opengate-devel — Development Mailing List

[Opengate-devel] Problem with Bootstrap with ois

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

I try to compile the ois on the ubuntuu Box, but I am not abled, because
it need Autoconf2.50 or Above.

Autconf -V Says:
autoconf (GNU Autoconf) 2.60
Written by ....
Copyright ...

Autoconf2.50 chosen by Debian Wrapper script
For more informatinon and Tuning advice see ..

Anyone any Ideas? 

[Opengate-devel] GUI

[Gary L. <Ult...@gm...>]

Daniel Scheibe schrieb:
 > If you want to make this stuff over the Meta Server you loose much cpu=

 > time for the webserver daemon, the php execution with the php and the
 > sql query.
 >
 > Every Item which a Player buy, mine or sell, every money transaction a=
ll
 > the things have to send to an server, do you really want to do this
 > stuff over http?

Well the meta server must be part of every transaction. If it is not, pla=
yers could write a very simple=20
game server which just sends the new credit balance to the meta server, s=
omthing like "Client #0815 had=20
2000 credits before and made some market transactions. Now he has 9999999=
99 credits. The meta server=20
would have to accept that. We would open a door and welcome cheater. Once=
 there are a few billion=20
credits in the game they will be given to other players and soon commodit=
ies and ships won't be anything=20
worth anymore because people have way to much money. All we could do is d=
elete all accounts and let=20
everyone register again.

 > Client buy something and have to send the buy offer to the meta server=
,
 > meta server have to check price and amount and the cargo space from th=
e
 > player and buy for the Client.
 >
 > Client ask after the Result. Did I buy something? Did I have less mone=
y
 > now?

The last step is not necessary. The meta server could either return these=
 information right when the=20
client sends the buy order or could simply respond with an "ok". which me=
ans "Yes sir, i executed your=20
command. But please do the calculations yourself and update the UI! :-p"

 > Player Trade
 > Client want to trade with another client.
 > client sends data to the meta server
 > How did the other client know about the trade? Meta Server didn=C2=B4t=
 send
 > anything to client, how the Trade can be complete? With an Timer?
 > Both Client send the offer to Meta Server but Meta Server can=C2=B4t s=
end the
 > trade back to the clients.

Um I am no coder. But you would need to let the client which starts the t=
rade message the other client=20
which is also part of the trade. And one of thouse 2 clients could inform=
 the meta after the trade is=20
successful.

 > Isn=C2=B4t it much easier to have an self coded Server for all this Ne=
twork
 > Stuff?
 >
 > You can send stuff from php with the php socket (I code a small
 > Chatwebserver in PHP and a tcp client for a simple telnet script for a=

 > teamspeak status script) but why anyone could use this when he able to=

 > code an pure c++ server and client for all this things? It need to muc=
h
 > cpu time and memory when you do it over the apache daemon which you do=
n
 > =C2=B4t need when you code this stuff in pure c++.

Of course a pure c++ meta server would have speed benefits. But speed is =
not everything. I thought I=20
wrote it in some other mails before, umm maybe I only talked with Tim abo=
ut it. The 2 benefits of an php=20
meta server are:

1.) low costs (we don't have money to spent so we can't hire expensive se=
rvers)
2.) easy intergration for the website opacma (the game data is already av=
ailable on the right server and=20
the right format)

Regards,
Gary

Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

I thought you miss the economy Part, the Statistik Part, every Player
Trade, every Trade with Stations.

I think the projekt is need one Server which handle every Trade action
between Player/Station and Player/Player.

If you want to make this stuff over the Meta Server you loose much cpu
time for the webserver daemon, the php execution with the php and the
sql query.

Every Item which a Player buy, mine or sell, every money transaction all
the things have to send to an server, do you really want to do this
stuff over http? 

How a Client receive the information about the new Inventar? OK you can
send an Question to the meta server, but this have to execute the script
file again.

Meta Server:

Market Buy:
Client want to buy and catch the market information from the meta
server.

Client buy something and have to send the buy offer to the meta server,
meta server have to check price and amount and the cargo space from the
player and buy for the Client.

Client ask after the Result. Did I buy something? Did I have less money
now?

Player Trade
Client want to trade with another client.
client sends data to the meta server
How did the other client know about the trade? Meta Server didn´t send
anything to client, how the Trade can be complete? With an Timer?
Both Client send the offer to Meta Server but Meta Server can´t send the
trade back to the clients.


A Player killed in space, both Client´s send it to the Meta Server.
The Player who killed send that he have one more Kill or Bounty or
whatever to Metaserver.

The Player who killed send he is death, he loose money, which ship he
have. Where he going to respawn. And all that things. 


Isn´t it much easier to have an self coded Server for all this Network
Stuff?

Sorry but I think that is not the right way for a Projekt like this.

