http://hmi.ewi.utwente.nl/Projects/pidgin.html Fotopages, a photo sharing site, appears to be run by a company called Pidgin Technologies Ltd, though they seem to be focusing on the Fotopages name. I don't see any social networking or chat components here. http://pidgintech.fotopages.com/ Pidgin Productions, "Producers Integrated Development Group, Initiatives and Network", is a non-profit in England focused on promoting cultural diversity in moving image media http://www.pidgin.org.uk/ Pidgen ML is a core subset of the Objective Caml programing language: http://www.inria.fr/rapportsactivite/RA2005/signes/uid40.html The Pidgen Compiler is a retired tool of Cornell University's Computer Science Department's Intelligent Software Systems: http://iss.cs.cornell.edu/p.aspx None of these projects are considered a bar from us using the name Pidgin. -s. |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-12 06:32:37
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On 8/11/06, Tim Ringenbach <om...@ho...> wrote: > Oh yeah, what about the term IM? Didn't I hear something about AOL > having some kind of trademark on that too? Or at least it's two-thirds > of AIM. If we're going to register the domain They have "instant messenger." IM is fine. -s. |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-12 06:31:39
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On 8/11/06, Gary Kramlich <gr...@re...> wrote: > Do we want to grab the channel on freenode right away, or wait a bit? Nobody's gonna squat a freenode channel, and if they do, we can get it from them easily. -s. |
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From: Tim R. <om...@ho...> - 2006-08-12 02:28:54
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Sean Egan wrote: > The lawyers have cleared Pidgin; it's ok to use. They've also cleared > Cohort. Oh yeah, what about the term IM? Didn't I hear something about AOL having some kind of trademark on that too? Or at least it's two-thirds of AIM. If we're going to register the domain pidgin-im.[com|net|org|im], maybe we should mention that explicitly in the agreement? Or have the lawyers said anything specific about the term "IM"? --Tim |
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From: Gary K. <gr...@re...> - 2006-08-12 01:21:02
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Sean Egan wrote: > On 8/11/06, Luke Schierer <lsc...@us...> wrote: >> This is unfortunately REALLY bad timing. I'm leaving for a week's >> vacation Saturday (I must have confused sean when I told him), and >> Dan is leaving for a 2 week vacation. So I can register domains >> today if we decide, or _next_ Monday. Or someone else could. Either >> way, we won't be able to move forward on hosting till Dan gets back. > > I promise you the settlement won't be fully negotiated (and thus the > clock ticking) until Dan gets back. These things take *forever*, as > you all already know. Do we want to grab the channel on freenode right away, or wait a bit? <snip> > -s. -- Gary Kramlich <gr...@re...> |
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From: Evan S. <ev...@dr...> - 2006-08-11 19:54:33
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On Aug 11, 2006, at 2:58 PM, Luke Schierer wrote: > I still crash on some jabber activity, but only on my home (amd64) > machine. I've got a crash I'm fairly sure is new to 2.x on Get Info of certain Jabber contacts... Crashes when executing 'Get Info' on contacts without Node Identifier in JID: http://trac.adiumx.com/ticket/4686 Not 64-bit.. but seemed relevant. |
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From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-08-11 18:58:13
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On Fri, Aug 11, 2006 at 09:03:36AM -0700, Sean Egan wrote: > On 8/11/06, Luke Schierer <lsc...@us...> wrote: > >This is unfortunately REALLY bad timing. I'm leaving for a week's > >vacation Saturday (I must have confused sean when I told him), and > >Dan is leaving for a 2 week vacation. So I can register domains > >today if we decide, or _next_ Monday. Or someone else could. Either > >way, we won't be able to move forward on hosting till Dan gets back. > > I promise you the settlement won't be fully negotiated (and thus the > clock ticking) until Dan gets back. These things take *forever*, as > you all already know. > > >right now, I still have trouble starting gaim because of a gstreamer > >crash, and I still have trouble using jabber on amd64, because of a > >libxml2 crash. These are the two most significant roadblocks for > >release from my point of view. > > The libxml2 thing was fixed, but naturally we'll all want to pound out > as many bugs as we can before release. > > -s. > I still crash on some jabber activity, but only on my home (amd64) machine. at work (i386), I only crash on gstreamer and gaim quit. luke |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-11 16:03:38
