Contacts were designed *exactly* to allow you to group multiple buddies for the same person *and* to *order* them in the order you would like to use them, that's what the top-to-bottom order in the contact means. Further, the right-click menu on a contact lists all the sub-buddies in the contact with individual sub-menus such that you can interact with any given specific buddy should you want or need to.
There will not be an option to go back to the old icons, the amount of code involved is likely non-trivial, and we don't want to support it. Smiley themes are limited to smileys, GTK+ themes can override any pidgin icon with any other icon you want that is you could replace the green circle with any other single icon you want, but will not allow you to get per-protocol icons back that way.
Choice is wrong when the choice adds complexity for little to no reason. If someone could stand up today and give us a good, solid, incontrovertible reason that the protocol icons as the status icons was necessary we would consider bringing it back, but we haven't been given one yet. We made very sure that the information was still available in a number of places for the few circumstances in which it is necessary, hence the contact right-click menu, the tooltip, and the Send To menu including the relevant information. The buddy list view was deemed not to need such information and we have yet to be convinced otherwise.
When do you hit the Send button? What are you doing then? Pasting something? Is right-click, move-down 5 pixels, let go of button really harder or more annoying then moving to the Send button from wherever you happened to be and then clicking?
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The first thing I did was go into the icon directory and switch the filenames of all the away and extended away, so people who are away have the paper, and extended away has the clock. I saw a lot of arguments about this on the devel list, and I couldn't understand why people couldn't just fix it like I did...
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I have to say first to the developers great job! Thank you.
The first moment i saw it, i needed 15 min to get use to the new buddy icons but now it really feels better. I personally dont think that any information is lost. Plus i didnt like the buddy icons from before, maybe the new green circle should get some nicer flavor, but it is ok.
I can not understand the issue with the protocol icons. For example if you group your buddies into meta-contacts, you were (and are) able to see the one that is available at the moment. Unless of course you sort them otherwise. But if you like to use them as different protocols then dont group them and sort them manually.
I dont want to sound like a brown nose ... but i program too (not for pidgin thou), and i know the time and work behind it. If someone is making something for themselves and decide to shear it with the rest of us free of charge... then i have only to thank them. Maybe make a creative criticisms on the way or put something on the "wish list" but thats it.
Cheers
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I'm still having an issue with the fact that mobile users are noted as such not in the status icon, but as a modifier on the right side of the buddy list. On the buddy list, this is not a terrible problem, albeit slightly more obscure than having status as mobile with an available/away modifier. However, within the buddy window, the icon at the tab on the top gives NO indication of the possibility of mobile status. This makes it impossible to distinguish when one of my friends is on his computer or has signed off his computer after a conversation and the AIM platform has activated his mobile status. I know mobile is not a status in the technical sense, but functionally, it's a very different way of communicating and I think that should be evident immediately in the chat window, if not altered in the buddy list as well.
I understand Etan has been very frustrated by complaints about the client icons and I think he is vindicate to a certain degree. Users have no right to demand things from free software developers. However, I think my point about the mobile status is a usability issue that affects a large portion of the users even if they aren't all coming to the sourcefordge forums to talk about it. I have very limited programming experience, but if someone could point out where I should be looking to change this functionality, I'd be willing to give it a shot.
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The fact that the conversation window tab icon does not show mobile status is something that should probably be thought about a bit more. Feel free to send an email to the devel list about this specific example of things if you want to.
A plugin could add any status/protocol/mobile icon to the conversation window, I'll probably get around to writing one for this eventually just out of boredom but if someone wants to beat me to it that's fine.
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Let me preface my comments by stating that I love gaim/pidgin and really do appreciate all that the dev team and contributors have done for it. In this case I happen to disagree with a design decision being made however. That being said, i'd also like to state that I think the protocol icons should be reinstated/rolled back to previous versions, either as an option or a default in the core pidgin configuration, and here are some examples why:
- If I have a buddy grouped w/multiple protocols, I have no idea intuitively which account i'm messaging. Why does this matter? If for instance, one is a work account and another a private/home account that may be both logged in simultaneously, without right-clicking or selecting from the send-to dropdown, I have no idea where my message is being sent at a glance. It's much easier to make a snap judgement based on the destination protocol icon than right-clicking and drilling down or double-clicking and then selecting "send to" just in order to verify where a message will be sent. In previous incarnations of gaim/pidgin, that information was immediately and intuitively available to me at a glance w/o having to jump through hoops in order to figure it out.
- Alternatively, if I *don't* have a person with multiple accounts grouped together but sharing the same name, again, I have no idea where the message is going w/o drilling down into it. I could rename them to "friend-yahoo", "friend-msn", etc, but in previous versions this information was readily available without having to go out of my way to get it.