One Server which can send and receive messages have to handle the item
stuff, money stuff and skill stuff from the universe.

You can send stuff from php with the php socket (I code a small
Chatwebserver in PHP and a tcp client for a simple telnet script for a
teamspeak status script) but why anyone could use this when he able to
code an pure c++ server and client for all this things? It need to much
cpu time and memory when you do it over the apache daemon which you don
´t need when you code this stuff in pure c++.

Sorry :-/

> Daniel Scheibe schrieb:
> > You don´t want that anybody who will host this Game to host it own game
> 
> indeed. players need to stick together in 1 game. Otherwise the huge universe will always apear to be empty.
> 
> > One Metaserver many Sector Server?
> 
> yes
> 
> > Then are there more Galaxies? More Server Stations like the sol core or
> > quant core?
> 
> We only got the sectors which already existed in jumpgate. No additional unregulated space. If a new 
> server connects to the meta server he will only handle some of the already existing sectors. The already 
> existing servers will handel less sectors.
> 
> > I have an dedicated Server on the net and I am willing to give some cpu
> > time, bandwith and harddisk space for this projekt.
> 
> we are still looking for a server who handels the chat. chat is wider than sectors so it can't be 
> handeled by the game servers. and we can't use the meta server for that because php isn't able to send 
> data. only to provide data on request. so every client would need to ask the meta server every second or 
> so if there are new chat messanges instead of that the chat server sends the new messangers to everyone 
> as soon as they are written.
> 
> but you should contact tim about the chat server. he actually had the idea of an seperate chat server 
> and i guess he has a clearer imagination of how it could work.
> 
> thanks for your offer.
> 
> Regards,
> Gary

[Opengate-devel] GUI

[Gary L. <Ult...@gm...>]

Daniel Scheibe wrote:
 > ... improved economy ...

Sounds like a reasonable feature request for the later game development. We should keep that in mind and 
come back to an discussion about improving the economy. But I guess right now we need to do stuff that 
are much more basic. Like setting up the chat system. Tim already told me he finished work on the client 
-> server login.

Regards,
Gary

Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

I know many ppl which the economy was too simple, and that the idea
about a new one which is more player driven.

In World of Warcraft oder Star Wars Galaxies People build anything self
and sell this over a bazarre/ebay like.

I don´t like the Ebay Like thing and this is not got for a game like
Jumpgate.

The Station economy can be like the original one but the station didn´t
produce anything, PPL can buy und sell there the materials which they
mine and/ore  produce.

I know many ppl which play eve because they can do it there.

Are Jumpgate realy so different with some improvements in that way? ;)

BUT this is your projekt, and you have to decide!

btw. i know you player name, but i miss you squad, which one was that?


> Am Dienstag, den 28.11.2006, 11:36 +0100 schrieb Daniel Scheibe:
> > I ask Christoph on Saturday about some Projekt Plans like a Player build
> > economy like the old star wars galaxy or warcraft economy and about some
> > advanced Skill System but he never answer my mail. :-/
> 
> Hi Daniel,
> 
> sorry that I missed your mail. For now the plan is to create something
> close to Jumpgate and start improving it later on. The economic system
> of Jumpgate was quite ok and it's one of my favorites about Jumpgate. I
> don't think we should start with something completely different. I know
> nothing about WOW or SWG and their economy systems. If one can point me
> to information that would be helpful.
> I think if a former player of Jumpgate discovers Opengate as something
> that looks like Jumpgate but behaves completely different behind the
> scenes they might not jump on the train an play it. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Regards,
>   Christoph
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your
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Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Christoph B. <eg...@gm...>]

Am Dienstag, den 28.11.2006, 11:36 +0100 schrieb Daniel Scheibe:
> I ask Christoph on Saturday about some Projekt Plans like a Player build
> economy like the old star wars galaxy or warcraft economy and about some
> advanced Skill System but he never answer my mail. :-/

Hi Daniel,

sorry that I missed your mail. For now the plan is to create something
close to Jumpgate and start improving it later on. The economic system
of Jumpgate was quite ok and it's one of my favorites about Jumpgate. I
don't think we should start with something completely different. I know
nothing about WOW or SWG and their economy systems. If one can point me
to information that would be helpful.
I think if a former player of Jumpgate discovers Opengate as something
that looks like Jumpgate but behaves completely different behind the
scenes they might not jump on the train an play it. Just my 2 cents.

Regards,
  Christoph

[Opengate-devel] GUI

[Gary L. <Ult...@gm...>]

Daniel Scheibe wrote:
 > Hi Gary,
 > I mean thinks that make Player Groups which are not (only) interested =
in
 > pvp make more Needed.
 >
 > I mean groups like Trader which have to meet with builder to buy to lo=
w
 > prices or sell materials which they buy from miner.

