omail-devel

[Omail-devel] omail-webmail: what next?

[Olivier M. <om-...@om...>]

Hello, bonjour!

Since a few months I'm wondering what to do with the
omail-webmail project: should it be continued or
stopped? This is what I'd like to ask you (the =~ 200
people one these lists). 

The main concern I had 4 years ago, when I started 
omail-webmail (forked from the Neomail project) was speed 
& performance (& fun :) : it was then the case with direct 
Maildir access compared to complex access via imap.  
Openwebmail continued on this way for "mbox-based" accounts
(www.openwebmail.org), with many nice features, while
omail-webmail stayed a bit behind: there are many
features missing, especially folders support and 
decoding of base64-encoded mails to name just two of them. 

But omail-webmail is now old and IMHO not secure
enough for "serious" hosting (it even came on bugtraq last year:
http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/334056 and there
are probably other security issues): I belive that 
running a suidperl based CGI is not the best solution
nowadays. Other problem: the installation is still quite 
complex (check the ML archive :). 


Today it's easier to setup qmail + vmailmgr + courier-imap
and an imap-based webmail like squirrelmail than the
same with omail-webmail, there are even automated tools to
do that (cf freshmeat). And it's safer for the server too:
no more suidperl, and PHP is quite standard now too. 
I remember that it wasn't the case 3-4 years ago, with
IMP/horde setup and uw-imapd libraries, etc. 

So the question is: what next? :-)  Are there still 
people/servers using omail-webmail? 


>From a personal point of view, I think I'd rather concentrate
on other open source projects (omail-admin, ospam: spam 
fighing add-on for qmail+vmailmgr, and phpmyadmin) than 
spending more time on omail-webmail, trying to reinvent the
wheel and implement weird things (MIME support, attachments 
decoding, folders support etc) which are already nicely 
programmed elsewhere (squirrel, IMP, etc.). Or are
there people around willing to continue de developement
of omail-webmail?


All my customers are still using omail-webmail, so
in any case I will have to find a solution anyway :).  Now
I'm thinking about an automated transition to
squirrelmail, with scripts to (server-wide) convert 
omail's pseudo folders to courier-imap compatible IMAP 
folders, and if possible do the same with the addressbook.
Maybe you even already coded something like that?  


Feedback welcome!  It was fun working with you :-)

Regards,
Olivier
-- 
_______________________________________________________
 Olivier Müller - PGP key ID: 0x0E84D2EA - Switzerland 
    E-Mail: http://omx.ch/mail/ - AIM/iChat: swix3k

Re: [Omail-devel] omail-webmail: what next?

[Carter S. <der...@de...>]

Olivier,

Yes, it does seem that omail-webmail is in need of a change of
something.

I'd just like to point out that one of the special features that
omail-webmail has that other webmail packages don't seem to have is the
sheer number of translations.

Here are a few ideas that I've had which may or may not revitalize the
project:
- Implement omail-webmail using Template Toolkit (bugzilla uses it) to
allow easier separation of code and UI. This allows a non-programmer to
modify the UI without having to change the logic that drives the app. 
- Rewrite omail-webmail using the perl MailTool library. This would
allow omail-webmail to access imap, pop3, maildir, mbox, MH, and Outlook
Express (dbx) folders all at the same time or per user.

I also question whether or not webmail-omail has a future with products
such as squirrelmail being available, so I am curious to know what other
users of webmail-omail think.