In summary, the fact that someone is logged in somewhere, I do not find particularly useful. I'm much more interested in *where* they're logged in so that I can make some snap decisions about what I want to message to where. The lack of protocol icons (or having an option to switch to them instead of the green circles) prohibits me from easily doing that. Yes there are workarounds in place, but I would argue that the change to a more simplified protocol icon list is neither as intuitive nor as useful as the previous gaim incarnations.
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I've been lurking for a while on this discussion, debating whether or not to say anything, but with such a careful, polite post, I'll chime in.
In short, I agree with this post. Frankly, whether or not some UI artifact is more intuitive, cleaner, beneficial, etc. is often highly subjective (unless there are empirical studies to provide efficiency data). I happen to find the old interface more useful to me and the way I process information.
Like the poster to whom I'm responding, I do sometimes care which protocol I'm about to use, and being able to see it at a quick glance with no extra keyboard or mouse interaction is beneficial.
FWIW
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I can't really say that I'm missing the protocol icons. The protocol icon is shown when I mouseover a contact.
When multiple accounts for the same person are grouped, the first account with the status available is chosen when I message him. That's really great for those contacts using another account (protocol) at work as at home. The work account gets a higher priority so it will be contacted if available, the home account will get a lower one and will be contacted if the work account is offline. Great.
When I started the new beta for the first time I really really missed the protocol icons, indeed. But that was just because I got used to it. After reading Sean's explanation I got the point. And I like it.
The new status icons are simple, clean and easy to recognize.
About the mobile AIM accounts: If the contact is available with his mobile account, he is _available_. Nothing more, nothing less. The status available says: I'm willing to get messages. Sure thing, as a friend you care about the costs and the circumstances that your buddy is using his mobile and therefore you will only contact him if it's necessary. But that changes nothing about the buddy being available. An icon in the message pane would be helpful (I'm thinking of an icon next to the typing icon as stated above).
When sending a file you have all protocols listed at the bottom of the context menu. It's a bit more way for the mouse, but no click more than before.
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Knowing when someone is mobile is useful, I'm working on a plugin to add that to the conversation window, when it's done it will go into the source (unless I get major objections which I don't expect I will).
Needing to pick a buddy to send a file to is something we intend on fixing, that is it is our intent to make the main Send File right-click menu item automatically pick the first account to which you can send a file and use that account in the same way it currently picks an account to send a message to.
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We need a clearer distinction in the chat window and the status window as to who is mobile and who is a hiptop user. I've found myself IMing people who are mobile thinking they were online, eating up their text messages because I didn't know. Personally I don't like looking like a jackass especially since I'm used to my client showing me more than it is now. Also, I can't see the need for the little AOL logo. AIM users don't have a special logo and neither should AOL.
That being said, the status icons should stay they way they are. What MIGHT be useful is the option to color users' names based on the client they are running. I think that would best be left to a plugin of some sort though which if I get some free time I might consider writing.
Cliff Notes:
1. Hiptop users are not clearly distinguished from mobile users (mobile and hiptop is a status just like away and idle)
2. Mobile and hiptop users are not shown as such in chat windows (someone goes mobile, you keep IMing them like they are there = bad).
3. AOL symbol needs to go bye bye. No point in it.
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The mobile icon currently exists in the buddy list, and like I said I'm working on a plugin to put it in the conversation window. While beta7 did not distinguish between mobile and hiptop 2.0.0 does. The AOL icon is likewise gone (at least we discussed that it should be).
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It's been said before, but I just wanted to add my voice to it.
I use MSN at work, but mostly AIM at home. Some of my contacts are part of both groups. I've already accidentally sent IMs to a friend/coworker's empty workstation at night because I didn't know which client I was using when I typed the IM.
Taking away features because you find the new interface cleaner is probably a bad idea when enough people need the feature (or even just want it) that a heated discussion opens up over the topic.
Also, nothing good can ever come of developers dictating to their users what they should want.
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If your buddy is leaving his work account in a more active status then his home account when he leaves work you should encourage him not to do that. If his home account were more active pidgin would have chosen that account when you double clicked his contact to start a conversation. If in fact your buddy is more active at work then at home then sending the IM to that account was the right thing to do (according to the system pidgin uses for this stuff), if you want to change the priority algorithm that pidgin uses you can build and use the contact priority plugin (which comes with the source) to tweak the values pidgin uses.
No features were removed here, not a one. What was changed as the placement of information that is of incredibly limited use to most people, and that information was moved to exactly the places that 98% of the valid uses need it. The couple wholes in the current system are in the process of being fixed, any creative comments on *specific* places that this information is needed and *why* it is needed there are welcome and will help make this change better for those last people who dislike it.
Leaving features in or adding features just because some people want them is not a good system for maintaining an application, it quickly leads to a disjoint and overwhelming mess of features many of which are not well tested in the random configurations that users will inevitably use. Which leads to a support nightmare and many angry users.