Well, actually I also had some plans in creating something like different=
 player groups. But what I had=20
in mind where only some differences in opacma. What i was thinking of was=
 something like an other menu=20
(instead of the player menu which you can see if you click on "ACCOUNT") =
which allows you to create=20
transport missions. So we could create a player group which consists of t=
ransport companies who are=20
looking for private space pilots who transport the stuff they need to bri=
ng from A to B in little=20
packages. And I also thought about something like faction leaders. 1 for =
solrain, 1 for octavius and 1=20
for quantar which are responsible for new building operations. Something =
like if we finished developing=20
the first few sectors with the wake station (for example) and the solrain=
 deport the faction leader=20
starts a new building operation and says "we need 10 000 units of metal t=
o build a new stargate in=20
solrain depot sector. so he gives missions to transport companies and tho=
use transport companies give=20
missions to players to transport metal from wake to depot and if thouse 1=
0 000 units are transported we=20
release an update for the game which has this new jumpgate and also the n=
ew sector which the jumpgate=20
links to.

But i must say that every change in the original game jumpgate could make=
 opengate better but it could=20
also make opengate worse. Maybe a plain clone would be the safest.

 > I don=C2=B4t unterstand the Meta Server thing.
 >
 > A Webserver with opacma which stores all Data about which Client host
 > which Sector, all Equipment, all Player Stats and the whole equipment
 > which is availabe in the Universe?

and also all chat logs and stuff like that. the idea of the meta server i=
s to have something central=20
which provides every required data. This makes it also possible to have f=
ull intergration of the website=20
in the game. You could for example look on the website where the other gu=
ys of your clan are (in which=20
sector, in which ship and so on) or make some searches in some old chat l=
ogs of some channels which you=20
have never been in. Of course private messages (wispering) will only be a=
ccessable to thouse 2 dialog=20
partners if they logged in.

Regards,
Gary

[Opengate-devel] GUI

[Gary L. <Ult...@gm...>]

Daniel Scheibe wrote:
 > You don=C2=B4t want that anybody who will host this Game to host it ow=
n game

indeed. players need to stick together in 1 game. Otherwise the huge univ=
erse will always apear to be empty.

 > One Metaserver many Sector Server?

yes

 > Then are there more Galaxies? More Server Stations like the sol core o=
r
 > quant core?

We only got the sectors which already existed in jumpgate. No additional =
unregulated space. If a new=20
server connects to the meta server he will only handle some of the alread=
y existing sectors. The already=20
existing servers will handel less sectors.

 > I have an dedicated Server on the net and I am willing to give some cp=
u
 > time, bandwith and harddisk space for this projekt.

we are still looking for a server who handels the chat. chat is wider tha=
n sectors so it can't be=20
handeled by the game servers. and we can't use the meta server for that b=
ecause php isn't able to send=20
data. only to provide data on request. so every client would need to ask =
the meta server every second or=20
so if there are new chat messanges instead of that the chat server sends =
the new messangers to everyone=20
as soon as they are written.

but you should contact tim about the chat server. he actually had the ide=
a of an seperate chat server=20
and i guess he has a clearer imagination of how it could work.

thanks for your offer.

Regards,
Gary

[Opengate-devel] About the Login Stuff

[Gary L. <Ult...@gm...>]

Daniel Scheibe schrieb:
 > The Sourcecode is open, if you realy want that nobody are able to hack=

 > the user login don=C2=B4t implent the security staff on the svn.
 >
 > Better is a closed more safely authentication which are not submitted
 > and when you release a binary implent it on the binary.
 >
 > Then nobody is able to read the sourcecode to do some hack stuff on a
 > live server.

Actually the client is open source. The meta server isn't. I am not sure =
about the game server. But if=20
the meta server isn't open this will also keep the game from splitting up=
 in a dozend single games and=20
keeps the players together.

Regards,
Gary

Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

Hi Gary,

I don´t mean with advanced a game with ultra high polygoned models and a
Grafik Engine like ehm Far Cry or Eve Online.

I mean thinks that make Player Groups which are not (only) interested in
pvp make more Needed.

I mean groups like Trader which have to meet with builder to buy to low
prices or sell materials which they buy from miner.

I mean groups like Builder, do not any Station let build more things
that the Standard noob Equipment, let the Player Build this things.

They have to meet with the Trader or directly the Miner for the
minerals.

I mean groups like the Miner, ok Miner do now have a bigger part in the
original Jumpgate.

Netdevil wasn´t able to release the Producture Module for the Pos,  i
don´t know why, they say economy, but the economy can be player driven.

Eve Online and Star Wars Galaxies is a good example for this.

When you say you will use the player computer my thought was wrong that
anyone wo wants to host some sectory this can do.

