perldoc2-developers — perldoc 2.0 - International Perl Documentation - developers

Re: [perldoc2-developers] General Questions

[Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...>]

Hi everybody,

sorry for being so quiet over the weekend. I was attending to my other 
job as a musician. Just back this morning 04:30 CET. Had to get some sleep.

I will try to answer/comment on your postings as neccessary over the 
next couple of days, so please stay tuned.

Robert 'phaylon' Sedlacek schrieb:
> Good evening again, everyone;
> 
> If I understood Joergen correctly at the last Hamburg.pm meeting, he's
> going to write up a specification on what the application should be doing,
> on the workflows and what the overall ideas are. So this is just a bunch
> of general questions I'd like to bring into discussion.

Correct. I have scheduled the write-up for today.

> * Service or Application?
> 
> Is the application itself thought as a service to the perl community,
> hosted probably under the *.perl.org domain space, or should we focus on
> building a standalone-capable application and tools to work with it? As a
> simple service focused on translation of the perl documentation, it is
> probably easier to handle, but the standalone package way would also have
> some advantages. Especially that other projects can use this technology
> for providing a translation facility for their documentations. I'd think
> of things like Plagger, Catalyst, DBIx-Class and other projects with a
> potentially large international target group. This might also have some
> implications on the spec though, as a method to refactor larger parts of
> the docbase might be helpful, even if perldoc itself is not really
> affected by this phenomenon.

The initial idea was to have a platform dedicated mainly (but not 
exclusively) to the perl community. So to prepare the project for future 
growth and extensibility it is probably the wiser choice to go more for 
the "application" way of things.

I think, generally it is a good idea to be as open to other projects as 
possible. On the other hand, there is Rosetta 
(https://launchpad.net/rosetta) which aims at more or less the same 
goals (and also uses gettext/.po). It already has a huge user/translator 
base plus *very* solid funding. Rosetta is part of the Ubuntu project.

The major difference between Rosetta and our project is our focus on 
documentation rather than dialogues, program messages, etc.

Having said this, I guess that Rosetta can still be a good source of 
inspiration. Analyzing their approach is another piece of work I will 
have to do...

As for the hosting I agree with ask Bjoern Hansen who is responsible for 
perl.org. He said:

   "I think the *.perldoc.perl.org sites should be the
    finished copy for end-users in all cases though;
    the translation tools can run anywhere."

(I was asking about a possibility to have language specific subdomains 
like 'fr.perldoc.perl.org')

Interestingly enough we actually have a working platform already: the 
SVN repository on sourceforge. It is just not really useable by 'end 
users', aka translators.

Frank Seitz of Hamburg.pm suggested a while ago a database driven 
approach. That might be more maintainable/extensible than the SVN-based 
approach.

Any SQL experts around?

> * Which Platform?
> 
> This question is rather web-development-wise. Personally, I'm pretty much
> favoring Catalyst these days. But I might be the only one accustomed to
> this framework in here. As I see it, there would be various possibilities
> (Catalyst, Maypole, Jifty, CGI-Application, plain CGI, and probably
> others). So, what's the plan in this regards, and how do you guys see
> this?

As the platform (or - at least the 'interface') will be mostly web-based 
this is going to be a key decision. I think the choice should be based 
on the following:

- extensibility
   (add natural and programming languages, subprojects...)
- maintainability
   (database, forums, resources)
- security
   (the more people use it, the bigger the chance that someone
   breaks it accidentally)
- stableness
   (same as above)
- simpleness
   (both in structure as in useability)

> Ok, it's been just two questions, but maybe someone else has something to
> add :)

Only two - but two *very important* questions. Thanks, Robert.

As I said, I will try to come up with some ideas by tomorrow.

Greetings to y'all,

Joergen

[perldoc2-developers] General Questions

[Robert 'p. S. <rs...@47...>]

Good evening again, everyone;

If I understood Joergen correctly at the last Hamburg.pm meeting, he's
going to write up a specification on what the application should be doing=
,
on the workflows and what the overall ideas are. So this is just a bunch
of general questions I'd like to bring into discussion.

* Service or Application?