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On 8/11/06, Luke Schierer <lsc...@us...> wrote: > This is unfortunately REALLY bad timing. I'm leaving for a week's > vacation Saturday (I must have confused sean when I told him), and > Dan is leaving for a 2 week vacation. So I can register domains > today if we decide, or _next_ Monday. Or someone else could. Either > way, we won't be able to move forward on hosting till Dan gets back. I promise you the settlement won't be fully negotiated (and thus the clock ticking) until Dan gets back. These things take *forever*, as you all already know. > right now, I still have trouble starting gaim because of a gstreamer > crash, and I still have trouble using jabber on amd64, because of a > libxml2 crash. These are the two most significant roadblocks for > release from my point of view. The libxml2 thing was fixed, but naturally we'll all want to pound out as many bugs as we can before release. -s. |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-11 15:59:30
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On 8/11/06, Mark Doliner <ma...@ki...> wrote: > Wow, really? I guess I'm a little off. I think I was looking at the number > of downloads of Gaim from sourceforge. Maybe it was between 2 and 10 gb a > day? In any case my estimate is probably wrong and yours is probably closer. It's way off. We peak at 120GB a month on serving up web hits alone. file downloads peaked at 3.5TB a month. |
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From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-08-11 13:39:16
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On Fri, Aug 11, 2006 at 07:55:19AM -0400, Luke Schierer wrote: > I estimate about 5Gb a day not counting downloads. I've talked to Dan, my boss, who also > owns and runs dvlabs.com, about this. He's willing to host us, except downloads. > I need to bring it up again now that we are actually looking at it > soon. > > This would allow us to _use_ that pidgin-im.com domain, to have our > own trackers (something I would really like), to not worry about how > much web space we use up, and to manage our own lists. We can also > then use whatever content management system we like. > > This is unfortunately REALLY bad timing. I'm leaving for a week's > vacation Saturday (I must have confused sean when I told him), and > Dan is leaving for a 2 week vacation. So I can register domains > today if we decide, or _next_ Monday. Or someone else could. Either > way, we won't be able to move forward on hosting till Dan gets back. > > The biggest reason I'd like to use dvlabs, even with Dan being slow > about things, is because 5GB/Day is EXPENSIVE. We could go with > something like serverbeach, which would provide a terabyte/month, but > that's $150/month and would not provide us with a machine that has a > RAID. Not a great solution (I bring server beach up because I used > to work there, and at rackspace, which at the time owned them). > > Alternately, we could see what, if anything, > http://myriadnetwork.com/ can offer us. I've worked with them, and > they are good guys. > An additional benefit of using dvlabs of course would be that it is free, so long as we provide a link to them on our home page. luke |
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From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-08-11 11:54:26
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On Fri, Aug 11, 2006 at 01:13:30AM -0500, Mark Doliner wrote: > On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:56:28 -0700, Sean Egan wrote > > I like Pidgin. It's unique, kinda catchy, has an actual, relevant > > meaning (IM speakers butcher language), and---most importantly---a > > purple pigeon (http://www.english-country-garden.com/a/i/birds/wood- > > pigeon-1.jpg) would be a super fitting logo! > > > > The lawyers have cleared Pidgin; it's ok to use. They've also > > cleared Cohort. > > > > I say we settle on Pidgin, start registering domains, setting up > > servers, etc. I can work on a Pidgin-renaming patch. > > God yes. Pidgin's not my first choice, but I'm ok with it. I like > pidgin-im.com > pidgin-im.net > pidgin-im.org > Who should register those? Anyone, and then that person would be reimbursed > by the nonprofit? I can do it if you want. FYI, I heard a rumor that the > Isle of Man plans to start selling domains like pidgin.im later this year. Last time I talked to Isle of Man, they were INSANELY expensive. I'm not interested in paying more than $40 (as it is 40 _pounds_) a _year_ when I pay less than 1/4th of that for _10 years_ for other domains. > > Do we still have a lot of money from Google SoC? Can we move away from > sourceforge? What about leasing a server somewhere? Maybe from linode.com? > How many months could we go at $80 a month? Luke, don't you work for a > colocation company? Do you think they'd be willing to provide a free or > discounted rate for an open-source project? Are requirements aren't huge: > Apache, php, svn, ssh, and a lot of bandwidth (I estimate between 2GB and 10GB > a month). I estimate about 5Gb a day not counting downloads. I've talked to Dan, my boss, who also owns and runs dvlabs.com, about this. He's willing to host us, except downloads. I need to bring it up again now that we are actually looking at it soon. This would allow us to _use_ that pidgin-im.com domain, to have our own trackers (something I would really like), to not worry about how much web space we use up, and to manage our own lists. We can also then use whatever content management system we like. This is unfortunately REALLY bad timing. I'm leaving for a week's vacation Saturday (I must have confused sean when I told him), and Dan is