I think you mean something like "one player enter the sector where
nobody is in it and the player takes over the Sector", is a great Idea
but what do you do when 10 or 20 other player enter the Sector and the
Computer do not have enough bandwith and or cpu time for this?

ok cpu time is less, and when the clients update like an lan game with
udp this can work too, but you have to send all updates from every cient
to every client, not over the host which take over the sector.

>From every Client to Host to Every Client might be to much.

I don´t unterstand the Meta Server thing.

A Webserver with opacma which stores all Data about which Client host
which Sector, all Equipment, all Player Stats and the whole equipment
which is availabe in the Universe?

And all queries over the Website? Any Query use the webserver daemon,
php, any php use the mysql extension?

Or one self coded server which done all the things over an self coded
protocaol?

Daniel Scheibe schrieb:
> > Is there realy any need for more than more Space Server?
> > I know Jumpgate have more than one Space Server in his glory time, 
> > but with better Hardware and few Players they reduce the european to one
> > Server.
> 
> Ya well. 1 point why we are using the computers of the players to run several servers is to aviod huge 
> costs. If every player (or at least some) donate cpu usage and bandwidth by running a little programm 
> that's much more welcome than collecting money to pay 1 cool super fast game server with monthly costs. 
> We are an open source project. So no income and no money to spend.
> 
> The meta server will probably be the only all time available server. And the meta server actually is a 
> cool super fast server. But the costs are very low because it is actually a webserver for homepages and 
> stuff like that.
> 
> > Should open jumpgate be a 100% clone of Jumpgate or a Advanced Clone
> > with more Features like player economy player skills and more?
> 
> We are not planing to make everything better. Because this plan could mess up the whole game. Of course 
> we try to improve thouse things that make obviously no damage. But just simple things like making super 
> high polygoned ships will slow down the whole game and many players whould run it with low fps. Just an 
> example who we could destroy everything instead of making something better. So far that's only my 
> oppinion. But actually, in my oppinion we also reached at lot if we only cloned jumpgate. There is 
> currently nerly no comparable open source game on the market available which a level of jumpgate.
> 
> Regards,
> Gary

[Opengate-devel] GUI

[Gary L. <Ult...@gm...>]

Daniel Scheibe schrieb:
 > Is there realy any need for more than more Space Server?
 > I know Jumpgate have more than one Space Server in his glory time, but with better Hardware and few 
Players they reduce the european to one
 > Server.

Ya well. 1 point why we are using the computers of the players to run several servers is to aviod huge 
costs. If every player (or at least some) donate cpu usage and bandwidth by running a little programm 
that's much more welcome than collecting money to pay 1 cool super fast game server with monthly costs. 
We are an open source project. So no income and no money to spend.

The meta server will probably be the only all time available server. And the meta server actually is a 
cool super fast server. But the costs are very low because it is actually a webserver for homepages and 
stuff like that.

 > Should open jumpgate be a 100% clone of Jumpgate or a Advanced Clone
 > with more Features like player economy player skills and more?

We are not planing to make everything better. Because this plan could mess up the whole game. Of course 
we try to improve thouse things that make obviously no damage. But just simple things like making super 
high polygoned ships will slow down the whole game and many players whould run it with low fps. Just an 
example who we could destroy everything instead of making something better. So far that's only my 
oppinion. But actually, in my oppinion we also reached at lot if we only cloned jumpgate. There is 
currently nerly no comparable open source game on the market available which a level of jumpgate.

Regards,
Gary

Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

Am Dienstag, den 28.11.2006, 12:52 +0100 schrieb Tim Beelen:
> One question about the GUI: About the Solrain station GUI, what should
> be in there to provide the most basic functions of a Space station UI?
> 
> Tell me and I'll start hammering :)

http://www.opengate.ontheserver.de/graphic/screenshot/original/80.jpg

There is anything you need ;)
I don´t know the projekt plans too, when eGore Plans to build in a
Player driven economy the projekt need an build interface where player
can build some equipment if not all what the projekt need are there.

In the original Game are to ways to build some equipment.
1. The Station build the Equipment when all stuff are there which is
needed. The Build Cycle was 6 minute, anyone who want to build some of
this have to sit there and wait till the build was ready, the one who
click faster can buy the build, that was not the fairest thing because
some one haul the needed materials there and another one can buy the
product or can buy the needed materials.

2. There was stations which named "Custum Producer" where you have to
fly in with all needed materials, you have than the product in your
Cargo Space and the needed materials are taken from the Station.

Custom Producer only produce one Product, there aren´t a way to change
this, the Gamemaster decide what there can build. The Station didn´t
have any Gui, just fly through a kind of tunnel and landing tube.

Every Station have an "Message Board" in the original Game where Player
can ask after help for scouting, materials or just Escort.

I personally think we can advance this Message Board like a Web Board or
something else, where Player can answer on a Entry.

