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From: J C L. <cl...@ka...> - 2001-06-15 18:24:43
|
On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:28:35 -0300 Sergio A Kessler <ser...@ho...> wrote: > yup, I also started with mysql, and got to a point where I begin > hating it, then I look to postgresql, from there I never come back > to mysql... The fact that the Wiki-esque thing I'm working on is full of three and four way joins and is rather write happy along with other SQl nastiness encouraged the decision to drop MySQL. Too light weight. -- J C Lawrence cl...@ka... ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows |
|
From: Sergio A. K. <ser...@ho...> - 2001-06-15 14:24:06
|
----- Original Message ----- From: "J C Lawrence" <cl...@ka...> > >> Odd. I could not visit a page last night without it being > >> riddled with MySQL errors mostly related to being unable to > >> access the DB etc. Today, everything is fine. > > > mysql "features" ... > > Yeah, I'm slowly moving everything off MySQL here. I've had enough > of ISM files getting silently trashed and having to rebuild from > replay logs (almost a dozen times this year alone). PostgresQL > hasn't dropped a byte. yup, I also started with mysql, and got to a point where I begin hating it, then I look to postgresql, from there I never come back to mysql... /sergio |
|
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|
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From: J C L. <cl...@ka...> - 2001-06-15 05:40:40
|
On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:29:05 -0300 Sergio A Kessler <ser...@ho...> wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "J C Lawrence" <cl...@ka...> >> Odd. I could not visit a page last night without it being >> riddled with MySQL errors mostly related to being unable to >> access the DB etc. Today, everything is fine. > mysql "features" ... Yeah, I'm slowly moving everything off MySQL here. I've had enough of ISM files getting silently trashed and having to rebuild from replay logs (almost a dozen times this year alone). PostgresQL hasn't dropped a byte. -- J C Lawrence cl...@ka... ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows |
|
From: Malcolm R. <mal...@cs...> - 2001-06-15 01:43:39
|
I was just browsing through the PhpWiki demonstration Wiki on sourceforge and it occured to me how ironic it is that it is one of the least useful Wikis around. It has the lowest signal-to-noise ratio of any Wiki I've seen. Try reading RecentChanges and you'll see what I mean. For every meaningful page change there are a billion-and-one test pages etc. This is not a criticism of anyone. It's only natural that it is going to happen this way. The demonstration Wiki serves two contradictory purposes: 1) To discuss + documention PhpWiki development, and 2) as a testing ground for new users to play with Wiki. It is this second purpose which means that the demonstration Wiki is going to have higher noise than any other normal Wiki around. What I am getting at is this: perhaps we should create a separate Wiki for discussing PhpWiki development, and make an effort to edit it and keep it useful, whilst directing newbies who want to play to a different test-wiki. Malcolm -- Malcolm Ryan - mal...@cs... - http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/ AI Dept, CSE, UNSW, Australia, Phone: +61 2 9385-6906 Fax: +61 2 9385-4936 "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." - Matt 5:45 |
|
From: Malcolm R. <mal...@cs...> - 2001-06-15 01:18:33
|
On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:31:09PM -0500, Joel Uckelman wrote: > Most of the things that were listed under Problems are now Fixed, among > them: > > * Diffs against aribtrary page versions are now possible. > * Diff links in page footers work properly. > * Pages display their version numbers. > * Old versions of pages are locked when archived. > > Give it a look: > > http://www.nomic.net/~test/phpwiki/index.php?FrontPage Nice work, Joel. Malcolm -- Malcolm Ryan - mal...@cs... - http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/ AI Dept, CSE, UNSW, Australia, Phone: +61 2 9385-6906 Fax: +61 2 9385-4936 "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." - Matt 5:45 |
|
From: Joel U. <uck...@no...> - 2001-06-15 00:31:10
|
Most of the things that were listed under Problems are now Fixed, among them: * Diffs against aribtrary page versions are now possible. * Diff links in page footers work properly. * Pages display their version numbers. * Old versions of pages are locked when archived. Give it a look: http://www.nomic.net/~test/phpwiki/index.php?FrontPage -- J. |
|
From: Sergio A. K. <ser...@ho...> - 2001-06-14 18:24:36
|
----- Original Message ----- From: "J C Lawrence" <cl...@ka...> > Odd. I could not visit a page last night without it being riddled > with MySQL errors mostly related to being unable to access the DB > etc. Today, everything is fine. mysql "features" ... (sorry, couldn't resist) /sergio |