Is the application itself thought as a service to the perl community,
hosted probably under the *.perl.org domain space, or should we focus on
building a standalone-capable application and tools to work with it? As a
simple service focused on translation of the perl documentation, it is
probably easier to handle, but the standalone package way would also have
some advantages. Especially that other projects can use this technology
for providing a translation facility for their documentations. I'd think
of things like Plagger, Catalyst, DBIx-Class and other projects with a
potentially large international target group. This might also have some
implications on the spec though, as a method to refactor larger parts of
the docbase might be helpful, even if perldoc itself is not really
affected by this phenomenon.

* Which Platform?

This question is rather web-development-wise. Personally, I'm pretty much
favoring Catalyst these days. But I might be the only one accustomed to
this framework in here. As I see it, there would be various possibilities
(Catalyst, Maypole, Jifty, CGI-Application, plain CGI, and probably
others). So, what's the plan in this regards, and how do you guys see
this?


Ok, it's been just two questions, but maybe someone else has something to
add :)

gr.,
Robert

--=20
# Robert 'phaylon' Sedlacek
# Perl 5/Catalyst Developer in Hamburg, Germany
{ EMail =3D> ' rs...@47... ', Web =3D> ' http://474.at ' }

Re: [perldoc2-developers] Meet the team

[Nicolas <nek...@gm...>]

Hello all,

I'm resending this mail, with the "From" address subscribed to the list.
Please ignore my other answer (no need to moderate it).

On Thu, Nov 09, 2006 at 01:57:46PM +0100, Joergen W. Lang wrote:
> Hello and welcome everybody,

Thank you J=F6rgen for setting up this project.

> Nicolas Fran=E7ois, aka 'nekral':
>=20
> *Nicolas*, also know as 'nekral' on sourceforge, is the current=20
> maintainer of po4a, a tool that converts documentation from multiple=20
> formats (POD, to mention just one) into a gettext-compatible format and=
=20
> back.
>=20
> perldoc 2.0 uses po4a extensively to convert the original .pod-files=20
> into gettext-pot for ease of translation and mainteneance.

I've made a Makefile to call po4a and update the POTs, POs, and
translations.

        http://nekral.homelinux.net/perldoc2/

You can have a look at it and see how it works (I took the translations
from the existing French translations

I also have the French POs for version 5.6.2 and 5.9.4, but I would like
to make tests for merging from a version to the other (I did it manually,
but would like to do it in the makefile). The makefile also lack a rule t=
o
detect strings translated differently from one PO to the other.

The Makefile has rules like all-pots, all-update-po, all-translate

update_pots_fr, translate_fr, update_po_fr
or even update_pots_fr_5.8.8, translate_fr_5.8.8 and update_po_fr_5.8.8

It can also show statistics: all-stats, stats_fr and stats_fr_5.8.8

The versions and languages are auto detected.

I will commit this proposal if we agree on the hierarchy it creates in th=
e
'translations' directory.

> Paul Gaborit, aka 'gaborit':
>=20
> I am very happy to see *Paul* join the team. Paul seems to be the only=20
> survivor of the french translation project which has started some years=
=20
> ago as a joined effort of the french perl newsgroup. He still maintains=
=20
> the french repository.

In addition to helping in the infrastructure, I will also happily
participate in the translation and review process of the French
translation.



Answering Herbert's question, po4a extracts the strings from the English
pod, put them in a PO file, and once the PO file is translated, it can
reinject the translated strings in the POD structure (hence generating a
translated POD).

It eases the maintenance of translations because it automates the
update of a translation from one version to the other.

When po4a is run on a later version, if some of the extracted strings are
the same, then these strings are already translated. If they are just a
little bit different, then they are marked as "fuzzy" (which means the
translation needs to be reviewed), and new strings are also detected.

It can also ease the translation because it can detect strings used in
different files.


Other advantage inherent to the use of a PO file are:
 * it is a common format for translators,
 * I like it for reviewing the translations (you do not only review the
   translation looking for typos, you check that the translation matches
   the English original text).
 * You can translate parts of a document (the translated document will
   then be a mix of English and translated text). This means that if a
   translator vanish, we can still distribute an accurate documentation.
   (This point is configurable; some people do not like it)

Another note: if an existing translation exist, po4a can try to reuse it
to initialize the first POs (that's what I did with the French
translation to test the infrastructure).

I'm stopping here my po4a advertisement.