The original Game have no communication for offline Player, what about
something like an Communicator for the Message Board and Offline Message
and Galaxy News which can be write from an Gamemaster or Server Admin?

The Meta Server can do the work for the Communication Things.

Myself is dreaming about an 3D Station and a Player Avataar for some
atmosphere when you meet with other PPL.

There was another Space Massive Online Game from EA (I think it was
earth and beyond) which have this feature, the ppl like it.

But this stuff can do later, when eGore like this idea! ;)

Some Plans from eGore were a Good Starting Point for the Gui and the
features of opengate.

> > Ahhh now I unsterand your Network Plans!
> > 
> That's nice. Because I do not. Its just a bunch of ideas. 
> 
> > 
> > When this are the Plans some Questions:
> > 1. Who control the growing?
> > 2. Are the new sectors only unregulated space?
> > 3. What about economy?
> > 4. Who control the balance? A new Sector with many ai Enemys (something
> > like  Pulsar) should not be for a hosters door that he can level easy
> > and fast which another player could not do because the Server Owner rape
> > anyone who will try to use this Sector with his Squad.
> > 
> > I am right and that are the Plan?
> Don't know about that, eGore is the project manager. I don't know
> nothing about the big plans because I don't know anything about
> Jumpgate. 
> 
> I'm just programming stuff, if it ever gets implemented is not my
> concern. 
> 
> Sincerely,
> Tim
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
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> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Tim B. <ab...@sl...>]

One question about the GUI: About the Solrain station GUI, what should
be in there to provide the most basic functions of a Space station UI?

Tell me and I'll start hammering :)

On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 12:23 +0100, Daniel Scheibe wrote:
> Ahhh now I unsterand your Network Plans!
> 
That's nice. Because I do not. Its just a bunch of ideas. 

> 
> When this are the Plans some Questions:
> 1. Who control the growing?
> 2. Are the new sectors only unregulated space?
> 3. What about economy?
> 4. Who control the balance? A new Sector with many ai Enemys (something
> like  Pulsar) should not be for a hosters door that he can level easy
> and fast which another player could not do because the Server Owner rape
> anyone who will try to use this Sector with his Squad.
> 
> I am right and that are the Plan?
Don't know about that, eGore is the project manager. I don't know
nothing about the big plans because I don't know anything about
Jumpgate. 

I'm just programming stuff, if it ever gets implemented is not my
concern. 

Sincerely,
Tim

Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

Ahhh now I unsterand your Network Plans!

You don´t want that anybody who will host this Game to host it own game,
the target is that anyone who want to host, host a Part of the Game and
do host some old or some new sectors?

One Metaserver many Sector Server?

Then are there more Galaxies? More Server Stations like the sol core or
quant core?

When this are the Plans some Questions:
1. Who control the growing?
2. Are the new sectors only unregulated space?
3. What about economy?
4. Who control the balance? A new Sector with many ai Enemys (something
like  Pulsar) should not be for a hosters door that he can level easy
and fast which another player could not do because the Server Owner rape
anyone who will try to use this Sector with his Squad.

I am right and that are the Plan?

I have an dedicated Server on the net and I am willing to give some cpu
time, bandwith and harddisk space for this projekt.

Whoever are the "Lead programmer" for the net stuff can receive an user
account, i am new here, i don´t know you ppl very much, but later when I
know you ppl better this ppl can receive the root login too if he need.

I will help where I can, but first I have to learn! ;-)

Can anyone type somthing about the Projekt Plans? I can´t find this
anywhere.

> The most logical thing to do for a game is to send AI decisions
> (including random seeds) to the client, and let all the clients
> interpret those to movement and such using those values (instead of
> updating the speeds, directions, variables over the network). 
> 
> Using a meta-server isn't just cool, it keeps scalability. And since we
> have a skilled developer working in that area it would be a waste of
> human resources, talent and creative input to think we don't need it. 
> 
> Better make suggestions to give it a more crucial role in the entire
> scheme of things and enhance the implementation. 
> 
> Secondly managing multiple servers is the right idea if you want to
> maintain an image of transparency and give the project the chance to
> dynamically grow (people could host their own sectors for example). 
> 
> The meta server is the point where all our efforts come together -
> whether your are developing the server or the client, you can't get
> around it. 
> 
> Sincerely,
> Tim
> 

Re: [Opengate-devel] network libraray

[Tim B. <ab...@sl...>]

On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 12:00 +0100, eGore wrote:
> Just a short sidenote: libgrapple builds and runs on win32.
> 

Haha, there you have it. Again it proves I don't know nothing :P

I for one welcome our Grapple overlords. 