|
From: J C L. <cl...@ka...> - 2001-06-14 15:35:56
|
On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 04:07:48 -0500 Joel Uckelman <uck...@no...> wrote: > Quoth J C Lawrence: >> MySQL errors. > Odd. I can see there were errors from the log, but it isn't very > illuminating as to what they were. I've had no trouble accessing > the test Wiki from two computers that its not running on, one > being my desktop system, and the other a box in a different domain > that I have a shell account on. What did it tell you? Odd. I could not visit a page last night without it being riddled with MySQL errors mostly related to being unable to access the DB etc. Today, everything is fine. -- J C Lawrence cl...@ka... ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows |
|
From: Steve W. <sw...@pa...> - 2001-06-14 14:11:06
|
I had no MySQL errors. JC, this looks really great so far. ~swain On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Joel Uckelman wrote: > Quoth J C Lawrence: > > On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:51:44 -0500 > > Joel Uckelman <uck...@no...> wrote: > > > > > http://www.nomic.net/~test/phpwiki/index.php > > > > MySQL errors. > > > > -- > > J C Lawrence cl...@ka... > > ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ > > The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows > > Odd. I can see there were errors from the log, but it isn't very illuminating as to what they were. I've had no trouble accessing the test Wiki from two computers that its not running on, one being my desktop system, and the other a box in a different domain that I have a shell account on. What did it tell you? > > -- > J. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phpwiki-talk mailing list > Php...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/phpwiki-talk > --- http://www.panix.com/~swain/ "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." -- Frank Zappa |
|
From: Joel U. <uck...@no...> - 2001-06-14 09:07:54
|
Quoth J C Lawrence: > On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:51:44 -0500 > Joel Uckelman <uck...@no...> wrote: > > > http://www.nomic.net/~test/phpwiki/index.php > > MySQL errors. > > -- > J C Lawrence cl...@ka... > ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ > The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows Odd. I can see there were errors from the log, but it isn't very illuminating as to what they were. I've had no trouble accessing the test Wiki from two computers that its not running on, one being my desktop system, and the other a box in a different domain that I have a shell account on. What did it tell you? -- J. |
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From: J C L. <cl...@ka...> - 2001-06-14 08:24:17
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:51:44 -0500 Joel Uckelman <uck...@no...> wrote: > http://www.nomic.net/~test/phpwiki/index.php MySQL errors. -- J C Lawrence cl...@ka... ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows |
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From: Joel U. <uck...@no...> - 2001-06-14 07:51:48
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I spent tonight hacking on a test Wiki, and now have something that approaches usable versioning. So, everyone please take a look at it, play with it some, (I suppose) try to break it, and let me know what you think. Here it is: http://www.nomic.net/~test/phpwiki/index.php -- J. |
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From: Jeff D. <da...@da...> - 2001-06-14 00:46:50
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An=EDbal, The Spanish browse.html template was indeed screwed up. I'm not sure how= it got to be that way. In any case, your fixes are now checked into the stable branch of the CVS. Thank you very much for pointing out the problem. Jeff |
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From: <ar...@va...> - 2001-06-14 00:06:06
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Ops! Here it is the file I modified. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Dairiki" <da...@da...> To: "An=EDbal Rojas" <ar...@va...> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Bug in browse template spanish translation in version 1.2 > An=EDbal, > > I think you just sent the English version of browse.html. > Try again with your fixed Spanish version? > > Regards, > Jeff > |
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From: <ar...@va...> - 2001-06-13 23:50:03
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Hi, Found a little bug with the Edit link in the spanish translation. I think I fixed it, but chek it anyway. Best regards, great software. An=EDbal Rojas ar...@va... |
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From: J C L. <cl...@ka...> - 2001-06-13 05:59:16