Cheers,
--=20
Nekral

Re: [perldoc2-developers] Meet the team

[herbert b. <dei...@we...>]

>
>
> Herbert Breunung, aka 'sir=5Flichtkind':
>
> The first one to join the team was *Herbert*, known as 'sir=5Flichtkind'
> in sourceforge. Herbert is involved in creating what might well be the
> 'kernel' of the documentation for Perl6.
>
> He also is an active member of the german Perl community and contributor=

> to the translation efforts on perl-community.org. Herbert also is
> involved in the developement of PCE (now called kephra for various
> reasons). Apart from being able to do translations to german (and
> probably czech) he is working on making kephra fit for the creation of
> translations.

hallo gentleman,
yes i do speak german (wie die meissten hier :) and czech) and do also wri=
te an text editor in perl, currently called kephra. as mentioned, im willi=
ng to tranlate and help to build a tool that can support our translation e=
ffort but i dont think that this should be a kephra module, because it doe=
snt support such things as modules yet and is based an scintilla wich dont=
 help much here nevertheless i believe that this will be good idea later.

i heard that we have po4a dev on board but what exactly does that program,=
 the project page says :

Po4a eases translation work, and in particular the maintenance of translat=
ions, using gettext tools on areas where they were not expected like docum=
entation.

...which dont answers my questions

the tool j=F6rgen and me talked about is a little crossplatform gui app (of =
course with wx, i prefer that) that should serve as editor , down and uplo=
ad from cvs, maybe also in other ways as mark as proof read .... a.s.o.  s=
uggestions are welcome. but so far there all just thoughts and im not fast=
 nor have a turbo productivy mode but together we shurely faster.

so gentleman lets do some great stuff. i think we will need also some russ=
ian, spanish and portugise speakin people.

peace
herbert

PS. i have reposted this to be visible now so please dont consider the oth=
er pending mail
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F
"Ein Herz f=FCr Kinder" - Ihre Spende hilft! Aktion: www.deutschlandsegelt.d=
e
Unser Dankesch=F6n: Ihr Name auf dem Segel der 1. deutschen America's Cup-Ya=
cht!

Re: [perldoc2-developers] Meet the team

[Robert 'p. S. <rs...@47...>]

Good morning everybody,

Joergen W. Lang said:
> *Robert* is also an active member of Hamburg.pm. He has also opted to
> help with the creation of the framework. Although he was born in
> Austria, he has now accustomed to the harsh climate of Germany's north.
> If we are nice to him, he might be providing the Austrian translation.

Actually, we speak German too :) Btw, I already have an SF account, I jus=
t
had to find it again, since it's last usage lies a while back:

  http://sourceforge.net/users/dunkelheit/

gr.,
Robert

--=20
# Robert 'phaylon' Sedlacek
# Perl 5/Catalyst Developer in Hamburg, Germany
{ EMail =3D> ' rs...@47... ', Web =3D> ' http://474.at ' }

Re: [perldoc2-developers] Meet the team

[<pl...@pa...>]

Moin moin

> "Software Artificer" - someone who performs fireworks show - but  
> with software.
Fireworks..?

Artificer \Ar*tif"i*cer\, n. [Cf. F. artificier, fr. LL. artificiarius.]
   1. An artistic worker; a mechanic or manufacturer; one whose  
occupation requires
      skill or knowledge of a particular kind, as a silversmith.
   3. A cunning or artful fellow. [Obs.] --B. Jonson.
   Syn: Artisan; artist. See {Artisan}.
n 1: someone who is the first to think of or make something [syn:  
{inventor}, {discoverer}]
   2: a skilled worker who practices some trade or handicraft [syn:  
{craftsman}, {artisan}, {journeyman}]

I'l looking forward to helping this project.

Regards,
Jörg

Re: [perldoc2-developers] Meet the team

[Nicolas <nic...@ce...>]

Hello all,

On Thu, Nov 09, 2006 at 01:57:46PM +0100, Joergen W. Lang wrote:
> Hello and welcome everybody,

Thank you J=F6rgen for setting up this project.

> Nicolas Fran=E7ois, aka 'nekral':
>=20
> *Nicolas*, also know as 'nekral' on sourceforge, is the current=20
> maintainer of po4a, a tool that converts documentation from multiple=20
> formats (POD, to mention just one) into a gettext-compatible format and=
=20
> back.
>=20
> perldoc 2.0 uses po4a extensively to convert the original .pod-files=20
> into gettext-pot for ease of translation and mainteneance.

