[OpenJade-devel] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20Draft=20Response=20to=20Eric=20Raymond=27s=20DocBook=20Demystifcation=20Linux=20HOWTO?=

[<sp...@in...>]

>Below is my suggested letter to ESR.

Excuses for replying so late to this message of yours, Ian.
I really hate when people don't reply to those messages that have some th=
oughts
on them, and I am not going to fall on the same error.
I keep in my memories the effort of T. C. Shipley compiling the minutes
of the discussions on the lists, just to fall into oblivion.
I think that kind of messages like the one Ian is proposing are very inmp=
ortant
to generate as a community, to correct the present misconception that SGM=
L
is dead, that DSSSL is too complicated and unuseful, and that XML is the
solution for everything.

By the way, lots of thanks for creating an OpenJade domain (with your mon=
ey!!!).
Do you have any more spare for me? :) Really, thank you. I consider it a
very good idea.

>- I want ESR's document to be useful to its readers and supportive of
>openjade - so I didn't want to get bogged into SGML v XML arguments
>which while of great interest and relevance aren't germane to the
>production of great looking documents marked up in DocBook.

That same idea was transmitted to me when Paul Tyson reviewed my communic=
ation
for Extreme. The idea is not to oppose SGML to XML. That is a lost battle=
.
Because both seek the same objectives, with a different approach. I, pers=
onally,
prefer SGML, but I don't see XML as totally wrong.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Dear Eric
>
>While I generally look forward to and obtain much enjoyment from your
...
>You are doing a great disservice to the openjade community of developers=

...
>I am not aware of you making any attempt to contact the openjade

I don't consider offensive nor rude the beginning of the letter.
I consider, if you write something to inform others about something, you
MUST first inform yourself, or shut up. It's better not to write anything=

rather than writing lies. Yor words make it clear that OpenJade people ar=
e
angry for being forgotten in such an obvious way. And this kind of texts
make possible collaborators run from us, instead of help us finding more
help.

>On SGML
>-------
>
>From the point of view of a DocBook user I broadly agree that XML should=

>be used instead of SGML. However, I would make the following
>observations:

I completely disagree with this statement. I write everything using docbo=
ok,
and I need sometimes marked sections because I write in spanish and then
translate into english, and I like to keep both versions. With XML the so=
lution
is not elegant at all. Perhaps it can be argued that SGML's marked sectio=
ns
aren't neither the best solution.

>From an Open Source/Free Software perspect there are also some
>significant "political" differences between SGML and XML. SGML dates
>from a pre-Internet era. SGML is an ISO standard. It is not freely
>available nor developed in as open a manner as XML. In fact the SGML
>standard is very expensive to obtain - especially for a lone free

I have at home the SGML handbook by goldfarb, which includes the SGML sta=
ndard,
with comments by goldfarb, and it's not expensive at all. Not more than
other technical books.

>community to alter this situation). On the other hand XML is a child of
>the "Internet revolution". The standard is freely available to anyone
...
>while - it is only now that there is a "mass" realisation that
>Information Technology requires a tool such as XML/SGML.

I had never thought of XML and SGML from this point of view, but I liked
it a lot. It made me think.

>Conclusion: A DocBook user should be using XML rather than SGML for this=

>reason: XML is more open and as a result better understood and supported=

>than SGML. The HOWTO should make this point.

Hmm. Well, I'll not start an argument on this. I accept submarine as an
acuatic animal.

>On DSSSL
>--------
>between them, the also have different applications. I would look to the
>"DocBook Demystification HOWTO" to inform the user on when the use of a
>particular stylesheet system is applicable.

Very good, Ian. You are giving him points where he can make his howto bet=
ter.
This is not going to be a rejection of everything in the text. The idea
is to offer the best tutorial possible.

>Where DSSSL comes in to its own is when your target is "paper" - either
>made-out-of-trees-paper or electronic paper (PostScript or PDF). DSSSL

Let's remember that DSSSL has a online part where the scroll flow object
class gives the necessary behaviour of online environments. And in the DS=
SSL
revission some new online flow objects are being introduced (like popup).=

But yes, DSSSL addresses quite well paper matters.

>On Openjade
>-----------
>
>OpenJade is a volunteer effort
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Like many open source projects, openjade is staffed by volunteers: with
>limited time and very little resources for marketing - which is one
>reason why I am upset by your "negative marketing" of openjade. Openjade=


No. It is not you (I) who is upset. It is us (we) who are upset. We as a
group.
I agree with you totally on this criticism. This bad marketing does hurt
us a lot.

I hope my comments helped you in some way. Some were just encouragements.=

But anyway, I think I had to reply, not just say nothing.

Thanks Ian.