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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2007-01-05 13:31:00
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Nicolas François schrieb: [existing translations] >> Nicolas, could you .po them, please? > > OK. > I will probably start this week-end. Great! > Also, if you have the O'Reilly material, and if it matches (or nearly > matches) an existing English material, I can make a PO to initiate the > other POT already in the repository. I don't have that yet. I also has to be re-POdded before we could actually work with it, since O'Reilly use a different format for their books (FrameMaker, a SGML derivative). Greetings, Joergen |
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From: Nicolas <nek...@gm...> - 2007-01-05 01:32:33
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Hi, On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 01:34:15AM +0100, Joergen W. Lang wrote: > Hello to everyone, > > I have commited the existing translations I could find to the SVN > repository. I have left out the Japanese version, since the structure of > their documents takes a little more work (they have english and japanese > passages alongside in the POD files). > > Nicolas, could you .po them, please? OK. I will probably start this week-end. Also, if you have the O'Reilly material, and if it matches (or nearly matches) an existing English material, I can make a PO to initiate the other POT already in the repository. Cheers, -- Nekral |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2007-01-05 00:34:27
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Hello to everyone, I have commited the existing translations I could find to the SVN repository. I have left out the Japanese version, since the structure of their documents takes a little more work (they have english and japanese passages alongside in the POD files). Nicolas, could you .po them, please? I hope to be able to review the german .po files Nicolas created during the next few days. This should give us enough material to play with in the database. I guess, handling the sheer volume of material is a major task. BTW, thanks for the insightfull facts (statistics) on #perldoc2 on Wedneday. I will incorporate them with the rest of the stats on the Blog/Website. Greetings, Joergen |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-30 11:58:14
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Hi everybody, I'll be away until Monday or Tuesday. Thanks to you all. Keep up the good work and have a great start into 2007! Joergen |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-29 01:13:30
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Gregor Goldbach schrieb: > Joergen W. Lang schrieb: > >>>>> I don't see how any code might provide this since there's currently no >>>>> connection between the source document and its translations. >>>> True. Not yet. As soon as we have the (most recent) .po file in the >>>> DB whe can add "views" to it via Catalyst. >>> So Catalyst accesses both the database and the file system? Hm... I'd >>> rather see this in the database as well... >> Sorry - I don't quite understand. What do you mean by file system? Are >> you referring to the SVN directories? > > Yes. I assume with 'view' above you refer to the Model-View-Controller > abstraction in Catalyst. and so I did. but... > The current model of the web application I have in mind is that we have > .po files and importer and exporter code to connect the (local) database > to the (remote) subversion repository. correct. > I don't see where a Catalyst 'view' could help there. But, alas! I don't > know Catalyst very much ;) The Cat view shows/does whatever with the version of the pot which is stored in the DB. It does not connect to the SVN repository. Clear now? Joergen P.S.: #perldoc2 @ irc.perl.org is up and running... |
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From: Gregor G. <7go...@in...> - 2006-12-28 19:20:02
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Joergen W. Lang schrieb: >>>> I don't see how any code might provide this since there's currently no >>>> connection between the source document and its translations. > >>> True. Not yet. As soon as we have the (most recent) .po file in the >>> DB whe can add "views" to it via Catalyst. >> >> So Catalyst accesses both the database and the file system? Hm... I'd >> rather see this in the database as well... > > Sorry - I don't quite understand. What do you mean by file system? Are > you referring to the SVN directories? Yes. I assume with 'view' above you refer to the Model-View-Controller abstraction in Catalyst. The current model of the web application I have in mind is that we have .po files and importer and exporter code to connect the (local) database to the (remote) subversion repository. I don't see where a Catalyst 'view' could help there. But, alas! I don't know Catalyst very much ;) Gregor |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-28 15:06:51
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you can come back now... :o)) Joergen |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-28 13:47:27
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Hi all, more good news: We have our own IRC channel on irc.perl.org! And the name is ... *ta-daa* ... #perldoc2. I'll probably be hanging out there until about 07:30 *pm* CET today so don't hesitate to join if you read this in time. Greetings, Joergen |
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From: Gregor G. <7go...@in...> - 2006-12-27 20:53:56
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Joergen W. Lang schrieb: >> I think it is essential that translators see the paragraph they >> translate (using the web front-end) :-) > > Sure - think "split-screen". > > 1. top "screen": english original of paragraph > 2. bottom "screen": translation > >> I don't see how any code might provide this since there's currently no >> connection between the source document and its translations. > > True. Not yet. As soon as we have the (most recent) .po file in the DB > whe can add "views" to it via Catalyst. So Catalyst accesses both the database and the file system? Hm... I'd rather see this in the database as well... >> We suggest we create a new table 'source document' and add a row >> 'source' to the table 'document' referring to it. > > Why not storing the source in the document table directly? It's just a feeling that one ought to be able to distinguish source documents and translations thereof. Gregor |
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From: Gregor G. <7go...@in...> - 2006-12-27 20:50:28
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Joergen W. Lang schrieb: >> Basically this was also a simple test if I have write permissions for >> the repository ;) >> >> Gregor > > Sure you do. Please use more comprehensive commit messages in the > future. I know, there is always 'svn log' but I'm soo lazy... Sure will. I'm just used to use 'trac' to see what files are affected... Gregor |
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From: Gregor G. <7go...@in...> - 2006-12-27 20:48:28
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Joergen W. Lang schrieb:
> the whole point in using .po is that we do not have to split up the
> .pods ourselves.
