Time direction of trees
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Hi everybody,
I am new to PGV, but in drawing trees, I noticed that time is running the wrong way around. Convention has it that earliest time starts left, and goes to the right as time goes by.
Very counterintuitive, the more as the real timeline as drawn by PGV, DOES go the right way around.
Is there a way of fixing this, and if not, waht file do I have to modify to make it go the way most people are used to?
Regards, Wim Vleeshhouwer
Willhelm, first can I suggest you are rather fixed in your views. "Convention has it..." and "... most people are used to" are strong terms. Whose convention, and who worked out that it was 'most people'?
I've never seen the way PGV draws charts as anything other than natural - and you're the first person I've seen here in 5 years to even comment on it.
That aside the answers to your question are:
1 - "Is there a way of fixing this" - not if you mean is there an option you can set differently.
2 - "waht file do I have to modify ? - that will depend which charts you are referring to, but most have a top level file (such as "pedigree.php") and a similar named file in /includes/controllers/ such as pedigree_ctrl.php. This will apply to the 'interactive tree, as well.
For interest, far from asking for a 'reverse-logic' dispaly, we have had more peoiple ask for a vertical lauout (oldest at the top, youngest at the bottom, or vice versa). I am pleased to see this is being developped for the next release as an option in the Pedigree chart.
I sympathize with Wilhelm, and I think the new option for the tree supports his complaint. Top-to-bottom and left-to-right are equivalent in my mind, so if the new display is considering oldest at the top, that is a reversal from the existing display of youngest at the left (maybe just for LTR languages). I also would expect to see oldest at the left (and on top, using that option).
Maybe I just visualize descendancy this way. Well, maybe Wilhelm and I do.
If we're casting 'votes', I'm with KIWI on the 'most' and "convention' criticism. While graphs and reports could be drawn almost any which-way, I'm not sure how a pedigree chart running right to left would be natural for me. I expect to scroll from top to bottom and left to right, not scroll to the bottom of a page and then have to click each time to see my ancestors.
I'm with KIWI too on the usefulness of the options in the Pedigree options, but having already used them, the Oldest at Top is frustrating and difficult to manuever - IMHO.
-Stephen
The new options are both "oldest at top" and "oldest at bottom".
I like them, but as we've always known, they have limitations on a screen. Beyond 3 generations they start to become very wide, and the "point of the triangle" is inevitably out of sight right from the start. It helps to use the 'no details' option, but that brings other limitations. This is why the 'interactive tree' was developed, to allow easy movement of the tree around the screen.
Kiwi,
You probably never read any Scientific magazines, where often enough timecharts are shown. Which way do they run, you think?
I haven't come accross any Genealogy program which does it any other way than I would like, and I have gone through quite a few programs in the 20 odd years I am doing this.
<<Convention has it that earliest time starts left, and goes to the right as time goes by>>
Agreed, but these are charts of relationships, rather than chronology.
For example, on the family.php page, would you also want the grandparents shown on the left of the parents, rather than on the right?
I must admit that the current layouts seem natural to me - but then I've been seeing them like this for several years. Fresh views from new users are always useful.
Wilhelm - perhaps you might like to look at all the (very many) pages/charts/reports/etc. that display info in a tree-like layout, and tell us whether you think that all/some of them need reversing?
(I'm not promising we'll change anything, but I think we ought to start by agreeing on what we're disagreeing about!)
I'm not sure which chart you're referring to.
The timeline chart starts earliest at the top, progessing in time to newest at the bottom.
The lifespan chart starts earliest on the left, progressing in time to newest on the right.
No other charts expressly display using a timeline. Most other charts are showing relationships, not time. And they're effectively like a tube map which shows sequences of stations (people) and not the absolute time (distances).
If say the pedigree chart were timeline based, the generations would end up be off set rather than being lined up. eg my gt gt gt grandparents were born over a spread of at least 20 years, but I'm happy that they're lined up to all be clearly my gt gt gt grandparents, even if the lastest born of them was born later that one (or more) of the next generation
Mark
The one chart you may find strange is the descendancy chart, as that doesn't look like the descendant charts you often see in old school text books, eg Royal family trees.
In its current format I actually find it difficult to use, but it's not so important to me.
But that starts with oldest at the top and works down as you'd expect.
Mark
Hi Greg Roach,
<Agreed, but these are charts of relationships, rather than chronology.>
So what else are relationships based on? Chronology!
Yes, I would like my Grandparents on the left of me, because they existed earlier in time than me.
I will have a look at all the treestructures, and let you know which ones need reversing. I usually have my display language as Dutch. as I do not know all the english equivalents, but I'll switch over to english and try and find my way.
I must say that I am very pleased with PGV, as it gives me a lot more flexibility in displaying my data, the speed is somewhat lacking, but that might be due to my server.
www.vleeshhouwer.nl/PHPGedview/
And to Mark Hattam,
No charts expressly use a timeline, correct, but you would like to find everything in chronological order, wouldn't you? That's what I'm talking about.
I also agree with you that the descendency chart is weird, I can't work may way through it, I than opt for the tree view, which is a lot better (except for the arrow of time!)
Regards, Wim.
To Greg Roach,
I just had a look at various trees/charts, and found the following:
1. Family Book Chart
2. Hourglas Chart
3. Interactive Tree
4. Pedigree Chart
5. Ancestry Chart
These are all going the wrong way (to me at least and all the science/technology people amongst us). I have not looked further yet, but the descendency chart is a bit cramped on the left side of the screen, couldn't there be a bit more horizontal space between the generations? Or, a descendency tree, going from left to right?
Hope to hear from you again, regards, Wim.
Well I've just looked through a number of program packages and ALL say "A pedigree chart starts with a single person and goes back in time"
http://www.misbach.org/pdfcharts/ for instance is wrong?