Carter


On Wed, 2004-03-17 at 14:00, Olivier Mueller wrote:
> Hello, bonjour!
> 
> Since a few months I'm wondering what to do with the
> omail-webmail project: should it be continued or
> stopped? This is what I'd like to ask you (the =~ 200
> people one these lists). 
> 
> The main concern I had 4 years ago, when I started 
> omail-webmail (forked from the Neomail project) was speed 
> & performance (& fun :) : it was then the case with direct 
> Maildir access compared to complex access via imap.  
> Openwebmail continued on this way for "mbox-based" accounts
> (www.openwebmail.org), with many nice features, while
> omail-webmail stayed a bit behind: there are many
> features missing, especially folders support and 
> decoding of base64-encoded mails to name just two of them. 
> 
> But omail-webmail is now old and IMHO not secure
> enough for "serious" hosting (it even came on bugtraq last year:
> http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/334056 and there
> are probably other security issues): I belive that 
> running a suidperl based CGI is not the best solution
> nowadays. Other problem: the installation is still quite 
> complex (check the ML archive :). 
> 
> 
> Today it's easier to setup qmail + vmailmgr + courier-imap
> and an imap-based webmail like squirrelmail than the
> same with omail-webmail, there are even automated tools to
> do that (cf freshmeat). And it's safer for the server too:
> no more suidperl, and PHP is quite standard now too. 
> I remember that it wasn't the case 3-4 years ago, with
> IMP/horde setup and uw-imapd libraries, etc. 
> 
> So the question is: what next? :-)  Are there still 
> people/servers using omail-webmail? 
> 
> 
> >From a personal point of view, I think I'd rather concentrate
> on other open source projects (omail-admin, ospam: spam 
> fighing add-on for qmail+vmailmgr, and phpmyadmin) than 
> spending more time on omail-webmail, trying to reinvent the
> wheel and implement weird things (MIME support, attachments 
> decoding, folders support etc) which are already nicely 
> programmed elsewhere (squirrel, IMP, etc.). Or are
> there people around willing to continue de developement
> of omail-webmail?
> 
> 
> All my customers are still using omail-webmail, so
> in any case I will have to find a solution anyway :).  Now
> I'm thinking about an automated transition to
> squirrelmail, with scripts to (server-wide) convert 
> omail's pseudo folders to courier-imap compatible IMAP 
> folders, and if possible do the same with the addressbook.
> Maybe you even already coded something like that?  
> 
> 
> Feedback welcome!  It was fun working with you :-)
> 
> Regards,
> Olivier

Re: [Omail-devel] omail-webmail: what next?

[Jim W. <ji...@tv...>]

Personally, just my two cents
    I would love to see this project dropped and more time put into building
up oMail Admin, but I'm being selfish in this respect I know. ;)

We love oMail Admin.

Thanks all,
Jim
TVCNet.com


On 3/17/04 11:02 PM, "Carter Smithhart" <der...@de...> wrote:

> Olivier,
> 
> Yes, it does seem that omail-webmail is in need of a change of
> something.
> 
> I'd just like to point out that one of the special features that
> omail-webmail has that other webmail packages don't seem to have is the
> sheer number of translations.
> 
> Here are a few ideas that I've had which may or may not revitalize the
> project:
> - Implement omail-webmail using Template Toolkit (bugzilla uses it) to
> allow easier separation of code and UI. This allows a non-programmer to
> modify the UI without having to change the logic that drives the app.
> - Rewrite omail-webmail using the perl MailTool library. This would
> allow omail-webmail to access imap, pop3, maildir, mbox, MH, and Outlook
> Express (dbx) folders all at the same time or per user.
> 
> I also question whether or not webmail-omail has a future with products
> such as squirrelmail being available, so I am curious to know what other
> users of webmail-omail think.
> 
> Carter
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2004-03-17 at 14:00, Olivier Mueller wrote:
>> Hello, bonjour!
>> 
>> Since a few months I'm wondering what to do with the
>> omail-webmail project: should it be continued or
>> stopped? This is what I'd like to ask you (the =~ 200
>> people one these lists).
>> 
>> The main concern I had 4 years ago, when I started
>> omail-webmail (forked from the Neomail project) was speed
>> & performance (& fun :) : it was then the case with direct
>> Maildir access compared to complex access via imap.
>> Openwebmail continued on this way for "mbox-based" accounts
>> (www.openwebmail.org), with many nice features, while
>> omail-webmail stayed a bit behind: there are many
>> features missing, especially folders support and
>> decoding of base64-encoded mails to name just two of them.
>> 
>> But omail-webmail is now old and IMHO not secure
>> enough for "serious" hosting (it even came on bugtraq last year:
>> http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/334056 and there
>> are probably other security issues): I belive that
>> running a suidperl based CGI is not the best solution
>> nowadays. Other problem: the installation is still quite
>> complex (check the ML archive :).
>> 
>> 
>> Today it's easier to setup qmail + vmailmgr + courier-imap
>> and an imap-based webmail like squirrelmail than the
>> same with omail-webmail, there are even automated tools to
>> do that (cf freshmeat). And it's safer for the server too:
>> no more suidperl, and PHP is quite standard now too.
>> I remember that it wasn't the case 3-4 years ago, with
>> IMP/horde setup and uw-imapd libraries, etc.
>> 
>> So the question is: what next? :-)  Are there still
>> people/servers using omail-webmail?
>> 
>> 
>>> From a personal point of view, I think I'd rather concentrate
>> on other open source projects (omail-admin, ospam: spam
>> fighing add-on for qmail+vmailmgr, and phpmyadmin) than
>> spending more time on omail-webmail, trying to reinvent the
>> wheel and implement weird things (MIME support, attachments
>> decoding, folders support etc) which are already nicely
>> programmed elsewhere (squirrel, IMP, etc.). Or are
>> there people around willing to continue de developement
>> of omail-webmail?
>> 
>> 
>> All my customers are still using omail-webmail, so
>> in any case I will have to find a solution anyway :).  Now
>> I'm thinking about an automated transition to
>> squirrelmail, with scripts to (server-wide) convert
>> omail's pseudo folders to courier-imap compatible IMAP
>> folders, and if possible do the same with the addressbook.
>> Maybe you even already coded something like that?
>> 
>> 
>> Feedback welcome!  It was fun working with you :-)
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Olivier
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> 