*cough*
--- snip ---
$/="";
while(<>) {
s/\n\n/\n/g;
print $_;
}
--- snip ---
;-)
> Since an online-translation is only one of two options (people should
> also be able to check out "their" document, translate it, and resubmit).
I wasn't aware of that option. Just thought the web-application would be
the only way to translate...
> (I guess I really have to get the wiki going...:o)
Well, yes. Did I say 'trac' already (which also has a nice 'changeset'
feature that shows what files are affected by a revision)? ;)
Gregor
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-27 20:44:05
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Gregor Goldbach schrieb: > Joergen W. Lang schrieb: > >> you fixed a typo in Rev #53. Can you tell us, which file/typo you fixed? > > tools/make_languge_map.pl -> tools/make_language_map.pl > > Basically this was also a simple test if I have write permissions for > the repository ;) > > Gregor Sure you do. Please use more comprehensive commit messages in the future. I know, there is always 'svn log' but I'm soo lazy... J. |
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From: Gregor G. <7go...@in...> - 2006-12-27 20:39:17
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Joergen W. Lang schrieb: > you fixed a typo in Rev #53. Can you tell us, which file/typo you fixed? tools/make_languge_map.pl -> tools/make_language_map.pl Basically this was also a simple test if I have write permissions for the repository ;) Gregor |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-27 16:30:19
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Hi Gregor, you fixed a typo in Rev #53. Can you tell us, which file/typo you fixed? Thanx, Joergen |
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From: Simon D. <ja...@er...> - 2006-12-27 15:59:07
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On Wed, Dec 27, 2006 at 04:21:46PM +0100, Joergen W. Lang wrote: [snip] > the whole point in using .po is that we do not have to split up the > .pods ourselves. .po is an internationally accepted standard and a lot > of editors (Emacs, etc.) support it. > > Since an online-translation is only one of two options (people should > also be able to check out "their" document, translate it, and resubmit). > > There is no real "need" for .po - but it makes life a lot easier because > it provides a lot of features we need, anyway (paragraph-splitting, > fuzzy marks, id-ing for paragraphs, etc.). so why reinvent the wheel? > I'd say we do need .po files as we need an exchange point that is accessible and transaction safe, so: .po files under revision control. > (I guess I really have to get the wiki going...:o) > Doesn't the word itself implies _that_ when you say it? ;-) > Gregor Goldbach schrieb: [snip] > > now that we have a basic database layout and a few tiny scripts, I was > > wondering why we need .po-files. > > > > We have the original paragraphs from the POD-files and the translated > > paragraphs. The translated POD-files can be generated by concatenating > > the translated paragraphs. I don't see any need for .po-files at all. [snip] And how is it... are we top-posting or prefer a flamewar about why there's no reason to top post?! *scnr* Kind regards, Simon |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-27 15:30:42
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Gregor Goldbach schrieb: > Hi list, > > I think it is essential that translators see the paragraph they > translate (using the web front-end) :-) Sure - think "split-screen". 1. top "screen": english original of paragraph 2. bottom "screen": translation > I don't see how any code might provide this since there's currently no > connection between the source document and its translations. True. Not yet. As soon as we have the (most recent) .po file in the DB whe can add "views" to it via Catalyst. > We suggest we create a new table 'source document' and add a row > 'source' to the table 'document' referring to it. Why not storing the source in the document table directly? > I don't think we stated this somewhere: A translated paragraph has the > same id as the original paragraph in order to be able to generate the > translated POD easily (see other mail I sent just a few minutes ago). plus status information. Joergen |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-27 15:21:54
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Hi Gregor, the whole point in using .po is that we do not have to split up the .pods ourselves. .po is an internationally accepted standard and a lot of editors (Emacs, etc.) support it. Since an online-translation is only one of two options (people should also be able to check out "their" document, translate it, and resubmit). There is no real "need" for .po - but it makes life a lot easier because it provides a lot of features we need, anyway (paragraph-splitting, fuzzy marks, id-ing for paragraphs, etc.). so why reinvent the wheel? (I guess I really have to get the wiki going...:o) Joergen Gregor Goldbach schrieb: > Hi list, > > now that we have a basic database layout and a few tiny scripts, I was > wondering why we need .po-files. > > We have the original paragraphs from the POD-files and the translated > paragraphs. The translated POD-files can be generated by concatenating > the translated paragraphs. I don't see any need for .po-files at all. > > Gregor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > _______________________________________________ > perldoc2-developers mailing list > per...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/perldoc2-developers > |
