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From: James S. <ja...@di...> - 2002-05-04 11:27:07
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At 12:11 AM 04/05/2002, you wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think links is only ported to cygwin, not >native >win32. I love links, use it all the time, but I dont' think it should go on >the initial CD we're putting together. A good email client though, now that's >important. You're not wrong, but for completeness, I should point out that it only takes a single dll to get it working. I also agree with the advanced software perhaps putting some people off. But Mahogany is still a good client. And it's not cygwin. And it's not text only. James |
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From: J A. F. <jaa...@ya...> - 2002-05-04 04:17:57
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I've contacted the K-Meleon development mailing list and posted on their forums, but haven't gotten any response yet. I've also downloaded the source and I'll be looking at it over the weekend and next week (I'll be out of town for a week, but I'll do what I can). Does anyone else know of any other light weight OpenSource web browsers we could perhaps use? I was hoping to find one written in some cross-platform language other than java (although we could go with java) but I didn't turn up anything. Actually, that makes me think, while I have some issues with java on our Open Source CD since the java virtual machine isn't open source, java *can* be loaded straight from the cd without any modifications. Plus it's cross platform, meaning if we ever did a Macintosh version, the installer would be easily ported. Still, I'm not too crazy about using java despite the fact that I'm most proficient in it (Didn't someone ask if anyone is J2EE savvy?). Maybe python or perl would be better... Anyone know of any good python/perl based broswers? Just some thoughts. jaaron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com |
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From: Henrik N. O. <h....@bt...> - 2002-05-04 01:16:08
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Dear list, I've updated theopencd.org] web page slightly, including a newsletter, in which I try to sumarize the state of affairs. - Henrik -- Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP h....@bt... he...@th... |
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From: Henrik N. O. <h....@bt...> - 2002-05-04 01:16:05
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Thanks Jon, Lets all have a look. Just a note a bout the FTP. There have been mixed reports. It seems that anonymous users can upload stuff to inncoming, but then noone can download it unless I as admin physically move it to the public FTP area. This is clearly not good as it defeats the aim of us all trying trying to share files without going through one specific person. Can anyone find a better solution to this? (I've moved Jon's file now, but for the future ...) .henrik On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 20:00, Jon Saltzman wrote: > Greetings - > > I saw that Henrik put up the anonymous FTP, so I put up a framework for an HTML based browser install. I didn't want to include any apps due to size, so the link just points to a text file, but it seemed to work just fine with an application. > > I heard some talk that just clicking a link would not necessarily allow for the end user to install software on some machines - I would suggest that the solution is either a small javascript (easy to do), or simply to ignore the machines that it won't work on... HTML based installations are fairly standard, and not that ambigious, especially if designed well. > > The file is at http://66.197.181.104/incoming/openCDjs.zip > > I used a nice little program called UF AutoRun Creator which is completely freeware to generate the autorun.inf and professional autorun.exe file. > > I will continue to mess with this and see if I can find away around the browser download/install issue. > > -Jon -- Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP h....@bt... he...@th... |
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From: Alex R. <tun...@pa...> - 2002-05-04 00:45:58
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J Aaron Farr wrote: > Anyways, I'm sorry about the long rant and perhaps I misunderstand the goal of > this project, but I feel to be successful, right now we should focus on just a > few top quality applications and maybe sometime down the road we'll be able to > put together and "advanced" CD. If anyone else has any thoughts on this, I'd > love to hear them. Basically, I agree with you on this one. A few top quality applications are probably the way to start. The other possibility is to use a two tier install. Perhaps after all the end user applications have been installed, the installer can present a dialogue that reads something like this: "Do you want to install any compilers or interpreters?" and "Would you like to install any network tools?" Just a thought. Alex |
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From: Alex R. <tun...@pa...> - 2002-05-04 00:41:02
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Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 08:57, Toby Inkster wrote: > > On Thu, 2 May 2002 21:14:14 -0700 (PDT) > > J Aaron Farr <jaa...@ya...> wrote: > > > > JAF> Perhaps I should clarify by what I mean as an HTML based installer. > > JAF> There's a difference between and HTML based installer and and > > JAF> HTTP based installer.... > > > > I still don't think this is a great idea: > > > > 1) it would look less professional than a proper purpose-built application; and > > 2) people are wary about installing things off the Internet -- yes, > > *I* realise they would be installing things of the CD, not the > > Internet... but would they? > > > > What if we modify K-meleon in such a way that it's not possible for the > novice to see that it's a browser. It can be run in a permanent full > screen mode, and we can put in all our own buttons for navigation. In > that case we should probably not link to any site on the net, but we can > still preserve the same look and feel of the web site. In that way, > when the user does go on-line later the enviornment will be familiar. > > This can be made to look quite professional with some good web design > (and I think we have people signed up that are good at this); certainly > much better than your average windows installer, with its ugly green > background and grey prompting windows. The problem with doing something different is that "Joe User" trusts the gray prompting screen and the ugly green background. He trusts it because, as far as he's concerned, this is the only safe and sane way to install software. What we all must remember is that the success of this project rests with the installer. If it's hard to use, or even asks Joe User to think, he'll microwave the CD. We don't want anything new or different here. Just my .02 Alex |