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On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Adam Shand <la...@sp...> wrote: >> Aye, I'm not a great fan of SociaWikis, mostly because I don't >> think they work very well for that purpose (I'm an email guy). >> For collaborative documentation and development of a >> KnowledgeNase Wikis work exceptionally well. What I'm trying to >> do here is to marry a Wiki, mailing list archives and a K5-ish >> weblog. Early screenshot: ... > if you want another set of eyes and someone to install it and give > feedback i'd *LOVE* to help with this. Work permitting I hope to get a beta out this month (currently work does not look permitting). My user base is crying for it. There's not a whole lot left to do really: -- Finish up the auth supports (based of SourceForge's) -- Fix comment/reply threading (currently way too join happy) -- Finish implementing picon uploads -- Some DB minor normalising (need to norm the handling of WikiItems vs Comments/Replies). -- Bunch of small corner cases surrounding namespace management (side effects of the broken norming to be fixed above) -- Summary pages (tag lists, score lists, date lists, view pattern lists, graph tree models, etc). ... few other small things. > i assume you're writing it in php? Yes. > are you using a database back end? PostgresQL. Its currently very join happy which really needs to be handled. It slaughters the machine with decent hit rates (the target box is spidered regularly and fairly heavily). >> Oh yeah the comments are individual WikiItems as well (I've got >> HeirarchialWikiItems ala WikiItem/SubItem/SubItem with individual >> items able to appear in multiple places in the tree (abstract >> views), as well as the ability for a Item to embed/nest the >> contents of another WikiItem inside itself at display time (think >> quotes)). > this is almost exactly what i was thinking as well. the more i > thought about it the more i decided that it really all the > important tech was there and it was largely a ui design issue. <nod> I don't think I have the UI down. I know I'm not a HIL guy. To an extent I don't think the UI is as important as getting the access mode and view flexibility in there first, especially given that I'm basing off a technical (and therefore somewhat forgiving for the sake of features) audience. > i'd love to see what you've done. Soon I hope. -- J C Lawrence cl...@ka... ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows |
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From: Adam S. <la...@sp...> - 2001-06-13 02:59:00
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> Aye, I'm not a great fan of SociaWikis, mostly because I don't think > they work very well for that purpose (I'm an email guy). For > collaborative documentation and development of a KnowledgeNase Wikis > work exceptionally well. What I'm trying to do here is to marry a > Wiki, mailing list archives and a K5-ish weblog. Early screenshot: GOD YES! i'm an email guy as well and have been thinking about this for a long time. i'm not much of a coder but i've been a unix admin since '93 so i'm fairly clued. :) if you want another set of eyes and someone to install it and give feedback i'd *LOVE* to help with this. i assume you're writing it in php? are you using a database back end? > Oh yeah the comments are individual WikiItems as well (I've got > HeirarchialWikiItems ala WikiItem/SubItem/SubItem with individual > items able to appear in multiple places in the tree (abstract views), > as well as the ability for a Item to embed/nest the contents of > another WikiItem inside itself at display time (think quotes)). this is almost exactly what i was thinking as well. the more i thought about it the more i decided that it really all the important tech was there and it was largely a ui design issue. how do you merge these different forms of content management together for maximum results. i'd love to see what you've done. adam. |
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From: Steve W. <sw...@pa...> - 2001-06-11 02:44:25
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Thanks for the tour, Joel! On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Joel Uckelman wrote: > So, here's what looking around has suggested to me: > > 1. Should changes be stored incrementally, and old pages built from them? > Or should diffs be calculated from stored pages? The former conserves > storage at the expense of CPU cycles, the latter the opposite. Or maybe > incremental diffs and old pages should both be stored, period? This seems > like a basic design decision, rather than something that would be > user-configurable. I have a core belief about Wikis: they do not scale. They do not scale in terms of the number of users, that is. I think a Wiki can hold about as many active users as a mailing list; once you go beyond a certain