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From: Gregor G. <7go...@in...> - 2006-12-26 21:08:58
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Hi list, I think it is essential that translators see the paragraph they translate (using the web front-end) :-) I don't see how any code might provide this since there's currently no connection between the source document and its translations. We suggest we create a new table 'source document' and add a row 'source' to the table 'document' referring to it. I don't think we stated this somewhere: A translated paragraph has the same id as the original paragraph in order to be able to generate the translated POD easily (see other mail I sent just a few minutes ago). Gregor |
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From: Gregor G. <7go...@in...> - 2006-12-26 20:54:51
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Hi list, now that we have a basic database layout and a few tiny scripts, I was wondering why we need .po-files. We have the original paragraphs from the POD-files and the translated paragraphs. The translated POD-files can be generated by concatenating the translated paragraphs. I don't see any need for .po-files at all. Gregor |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-23 22:06:08
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Hi everybody, this is to wish you all a nice and stress-free christmas. Have a great new year! Joergen P.S.: the project is moving. We are now at revision #50 in the SVN repository and there is no end in sight. I have bumped the project status to (2) Pre-Alpha since the first bits of working code are already there. |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-12 16:50:27
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Just a quick note, since for of our developers coincidentally reside in the Hamburg (Germany) area we have decided to meet during the regular Hamburg.pm meeting tomorrow (Wed 13 Dec 2006). We meet at Restaurant Lotosblüte Löwenstr. 22 20251 Hamburg "official" starting time is: 19:00h CET. Watch out for the camel on the table... Joergen |
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-12 15:28:07
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Nicolas François schrieb: > On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 10:59:19AM +0100, Robert 'phaylon' Sedlacek wrote: >> Hi Joergen, >> >> Joergen W. Lang wrote: >> >>> Pootle appeared to promising but didn't want to install on my >>> Debian/Sarge machine without a kernel change or a lot of manual >>> instllation. Or does it make more sense to just use that? I'm still not >>> 100% sure. >> What did it need _that_ for? > > It is "just" a dependency issue. Exactly. > The python modules packaging changed between Sarge and the current > Debian release, so pootle requires a new python infrastructure, which > probably requires the new libc, etc. Also, Python 2.5 did not like to install from source. Since the Debian machine is my production server I do not like to mess around with it too much. I can try to run it on my local machine (Mac OS X) but that would only give us *very* limited access since I share the DSL line with three other parties. I will meet with a Python expert tonight. Maybe he can shed some light on the situation. So, if we wanted to use Pootle as the platform we are left with three options: 1. Get perldoc 2.0 onto the "official" wordforge/Pootle server 2. Find some other webspace provider with the neccessary infrastructure 3. Build our own from scratch (your ideas here) > Pootle can be installed on its own (it requires jToolkit, which requires > kid and elementtree). Downloaded these. Will give it another try later today. > Regarding the infrastructure, except if we want to have mass translation >>from a web interface, the subversion interface + commit logs for reviews > + export on a web interface is perfect for me. Hmmm, maybe a compromise will suffice. Use Pootle as long as we have to and later migrate to our own platform. I will contact the Pootles by mail and see what they have to say about it. Greetings, Joergen |
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From: Nicolas <nek...@gm...> - 2006-12-12 13:08:48
