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From: Juan P. C. <car...@if...> - 2012-09-24 07:40:00
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On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Claudio Freire <kla...@gm...> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:55 AM, Paul Dreik <sl...@pa...> wrote: >> time make >> 72 seconds >> make clean (to get the caches warm. note, make clean does not remove >> slicotlibrary.a. Maybe it should?) >> time make >> 18 seconds >> make clean >> time make -j4 >> 12 seconds >> make clean >> rm slicotlibrary.a >> time make -j4 >> 63 seconds > > secs2d: > > time make: > real 0m11.763s > user 0m10.929s > sys 0m0.679s > > time make -j4: > real 0m5.897s > user 0m19.935s > sys 0m0.945s > > (system is dual core with HT, so this is an example of fully > parallelizable build) > > Anyway, like I said, the speed benefit is only secondary to being able > to specify proper CFLAGS. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > _______________________________________________ > Octave-dev mailing list > Oct...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev Good, we should improve the options parsing in pkg.m. This is already in the wiki. Can we go back to the scheduling of a "pkg.m improvement code sprint". Does anyone know a free/libre web-based event scheduling service? (otherwise we use doodle.com) -- M. Sc. Juan Pablo Carbajal ----- PhD Student University of Zürich http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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From: Juan P. C. <car...@if...> - 2012-09-24 07:23:46
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On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Carnë Draug <car...@gm...> wrote: > On 23 September 2012 14:47, Juan Pablo Carbajal <car...@if...> wrote: >> @Carnë: If you need help updatign the text in the website let me know, >> we should use this opportunity to put it up to date. > > I was more of a midndset to move the instructions to the wiki... > Should make it easier to change in the future. > > Carnë Sounds great, will also help in the transition to Agora. Ok, can you take the lead and create the corresponding pages so we can stat updating the content? When the process is over, I guess you will empty this page http://octave.sourceforge.net/developers.html and just live a nice link to the wiki, right? -- M. Sc. Juan Pablo Carbajal ----- PhD Student University of Zürich http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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From: Claudio F. <kla...@gm...> - 2012-09-24 07:09:40
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On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:55 AM, Paul Dreik <sl...@pa...> wrote: > time make > 72 seconds > make clean (to get the caches warm. note, make clean does not remove > slicotlibrary.a. Maybe it should?) > time make > 18 seconds > make clean > time make -j4 > 12 seconds > make clean > rm slicotlibrary.a > time make -j4 > 63 seconds secs2d: time make: real 0m11.763s user 0m10.929s sys 0m0.679s time make -j4: real 0m5.897s user 0m19.935s sys 0m0.945s (system is dual core with HT, so this is an example of fully parallelizable build) Anyway, like I said, the speed benefit is only secondary to being able to specify proper CFLAGS. |
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From: Paul D. <sl...@pa...> - 2012-09-24 06:55:50
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2012-09-24 01:59, Claudio Freire skrev: > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Paul Dreik <sl...@pa...> wrote: >>> I just added: >>> make pkg able to supply extra configure and make flags, useful for >>> distributions, including -j for make >> Just curios, are there any octave packages that benefit from parallel >> compilation? > > Well, for openSUSE, we build all packages at once, and it takes a very > long time, like an hour and a half, for about 80 packages. That's an > average build time of a minute per package, big enough to make a > difference with parallel compilation. > > I actually haven't tried though, convincing pkg.m to add extra flags > wasn't documented and seemed left out. Packaging would benefit from > being able to send config and make-time flags, besides the parallel > compilation aspect. Things like CFLAGS, for instance. > I think this is good and I do not oppose it at all! My thought was that make -j makes child processes of make run in parallel, which is different from having several instances of make run in parallel. That is why I asked if there is a package that improves from it - I guess a package has to use multiple source files, where at least some are nondependent so they can be compiled in parallel. One could of course imagine a situation where a Makefile spanning several packages is possible, made from the dependency information in the packages. Invoking make at the root of the package tree would certainly improve package generation if -j is used for that make invokation. But that is maybe what you do for opensuse? @Stephen: no, I did not mean the benefit was negligible, I meant if -j would make any difference at all because it requires the build to be possible to parallelize. @Juan Pablo: You answered my question! I tried with -j4 and the compilation time dropped certainly dropped, but only when the slicot library has been built. Below, the "real" time output from the time command is used: cd control/src time make 72 seconds make clean (to get the caches warm. note, make clean does not remove slicotlibrary.a. Maybe it should?) time make 18 seconds make clean time make -j4 12 seconds make clean rm slicotlibrary.a time make -j4 63 seconds Paul |