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From: Alex R. <tun...@pa...> - 2002-05-04 00:40:36
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Steve Mallett wrote: > > > We offer it as tarballs/ZIP files on the website. The *vast* majority of > > people using the CD are not going to want the source code. The majority > > probably aren't going to know what source code even is. > > That may or may not be true. People who have vast computer experience (IT > depts) may have just the excuse they were looking for to install one of these > apps. Imagine the impact.... Timmy installs Mozilla, plays with it, likes > it. Conclusion: This really is good stuff. "Source code? They don't > really do that, that's crazy." Timmy surfs the CD. Holy Mackeral! They > really do distribute the source. Let's go that extra yard & hammer what > we're all about home. Yeah, but if we send source code then we need to include difficult to use, professional compilers. Joe User doesn't like that... Alex |
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From: Alex R. <tun...@pa...> - 2002-05-04 00:32:27
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Martin Stevens wrote: > > On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 08:57:53AM +0100, Toby Inkster wrote: > > On Thu, 2 May 2002 21:14:14 -0700 (PDT) > > J Aaron Farr <jaa...@ya...> wrote: > > > > JAF> Perhaps I should clarify by what I mean as an HTML based installer. > > JAF> There's a difference between and HTML based installer and and > > JAF> HTTP based installer.... > > > > I still don't think this is a great idea: > > > > 1) it would look less professional than a proper purpose-built application; and > > 2) people are wary about installing things off the Internet -- yes, > > *I* realise they would be installing things of the CD, not the > > Internet... but would they? > > How about a big note on the front page, to the effect of. > > All software will be installed from this CD, this has all been tested > by the OpenCD authors, blah blah blah That sounds a little like trying too hard. Remember that our installer has to pass the "My Grandma Can Use It" test. What we're really talking about here is an installer that presents one screen at a time, asking one question at a time. SCREEN ONE: "Do you want to install an office suite? Click "Yes" or "No."" SCREEN TWO: "Do you want to install a browser? Click "Yes" or "No."" No "Next" button, no button for the next screen, just something simple that My Grandma can use. Once all the questions have been answered, then the application starts installing. If My Grandma can't do an easy install on the first try, she's gonna trash it. Alex |
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From: J A. F. <jaa...@ya...> - 2002-05-03 23:11:06
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--- James Shuttleworth <ja...@di...> wrote: > And for my last effort to kill mouses (mice?), how about links as a > browser? I like it. I don't use it all the time, but if I know I want > just the information and none of the crud, it's amazing. > > That's my contribution. I understand that people new to open source / free > / powerful software might get a little scared, but maybe we could have an > "advanced" menu (or page if you go with the HTML thing)? If people don't > use it, fine. I do think, though, that many people will think "I'm > advanced" or at least "Wow, if I've been paying for software that is less > powerful than this stuff and it's not even in the advanced section, haven't > I been well and truly shafted?". Or something. > > James Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think links is only ported to cygwin, not native win32. I love links, use it all the time, but I dont' think it should go on the initial CD we're putting together. A good email client though, now that's important. A note about "advanced" software: Look, the first thing that goes on any windows machine I use is cygwin. Followed by xemacs, gvim, and mozilla. I don't know how I ever worked on windows before them. However, including "advanced" software like xemacs, gvim, cygwin, compilers, and any command line related utilities like pine or links I feel would be deterimental to the CD. Remember, we're attempting to offer the best in open source software for the *average* windows user. The average windows user thinks that hiding the command prompt back under Start->Programs->Accessories is an improvement. Including advanced software could very well backfire, leaving windows users even more convinced that open source software is just for geeks. The OpenCD should showcase a few well written, extemely user friendly applications. I should be able to give this CD to my mother and just let her run with it. At least, that's my thoughts on the main CD we should be working to produce here. There has been talk about producing several CDs with each CD targetting a slightly different type of user or containing a different mix of application types. I really hope we can eventually do something like that, but our initial focus should be on producing a very user friendly introduction to the open source world. In fact, with so many people suggesting so many good OS applications for windows, I was thinking that perhaps someone eventually needs to put together a "distribution" of OS software for windows. That's not what this project is aiming at right now and maybe this could eventually be incorporated into the OpenCD project or maybe it should be a project all on its own. Maybe something based on cygwin and includes just about every open source app of decent quality out there, and would have a unified installer that loaded it all very nicely onto your hard drive. Yeah all this software is out there (most of it is included with cygwin), but then all the parts of RedHat are out there too and I'm not interested in going out and collecting them all each time I want to install linux. Anyways, I'm sorry about the long rant and perhaps I misunderstand the goal of this project, but I feel to be successful, right now we should focus on just a few top quality applications and maybe sometime down the road we'll be able to put together and "advanced" CD. If anyone else has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. jaaron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com |