Features have a cost as well as a benefit, when the cost outweighs the benefit the features aren't worth it. Especially when the features in question can better be served by reworking how other parts of things work. For example, a number of people have used offline messaging as a reason that they 'need' to see protocol icons in the buddy list, leaving off the fact that the status icon doesn't need to be the protocol icon to make that work the fact that pidgin didn't correctly choose a protocol on which offline messages worked over protocols where they don't was a *bug* in pidgin and was fixed for the 2.0.0 release. What does that mean? That means that offline buddies that support offline messages will sort as having a higher priority than offline buddies which do not, which means that things should always Just Work the way you want them to. The upshot to this change is that the people who wanted the protocol icons for offline message stuff get the *actual* feature they want and not the workaround they were used to.
Lastly, yes, telling people what they do and do not want in terms of features is a bad idea, as is telling people what they do and do not need to do and what they should and should not do.
But you will notice that pidgin has not been telling people what features they do and do not want, in fact we have been trying and trying and trying to find out what *features* people need. People haven't been complaining about a feature being lost, they have been complaining about their perception of a loss of features. No one has yet been able to point to an actual feature of pidgin that this change removed. Only things that they were used to doing one way and now require a different way. So please, if you have specific features mention the, if you just don't like the fact that the methods need to change try the new ones and tell us what we could do to make the actual *goals* you have easier.
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Etan Reisner, I'm sorry to say.. but you're an idiot.. I tend to have different friends on different networks (Why have the same person on others??) but sometimes they have the same name.
The icons also help me keep my buddy list separated by protocol, It makes things much better.
You say you're coding for users.. but completely disregard the fact the users want this feature. A poll or ASKING your userbase what that want is far better then making changes to suit your personal preference alone.
It should be !!OPTIONAL!!.. It should not of been removed.. And I won't be upgrading...
Watch out.. "pal".. You're on thin ice ;)
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I have buddies for the same person on upwards of 4 accounts. I do that because they don't always use all of them, sometimes they use one and soemtimes the other, sometimes they retire a specific name for a while only to pick it up later. The fact that you assume that isn't a valid scenario is ridiculous.
If you want your buddy list separated by protocol you can trivially add a 'Sort by account' or 'Sort by protocol' buddy list sorting method with a plugin. I might even write one that does that since they really should exist. You can of course also actually create protocol specific groups and move your buddies into them.
What "things" does grouping by protocol make better for you? Can you give me specifics please? I'll bet that most of those things can be made better in other ways, likely in ways that work better for other people as well. But unless I know what they are I can't do that.
I never said I was coding for users. I am coding for myself, I always have been, however, while coding for myself I am keeping in mind the large user base that pidgin has and the needs that they have in an IM client.
If developers were to defer to what any arbitrary set of users wanted at all times every program would quickly bloat up into a horrible unintelligible, unmanageable, unusabe, unmaintainable mess. Since every third user has something different that they want.
I (we) are not ignoring what users want, we are ignoring the way they think they want it in favor of creating better ways for them to get what they really want. People say they want protocol icons so they can pick the right account to send an offline message to, but they don't really want protocol icons, what they want is for pidgin not to pick a buddy they can't send an offline message to, if pidgin always picked an offline buddy they could send to they would be happy, so you know what? That's exactly what we made it do. Offline buddies that support offline messages sort as having a higher priority in a contact than do offline buddies that don't support offline messages. So the *only* time double clicking a contact should *ever* get you a buddy that doesn't support offline message is when there is *no* buddy in that contact which does. This gets the users *exactly* the feature they really wanted without needing to stick extraneous information into the buddy list.
It should not be optional, it definitely should have been removed, and no one is forcing you to upgrade.
Lastly, you will notice that the *only* people in any of these threads who are the least bit insulting or condescending or anything else like that have been the users. I have never once done that and neither has any other developer. That should tell you something about the people involved in this discussion. The fact that you decided that starting your post off with a personal insult doesn't set you up as a particularly reasonable person in my mind.
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I know your trying to make your client simple and easy to use, but I'm a first time user of pidgin, and I was very confused as to what client i was talking from. I'm used to clicking on the actual yahoo, or aim client themselves to select who i'm going to talk to, then i get here, and there is just s/n's all over. Some the same name multiple times. I was shocked and confused.
None, of my friends use a multi-protocol client. Most are picky about which one you use with them. So, it's important for ease of use to see which they are talking to you with.