leaving for a 2 week vacation. So I can register domains today if we decide, or _next_ Monday. Or someone else could. Either way, we won't be able to move forward on hosting till Dan gets back. The biggest reason I'd like to use dvlabs, even with Dan being slow about things, is because 5GB/Day is EXPENSIVE. We could go with something like serverbeach, which would provide a terabyte/month, but that's $150/month and would not provide us with a machine that has a RAID. Not a great solution (I bring server beach up because I used to work there, and at rackspace, which at the time owned them). Alternately, we could see what, if anything, http://myriadnetwork.com/ can offer us. I've worked with them, and they are good guys. > > What's our release strategy? Announce the non-profit and the name change > within the next month? Then release 2.0.0 sometime after that, once all the > major bugs are gone? right now, I still have trouble starting gaim because of a gstreamer crash, and I still have trouble using jabber on amd64, because of a libxml2 crash. These are the two most significant roadblocks for release from my point of view. But yes, I say that the road plan is to announce the name change and non-profit, and squash bugs as fast as possible for a 2.0.0 release. if the release isn't perfect, well, none of our other releases have been either. luke |
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From: Gary K. <gr...@re...> - 2006-08-11 11:40:43
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Mark Doliner wrote: <snip> > Do we still have a lot of money from Google SoC? Can we move away from > sourceforge? What about leasing a server somewhere? Maybe from linode.com? > How many months could we go at $80 a month? Luke, don't you work for a > colocation company? Do you think they'd be willing to provide a free or > discounted rate for an open-source project? Are requirements aren't huge: > Apache, php, svn, ssh, and a lot of bandwidth (I estimate between 2GB and 10GB > a month). I can help mirror a bit. I've got a server at steadfastnetworks with 1200gb of bandwidth a month. <snip> > Yay, > Mark <snip> -- Gary Kramlich <gr...@re...> |
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From: Evan S. <ev...@dr...> - 2006-08-11 07:58:35
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On Aug 11, 2006, at 3:55 AM, Mark Doliner wrote: > Wow, really? I guess I'm a little off. I think I was looking at > the number > of downloads of Gaim from sourceforge. Maybe it was between 2 and > 10 gb a > day? In any case my estimate is probably wrong and yours is > probably closer. From http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/?group_id=235&ugn=gaim it looks like around 10,000 downloads/day across all distributions. glancing at files sizes, 6 mb is a reasonable estimated average file size... 58.6 gb/day. That's 1.7 tb/month -- and, like the number I quoted for Adium, that's ignoring web hits (the Adium web hits add up to about 200 gb/month once we factor in adiumxtras.com). If gaim wasn't pushing more bandwidth than Adium, I'd be worried :) -Evan |
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From: Mark D. <ma...@ki...> - 2006-08-11 07:51:56
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 03:32:41 -0400, Evan Schoenberg wrote > Mark, is between 2 and 10 gb a month really reasonable for Gaim? > Adium moved just over 1 terabyte moved in the last month.. and we > didn't have a release in that timeframe. 'course, download size for > a universal OS X binary with localization into a lot of languages > is a bit more than Gaim's distribution size... 12 mb of Adium vs. > 5.8 mb for the gaim source distribution or 6.6 mb for the Windows > binary, as examples.. but the point remains that 10 gb is 2 orders > of magnitude less ;-) > > -Evan Wow, really? I guess I'm a little off. I think I was looking at the number of downloads of Gaim from sourceforge. Maybe it was between 2 and 10 gb a day? In any case my estimate is probably wrong and yours is probably closer. -Mark |
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From: Evan S. <ev...@dr...> - 2006-08-11 07:32:48
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On Aug 11, 2006, at 2:13 AM, Mark Doliner wrote: > Do we still have a lot of money from Google SoC? Can we move away > from > sourceforge? What about leasing a server somewhere? Maybe from > linode.com? > How many months could we go at $80 a month? Luke, don't you work > for a > colocation company? Do you think they'd be willing to provide a > free or > discounted rate for an open-source project? Are requirements > aren't huge: > Apache, php, svn, ssh, and a lot of bandwidth (I estimate between > 2GB and 10GB > a month). Two great companies that have been donating resources for Adium's huge bandwidth demands and slightly more moderate server demands are cachefly.com and networkredux.net. In the next email it's mentioned that Luke's employer is willing to do everything for Gaim for free; if a second or third host or whatever is needed, I could see if either of the above are interested in being involved. Mark, is between 2 and 10 gb a month really reasonable for Gaim? Adium moved just over 1 terabyte moved in the last month.. and we didn't have a release in that timeframe. 'course, download size for a universal OS X binary with localization into a lot of languages is a bit more than Gaim's distribution size... 12 mb of Adium vs. 5.8 mb for the gaim source distribution or 6.6 mb for the Windows binary, as examples.. but the point remains that 10 gb is 2 orders of magnitude less ;-) -Evan |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-11 06:55:44