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From: James S. <ja...@di...> - 2002-05-03 22:34:14
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Yup. Eudora is free in the sense that you don't hand over any money. That is, unless you don't want adds. So really, even if you don't give them cash, you are still paying. Not that this is a bad thing - it's just not an open source thing. A good open source mail client that isn't just a bundled "extra" is Mahogany (http://mahogany.sourceforge.net/). It is quite good, although perhaps not as good as Eudora (those of you that read mail headers will see my preference). Then we have Pine (yummy). It's free (for non commercial use) and open source (but not GPL - I think). I *know* it's text-based, and I *know* that beginners may find it a little awkward at first, but it is still one of the best mail/news readers available. In fact, I use it as much as Eudora. Why not have pine as well as a GUI-infected client (or two)? And for my last effort to kill mouses (mice?), how about links as a browser? I like it. I don't use it all the time, but if I know I want just the information and none of the crud, it's amazing. That's my contribution. I understand that people new to open source / free / powerful software might get a little scared, but maybe we could have an "advanced" menu (or page if you go with the HTML thing)? If people don't use it, fine. I do think, though, that many people will think "I'm advanced" or at least "Wow, if I've been paying for software that is less powerful than this stuff and it's not even in the advanced section, haven't I been well and truly shafted?". Or something. James BTW: Sorry for top-posting. I think it's sometimes easier to read this way. >Envelope-to: ja...@di... >From: David Wheeler <dwh...@id...> >User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u; en-US; m18) >Gecko/20010307 Netscape6/6.01 >X-Accept-Language: en >To: ope...@li... >Subject: [Opencd-devel] Eudora appears to be proprietary >Sender: ope...@li... >X-BeenThere: ope...@li... >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9-sf.net >List-Help: <mailto:ope...@li...?subject=help> >List-Post: <mailto:ope...@li...> >List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel>, > <mailto:ope...@li...?subject=subscribe> >List-Id: <opencd-devel.lists.sourceforge.net> >List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel>, > ><mailto:ope...@li...?subject=unsubscribe> >List-Archive: <http://www.geocrawler.com/redir-sf.php3?list=opencd-devel> >Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 16:31:25 -0400 >X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=FOR_FREE version=2.20 >X-Spam-Level: > >Jon Saltzman said: > >>Here is an excellent opportunity to put a really powerful standalone = >>mail-client into open-cd: Eudora 5.1. I am not 100% sure it is GPL'ed, = >>however, I do know that they have a free affiliate program and all one = >>has to do is sign up here (http://www.eudora.com/affiliate/) to be able = >>to distribute their software for free. I'd suggest we look at this for = >>our mail client, in addition to just mozilla (I know many users prefer = >>to have their mail separate from their web browser). > >I looked at their website, and searched Google, and >found no evidence that Eudora is open source software/ >free software. Their website is full of licensing options... but >not source code. > >Articles such as: > http://www.techsoup.org/articlepage.cfm?articleid=40&topicid=2 >do list Eudora as "free software", but that article also lists >Microsoft Internet Explorer as free software >(they clearly just mean "don't need to pay"). > >Thus, it looks like Eudora is proprietary, and thus wouldn't >fit the stated aims of the OpenCD project. > >I don't see any need to put create a Eudora CD-ROM anyway. >If you want a CD-ROM with Eudora, they'll sell it to you for $1 >in bulk now. > > >--- David A. Wheeler > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply >the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... >_______________________________________________ >Opencd-devel mailing list >Ope...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel > |
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From: Gavin B. <gav...@uk...> - 2002-05-03 21:54:24
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From: "Jon Saltzman" <jsa...@di...>: > I used a nice little program called UF AutoRun Creator which is > completely freeware to generate the autorun.inf and professional > autorun.exe file. > Here is an excellent opportunity to put a really powerful standalone > mail-client into open-cd: Eudora 5.1. Perhaps we need to make clearer the distinction between "freeware" and "Free Software" - I can see misconceptions such as this coming up very frequently. Are there any articles published under Copyleft licenses that could be included in the CD? Gavin. -- Gavin Brown e: gav...@uk... w: http://jodrell.uk.net/ |
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From: David W. <dwh...@id...> - 2002-05-03 20:36:35
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Jon Saltzman said: > Here is an excellent opportunity to put a really powerful standalone = > mail-client into open-cd: Eudora 5.1. I am not 100% sure it is GPL'ed, = > however, I do know that they have a free affiliate program and all one = > has to do is sign up here (http://www.eudora.com/affiliate/) to be able = > to distribute their software for free. I'd suggest we look at this for = > our mail client, in addition to just mozilla (I know many users prefer = > to have their mail separate from their web browser). I looked at their website, and searched Google, and found no evidence that Eudora is open source software/ free software. Their website is full of licensing options... but not source code. Articles such as: http://www.techsoup.org/articlepage.cfm?articleid=40&topicid=2 do list Eudora as "free software", but that article also lists Microsoft Internet Explorer as free software (they clearly just mean "don't need to pay"). Thus, it looks like Eudora is proprietary, and thus wouldn't fit the stated aims of the OpenCD project. I don't see any need to put create a Eudora CD-ROM anyway. If you want a CD-ROM with Eudora, they'll sell it to you for $1 in bulk now. --- David A. Wheeler |