I was very excited about pidgin's update, but after dl'ing it, instantly, it felt too simple and i was left feeling undazzled. I don't want to give-up the features and ease of used I had before. I hope this simple protocol icon issue can get resolved. Thanks. (Sara)
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Set your buddies up into contacts, right-click Expand and/or drag and drop. Contacts are designed to let you have only one buddy list entry for each 'person' you deal with, they greatly simplify managing multiple accounts with the same buddy on them, they also mean that for the most part you don't need to care which account you are talking to the person on because pidgin will choose the 'correct' one for you. Where correct is the most available buddy with the top-to-bottom ordering in the contact being the default.
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I for one miss the old protocol icons also. With the old GAIM if something like MSN's protocol messed up or crashed I could easily tell that it was MSN only messing up. Now I just see half my list go away and I have to try and figure out what protocol it was by checking users that are on my list and what protocol their using.
I like the way the icons are now but it just makes things complicated for people that like to know info about people without clicking on stuff to do it. It would be nice if someone could make a theme for the people that wish to see protocol icons. Even if they where not the official icons for the protocol, just something to distinguish what people are using.
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If MSN is actually down then your MSN account will have gotten disconnected and pidgin will show you a very nice connection error button at the bottom of the buddy list. Those buttons are a *far* better indicator that something is really wrong then scanning your list to check whether you happen to see a certain protocols icon. (Since that method can fail for a number of reasons having nothing to do with the protocol actually having problems.)
Why do you like to know what protocol people on your buddy list are using? If you want to know things like that shouldn't you already know based on the fact that you had to add the person to your list in the first place?
A theme could not add distinct icons per-buddy.
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So your saying if theres an error now the pop up at the bottom says Error with MSN protocol or disconnected from MSN (like in GAIM 2.0.0v6? Before I didn't have "Scan my list" I just looked and saw no MSN icons.Thats how I could tell either MSN's network has having issues or it was something to do with GAIM.
I honestly don't like to be left in the dark with what people are using even if your intentions are good. Their should be an option that allows us to view the protocol icons not just this BS of clicking on the contacts to see what their using. No more of this "but it's what everyone wants". I've never once seen anyone say remove the protocol icons from GAIM. I've been reading this thread, it seems mostly everyone wants the icons back, some don't, or at least a choice to turn them on or off if we want too. If I knew how to edit the source then id be the first to do it but since I don't I have to rely on others to hopefully give this option in the future. As it stands, id rather stick with old GAIM then upgrade permanently.
PS. I'm not saying everything is bad in the new version. I'm just saying somethings, in my option, should not be changed and if they are their should be options to go to classic mode this way you don't piss off to many of your older fans. Also this is not a flame at you. I'm just frustrated that your not looking at this from others perspectives. You may find this easier but not everyone is like you.
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Yes, for a number of beta releases already gaim had (and pidgin has) error buttons at the bottom of the buddy list for when there are connection errors for any of your accounts. Those are a much better indicator of account connection status than whether you can see the right protocols status icons, because everyone may just be offline at that moment, or you have more buddies than you can see and just happen not to have any from that protocol on screen, or any of a handful of other similar scenarios.
You aren't being "left in the dark" about anything, we simply moved some information from a very prominent place where it served little-to-no purpose to a number of less prominent places where it does serve a purpose.
I can't help the fact that you never saw anyone request the protocol icons removal, I did. I saw it both directly and indirectly requested more than once.
I am looking at this from everyone's perspective, or least I am trying to, looking at it from someone's perpective is made very hard when the people fail to really explain their perspective. "I liked the protocol icons" is not a perspective it is a feeling, "they let me do things" is not a perspective it is a statement without any backing. If anyone had been giving me examples of things that they find themselves currently unable to do and the reasons they need to do those things I would be more than happy to work out ways to allow them to continue doing so as easily (if not more easily) then before, but I haven't gotten anything like that from anyone.
Oh, and as to "mostly everyone wants the icons back, some don't" I think that is a rather gross mis-statement of the way the feedback in this thread has gone. There have been eighteen posters to this thread. Eighteen users out of the multiple hundreds of thousands that use gaim/pidgin isn't even a drop in the bucket, and that's not counting the fact that at least a handful of the comments were in favor of, positive towards, or neutral towards the change. So your characterization of this as having "mostly everyone" upset about the change I feel is well out of the realm of reasonable.
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If there's an error there will be a button at the bottom of the window and the first thing in this button is the protocol icon. Followed by the protocol name I think. But that's how it looked like since beta 6 or beta 5 I think.
Is it just me who can see the buddy protocols by mousing over the contact? If I mouse over a contact a popup will appear showing me the accounts of that buddy currently selected as well as the appropriate order of which the contact will be contacted. There are also the status of the accounts in that popup. No need to click anything for me.
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The protocol icons aren't that big a deal. All you have to do is hover your mouse over the person's screen name and you can see what protocol they're on.