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On 8/10/06, Mark Doliner <ma...@ki...> wrote: > Who should register those? Anyone, and then that person would be reimbursed > by the nonprofit? I can do it if you want. FYI, I heard a rumor that the > Isle of Man plans to start selling domains like pidgin.im later this year. Luke has been taking care of this sort of thing. We already have imfreedom.org; he's leaving on vacation this weekend. If we decide what domains we want this weekend, he can register them for us on Monday. > Do we still have a lot of money from Google SoC? Can we move away from > sourceforge? What about leasing a server somewhere? Maybe from linode.com? > How many months could we go at $80 a month? Luke, don't you work for a > colocation company? Do you think they'd be willing to provide a free or > discounted rate for an open-source project? Are requirements aren't huge: > Apache, php, svn, ssh, and a lot of bandwidth (I estimate between 2GB and 10GB > a month). Luke's employer has already volunteered to do this all for free. We'll still want to use sf.net for download mirrors, though. We push a lot of bits. I've already asked Steven Garrity (mozilla.org, digg.com, gaim.sf.net) about redoing the webpage. > What's our release strategy? Announce the non-profit and the name change > within the next month? Then release 2.0.0 sometime after that, once all the > major bugs are gone? I'd like to do everything in one fell swoop, releasing Pidgin 2.0.0 and announcing the non-profit. We may want to use the publicity from all this for fundraising, so we're not totally dependent on summer of code monies. I know Google would be willing to donate a bunch; this is something the non-profit should arrange later. > Once we have a new logo I think we should set up some kind of e-store. > Possibly at Cafepress or Zazzle. Definitely. We need some tee-shirts. We can get better quality than cafepress, though. The place right next to my school makes the shirts for GNOME (hackerthreads.com). |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-11 06:32:21
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On 8/10/06, Adam Fritzler <mi...@zi...> wrote: > I'm sure someone can convince SF that their most popular project should > be allowed to rename itself. Right. Just as Sourceforge was willing to let Gaim keep it's name, but not libfaim, kaim, etc., we should be able to get them to help us move. I think, though, that we want to move some of our resources away from sourceforge and to our own servers, so it wouldn't be the end of the world. |
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From: Mark D. <ma...@ki...> - 2006-08-11 06:10:06
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On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:56:28 -0700, Sean Egan wrote > I like Pidgin. It's unique, kinda catchy, has an actual, relevant > meaning (IM speakers butcher language), and---most importantly---a > purple pigeon (http://www.english-country-garden.com/a/i/birds/wood- > pigeon-1.jpg) would be a super fitting logo! > > The lawyers have cleared Pidgin; it's ok to use. They've also > cleared Cohort. > > I say we settle on Pidgin, start registering domains, setting up > servers, etc. I can work on a Pidgin-renaming patch. God yes. Pidgin's not my first choice, but I'm ok with it. I like pidgin-im.com pidgin-im.net pidgin-im.org Who should register those? Anyone, and then that person would be reimbursed by the nonprofit? I can do it if you want. FYI, I heard a rumor that the Isle of Man plans to start selling domains like pidgin.im later this year. Do we still have a lot of money from Google SoC? Can we move away from sourceforge? What about leasing a server somewhere? Maybe from linode.com? How many months could we go at $80 a month? Luke, don't you work for a colocation company? Do you think they'd be willing to provide a free or discounted rate for an open-source project? Are requirements aren't huge: Apache, php, svn, ssh, and a lot of bandwidth (I estimate between 2GB and 10GB a month). What's our release strategy? Announce the non-profit and the name change within the next month? Then release 2.0.0 sometime after that, once all the major bugs are gone? Once we have a new logo I think we should set up some kind of e-store. Possibly at Cafepress or Zazzle. I have not read through the attachment. I'll do that tonight and send another email if I find anything that bugs me. Yay, Mark P.S. Here are the results from the most recent voting. People who voted: Evan, Luke, Stu, Ethan, Gary, Nathan, Richard, Rob and me. Pidgin 71 Spiel 59 Cohort 54 Adagio 48 Kestrel 41 Jumble 39 Tincan 39 Motto 37 Aria 33 Crossthread 19 Seance 10 |
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From: Adam F. <mi...@zi...> - 2006-08-11 05:08:28