Certainly *I* do not expect these any other way around! And long time convention seems to agree?
"Convention has it that earliest time starts left",
As far as I have seen, all non-vertical pedigree trees flow from the left, especially in a browser for the following reason. English and most languages are LTR (left to right) languages, so reading the tree with the root on the left is more intuitive. The definition of a pedigree tree is focusing from the most recent person and moving back in the past, so starting from the left is what is expected. In addition, if it were reversed and the tree were too wide, the root of it would be beyond the scrollbars on the right. PGV does indeed display the tree the way you are describing for RTL (right to left) languages. To see a tree the way you expect it, change languages to Hebrew. In this mode the tree scrollbars are reversed. This would be very counterintuitive to the vast majority of users.
You're right about our languages being read from left to right, why else would most websites have their most important links on the lefthand side of their homepage? And why would I like to have my oldest ancestor there? For exactly that reason. What comes to the right of that, is all later in time. All trees that I mentioned above, are fantastic, but should be running the other way around.
If YOU want things the wrong way around then perhaps you need to look at re-writing all the layout code ;)
This is the first time that anybody has CLAIMED things are wrong. They are RIGHT for the current majority and no doubt most people will retain that layout?
Now if you can provide a link to a commercial genealogical site that provides material the other way around .....
Wilhelm
With some instances of over 15 generations, I certainly wouldn't want MY pedigree tree starting with my oldest known ancestor. It would take me a jillion clicks to reach someone I knew anything about. I think the purpose of a Pedigree chart is to look at one's self, and see from whence we sprang, one older generation at a time, just like the SW does now.
Personally, I think you've got a bee in your bonnet and can't seem to find a way to let it out as the buzzing and stinging have got you confused. Simply lift off the hat you are wearing and take a harder look at for what is purpose the charts are used. I think you'd find that most are properly oriented.
It has been asked before to present a tree, like a tree and the new configuration of pedigree from oldest at top certainly achieves this, but of course if it was truly oldest at the top we'd have to make the number of generations VERY large and the chart would be untenable, scrolling from top to bottom and left to right and left again over many,many pages.
-Stephen
Sorry for the mistake I made, the pedigree tree IS the RIGHT way around, case still holds for the others though.
Wim
You'll be trying to tell us the 'fan (or circle) chart ' is round the wrong way next!!!!
You said at the start "I am new to PGV" - so perhaps its time you listened to everyone here who have been using it (and many other genealogy systems) for a lot longer. We DON'T agree with you, and I'm prtty sure PGV will NOT be changed.
But the beauty of open source software is that you can re-write it to suit yourself. Please do that, and stop trying to tell everyone else what is right and wrong.
Personally, I like it the other way around, as most Dutch people do. Our ancestors is what we all started with, I think. ;>)
Our developer community is VERY international, and several Dutch people made significant contributions to PGV, including some of the charts that are "oriented the wrong way".
If you firmly believe that your expectations of "the correct way" are in fact correct, you're in disagreement with just about everybody else.
However, since PGV is very much an Open Source project, there's nothing to stop you from altering the source code of the various charts to change their orientation to suit your expectations. If you do this, please be sure to make the orientation a user-selectable option for each chart, and also PLEASE share your code.
Just because until now we haven't heard from anyone else about the chart orientation doesn't mean that there aren't others out there who agree with you. This is the main argument I have for making the orientation an option for each chart.
Wim,
From prior postings I think you would get the idea that most of the active PGV users do no agree with you. I'm another one. In fact I don't know how you would even start to make the presentation. After about 10 generations you now have over 1,000 "grandparents". Where would you start and how would you know which branch to follow to get to the person you are interested in. Starting with youngest generation and moving left to right to older generations is the only way to go for us users of left to right language.
In discussing charts, I would like to mention that I think consideration should be given to having the relationship chart default to show the oldest generation at the top rather than having to click the check box once the chart has been drawn. The relationship chart is the chart I most often use and I do find it confusing to follow complicated charts when viewed at the default setting with the youngest at the top. Having the "Line up the same generations" checked by default is good.
Stuart
A pedigree chart is NOT a timeline; it is a visual portrayal of parental relationships.
Father above and to the right, mother below and to the right, has been a "standard" among genealogists since before my parents were born. Nineteenth Century sample:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tuMMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA54
On the other hand, top-to-bottom is another "standard," less popular now than it used to be:
http://books.google.com/books?id=pe3rBH7FUvcC&jtp=10
Allright everybody, so most people do not agree with me, fine. Even if you have a lot of Dutch contributors to your site, and they don't complain, is probably that most people do not know about this bulletin board, and haven't asked any questions because of that.
I have been using Brothers Keeper for quite a nuber of years, and it produces the diagrams the way I prefer them. I wouldvery much like to have PHPGedview present them that way as well. Maybe a switch could be buid in to have it either way. That should please everybody I think. It seems to have been done in the vertical charts and trees, so it shouldn't take that much effort to do it in the horizontal layout as well, I hope.
I have switched on some RTL languages to see if they behave differently, but they show the charts and trees the same way as in LTR languages. Too bad.
I hope this wille end the discussion, since we are not getting anywhere here.
Goodbye, Wim.
It's been decades since I used Brother's Keeper, but back then all the charts I saw were the way most genealogists prefer them.
Wes, I agree. I just went to http://www.bkwin.net/samples.htm and had a look at a bunch of BK's sample "ancestry charts". They are all just like in PGV - youngest person on the left, oldest on the right.
Wim, if you are unable to change the code as you would like it yourself, your only course would be to post a Features Request (under the Tracker menu above here), but I'm afraid it will probably not be actioned. With Open Source software like this it is normal for developers to focus mainly on the things that interest them, and as you have seen, your proposal doesn't get many votes.