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From: Jon S. <jsa...@di...> - 2002-05-03 19:07:34
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Dear List, Here is an excellent opportunity to put a really powerful standalone = mail-client into open-cd: Eudora 5.1. I am not 100% sure it is GPL'ed, = however, I do know that they have a free affiliate program and all one = has to do is sign up here (http://www.eudora.com/affiliate/) to be able = to distribute their software for free. I'd suggest we look at this for = our mail client, in addition to just mozilla (I know many users prefer = to have their mail separate from their web browser). -Jon |
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From: Jon S. <jsa...@di...> - 2002-05-03 18:53:16
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Greetings - I saw that Henrik put up the anonymous FTP, so I put up a framework for = an HTML based browser install. I didn't want to include any apps due to = size, so the link just points to a text file, but it seemed to work just = fine with an application. I heard some talk that just clicking a link would not necessarily allow = for the end user to install software on some machines - I would suggest = that the solution is either a small javascript (easy to do), or simply = to ignore the machines that it won't work on... HTML based installations = are fairly standard, and not that ambigious, especially if designed = well. The file is at http://66.197.181.104/incoming/openCDjs.zip I used a nice little program called UF AutoRun Creator which is = completely freeware to generate the autorun.inf and professional = autorun.exe file. I will continue to mess with this and see if I can find away around the = browser download/install issue. -Jon |
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From: Henrik N. O. <h....@bt...> - 2002-05-03 14:59:24
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Hmm... anonymous up load does not seem to work ...? Anyway, I've uploaded Martins zip now, and download does work .henrik On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 15:37, Martin Stevens wrote: > > Just tried to upload the version i've made to the ftp site. > > Don't know if it made it if not can you upload it Henrik. > > Cheers > > Martin > > On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 02:57:36PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > David and others, > > > > Yes, I basically agree with all of this. Let's make a version 0.01. > > Perhaps we can just build on the one Martin made. I would suggest > > choosing some small apps for the trial iso though, such as freeamp and > > Xchat, so that we can easily distribute it amongst ourselves. > > > > An advantage of doing an Html Solution is that we can work on the > > contents and the machinery in parallel. That is, one group can work on > > making nice pages with information about the apps., install help, open > > source backgound and all that, with the understanding that: "Yes, we > > know that this does not work perfectly in all browsers, but it gives us > > a good idea." And then others can work on customizing K-meleon (say) > > with very clearly agreed upn specs. Namely that it should basically be > > a stripped down HTML engine that runs in full screen mode and is able to > > launch certain pre-defined .exe files without complaint. > > > > About the forum: The old data _has_ been saved, and Alan is now working > > on trying to integrate it into the opensourceware.net forum. In any > > case we should be able to make a long text file with all the posts if > > nothing else. > > > > I have now enabled anonymous ftp with upload on theopencd.org site (ip: > > 66.197.181.104) This should be fine as long as it doesn't get abused > > ... There is limed space, but it should be ok for graphics and small > > zip files. > > > > - Henrik > > > > On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 14:34, David Wheeler wrote: > > > > > > I believe the most important thing to do is GET STARTED. > > > > > > Pick just a few applications (say, Open Office and Mozilla), > > > pick a simple way to get them installed (say, using HTML), > > > create a simple ISO image that can invoke their installers, > > > and release that as version 0.01 of the CD. > > > Open Office is already officially out (as is Abiword), > > > and there's no reason to wait for the next release of Mozilla. > > > > > > Once that's done, it will be MUCH easier to suggest improvements, > > > and you counter the argument that "it's all vaporware". > > > Plan to have a LOT of "developer" releases before and between each > > > end-user release, just like any other open source/free software > > > project. That way, you can find and fix more end-user problems. > > > > > > I posted a number of other suggestions on the other forum that > > > are apparantly now trashed. I REALLY hope you can recover the > > > data at least. For example, I provided some text that might be > > > useful for your splash screen, and when you're ready to add > > > open source software/free software documents, I gave lots of > > > references for those documents (many of the references are available via > > > http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_refs.html and > > > http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html). > > > > > > In the longer term, I can imagine multiple versions of the CD. > > > Perhaps there will be "desktop", "server", and "programmer" versions, > > > each of which come in "Windows" and "MacOS" flavors. > > > But start small and right away, then do the other stuff later. > > > > > > Also - I don't think you should include source code on the > > > _same_ CD-ROM; most users won't request it, and those who later > > > decide they want it can download it. Create a separate ISO image > > > for the source code, and make that available