number of daily posters to a mailing list, it's no longer feasible to read that mailing list. There's too much information and too low a signal to noise ration. So conserving cpu cycles is a non-issue (relativley... we are not going to start using bubble sorts!) Storage space, on the other hand, will only get cheaper and more vast as time goes on. So we will store whole pages and calculate diffs as needed. I think diffs are not needed much anyway. (I mean, there is a low demand for them vs. other features users use, like search. Diff is critically important to have though). My favorite diff implementation of all time is actually not in a Wiki but would serve as a good model for us to emulate: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/phpwiki/phpwiki/README.diff?r1=text&tr1=1.6&r2=text&tr2=1.8&diff_format=h I like the side-by-side comparison and the color coding. I've found this incredibly helpful when doing development. You can play with a tool called "sdiff" on a lot of Unix systems too, which will give you a simple monochrome side by side diff. > 2. Buttons/links associated with versioning (and everything else!) should > have obvious functions, or at least ones that can be determined after a few > tries. Duh. MoinMoin was a particularly egregious offender in this regard. > > 3. Diffs should be easy to read, but not so sparse as to omit useful > information. I like the way diffs are done in phpwiki right now. Good job, > guys. All credit to Jeff! I doubt we'd even have diffs without his commitment and amazing hacking abilities. > 5. Ability to access all revisions from a single page is a Good Thing. > Having to click a zillion times to get to the one you want is not. Again we could copy viewcvs.cgi: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/phpwiki/phpwiki/README Rather than clutter the reading page with a million links to do things, I think we're better off just having the "diff' link go to a page like the one above. > 6. The major/minor revision distinction would provide a good way to tag > pages that were altered, e.g., to correct typos. It could also be used by > someone malicious who wanted to draw attention away from revisions, though. > This, like all things Wiki, would depend on the goodwill of the user. With user auth, this problem would be rare, one would hope. > 7. How exactly does the current version of phpwiki decide what to archive? > I've noticed pages with archiving for the immediately previous version, a > version more than one change out of date, and no previous versions at all. > What's the deal? It goes like this: If you edit the page and you are not the previous author, the old version is archived. You can continue to edit the page forever after and it will not archive another version (as long as you come from the same IP address, which is how we track the author). This has turned out to be a problem for some people who are the sole users of the Wiki. This algorithm was taken right from the WikiWikiWeb itself. I think we'll go with the MeatBall approach of the "do not archive, these are small changes" option. Better to archive minor changes than to lose information. ~swain --- http://www.panix.com/~swain/ "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." -- Frank Zappa |
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From: J C L. <cl...@ka...> - 2001-06-10 23:46:42
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On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Adam Shand <la...@sp...> wrote: >> I tend to the view that forgiveness is a human construct and is >> therefore for humans, not machines, or if you wish, the dialectic >> opposite of SunirShah's parting comment. > i mostly agree with you. what i think is interesting is the > attempt to make a collaborative environment (in this case a wiki) > match a human social environment. groups of humans usually > forgive and forget over time (barring major transgressions), i > think the idea of making a computer forgive and forget is > potentially interesting. Its interesting but I think also an intellectual tar baby. As soon as you go down that road you are codifying personal human evaluations, which means that they are no longer personal but are now shared cultural expectations which are enforced on the individual beyond his real ability to counter. Aiiiie. >> And yes, I'd be a fan of WayBackMode (added to list of things to >> implement here along with per user PageTagging). > this would certainly be preferable for more technical or work > oriented wiki's. i'm not sure it would be of community based > wiki's. Aye, I'm not a great fan of SociaWikis, mostly because I don't think they work very well for that purpose (I'm an email guy). For collaborative documentation and development of a KnowledgeNase Wikis work exceptionally well. What I'm trying to do here is to marry a Wiki, mailing list archives and a K5-ish weblog. Early screenshot: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/wikitest.png Oh yeah the comments are individual WikiItems as well (I've got HeirarchialWikiItems ala WikiItem/SubItem/SubItem with individual items able to appear in multiple places in the tree (abstract views), as well as the ability for a Item to embed/nest the contents of another WikiItem inside itself at display time (think quotes)). > however until someone implements it we'll never know :) There is that. -- J C Lawrence cl...@ka... ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows |
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From: Adam S. <la...@sp...> - 2001-06-10 21:39:43
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> I tend to the view that forgiveness is a human construct and is > therefore for humans, not machines, or if you wish, the dialectic > opposite of SunirShah's parting comment. i mostly agree with you. what i think is interesting is the attempt to make a collaborative environment (in this case a wiki) match a human social environment. groups of humans usually forgive and forget over time (barring major transgressions), i think the idea of making a computer forgive and forget is potentially interesting. > And yes, I'd be a fan of WayBackMode (added to list of things to > implement here along with per user PageTagging). this would certainly be preferable for more technical or work oriented wiki's. i'm not sure it would be of community based wiki's. however until someone implements it we'll never know :) adam. |
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From: J C L. <cl...@ka...> - 2001-06-10 18:00:52
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On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Adam Shand <la...@sp...> wrote: >> Given the plumetting cost/MB I'd be more interested in >> implementing a hierarchial storage system where sufficiently old >> and non-current versions of content is moved to a secondary >> backing store, away from the primary copy, yet still accessible. > there are some interesting thoughts on the subject here: > http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?ForgiveAndForget I tend to the view that forgiveness is a human construct and is therefore for humans, not machines, or if you wish, the dialectic opposite of SunirShah's parting comment. I prefer humans to discriminate based on the full set of available data, not a partial set formed by an arbitrary and unexaminable (due to be unrecorded) editing of the data set. The problem then is data mining and establishing and maintaining ValuedInterpretations -- the things humans are actually good at. And yes, I'd be a fan of WayBackMode (added to list of things to implement here along with per user PageTagging). >> Heck, 20Gig of RW SCSI II is less than $200 no, even less if >> you're silly enough to go with IDE on a server. > ack! a scsi bigot! :) It works. -- J C Lawrence cl...@ka... ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows |
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From: Adam S. <la...@sp...> - 2001-06-10 16:36:32
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> Given the plumetting cost/MB I'd be more interested in implementing a > hierarchial storage system where sufficiently old and non-current > versions of content is moved to a secondary backing store, away from > the primary copy, yet still accessible. there are some interesting thoughts on the subject here: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?ForgiveAndForget > Heck, 20Gig of RW SCSI II is less than $200 no, even less if you're > silly enough to go with IDE on a server. ack! a scsi bigot! :) adam. |
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From: Reini U. <ru...@x-...> - 2001-06-10 11:33:24
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I've put this very good review onto http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/index.php?WikiVersioning Good work! |
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From: Joel U. <uck...@no...> - 2001-06-10 07:23:25
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In an effort to see what versioning features are embodied in other Wikis, I went to the list of Wiki implementations (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines ) and took the grand tour. Here's what I found. There aren't a lot of Wikis that have versioning; I made some notes about the ones that do. The notes became shorter as I went, mainly because I started seeing the same features repeated in the latter Wiki clones. Here goes: TWiki http://TWiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/WebHome Diffs are hard to read, too cluttered. The version links at the bottoms of pages provide quick access to the four most recent page versions as well as diffs from one to the next. The ">.." link will allow you to retrieve any version, as