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From: Carnë D. <car...@gm...> - 2012-09-24 06:54:43
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On 23 September 2012 14:47, Juan Pablo Carbajal <car...@if...> wrote: > @Carnë: If you need help updatign the text in the website let me know, > we should use this opportunity to put it up to date. I was more of a midndset to move the instructions to the wiki... Should make it easier to change in the future. Carnë |
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From: Claudio F. <kla...@gm...> - 2012-09-24 00:00:00
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On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Paul Dreik <sl...@pa...> wrote: >> I just added: >> make pkg able to supply extra configure and make flags, useful for >> distributions, including -j for make > Just curios, are there any octave packages that benefit from parallel > compilation? Well, for openSUSE, we build all packages at once, and it takes a very long time, like an hour and a half, for about 80 packages. That's an average build time of a minute per package, big enough to make a difference with parallel compilation. I actually haven't tried though, convincing pkg.m to add extra flags wasn't documented and seemed left out. Packaging would benefit from being able to send config and make-time flags, besides the parallel compilation aspect. Things like CFLAGS, for instance. |
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From: Juan P. C. <car...@if...> - 2012-09-23 23:01:26
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On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Stephen Montgomery-Smith <st...@mi...> wrote: > On 09/23/2012 05:20 PM, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote: >> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Paul Dreik <sl...@pa...> wrote: >>> >>> >>> 2012-09-23 22:33, Claudio Freire skrev: >>>> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:06 PM, c. <car...@gm...> wrote: >>>>> I'm in. >>>>> >>>>> We should have the description of the required improvements at >>>>> >>>>> http://wiki.octave.org/Projects#Packaging >>>>> >>>>> a bit more specific before the sprint. >>>> >>>> I just added: >>>> make pkg able to supply extra configure and make flags, useful for >>>> distributions, including -j for make >>> Just curios, are there any octave packages that benefit from parallel >>> compilation? >>> paul >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. >>>> Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics >>>> Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: >>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? >>>> http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Octave-dev mailing list >>>> Oct...@li... >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. >>> Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics >>> Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: >>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? >>> http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Octave-dev mailing list >>> Oct...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev >> >> I do not understand the question and it seem off-topic. Can you open >> another thread to discuss that? > > The question made sense to me, and wasn't off topic. One person said it > would be nice if "-j" could be passed to make via pkg.m. Another person > asked if there would be any advantage to doing this (since "-j" causes > make to do parallel builds). Filling in the blanks, I assume he meant > that most packages build so fast that passing "-j" would be of very > little benefit. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. > Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics > Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? > http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html > _______________________________________________ > Octave-dev mailing list > Oct...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev oh! sorry then for my miss interpretation. Being able to pass "-j" to pkg would be perfect! @Paul: Sorry! If that was your question. Definitely, control for example would compile much faster if we can use multiple processors/cores. -- M. Sc. Juan Pablo Carbajal ----- PhD Student University of Zürich http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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From: Stephen Montgomery-S. <st...@mi...> - 2012-09-23 22:47:27