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On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 11:58:16PM -0500, Richard Laager wrote: > From what I heard, way back in the day, they tried to rename the libfaim > project and it became totally inaccessible. I wonder if things have > improved or not. The sign-up page still warns that you project name > can't be changed ever. I didn't so much try to rename it as sourceforge just disabled the account, after being strong-armed by AOL's lawyers. I got pissed off and just decided to stop using SF. I'm sure someone can convince SF that their most popular project should be allowed to rename itself. asf. |
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From: Richard L. <rl...@wi...> - 2006-08-11 05:01:21
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On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 20:52 -0400, Evan Schoenberg wrote: > Sean, is the project name on sourceforge going to change, as well? Do > they even have mechanisms for renaming projects? =46rom what I heard, way back in the day, they tried to rename the libfaim project and it became totally inaccessible. I wonder if things have improved or not. The sign-up page still warns that you project name can't be changed ever. Richard |
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From: Evan S. <ev...@dr...> - 2006-08-11 00:52:34
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On Aug 10, 2006, at 12:53 AM, Richard Laager wrote: >> I noticed that pidgin-im.com and .org are both available. > > These domains seem acceptable. Much better than pidginim.com :) Sean, is the project name on sourceforge going to change, as well? Do they even have mechanisms for renaming projects? |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-10 21:51:59
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I just realized that pidgin is related to carrier pigeons! -s. On 8/10/06, Sean Egan <sea...@gm...> wrote: > On 8/9/06, Gary Kramlich <gr...@re...> wrote: > > Computer code seems like it could be misconstrued... > > They're the software law experts. I'll trust them. "Computer code" > covers source code, machine code, byte code, and even configure.ac. > |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@gm...> - 2006-08-10 18:16:16
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On 8/9/06, Gary Kramlich <gr...@re...> wrote: > Computer code seems like it could be misconstrued... They're the software law experts. I'll trust them. "Computer code" covers source code, machine code, byte code, and even configure.ac. |
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From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-08-10 14:41:03
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On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 06:56:28PM -0700, Sean Egan wrote: > I like Pidgin. It's unique, kinda catchy, has an actual, relevant > meaning (IM speakers butcher language), and---most importantly---a > purple pigeon > (http://www.english-country-garden.com/a/i/birds/wood-pigeon-1.jpg) > would be a super fitting logo! > > The lawyers have cleared Pidgin; it's ok to use. They've also cleared > Cohort. I like pidgin, I could accept cohort, but I like it much less. I'm not particular about what domain we go with for it. <snip> > > I'll address some of the more obvious questions; feel free to > reply-all if you need any other clarifications: > Paragraph 2: "contributed" and "distributed" have no special > definition, and the obvious definitions are the ones that apply. This > covers all of us; Adium is considered a "distributor, and so "powered > by libgaim" is protected. > Paragraph 3: This is what they give up. They say that, with the > exception of the trademark thing, they have no problem with anything > we're doing regarding their intellectual property rights. > Paragraph 4: We change our name within 30 days. We can keep the > webpage and redirect it and we can the term Gaim in our API; which > saves a headache. Plus, 10 years from now we'll all feel like OS X > developers. In an oversight, I left in "prior to the date of this > agreement" regarding the souce code and documentation, which would > disclude us from ever writing new code that references any of the > existing code. Whoops! We'll fix that in the next draft. In this paragraph, "computer code" could be interpreted as "object code" or as "source code," both need to be covered. luke > Paragraph 5: AOL can't sue us about trademarks. They can sue other > projects (e.g. Adium, for "Powered by libgaim"), but we'll publish > this settlement, so that paragraph two can be used to have any such > suit thrown out. > > So. How about Pidgin? |
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From: Etan R. <de...@ed...> - 2006-08-10 05:10:02
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On Wed, 9 Aug 2006, Sean Egan wrote: > I like Pidgin. It's unique, kinda catchy, has an actual, relevant > meaning (IM speakers butcher language), and---most importantly---a > purple pigeon > (http://www.english-country-garden.com/a/i/birds/wood-pigeon-1.jpg) > would be a super fitting logo! <snip> > So. How about Pidgin? Pidgin works for me, I certainly don't think it's the perfect name but I haven't been able to come up with anything useful myself so holding out for it is a bit silly. As to the domain name stuff, if we wanted to go with that logo we could always go with purplepidgin.{com,net,org}. -Etan |
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