I've made a Makefile to call po4a and update the POTs, POs, and
translations.

    http://nekral.homelinux.net/perldoc2/

You can have a look at it and see how it works (I took the translations
from the existing French translations=20

I also have the French POs for version 5.6.2 and 5.9.4, but I would like
to make tests for merging from a version to the other (I did it manually,
but would like to do it in the makefile). The makefile also lack a rule t=
o
detect strings translated differently from one PO to the other.

The Makefile has rules like all-pots, all-update-po, all-translate

update_pots_fr, translate_fr, update_po_fr
or even update_pots_fr_5.8.8, translate_fr_5.8.8 and update_po_fr_5.8.8

It can also show statistics: all-stats, stats_fr and stats_fr_5.8.8

The versions and languages are auto detected.

I will commit it if we agree on the hierarchy it creates in translations

> Paul Gaborit, aka 'gaborit':
>=20
> I am very happy to see *Paul* join the team. Paul seems to be the only=20
> survivor of the french translation project which has started some years=
=20
> ago as a joined effort of the french perl newsgroup. He still maintains=
=20
> the french repository.

In addition to helping in the infrastructure, I will also happily
participate in the translation and review process of the French
translation.

Cheers,
--=20
Nekral

[perldoc2-developers] Meet the team

[Joergen W. L. <joe...@gm...>]

Hello and welcome everybody,

let me express my gratitude to all of you for joining the team of 
perldoc 2.0. Since this is quite a new project I would like to take the 
opportunity to introduce you to each other. Please feel free to correct 
me if I'm mistaken or missing out on some facts.


Herbert Breunung, aka 'sir_lichtkind':

The first one to join the team was *Herbert*, known as 'sir_lichtkind' 
in sourceforge. Herbert is involved in creating what might well be the 
'kernel' of the documentation for Perl6.

He also is an active member of the german Perl community and contributor 
to the translation efforts on perl-community.org. Herbert also is 
involved in the developement of PCE (now called kephra for various 
reasons). Apart from being able to do translations to german (and 
probably czech) he is working on making kephra fit for the creation of 
translations.


Nicolas François, aka 'nekral':

*Nicolas*, also know as 'nekral' on sourceforge, is the current 
maintainer of po4a, a tool that converts documentation from multiple 
formats (POD, to mention just one) into a gettext-compatible format and 
back.

perldoc 2.0 uses po4a extensively to convert the original .pod-files 
into gettext-pot for ease of translation and mainteneance.


Paul Gaborit, aka 'gaborit':

I am very happy to see *Paul* join the team. Paul seems to be the only 
survivor of the french translation project which has started some years 
ago as a joined effort of the french perl newsgroup. He still maintains 
the french repository.


Jörg Plate, aka 'patterner':

*Jörg*, one of the Hamburg.pm regulars calls himself "Software 
Artificer" - someone who performs fireworks show - but with software. 
Jörg has volunteered to help in creation the framework for the actual 
translation platform. Seeing him join put me under some pressure since 
now I have to switch from 'abstract' mode to 'practical'. Expect some 
real code, soon.

Also on the list, but not (yet?) on sourceforge is

Robert Sedlacek:

*Robert* is also an active member of Hamburg.pm. He has also opted to 
help with the creation of the framework. Although he was born in 
Austria, he has now accustomed to the harsh climate of Germany's north. 
If we are nice to him, he might be providing the Austrian translation.

Joergen W. Lang, aka 'joergen_lang':

I am working as a freelance translator for O'Reilly Germany since 1999. 
I have since then co-translated about 14 books like 'Learning Perl', 
'Perl Hacks', 'Perl in a nutshell' to name but a few. I am a Perl hacker 
since 1996. The idea of working on the translation of the Perl docs was 
lingering around for quite some time.

On the 2006 Euro OSCON in Brussels I had the chance to talk to Damian 
Conway and 'Barbie', two leading figures in the world of [Pp]erl.

Both strongly encouraged me in not only translating the docs but also 
creating a common platform for the translation to other languages. So, 
there you have it! ;o)


Again, welcome to you all and a big 'thank you, merci, danke' for 
joining and helping with the various aspects of this project.


Greetings from Hamburg, Germany,

Joergen