at the website. > > > Actually, for noncommercial redistribution you can just supply > > > a link to where the code is. As I understand it, > > > this is allowed by the GPL; here's the relevant GPL text > > > for what you have to do if you don't include the source code: > > > > > > b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three > > > years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your > > > cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete > > > machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be > > > distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium > > > customarily used for software interchange; or, > > > > > > c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer > > > to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is > > > allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you > > > received the program in object code or executable form with such > > > an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply > > > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Opencd-devel mailing list > > > Ope...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel > > -- > > > > Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford > > 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road > > Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP > > h....@bt... he...@th... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > > > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply > > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... > > _______________________________________________ > > Opencd-devel mailing list > > Ope...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel > > > > -- > Budgester Technologies Ltd > Office : 01992 718568 > Mobile : 07815 982380 > mailto:ma...@bu... > http://www.budgester.com > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... > _______________________________________________ > Opencd-devel mailing list > Ope...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel -- Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP h....@bt... he...@th... |
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From: J A. F. <jaa...@ya...> - 2002-05-03 14:57:53
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--- Henrik Nilsen Omma <h....@bt...> wrote: > David and others, > And then others can work on customizing K-meleon (say) > with very clearly agreed upn specs. Namely that it should basically be > a stripped down HTML engine that runs in full screen mode and is able to > launch certain pre-defined .exe files without complaint. > > > - Henrik > Has anyone contacted the K-meleon project about this (assuming we go that direction)? I'd be willing to help with the porting. jaaron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com |
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From: J A. F. <jaa...@ya...> - 2002-05-03 14:43:28
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--- Henrik Nilsen Omma <h....@bt...> wrote: > On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 08:57, Toby Inkster wrote: > > On Thu, 2 May 2002 21:14:14 -0700 (PDT) > > J Aaron Farr <jaa...@ya...> wrote: > > > > JAF> Perhaps I should clarify by what I mean as an HTML based installer. > > JAF> There's a difference between and HTML based installer and and > > JAF> HTTP based installer.... > > > > I still don't think this is a great idea: > > > > 1) it would look less professional than a proper purpose-built > application; and > > 2) people are wary about installing things off the Internet -- yes, > > *I* realise they would be installing things of the CD, not the > > Internet... but would they? > > > > What if we modify K-meleon in such a way that it's not possible for the > novice to see that it's a browser. It can be run in a permanent full > screen mode, and we can put in all our own buttons for navigation. In > that case we should probably not link to any site on the net, but we can > still preserve the same look and feel of the web site. In that way, > when the user does go on-line later the enviornment will be familiar. > > This can be made to look quite professional with some good web design > (and I think we have people signed up that are good at this); certainly > much better than your average windows installer, with its ugly green > background and grey prompting windows. > > - Henrik I really like this idea of K-Meleon. It would take a little work, but I think it would be really nice. And as mentioned, with proper HTML design, the installer would look just as proffesional as any standalone. jaaron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com |
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From: Martin S. <bud...@bu...> - 2002-05-03 14:37:22
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Just tried to upload the version i've made to the ftp site. Don't know if it made it if not can you upload it Henrik. Cheers Martin On Fri, May 03, 2002 at 02:57:36PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > David and others, > > Yes, I basically agree with all of this. Let's make a version 0.01. > Perhaps we can just build on the one Martin made. I would suggest > choosing some small apps for the trial iso though, such as freeamp and > Xchat, so that we can easily distribute it amongst ourselves. > > An advantage of doing an Html Solution is that we can work on the > contents and the machinery in parallel. That is, one group can work on > making nice pages with information about the apps., install help, open > source backgound and all that, with the understanding that: "Yes, we > know that this does not work perfectly in all browsers, but it gives us > a good idea." And then others can work on customizing K-meleon (say) > with very clearly agreed upn specs. Namely that it should basically be > a stripped down HTML engine that runs in full screen mode and is able to > launch certain pre-defined .exe files without complaint. > > About the forum: The old data _has_ been saved, and Alan is now working > on trying to integrate it into the opensourceware.net forum. In any > case we should be able to make a long text file with all the posts if > nothing else. > > I have now enabled anonymous ftp with upload on theopencd.org site (ip: > 66.197.181.104) This should be fine as long as it doesn't get abused > ... There is limed space, but it should be ok for graphics