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Contacts were designed *exactly* to allow you to group multiple buddies for the same person *and* to *order* them in the order you would like to use them, that's what the top-to-bottom order in the contact means. Further, the right-click menu on a contact lists all the sub-buddies in the contact with individual sub-menus such that you can interact with any given specific buddy should you want or need to.
There will not be an option to go back to the old icons, the amount of code involved is likely non-trivial, and we don't want to support it. Smiley themes are limited to smileys, GTK+ themes can override any pidgin icon with any other icon you want that is you could replace the green circle with any other single icon you want, but will not allow you to get per-protocol icons back that way.
Choice is wrong when the choice adds complexity for little to no reason. If someone could stand up today and give us a good, solid, incontrovertible reason that the protocol icons as the status icons was necessary we would consider bringing it back, but we haven't been given one yet. We made very sure that the information was still available in a number of places for the few circumstances in which it is necessary, hence the contact right-click menu, the tooltip, and the Send To menu including the relevant information. The buddy list view was deemed not to need such information and we have yet to be convinced otherwise.
When do you hit the Send button? What are you doing then? Pasting something? Is right-click, move-down 5 pixels, let go of button really harder or more annoying then moving to the Send button from wherever you happened to be and then clicking?
Hey, Am I the only one thinking the new icons set are ugly? Status icons in beta 6 were a lot more beautiful than those "thing".
The first thing I did was go into the icon directory and switch the filenames of all the away and extended away, so people who are away have the paper, and extended away has the clock. I saw a lot of arguments about this on the devel list, and I couldn't understand why people couldn't just fix it like I did...
I have to say first to the developers great job! Thank you.
The first moment i saw it, i needed 15 min to get use to the new buddy icons but now it really feels better. I personally dont think that any information is lost. Plus i didnt like the buddy icons from before, maybe the new green circle should get some nicer flavor, but it is ok.
I can not understand the issue with the protocol icons. For example if you group your buddies into meta-contacts, you were (and are) able to see the one that is available at the moment. Unless of course you sort them otherwise. But if you like to use them as different protocols then dont group them and sort them manually.
I dont want to sound like a brown nose ... but i program too (not for pidgin thou), and i know the time and work behind it. If someone is making something for themselves and decide to shear it with the rest of us free of charge... then i have only to thank them. Maybe make a creative criticisms on the way or put something on the "wish list" but thats it.
Cheers
I'm still having an issue with the fact that mobile users are noted as such not in the status icon, but as a modifier on the right side of the buddy list. On the buddy list, this is not a terrible problem, albeit slightly more obscure than having status as mobile with an available/away modifier. However, within the buddy window, the icon at the tab on the top gives NO indication of the possibility of mobile status. This makes it impossible to distinguish when one of my friends is on his computer or has signed off his computer after a conversation and the AIM platform has activated his mobile status. I know mobile is not a status in the technical sense, but functionally, it's a very different way of communicating and I think that should be evident immediately in the chat window, if not altered in the buddy list as well.
I understand Etan has been very frustrated by complaints about the client icons and I think he is vindicate to a certain degree. Users have no right to demand things from free software developers. However, I think my point about the mobile status is a usability issue that affects a large portion of the users even if they aren't all coming to the sourcefordge forums to talk about it. I have very limited programming experience, but if someone could point out where I should be looking to change this functionality, I'd be willing to give it a shot.
The fact that the conversation window tab icon does not show mobile status is something that should probably be thought about a bit more. Feel free to send an email to the devel list about this specific example of things if you want to.
A plugin could add any status/protocol/mobile icon to the conversation window, I'll probably get around to writing one for this eventually just out of boredom but if someone wants to beat me to it that's fine.
Let me preface my comments by stating that I love gaim/pidgin and really do appreciate all that the dev team and contributors have done for it. In this case I happen to disagree with a design decision being made however. That being said, i'd also like to state that I think the protocol icons should be reinstated/rolled back to previous versions, either as an option or a default in the core pidgin configuration, and here are some examples why:
- If I have a buddy grouped w/multiple protocols, I have no idea intuitively which account i'm messaging. Why does this matter? If for instance, one is a work account and another a private/home account that may be both logged in simultaneously, without right-clicking or selecting from the send-to dropdown, I have no idea where my message is being sent at a glance. It's much easier to make a snap judgement based on the destination protocol icon than right-clicking and drilling down or double-clicking and then selecting "send to" just in order to verify where a message will be sent. In previous incarnations of gaim/pidgin, that information was immediately and intuitively available to me at a glance w/o having to jump through hoops in order to figure it out.
- Alternatively, if I *don't* have a person with multiple accounts grouped together but sharing the same name, again, I have no idea where the message is going w/o drilling down into it. I could rename them to "friend-yahoo", "friend-msn", etc, but in previous versions this information was readily available without having to go out of my way to get it.