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On 09/23/2012 05:20 PM, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote: > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Paul Dreik <sl...@pa...> wrote: >> >> >> 2012-09-23 22:33, Claudio Freire skrev: >>> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:06 PM, c. <car...@gm...> wrote: >>>> I'm in. >>>> >>>> We should have the description of the required improvements at >>>> >>>> http://wiki.octave.org/Projects#Packaging >>>> >>>> a bit more specific before the sprint. >>> >>> I just added: >>> make pkg able to supply extra configure and make flags, useful for >>> distributions, including -j for make >> Just curios, are there any octave packages that benefit from parallel >> compilation? >> paul >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. >>> Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics >>> Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: >>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? >>> http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Octave-dev mailing list >>> Oct...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. >> Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics >> Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: >> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? >> http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Octave-dev mailing list >> Oct...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev > > I do not understand the question and it seem off-topic. Can you open > another thread to discuss that? The question made sense to me, and wasn't off topic. One person said it would be nice if "-j" could be passed to make via pkg.m. Another person asked if there would be any advantage to doing this (since "-j" causes make to do parallel builds). Filling in the blanks, I assume he meant that most packages build so fast that passing "-j" would be of very little benefit. |
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From: Juan P. C. <car...@if...> - 2012-09-23 22:20:22
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On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Paul Dreik <sl...@pa...> wrote: > > > 2012-09-23 22:33, Claudio Freire skrev: >> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:06 PM, c. <car...@gm...> wrote: >>> I'm in. >>> >>> We should have the description of the required improvements at >>> >>> http://wiki.octave.org/Projects#Packaging >>> >>> a bit more specific before the sprint. >> >> I just added: >> make pkg able to supply extra configure and make flags, useful for >> distributions, including -j for make > Just curios, are there any octave packages that benefit from parallel > compilation? > paul >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. >> Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics >> Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: >> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? >> http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Octave-dev mailing list >> Oct...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. > Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics > Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? > http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html > _______________________________________________ > Octave-dev mailing list > Oct...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev I do not understand the question and it seem off-topic. Can you open another thread to discuss that? Thanks -- M. Sc. Juan Pablo Carbajal ----- PhD Student University of Zürich http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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From: Paul D. <sl...@pa...> - 2012-09-23 21:58:13
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2012-09-23 22:33, Claudio Freire skrev: > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:06 PM, c. <car...@gm...> wrote: >> I'm in. >> >> We should have the description of the required improvements at >> >> http://wiki.octave.org/Projects#Packaging >> >> a bit more specific before the sprint. > > I just added: > make pkg able to supply extra configure and make flags, useful for > distributions, including -j for make Just curios, are there any octave packages that benefit from parallel compilation? paul > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. > Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics > Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? > http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html > _______________________________________________ > Octave-dev mailing list > Oct...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev > |
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From: Claudio F. <kla...@gm...> - 2012-09-23 20:33:25
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On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:06 PM, c. <car...@gm...> wrote: > I'm in. > > We should have the description of the required improvements at > > http://wiki.octave.org/Projects#Packaging > > a bit more specific before the sprint. I just added: make pkg able to supply extra configure and make flags, useful for distributions, including -j for make |
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From: c. <car...@gm...> - 2012-09-23 20:06:06
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On 23 Sep 2012, at 21:06, JuanPi wrote: > Hi, > > It has been a while since we talked about improving pkg.m. > > Shall we set a schedule for a sprint? > > Who is joining? I'm in. We should have the description of the required improvements at http://wiki.octave.org/Projects#Packaging a bit more specific before the sprint. c. |
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From: JuanPi <aj...@gm...> - 2012-09-23 19:06:10
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Hi, It has been a while since we talked about improving pkg.m. Shall we set a schedule for a sprint? Who is joining? -- JuanPi Carbajal ----- "It is one thing not to be able to perform a certain feat, but quite another to prove that it cannot be done." - Henry Ernest Dudeney ----- http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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From: Mike M. <mtm...@ie...> - 2012-09-23 13:20:04