Re: [Omail-devel] omail-webmail: what next?

[Olivier M. <om-...@om...>]

Thanks for your feedback (and work btw!) Carter,

On Wed, 2004-03-17 at 23:02 -0800, Carter Smithhart wrote:
> I'd just like to point out that one of the special features that
> omail-webmail has that other webmail packages don't seem to have is the
> sheer number of translations.

yes, getting the translations was really motivating :)   But Squirrel
and IMP both have many translations too:
http://www.squirrelmail.org/about.php or http://www.horde.org/imp/about/

> Here are a few ideas that I've had which may or may not revitalize the
> project:
> - Implement omail-webmail using Template Toolkit (bugzilla uses it) to
> allow easier separation of code and UI. This allows a non-programmer to
> modify the UI without having to change the logic that drives the app. 
> - Rewrite omail-webmail using the perl MailTool library. This would
> allow omail-webmail to access imap, pop3, maildir, mbox, MH, and Outlook
> Express (dbx) folders all at the same time or per user.

Well, both would require quite a 99% rewrite, so a few hundred hours...
Do you have so much time? If you're still student, maybe :)  But I'm not
one anymore. And with IMAP, is there really a need for maildir,
mh, pop3, etc. support? Well, it would surely be interesting to code:
this may be the positive point :)

> I also question whether or not webmail-omail has a future with products
> such as squirrelmail being available, so I am curious to know what other
> users of webmail-omail think.

Yep, let's see :)   
regards,
Olivier
-- 
_______________________________________________________
 Olivier Müller - PGP key ID: 0x0E84D2EA - Switzerland 
    E-Mail: http://omx.ch/mail/ - AIM/iChat: swix3k

[Omail-devel] Re: [Omail-news] omail-webmail: what next?

[Hans-Chr. J. <hc...@je...>]

Hello, bonjour Olivier

I have approx. 70 users running on omail-webmail, all being satisfied wit=
h
it. It serves it's purposes very well.

I have been experimenting with an IMAP server, mainly for giving access t=
o
my users through IMAP from e.g. Outlook and such (I have installed binc-i=
map
and it seems to work very well).

Up comes the question of putting a web interface for IMAP on the computer=
.
Why? To gain the folders functionallity along with storing the mail on th=
e
server when accessing from the web.
I will also admit that I have been looking (a little) at squirrelmail for
this purpose.