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On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 10:59:19AM +0100, Robert 'phaylon' Sedlacek wrote: > Hi Joergen, > > Joergen W. Lang wrote: > > > Pootle appeared to promising but didn't want to install on my > > Debian/Sarge machine without a kernel change or a lot of manual > > instllation. Or does it make more sense to just use that? I'm still not > > 100% sure. > > What did it need _that_ for? It is "just" a dependency issue. The python modules packaging changed between Sarge and the current Debian release, so pootle requires a new python infrastructure, which probably requires the new libc, etc. Pootle can be installed on its own (it requires jToolkit, which requires kid and elementtree). Regarding the infrastructure, except if we want to have mass translation from a web interface, the subversion interface + commit logs for reviews + export on a web interface is perfect for me. Regard, -- Nekral |
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From: Robert 'p. S. <rs...@47...> - 2006-12-12 09:59:32
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Hi Joergen,
Joergen W. Lang wrote:
> Specifically there is one point I did not think of:
>
> There should be versioning/a backup facility for the translations. Which
> more or less means a combination of a database-based storage for recent
> versions and a SVN repository (which we already have!) as a
> "backend-backend". (...unless we wanted to re-implement versioning
> within the DB.)
Well, if we're going to keep the structure and contents in the database,
versioning isn't _that_ much to add. It would also keep everything in
one place and backups should include the versioning IMO.
> Generic/Specific Framework
>
> The focus should stay on the translation of the perl documentation for 5
> and 6. If there is a chance to build it so it allows future extensions
> for other languages - fine. If not we should not worry too much.
I don't see anything that would hinder other uses, except we start
hardcoding stuff.
> Pootle appeared to promising but didn't want to install on my
> Debian/Sarge machine without a kernel change or a lot of manual
> instllation. Or does it make more sense to just use that? I'm still not
> 100% sure.
What did it need _that_ for?
gr.,
Robert
--
# Robert 'phaylon' Sedlacek
# Perl 5/Catalyst Developer in Hamburg, Germany
{ EMail => ' rs...@47... ', Web => ' http://474.at ' }
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From: Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...> - 2006-12-11 23:31:59
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Hi, Sorry for being late with my reply. I'm working on the german translation of the "CSS Cookbook" for O'Reilly. That eats a lot of my time. The Actual Subject Specifically there is one point I did not think of: There should be versioning/a backup facility for the translations. Which more or less means a combination of a database-based storage for recent versions and a SVN repository (which we already have!) as a "backend-backend". (...unless we wanted to re-implement versioning within the DB.) Generic/Specific Framework The focus should stay on the translation of the perl documentation for 5 and 6. If there is a chance to build it so it allows future extensions for other languages - fine. If not we should not worry too much. Pootle/Transdict/Rosetta I had a closer look at Pootle and Transdict. Especially Transdict looked interesting at first glance since it's written in Perl. I thought it might serve as a starting point but the coding appears to be dating back to Perl 4 with hardly any documentation/comments in the code. The application is based on .cgi files that have to be in the document root... Nah. Rather not. Pootle appeared to promising but didn't want to install on my Debian/Sarge machine without a kernel change or a lot of manual instllation. Or does it make more sense to just use that? I'm still not 100% sure. Also, since it's written Python, changes, alterations, extensions would not be as easy for us as with our "native" language, Perl. Apart from that, if we used Pootle, we would loose the "promotion" effect. But I learned a few important lessons from their approach: - document as much as you can - don't announce or link to features that are not there, yet Their specification is very well organized and will definitely be a good source of inspiration for the perldoc 2.0 spec 0.3. So much for now, will be back, soon with more info, Joergen Nicolas François schrieb: > Hi, > > Just a note about the specifications. > > Building a generic translation framework is something quite > difficult, and other projects are already working on it: Rosetta, > Pootle, Transdict, etc. > > IIRC, the specifications for Rosetta are publicly available (but the > implementation is not free). The Pootle's specifications are publicly > available > (http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/wordforge/functional_specificaions) > > > They may be worth reading if you want to build a translation > infrastructure . > > Best Reagrds, |