and small > zip files. > > - Henrik > > On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 14:34, David Wheeler wrote: > > > > I believe the most important thing to do is GET STARTED. > > > > Pick just a few applications (say, Open Office and Mozilla), > > pick a simple way to get them installed (say, using HTML), > > create a simple ISO image that can invoke their installers, > > and release that as version 0.01 of the CD. > > Open Office is already officially out (as is Abiword), > > and there's no reason to wait for the next release of Mozilla. > > > > Once that's done, it will be MUCH easier to suggest improvements, > > and you counter the argument that "it's all vaporware". > > Plan to have a LOT of "developer" releases before and between each > > end-user release, just like any other open source/free software > > project. That way, you can find and fix more end-user problems. > > > > I posted a number of other suggestions on the other forum that > > are apparantly now trashed. I REALLY hope you can recover the > > data at least. For example, I provided some text that might be > > useful for your splash screen, and when you're ready to add > > open source software/free software documents, I gave lots of > > references for those documents (many of the references are available via > > http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_refs.html and > > http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html). > > > > In the longer term, I can imagine multiple versions of the CD. > > Perhaps there will be "desktop", "server", and "programmer" versions, > > each of which come in "Windows" and "MacOS" flavors. > > But start small and right away, then do the other stuff later. > > > > Also - I don't think you should include source code on the > > _same_ CD-ROM; most users won't request it, and those who later > > decide they want it can download it. Create a separate ISO image > > for the source code, and make that available at the website. > > Actually, for noncommercial redistribution you can just supply > > a link to where the code is. As I understand it, > > this is allowed by the GPL; here's the relevant GPL text > > for what you have to do if you don't include the source code: > > > > b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three > > years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your > > cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete > > machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be > > distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium > > customarily used for software interchange; or, > > > > c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer > > to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is > > allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you > > received the program in object code or executable form with such > > an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > > > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply > > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... > > _______________________________________________ > > Opencd-devel mailing list > > Ope...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel > -- > > Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford > 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road > Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP > h....@bt... he...@th... > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... > _______________________________________________ > Opencd-devel mailing list > Ope...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel > -- Budgester Technologies Ltd Office : 01992 718568 Mobile : 07815 982380 mailto:ma...@bu... http://www.budgester.com |
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From: Henrik N. O. <h....@bt...> - 2002-05-03 14:20:24
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On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 14:49, James Arthur wrote: > > Perhaps, but I would. If I was looking to get, say, a > copy of OpenOffice for Linux, I'd find someone who has > it on CD because it would take days to download it via > a modem. The source code effectively makes the CD > multi-platform. Linux users aren't going to be scared > by typing './configure && make && make install'. > Including the windows binaries _and_ the > multi-platform source means that you could hand the CD > over to anyone and it would appeal to both the newbies > and the experienced on a multitude of platforms. There are a million places to get free linux software on CDs; any linux distro will have that. The is _NO_ such option for Windws at the moment. This is the need we're trying to fill. Anyoe who is ableto type './configure' or even able to read a README file is alredy considered an advanced user in this context. We need to keeep it _very_ simple for the Windows crowd out there :) > > ...Or a second ISO containing the source. > > Or, and I'm not sure if anyone's considered this yet, > a DVD? There are a lot of people with DVD drives, and > quite a few with DVD+-R(W)/RAM drives. > Yeah, we've touched on that. In a year or two, I think :) - Henrik -- Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP h....@bt... he...@th... |
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From: Henrik N. O. <h....@bt...> - 2002-05-03 14:02:20
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David and others, Yes, I basically agree with all of this. Let's make a version 0.01. Perhaps we can just build on the one Martin made. I would suggest choosing some small apps for the trial iso though, such as freeamp and Xchat, so that we can easily distribute it amongst ourselves. An advantage of doing an Html Solution is that we can work on the contents and the machinery in parallel. That is, one group can work on making nice pages with information about the apps., install help, open source backgound and all that, with the understanding that: "Yes, we know that this does not work perfectly in all browsers, but it gives us a good idea." And then others can work on customizing K-meleon (say) with very clearly agreed upn specs. Namely that it should basically be a stripped down HTML engine that runs in full screen mode and is able to launch certain pre-defined .exe files without complaint. About the forum: The old data _has_ been saved, and Alan is now working on trying to integrate it into