If You decide to concentrate on other things in your life (projects among=
st
others :-) I do understand and it is not like we're left without
alternatives. I do also agree with you on the other issues You've brought
up, except the one about omail-webmail being difficult to install :-)

I will probably keep omail-webmail running for quite a while (If it aint
broke, dont fix it :-), but looking for alternatives might be an activity
for the future :-)

I run a setup with qmail, vmailmgr, omail-admin, ospam, spamassassin,
binc-imap and omail-webmail. It all works well together.

I have been very happy with omail-admin (I hope very much that you will
continue development on this), since it has allowed me to run 20 domains,
without having to mess with the day to day issues. The users and their
administrators do all this them selves.

I have also been very happy with ospam so far. I'm running 0.01, and it
works :-)

The most dificult thing was to get spamassassin to work with the database=
,
from there on it was fairly easy :-)

I am unfortunately not in a position to takeover the project my self, or
even to contribute to the project. I'm just a user :-)

Anyway - Thanx for all the time you've put in. Hopefully you've got a lot=
 of
experience and FUN out of it.

Best regards and deep respect

Hans-Chr. Jehg

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Olivier Mueller" <om-...@om...>
To: "omail-devel" <oma...@li...>; "omail-news"
<oma...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: [Omail-news] omail-webmail: what next?


> Hello, bonjour!
>
> Since a few months I'm wondering what to do with the
> omail-webmail project: should it be continued or
> stopped? This is what I'd like to ask you (the =3D~ 200
> people one these lists).
>
> The main concern I had 4 years ago, when I started
> omail-webmail (forked from the Neomail project) was speed
> & performance (& fun :) : it was then the case with direct
> Maildir access compared to complex access via imap.
> Openwebmail continued on this way for "mbox-based" accounts
> (www.openwebmail.org), with many nice features, while
> omail-webmail stayed a bit behind: there are many
> features missing, especially folders support and
> decoding of base64-encoded mails to name just two of them.
>
> But omail-webmail is now old and IMHO not secure
> enough for "serious" hosting (it even came on bugtraq last year:
> http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/334056 and there
> are probably other security issues): I belive that
> running a suidperl based CGI is not the best solution
> nowadays. Other problem: the installation is still quite
> complex (check the ML archive :).
>
>
> Today it's easier to setup qmail + vmailmgr + courier-imap
> and an imap-based webmail like squirrelmail than the
> same with omail-webmail, there are even automated tools to
> do that (cf freshmeat). And it's safer for the server too:
> no more suidperl, and PHP is quite standard now too.
> I remember that it wasn't the case 3-4 years ago, with
> IMP/horde setup and uw-imapd libraries, etc.
>
> So the question is: what next? :-)  Are there still
> people/servers using omail-webmail?
>
>
> >From a personal point of view, I think I'd rather concentrate
> on other open source projects (omail-admin, ospam: spam
> fighing add-on for qmail+vmailmgr, and phpmyadmin) than
> spending more time on omail-webmail, trying to reinvent the
> wheel and implement weird things (MIME support, attachments
> decoding, folders support etc) which are already nicely
> programmed elsewhere (squirrel, IMP, etc.). Or are
> there people around willing to continue de developement
> of omail-webmail?
>
>
> All my customers are still using omail-webmail, so
> in any case I will have to find a solution anyway :).  Now
> I'm thinking about an automated transition to
> squirrelmail, with scripts to (server-wide) convert
> omail's pseudo folders to courier-imap compatible IMAP
> folders, and if possible do the same with the addressbook.
> Maybe you even already coded something like that?
>
>
> Feedback welcome!  It was fun working with you :-)
>
> Regards,
> Olivier
> --=20
> _______________________________________________________
>  Olivier M=FCller - PGP key ID: 0x0E84D2EA - Switzerland
>     E-Mail: http://omx.ch/mail/ - AIM/iChat: swix3k
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials
> Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of
> GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system
> administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D1470&alloc_id=3D3638&op=3Dc=
lick
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>