Sincerely, 
Tim

Re: [Opengate-devel] About the Login Stuff

[Tim B. <ab...@sl...>]

Hi Daniel,

Writing secure code does not only void hack attempts, we also maintain
the code as a team.=20
If someone is intelligent enough to exploit a buffer overflow or a finds
a security hole, there is no need for him to exploit it. Instead this
clearly intelligent person will try to fix it since we are all doing
this in our own free time, out of our own free will.=20

And if this project ever enters a workable, stable state it will be the
first of it's kind. It won't be the target of crackers that want to do
harm. It's open source - and therefore we are all on the same side... or
at least I would like to think we are.=20

I for one welcome any hacker that wants to teach us how to patch
security holes.=20

And if we do encounter such an evil individual there won't be any
problems, there will only be challenges.=20

Sincerely,
Tim

On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 11:42 +0100, Daniel Scheibe wrote:
> The Sourcecode is open, if you realy want that nobody are able to hack
> the user login don=C2=B4t implent the security staff on the svn.
>=20
> Better is a closed more safely authentication which are not submitted
> and when you release a binary implent it on the binary.
>=20
> Then nobody is able to read the sourcecode to do some hack stuff on a
> live server.
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Re: [Opengate-devel] network libraray

[eGore <eG...@gm...>]

Just a short sidenote: libgrapple builds and runs on win32.

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:52:48 +0100
Von: Tim Beelen <ab...@sl...>
An: dan...@gm...
Betreff: Re: [Opengate-devel] network libraray

> Hi Daniel!
> 
> Are you developing for windows or linux?
> If you are a windows developer, try implementing OpenTNL or RakNet. 
> But since both aren't LGPL they are not that strong candidates. 
> 
> Since its Open Source you are free to implement whatever you think is
> right. 
> 
> And putting windows out of the loop for now does keep the community a
> bit more together. Personally I don't want to deal with Windows guys. 
> 
> I'm not saying that there won't be a Windows port. If I didn't
> anticipated that happening I wouldn't have put such an effort in writing
> Windows compatible code and put my vote up for portable libraries such
> as TinyXML. 
> 
> For now I'm satisfied with the current libraries as they are. Especially
> the LGPL/libPNG/MIT licensed libraries. 
> I make my selection based on the following:
> 
> #1: Is the library licensed LGPL, MIT or LibPNG?
> #2: Is it being maintained?
> #3: How well is it documented?
> #4: Is it cross-platform?
> 
> You see, cross-platform is way down the list. 
> 
> If you are set on a windows-build, get cross-compiling to work using
> MingW32 using KDeveloper. Then you have my full support on maintaining
> code in both branches. 
> 
> Cheers!
> Tim
> 
> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 11:16 +0100, Daniel Scheibe wrote:
> > I have read a little bit about libgrapple, libgrapple have some nice
> > feature, but what is when the projekt grow an anyone plans to make a
> > Windows Port?
> > 
> > Libgrapple is not compatible to windows socket isnt´t it? 
> > I think you should not make the same failure as netdevil with directplay
> > with libgrapple.
> > 
> > OK libprapple is open, but who will port libgrapple to other Platforms
> > when he try to port opengate to another Platform?
> > 
> > 
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> 
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Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Tim B. <ab...@sl...>]

The most logical thing to do for a game is to send AI decisions
(including random seeds) to the client, and let all the clients
interpret those to movement and such using those values (instead of
updating the speeds, directions, variables over the network). 

Using a meta-server isn't just cool, it keeps scalability. And since we
have a skilled developer working in that area it would be a waste of
human resources, talent and creative input to think we don't need it. 

Better make suggestions to give it a more crucial role in the entire
scheme of things and enhance the implementation. 

Secondly managing multiple servers is the right idea if you want to
maintain an image of transparency and give the project the chance to
dynamically grow (people could host their own sectors for example). 

The meta server is the point where all our efforts come together -
whether your are developing the server or the client, you can't get
around it. 

Sincerely,
Tim

Re: [Opengate-devel] network libraray

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

Hi Tim!

I don´t want to code for windows, I will try to help with kdevelop and
this sourcecode.

I think that anyone who will play open jumpgate can use a Live CD when
he don´t want to install any distribution.

For any Windows User I can write an HowTo how to use a Live Distribution
Like Knoppix or Ubuntuu.

You know my problems to compile the sourcecode, first i will try to
write an howto for that and I hope that one or two developer help it to
switch to Linux and help on Open Jumpgate.

Open Jumpgate is a Fan Projekt and hope there are some more fans which
are able to code c++ but didn´t have some Linux experience.

I am realy realy realy realy like this projekt and hope that more fans
come to help.

I don´t know where are you come from, me from Germany, and I don´t like
to Play on the "worldwide server". And I see this Projekt as a chance to
advance the original gameplay. (That why I ask about the Gameplans in
the other Mail).