the opensourceware.net forum. In any case we should be able to make a long text file with all the posts if nothing else. I have now enabled anonymous ftp with upload on theopencd.org site (ip: 66.197.181.104) This should be fine as long as it doesn't get abused ... There is limed space, but it should be ok for graphics and small zip files. - Henrik On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 14:34, David Wheeler wrote: > > I believe the most important thing to do is GET STARTED. > > Pick just a few applications (say, Open Office and Mozilla), > pick a simple way to get them installed (say, using HTML), > create a simple ISO image that can invoke their installers, > and release that as version 0.01 of the CD. > Open Office is already officially out (as is Abiword), > and there's no reason to wait for the next release of Mozilla. > > Once that's done, it will be MUCH easier to suggest improvements, > and you counter the argument that "it's all vaporware". > Plan to have a LOT of "developer" releases before and between each > end-user release, just like any other open source/free software > project. That way, you can find and fix more end-user problems. > > I posted a number of other suggestions on the other forum that > are apparantly now trashed. I REALLY hope you can recover the > data at least. For example, I provided some text that might be > useful for your splash screen, and when you're ready to add > open source software/free software documents, I gave lots of > references for those documents (many of the references are available via > http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_refs.html and > http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html). > > In the longer term, I can imagine multiple versions of the CD. > Perhaps there will be "desktop", "server", and "programmer" versions, > each of which come in "Windows" and "MacOS" flavors. > But start small and right away, then do the other stuff later. > > Also - I don't think you should include source code on the > _same_ CD-ROM; most users won't request it, and those who later > decide they want it can download it. Create a separate ISO image > for the source code, and make that available at the website. > Actually, for noncommercial redistribution you can just supply > a link to where the code is. As I understand it, > this is allowed by the GPL; here's the relevant GPL text > for what you have to do if you don't include the source code: > > b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three > years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your > cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete > machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be > distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium > customarily used for software interchange; or, > > c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer > to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is > allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you > received the program in object code or executable form with such > an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... > _______________________________________________ > Opencd-devel mailing list > Ope...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel -- Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP h....@bt... he...@th... |
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From: <j_a...@ya...> - 2002-05-03 13:49:41
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> > We offer it as tarballs/ZIP files on the website. > The *vast* majority of > > people using the CD are not going to want the > source code. The majority > > probably aren't going to know what source code > even is. Perhaps, but I would. If I was looking to get, say, a copy of OpenOffice for Linux, I'd find someone who has it on CD because it would take days to download it via a modem. The source code effectively makes the CD multi-platform. Linux users aren't going to be scared by typing './configure && make && make install'. Including the windows binaries _and_ the multi-platform source means that you could hand the CD over to anyone and it would appeal to both the newbies and the experienced on a multitude of platforms. > I'd suggest, in my limited experience, that we take > a 700M CD, cram it with > useful apps & IF there is space left on the CD we > put the src on it. Once > there are enough (and their may be now) apps on the > CD that it is full we > move the src code to a website. ...Or a second ISO containing the source. Or, and I'm not sure if anyone's considered this yet, a DVD? There are a lot of people with DVD drives, and quite a few with DVD+-R(W)/RAM drives. Bye James Arthur __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com |
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From: David W. <dwh...@id...> - 2002-05-03 13:39:39
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I believe the most important thing to do is GET STARTED. Pick just a few applications (say, Open Office and Mozilla), pick a simple way to get them installed (say, using HTML), create a simple ISO image that can invoke their installers, and release that as version 0.01 of the CD. Open Office is already officially out (as is Abiword), and there's no reason to wait for the next release of Mozilla. Once that's done, it will be MUCH easier to suggest improvements, and you counter the argument that "it's all vaporware". Plan to have a LOT of "developer" releases before and between each end-user release, just like any other open source/free software project. That way, you can find and fix more end-user problems. I posted a number of other suggestions on the other forum that are apparantly now trashed. I REALLY hope you can recover the data at least. For example, I provided some text that might be useful for your splash screen, and when you're ready to add open source software/free software documents, I gave lots of references for those documents (many of the references are available via http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_refs.html and http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html). In the longer term, I can imagine multiple versions of the CD. Perhaps there will be "desktop", "server", and "programmer" versions, each of which come in "Windows" and "MacOS" flavors. But start small and right away, then do the other stuff later. Also - I don't think you should include source code on the _same_ CD-ROM; most users won't request it, and those who later decide they want it can download it. Create a separate ISO image for the source code, and make that available at the website. Actually, for noncommercial redistribution you can just supply a link to where the code is. As I understand it, this is allowed by the GPL; here's the relevant GPL text for what you have to do if you don't include the source code: b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) |