well as show diffs between any two versions. These diffs are incremental, though, e.g., if you want to see the diff between 1.30 and 1.1, you get all of the diffs in between, not a nice single diff. UseMod Wiki http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl "View Other Versions" link leads to a list of archived page versions, for which there are links to view full pages and diffs. Diffs are clean, easy to read. Diffs are always against current version, which is obnoxious if what you want is a diff between two non-current pages; moreover, this makes diffs with older pages just about useless, because the diffs are so huge. A neat feature is the way major and minor revisions are handled. The edit page has a checkbox for designating an edit a minor revision, in which case it's noted as such in the revision list. Also, there's something called an "author diff", the function of which I have yet to determine. Why Clublet http://clublet.com/c/c/why?page=HomePage I don't like their versioning system at all. There are VCR-like buttons for moving between versions, but apparently going from version 900 back to 500 would require 400 clicks. Also, the diff mechanism is too austere for my tastes---it shows you what's new, but not what's gone. The "gold bar" for marking new material isn't a bad idea, but then how do you mark something that has disappeared? Web Macro http://wiki.webmacro.org/WebMacro Previous versions are accessed via a "View previous version" link at page bottom which decrements the page version by one. Same too-many-clicks problem as Clublet above. No diffs. Wikki Tikki Tavi http://tavi.sourceforge.net/WikkiTikkiTavi "View document history" links to a version listing much like the Use Mod one. Diff is attractive, easy to read for someone who doesn't know anything about diffs. Any two versions may be checked to see a diff between them. Does this mean the diffs are generated on the fly? (If not, the number of stored diffs would grow exponentially.) The "Compute Difference" button makes me think so but I can't find it on their site. MoinMoin http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin Version links are tiny little icons in the upper right. It is not obvious what they do on first glance. The "Info" one contains a table of revisions. The diffs are all against the current version. Color coding is a good thing, I think. PikiePikie http://pikie.darktech.org/cgi/pikie?PikiePikie Previous versions are accessible via numbered links at the bottom of the page. Probably not a good solution if there are lots of revisions. No diffs. Swiki http://pbl.cc.gatech.edu/myswiki/ Uses strikeouts for diffs, not overly easy to read. (Little icons are neat, though). Previous versions are available in full, or as diffs with immediately prior and later versions. Button interface and large spacing is not overly attractive, and it is not obvious what buttons will do when viewing diffs. WikiWorks http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/VisualWorks Diffs are poor. History displays as a table, with links to old versions. END OF TOUR So, here's what looking around has suggested to me: 1. Should changes be stored incrementally, and old pages built from them? Or should diffs be calculated from stored pages? The former conserves storage at the expense of CPU cycles, the latter the opposite. Or maybe incremental diffs and old pages should both be stored, period? This seems like a basic design decision, rather than something that would be user-configurable. 2. Buttons/links associated with versioning (and everything else!) should have obvious functions, or at least ones that can be determined after a few tries. Duh. MoinMoin was a particularly egregious offender in this regard. 3. Diffs should be easy to read, but not so sparse as to omit useful information. I like the way diffs are done in phpwiki right now. Good job, guys. 4. Computing diffs between arbitrary versions on the fly (as in Wikki Tikki Tavi) is neat, and wouldn't be that resource intensive, since how often would anyone actually use that anyway? Of course, that may also be an argument against implementing it in the first place. 5. Ability to access all revisions from a single page is a Good Thing. Having to click a zillion times to get to the one you want is not. 6. The major/minor revision distinction would provide a good way to tag pages that were altered, e.g., to correct typos. It could also be used by someone malicious who wanted to draw attention away from revisions, though. This, like all things Wiki, would depend on the goodwill of the user. 7. How exactly does the current version of phpwiki decide what to archive? I've noticed pages with archiving for the immediately previous version, a version more than one change out of date, and no previous versions at all. What's the deal? -- J. |
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