> Hi Daniel!
> 
> Are you developing for windows or linux?
> If you are a windows developer, try implementing OpenTNL or RakNet. 
> But since both aren't LGPL they are not that strong candidates. 
> 
> Since its Open Source you are free to implement whatever you think is
> right. 
> 
> And putting windows out of the loop for now does keep the community a
> bit more together. Personally I don't want to deal with Windows guys. 
> 
> I'm not saying that there won't be a Windows port. If I didn't
> anticipated that happening I wouldn't have put such an effort in writing
> Windows compatible code and put my vote up for portable libraries such
> as TinyXML. 
> 
> For now I'm satisfied with the current libraries as they are. Especially
> the LGPL/libPNG/MIT licensed libraries. 
> I make my selection based on the following:
> 
> #1: Is the library licensed LGPL, MIT or LibPNG?
> #2: Is it being maintained?
> #3: How well is it documented?
> #4: Is it cross-platform?
> 
> You see, cross-platform is way down the list. 
> 
> If you are set on a windows-build, get cross-compiling to work using
> MingW32 using KDeveloper. Then you have my full support on maintaining
> code in both branches. 
> 
> Cheers!
> Tim
> 
> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 11:16 +0100, Daniel Scheibe wrote:
> > I have read a little bit about libgrapple, libgrapple have some nice
> > feature, but what is when the projekt grow an anyone plans to make a
> > Windows Port?
> > 
> > Libgrapple is not compatible to windows socket isnt´t it? 
> > I think you should not make the same failure as netdevil with directplay
> > with libgrapple.
> > 
> > OK libprapple is open, but who will port libgrapple to other Platforms
> > when he try to port opengate to another Platform?
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your
> > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
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> > _______________________________________________
> > Opengate-devel mailing list
> > Ope...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opengate-devel
> 
> 
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[Opengate-devel] About the Login Stuff

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

The Sourcecode is open, if you realy want that nobody are able to hack
the user login don´t implent the security staff on the svn.

Better is a closed more safely authentication which are not submitted
and when you release a binary implent it on the binary.

Then nobody is able to read the sourcecode to do some hack stuff on a
live server.

Re: [Opengate-devel] network libraray

[Tim B. <ab...@sl...>]

Hi Daniel!

Are you developing for windows or linux?
If you are a windows developer, try implementing OpenTNL or RakNet.=20
But since both aren't LGPL they are not that strong candidates.=20

Since its Open Source you are free to implement whatever you think is
right.=20

And putting windows out of the loop for now does keep the community a
bit more together. Personally I don't want to deal with Windows guys.=20

I'm not saying that there won't be a Windows port. If I didn't
anticipated that happening I wouldn't have put such an effort in writing
Windows compatible code and put my vote up for portable libraries such
as TinyXML.=20

For now I'm satisfied with the current libraries as they are. Especially
the LGPL/libPNG/MIT licensed libraries.=20
I make my selection based on the following:

#1: Is the library licensed LGPL, MIT or LibPNG?
#2: Is it being maintained?
#3: How well is it documented?
#4: Is it cross-platform?

You see, cross-platform is way down the list.=20

If you are set on a windows-build, get cross-compiling to work using
MingW32 using KDeveloper. Then you have my full support on maintaining
code in both branches.=20

Cheers!
Tim

On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 11:16 +0100, Daniel Scheibe wrote:
> I have read a little bit about libgrapple, libgrapple have some nice
> feature, but what is when the projekt grow an anyone plans to make a
> Windows Port?
>=20
> Libgrapple is not compatible to windows socket isnt=C2=B4t it?=20
> I think you should not make the same failure as netdevil with directpla=
y
> with libgrapple.
>=20
> OK libprapple is open, but who will port libgrapple to other Platforms
> when he try to port opengate to another Platform?
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share=
 your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=3Djoin.php&p=3Dsourceforge&CID=3D=
DEVDEV
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Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

Is there realy any need for more than more Space Server?
I know Jumpgate have more than one Space Server in his glory time, 
but with better Hardware and few Players they reduce the european to one
Server.

Other Server Emulator like lineage2 do have 1 Server for Authenticate,
Game and SQL Server and than the login, game and sql Server can be on
more server machines.

What do you think about one Login, Game and sql Server?
Then there can be some processes which can work on the sql or login
server like the economy stuff.

What about the ai stuff? Netdevil to this stuff on the client side or?
Who are able to code some ai stuff? I think this is a very hard work to
do. 

On which machine this will be done? Server? Client?

Much Online games have some problems with lag and the ai because all
stuff will be done on the Server Machine.

I ask Christoph on Saturday about some Projekt Plans like a Player build
economy like the old star wars galaxy or warcraft economy and about some
advanced Skill System but he never answer my mail. :-/

Should open jumpgate be a 100% clone of Jumpgate or a Advanced Clone
with more Features like player economy player skills and more?