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From: Henrik N. O. <h....@bt...> - 2002-05-03 12:05:57
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On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 00:08, Steve Mallett wrote: > On Friday 03 May 2002 05:00 am, Toby Inkster wrote: > > On Fri, 3 May 2002 00:47:42 +0100 (BST) > > Imran Ghory <im...@bi...> wrote: > > > > IG> How are we going to satisfy our obligation to distribute the source > > IG> under GPL, are we going to include it (and thereby half the amount of > > IG> stuff we can get on the CD) or offer it seperately ? > > > > We offer it as tarballs/ZIP files on the website. The *vast* majority of > > people using the CD are not going to want the source code. The majority > > probably aren't going to know what source code even is. > > That may or may not be true. People who have vast computer experience (IT > depts) may have just the excuse they were looking for to install one of these > apps. Imagine the impact.... Timmy installs Mozilla, plays with it, likes > it. Conclusion: This really is good stuff. "Source code? They don't > really do that, that's crazy." Timmy surfs the CD. Holy Mackeral! They > really do distribute the source. Let's go that extra yard & hammer what > we're all about home. > > I'd suggest, in my limited experience, that we take a 700M CD, cram it with > useful apps & IF there is space left on the CD we put the src on it. Once > there are enough (and their may be now) apps on the CD that it is full we > move the src code to a website. First of all, I don't think we shuld cram in 700MB. We should follow very strict criteria for quality, which at the moment only gives us about 200MB I would think. Even so, I'm inclined to agree with Toby, that the source doesn't need to go on (it's not required by GPL either). The person who wants to play with it can find it online. For the rest, we should consider making a section "What is source?" The only important reason I can see for including all the source is for distribution to places like India, where there may not always be internet available, and it would be great to start some 12 year old off hacking his way out of poverty. Even then I think it might be better with a companion CD with all the source and devel tools. We'll have to go that route once the CD bis over half full anyway. - Henrik btw: lets take such discussions to the forum at opensourceware.net, it doesn't really pertain to installer development. -- Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP h....@bt... he...@th... |
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From: Steve M. <st...@op...> - 2002-05-03 11:08:50
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On Friday 03 May 2002 05:00 am, Toby Inkster wrote: > On Fri, 3 May 2002 00:47:42 +0100 (BST) > Imran Ghory <im...@bi...> wrote: > > IG> How are we going to satisfy our obligation to distribute the source > IG> under GPL, are we going to include it (and thereby half the amount of > IG> stuff we can get on the CD) or offer it seperately ? > > We offer it as tarballs/ZIP files on the website. The *vast* majority of > people using the CD are not going to want the source code. The majority > probably aren't going to know what source code even is. That may or may not be true. People who have vast computer experience (IT depts) may have just the excuse they were looking for to install one of these apps. Imagine the impact.... Timmy installs Mozilla, plays with it, likes it. Conclusion: This really is good stuff. "Source code? They don't really do that, that's crazy." Timmy surfs the CD. Holy Mackeral! They really do distribute the source. Let's go that extra yard & hammer what we're all about home. I'd suggest, in my limited experience, that we take a 700M CD, cram it with useful apps & IF there is space left on the CD we put the src on it. Once there are enough (and their may be now) apps on the CD that it is full we move the src code to a website. -- Steve Mallett | http://OSDir.org - Just Stable, Open Source Apps st...@op... | web...@op... http://open5ource.net <personal> "To use Linux without criticizing it is to betray it." -Clay Shirky |
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From: Henrik N. O. <h....@bt...> - 2002-05-03 10:18:24
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On Fri, 2002-05-03 at 08:57, Toby Inkster wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2002 21:14:14 -0700 (PDT) > J Aaron Farr <jaa...@ya...> wrote: > > JAF> Perhaps I should clarify by what I mean as an HTML based installer. > JAF> There's a difference between and HTML based installer and and > JAF> HTTP based installer.... > > I still don't think this is a great idea: > > 1) it would look less professional than a proper purpose-built application; and > 2) people are wary about installing things off the Internet -- yes, > *I* realise they would be installing things of the CD, not the > Internet... but would they? > What if we modify K-meleon in such a way that it's not possible for the novice to see that it's a browser. It can be run in a permanent full screen mode, and we can put in all our own buttons for navigation. In that case we should probably not link to any site on the net, but we can still preserve the same look and feel of the web site. In that way, when the user does go on-line later the enviornment will be familiar. This can be made to look quite professional with some good web design (and I think we have people signed up that are good at this); certainly much better than your average windows installer, with its ugly green background and grey prompting windows. - Henrik -- Henrik Nilsen Omma Theoretical Physics, Oxford 35 Frenchay Road 1 Keble Road Oxford OX2 6TG Oxford OX1 3NP h....@bt... he...@th... |
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