In summary, the fact that someone is logged in somewhere, I do not find particularly useful. I'm much more interested in *where* they're logged in so that I can make some snap decisions about what I want to message to where. The lack of protocol icons (or having an option to switch to them instead of the green circles) prohibits me from easily doing that. Yes there are workarounds in place, but I would argue that the change to a more simplified protocol icon list is neither as intuitive nor as useful as the previous gaim incarnations.
I've been lurking for a while on this discussion, debating whether or not to say anything, but with such a careful, polite post, I'll chime in.
In short, I agree with this post. Frankly, whether or not some UI artifact is more intuitive, cleaner, beneficial, etc. is often highly subjective (unless there are empirical studies to provide efficiency data). I happen to find the old interface more useful to me and the way I process information.
Like the poster to whom I'm responding, I do sometimes care which protocol I'm about to use, and being able to see it at a quick glance with no extra keyboard or mouse interaction is beneficial.
FWIW
I can't really say that I'm missing the protocol icons. The protocol icon is shown when I mouseover a contact.
When multiple accounts for the same person are grouped, the first account with the status available is chosen when I message him. That's really great for those contacts using another account (protocol) at work as at home. The work account gets a higher priority so it will be contacted if available, the home account will get a lower one and will be contacted if the work account is offline. Great.
When I started the new beta for the first time I really really missed the protocol icons, indeed. But that was just because I got used to it. After reading Sean's explanation I got the point. And I like it.
The new status icons are simple, clean and easy to recognize.
About the mobile AIM accounts: If the contact is available with his mobile account, he is _available_. Nothing more, nothing less. The status available says: I'm willing to get messages. Sure thing, as a friend you care about the costs and the circumstances that your buddy is using his mobile and therefore you will only contact him if it's necessary. But that changes nothing about the buddy being available. An icon in the message pane would be helpful (I'm thinking of an icon next to the typing icon as stated above).
When sending a file you have all protocols listed at the bottom of the context menu. It's a bit more way for the mouse, but no click more than before.
Knowing when someone is mobile is useful, I'm working on a plugin to add that to the conversation window, when it's done it will go into the source (unless I get major objections which I don't expect I will).
Needing to pick a buddy to send a file to is something we intend on fixing, that is it is our intent to make the main Send File right-click menu item automatically pick the first account to which you can send a file and use that account in the same way it currently picks an account to send a message to.
We need a clearer distinction in the chat window and the status window as to who is mobile and who is a hiptop user. I've found myself IMing people who are mobile thinking they were online, eating up their text messages because I didn't know. Personally I don't like looking like a jackass especially since I'm used to my client showing me more than it is now. Also, I can't see the need for the little AOL logo. AIM users don't have a special logo and neither should AOL.
That being said, the status icons should stay they way they are. What MIGHT be useful is the option to color users' names based on the client they are running. I think that would best be left to a plugin of some sort though which if I get some free time I might consider writing.
Cliff Notes:
1. Hiptop users are not clearly distinguished from mobile users (mobile and hiptop is a status just like away and idle)
2. Mobile and hiptop users are not shown as such in chat windows (someone goes mobile, you keep IMing them like they are there = bad).
3. AOL symbol needs to go bye bye. No point in it.
The mobile icon currently exists in the buddy list, and like I said I'm working on a plugin to put it in the conversation window. While beta7 did not distinguish between mobile and hiptop 2.0.0 does. The AOL icon is likewise gone (at least we discussed that it should be).
It's been said before, but I just wanted to add my voice to it.
I use MSN at work, but mostly AIM at home. Some of my contacts are part of both groups. I've already accidentally sent IMs to a friend/coworker's empty workstation at night because I didn't know which client I was using when I typed the IM.
Taking away features because you find the new interface cleaner is probably a bad idea when enough people need the feature (or even just want it) that a heated discussion opens up over the topic.
Also, nothing good can ever come of developers dictating to their users what they should want.
If your buddy is leaving his work account in a more active status then his home account when he leaves work you should encourage him not to do that. If his home account were more active pidgin would have chosen that account when you double clicked his contact to start a conversation. If in fact your buddy is more active at work then at home then sending the IM to that account was the right thing to do (according to the system pidgin uses for this stuff), if you want to change the priority algorithm that pidgin uses you can build and use the contact priority plugin (which comes with the source) to tweak the values pidgin uses.
No features were removed here, not a one. What was changed as the placement of information that is of incredibly limited use to most people, and that information was moved to exactly the places that 98% of the valid uses need it. The couple wholes in the current system are in the process of being fixed, any creative comments on *specific* places that this information is needed and *why* it is needed there are welcome and will help make this change better for those last people who dislike it.