I see there many thinks that can be make the life better and more
interesting for miners, traders and "Builders" but i didn´t know what
are your plans.

> Tim Beelen schrieb:
>  > Hey Gary/devvers,
>  > Hmm, very interesting, I guess that if the login was successful it needs
>  > to return two unique keys, one for server-side authentications, and one
>  > for client side authentication, and keep track of these.
> 
> Currently the user id is beeing delivered on a successful login. Combined with the user ip would 
> actually be enought to identify the computer as "permitted". I am not an expert on networks so I have no 
> clue if that is really enough. I guess hackers can still do stuff with your account if he has the same 
> ip as you have (that means he must be in your network) and also knows your user id. But that's quite 
> improbable.
> 
>  > So all clients should be able to ask for a list of other clients.
> 
> That's not hard to implement. But why does a server actually need to know who else is currently in the 
> game? As far as christoph told me there will be several game servers which all handle a few sectors or 
> so. That means the game server actually wouldn't need a full list. It would only need thouse players he 
> is going to handle. But why does he need to know that anyway?
> 
> Let's say game server 13 is handeling sector "outter rings" and "lothar's landing". Currently there are 
> 4 players in these sectors and thouse 4 players just recieved the info that thouse 2 sectors aren't been 
> handled by game server 15 anymore because thisone just gone offline. They also recieved the info that 
> they should contact game server 13 if they are or enter "outter rings" or "lothar's landing". Also all 
> other players in the opacma univers recieved the info to contact games server 13 if they enter one of 
> these two sectors. So every client will contact game server 13 anyway as soon as this is necessary.
> 
> If the game server would recieve an list of all players which are in one of thouse 2 sectors from the 
> meta server, this list would needed to be updated like every second so that he knows who to comminicate 
> with.
> 
> Regards,
> Gary
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Opengate-devel] network libraray

[Daniel S. <han...@gm...>]

I have read a little bit about libgrapple, libgrapple have some nice
feature, but what is when the projekt grow an anyone plans to make a
Windows Port?

Libgrapple is not compatible to windows socket isnt´t it? 
I think you should not make the same failure as netdevil with directplay
with libgrapple.

OK libprapple is open, but who will port libgrapple to other Platforms
when he try to port opengate to another Platform?

Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Gary L. <Ult...@gm...>]

Christoph Brill wrote:
>  The concept is like this: The
> clients connect themself to a server. The server talks to the metaserver
> for authentication. If the client is valid against the metaserver, it can
> talk to the server.

I am not sure if this is a good idea. If the client sends his username and password to the game server 
and the game server only passes the data to the meta server, this is a security lack. Folks could write 
their own game server and capture all account data of the clients which try to connect to the opengate 
universe instead of passing it to the meta server. so the clients should authenticate directly with the 
meta server. if the auth. is successful this client will recieve the infos which are necessary that the 
client know which game server to contact if he jumps through an jumpgate.

there would also be another problem. The meta server is the only server known by everyone. Which game 
server should the client auth. against if he enters the game.

 > If a player enters a jumpgate, the server looks which server hosts the sector
 > and refers the client to the other server.

You mean the meta server looks which game server hosts the sector, right? I like that idea! That would 
make it unnecessary to send any playerlists.

Regards,
Gary

Re: [Opengate-devel] GUI

[Christoph B. <eg...@gm...>]

Am Montag, den 27.11.2006, 22:21 +0100 schrieb Tim Beelen:
> Hey Gary/devvers,

Hi Tim!

> Hmm, very interesting, I guess that if the login was successful it needs
> to return two unique keys, one for server-side authentications, and one
> for client side authentication, and keep track of these. 

You don't need to worry about that. That's why I choose libgrapple. It
handles that for us. It has a list of known clients and is able to
identify them. Though I'm not sure if there is something like keys to
verify the authentication.

> I have no idea how to we are implementing the networking. But we can
> start with the Meta server keeping track of and generating unique id's
> of a few digits (but random).

The metaserver is done in PHP... currently. The concept is like this: The
clients connect themself to a server. The server talks to the metaserver
for authentication. If the client is valid against the metaserver, it can
talk to the server. Servers will provide sectors for opengate. Sectors are
connected via jumpgates. If a player enters a jumpgate, the server looks
which server hosts the sector and refers the client to the other server.
Servers know other servers and periodically get a list of servers from the
metaserver. The metaserver has a list of which server hosts wich client,
though I'm not sure if it would cause to much traffic to tell on each
serverchange of the client.

> I guess for simplicity's sake all clients are servers for now. 
> So Client == Server and Server == Client. 

I had that idea, too. But that is highly unreliable because of routers,
firewalls, hackers, etc.

> So all clients should be able to ask for a list of other clients.
> 
> If the above is working, I guess it's up to the likes of me to finish
> the client/server. 
> 
> Sincerely,
> Tim