Leaving features in or adding features just because some people want them is not a good system for maintaining an application, it quickly leads to a disjoint and overwhelming mess of features many of which are not well tested in the random configurations that users will inevitably use. Which leads to a support nightmare and many angry users.
Features have a cost as well as a benefit, when the cost outweighs the benefit the features aren't worth it. Especially when the features in question can better be served by reworking how other parts of things work. For example, a number of people have used offline messaging as a reason that they 'need' to see protocol icons in the buddy list, leaving off the fact that the status icon doesn't need to be the protocol icon to make that work the fact that pidgin didn't correctly choose a protocol on which offline messages worked over protocols where they don't was a *bug* in pidgin and was fixed for the 2.0.0 release. What does that mean? That means that offline buddies that support offline messages will sort as having a higher priority than offline buddies which do not, which means that things should always Just Work the way you want them to. The upshot to this change is that the people who wanted the protocol icons for offline message stuff get the *actual* feature they want and not the workaround they were used to.
Lastly, yes, telling people what they do and do not want in terms of features is a bad idea, as is telling people what they do and do not need to do and what they should and should not do.
But you will notice that pidgin has not been telling people what features they do and do not want, in fact we have been trying and trying and trying to find out what *features* people need. People haven't been complaining about a feature being lost, they have been complaining about their perception of a loss of features. No one has yet been able to point to an actual feature of pidgin that this change removed. Only things that they were used to doing one way and now require a different way. So please, if you have specific features mention the, if you just don't like the fact that the methods need to change try the new ones and tell us what we could do to make the actual *goals* you have easier.
Etan Reisner, I'm sorry to say.. but you're an idiot.. I tend to have different friends on different networks (Why have the same person on others??) but sometimes they have the same name.
The icons also help me keep my buddy list separated by protocol, It makes things much better.
You say you're coding for users.. but completely disregard the fact the users want this feature. A poll or ASKING your userbase what that want is far better then making changes to suit your personal preference alone.
It should be !!OPTIONAL!!.. It should not of been removed.. And I won't be upgrading...
Watch out.. "pal".. You're on thin ice ;)
I have buddies for the same person on upwards of 4 accounts. I do that because they don't always use all of them, sometimes they use one and soemtimes the other, sometimes they retire a specific name for a while only to pick it up later. The fact that you assume that isn't a valid scenario is ridiculous.
If you want your buddy list separated by protocol you can trivially add a 'Sort by account' or 'Sort by protocol' buddy list sorting method with a plugin. I might even write one that does that since they really should exist. You can of course also actually create protocol specific groups and move your buddies into them.
What "things" does grouping by protocol make better for you? Can you give me specifics please? I'll bet that most of those things can be made better in other ways, likely in ways that work better for other people as well. But unless I know what they are I can't do that.
I never said I was coding for users. I am coding for myself, I always have been, however, while coding for myself I am keeping in mind the large user base that pidgin has and the needs that they have in an IM client.
If developers were to defer to what any arbitrary set of users wanted at all times every program would quickly bloat up into a horrible unintelligible, unmanageable, unusabe, unmaintainable mess. Since every third user has something different that they want.
I (we) are not ignoring what users want, we are ignoring the way they think they want it in favor of creating better ways for them to get what they really want. People say they want protocol icons so they can pick the right account to send an offline message to, but they don't really want protocol icons, what they want is for pidgin not to pick a buddy they can't send an offline message to, if pidgin always picked an offline buddy they could send to they would be happy, so you know what? That's exactly what we made it do. Offline buddies that support offline messages sort as having a higher priority in a contact than do offline buddies that don't support offline messages. So the *only* time double clicking a contact should *ever* get you a buddy that doesn't support offline message is when there is *no* buddy in that contact which does. This gets the users *exactly* the feature they really wanted without needing to stick extraneous information into the buddy list.
It should not be optional, it definitely should have been removed, and no one is forcing you to upgrade.
Lastly, you will notice that the *only* people in any of these threads who are the least bit insulting or condescending or anything else like that have been the users. I have never once done that and neither has any other developer. That should tell you something about the people involved in this discussion. The fact that you decided that starting your post off with a personal insult doesn't set you up as a particularly reasonable person in my mind.
Just got 2.0 final... I still think the hiptop/mobile symbols need to be incorperated into the status symbol somehow.
I know your trying to make your client simple and easy to use, but I'm a first time user of pidgin, and I was very confused as to what client i was talking from. I'm used to clicking on the actual yahoo, or aim client themselves to select who i'm going to talk to, then i get here, and there is just s/n's all over. Some the same name multiple times. I was shocked and confused.
None, of my friends use a multi-protocol client. Most are picky about which one you use with them. So, it's important for ease of use to see which they are talking to you with.
I was very excited about pidgin's update, but after dl'ing it, instantly, it felt too simple and i was left feeling undazzled. I don't want to give-up the features and ease of used I had before. I hope this simple protocol icon issue can get resolved. Thanks. (Sara)
Set your buddies up into contacts, right-click Expand and/or drag and drop. Contacts are designed to let you have only one buddy list entry for each 'person' you deal with, they greatly simplify managing multiple accounts with the same buddy on them, they also mean that for the most part you don't need to care which account you are talking to the person on because pidgin will choose the 'correct' one for you. Where correct is the most available buddy with the top-to-bottom ordering in the contact being the default.
I for one miss the old protocol icons also. With the old GAIM if something like MSN's protocol messed up or crashed I could easily tell that it was MSN only messing up. Now I just see half my list go away and I have to try and figure out what protocol it was by checking users that are on my list and what protocol their using.
I like the way the icons are now but it just makes things complicated for people that like to know info about people without clicking on stuff to do it. It would be nice if someone could make a theme for the people that wish to see protocol icons. Even if they where not the official icons for the protocol, just something to distinguish what people are using.
If MSN is actually down then your MSN account will have gotten disconnected and pidgin will show you a very nice connection error button at the bottom of the buddy list. Those buttons are a *far* better indicator that something is really wrong then scanning your list to check whether you happen to see a certain protocols icon. (Since that method can fail for a number of reasons having nothing to do with the protocol actually having problems.)
Why do you like to know what protocol people on your buddy list are using? If you want to know things like that shouldn't you already know based on the fact that you had to add the person to your list in the first place?
A theme could not add distinct icons per-buddy.
So your saying if theres an error now the pop up at the bottom says Error with MSN protocol or disconnected from MSN (like in GAIM 2.0.0v6? Before I didn't have "Scan my list" I just looked and saw no MSN icons.Thats how I could tell either MSN's network has having issues or it was something to do with GAIM.
I honestly don't like to be left in the dark with what people are using even if your intentions are good. Their should be an option that allows us to view the protocol icons not just this BS of clicking on the contacts to see what their using. No more of this "but it's what everyone wants". I've never once seen anyone say remove the protocol icons from GAIM. I've been reading this thread, it seems mostly everyone wants the icons back, some don't, or at least a choice to turn them on or off if we want too. If I knew how to edit the source then id be the first to do it but since I don't I have to rely on others to hopefully give this option in the future. As it stands, id rather stick with old GAIM then upgrade permanently.
PS. I'm not saying everything is bad in the new version. I'm just saying somethings, in my option, should not be changed and if they are their should be options to go to classic mode this way you don't piss off to many of your older fans. Also this is not a flame at you. I'm just frustrated that your not looking at this from others perspectives. You may find this easier but not everyone is like you.
Yes, for a number of beta releases already gaim had (and pidgin has) error buttons at the bottom of the buddy list for when there are connection errors for any of your accounts. Those are a much better indicator of account connection status than whether you can see the right protocols status icons, because everyone may just be offline at that moment, or you have more buddies than you can see and just happen not to have any from that protocol on screen, or any of a handful of other similar scenarios.
You aren't being "left in the dark" about anything, we simply moved some information from a very prominent place where it served little-to-no purpose to a number of less prominent places where it does serve a purpose.
I can't help the fact that you never saw anyone request the protocol icons removal, I did. I saw it both directly and indirectly requested more than once.
I am looking at this from everyone's perspective, or least I am trying to, looking at it from someone's perpective is made very hard when the people fail to really explain their perspective. "I liked the protocol icons" is not a perspective it is a feeling, "they let me do things" is not a perspective it is a statement without any backing. If anyone had been giving me examples of things that they find themselves currently unable to do and the reasons they need to do those things I would be more than happy to work out ways to allow them to continue doing so as easily (if not more easily) then before, but I haven't gotten anything like that from anyone.
Oh, and as to "mostly everyone wants the icons back, some don't" I think that is a rather gross mis-statement of the way the feedback in this thread has gone. There have been eighteen posters to this thread. Eighteen users out of the multiple hundreds of thousands that use gaim/pidgin isn't even a drop in the bucket, and that's not counting the fact that at least a handful of the comments were in favor of, positive towards, or neutral towards the change. So your characterization of this as having "mostly everyone" upset about the change I feel is well out of the realm of reasonable.
If there's an error there will be a button at the bottom of the window and the first thing in this button is the protocol icon. Followed by the protocol name I think. But that's how it looked like since beta 6 or beta 5 I think.
Is it just me who can see the buddy protocols by mousing over the contact? If I mouse over a contact a popup will appear showing me the accounts of that buddy currently selected as well as the appropriate order of which the contact will be contacted. There are also the status of the accounts in that popup. No need to click anything for me.
The protocol icons aren't that big a deal. All you have to do is hover your mouse over the person's screen name and you can see what protocol they're on.