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On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Juan Pablo Carbajal <car...@if...> wrote: > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Carnë Draug <car...@gm...> wrote: >> On 23 September 2012 13:06, c. <car...@gm...> wrote: >>> On 23 Sep 2012, at 12:47, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote: >>> >>>> You can get your own checkout command by going to your account --> >>>> projects --> Octave Forge --> Code >>>> >>>> However, what credentials should we use? My sourceforge credentials >>>> are not working for the checkout. >>>> >>> Is anonymous checkput still possible? >> >> Should be. On https://sourceforge.net/p/octave/code/ there's 3 buttons >> (RW/RO/HTTP). I imagine it means read+write and read only (through >> SSH) and http (that's the previous method). I'm also asked for a >> password when using the SSH methods and my SF password is not being >> accepted. As I never gave SF my public keys it can't be those either. >> But checking out through HTTPS is working fine. >> >> Carnë > > Works with HTTP! We should then recommend checking out with the HTTP option. > > @Carnë: If you need help updatign the text in the website let me know, > we should use this opportunity to put it up to date. All, SSH is working for me, you can add one or more SSH keys to your SF account at https://sourceforge.net/account/ssh and then it should work. -- mike |
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From: Juan P. C. <car...@if...> - 2012-09-23 12:47:47
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On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Carnë Draug <car...@gm...> wrote: > On 23 September 2012 13:06, c. <car...@gm...> wrote: >> On 23 Sep 2012, at 12:47, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote: >> >>> You can get your own checkout command by going to your account --> >>> projects --> Octave Forge --> Code >>> >>> However, what credentials should we use? My sourceforge credentials >>> are not working for the checkout. >>> >> Is anonymous checkput still possible? > > Should be. On https://sourceforge.net/p/octave/code/ there's 3 buttons > (RW/RO/HTTP). I imagine it means read+write and read only (through > SSH) and http (that's the previous method). I'm also asked for a > password when using the SSH methods and my SF password is not being > accepted. As I never gave SF my public keys it can't be those either. > But checking out through HTTPS is working fine. > > Carnë Works with HTTP! We should then recommend checking out with the HTTP option. @Carnë: If you need help updatign the text in the website let me know, we should use this opportunity to put it up to date. Cheers -- M. Sc. Juan Pablo Carbajal ----- PhD Student University of Zürich http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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From: Carnë D. <car...@gm...> - 2012-09-23 11:55:09
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On 23 September 2012 13:06, c. <car...@gm...> wrote: > On 23 Sep 2012, at 12:47, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote: > >> You can get your own checkout command by going to your account --> >> projects --> Octave Forge --> Code >> >> However, what credentials should we use? My sourceforge credentials >> are not working for the checkout. >> > Is anonymous checkput still possible? Should be. On https://sourceforge.net/p/octave/code/ there's 3 buttons (RW/RO/HTTP). I imagine it means read+write and read only (through SSH) and http (that's the previous method). I'm also asked for a password when using the SSH methods and my SF password is not being accepted. As I never gave SF my public keys it can't be those either. But checking out through HTTPS is working fine. Carnë |
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From: c. <car...@gm...> - 2012-09-23 11:05:44
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On 23 Sep 2012, at 12:47, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote: > You can get your own checkout command by going to your account --> > projects --> Octave Forge --> Code > > However, what credentials should we use? My sourceforge credentials > are not working for the checkout. > Is anonymous checkput still possible? c. |
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From: Juan P. C. <car...@if...> - 2012-09-23 10:48:07
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On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Carnë Draug <car...@gm...> wrote: > Hi everyone > > with the upgrade in sourceforge the location for the repository > changed so you should make a new checkout. See message below from > sourceforge. > > Carnë > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: SourceForge.net <nor...@in...> > Date: 23 September 2012 06:59 > Subject: SourceForge Repo Clone Complete > To: no...@in... > > > Your cloned repository code in project octave is now ready for use. > > Old repository url: http://octave.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/octave > > New repository checkout command: svn checkout --username=carandraug > svn+ssh://car...@sv.../p/octave/code/trunk octave-code > > You and any other developers should do a fresh checkout using the new > repository location. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. > Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics > Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? > http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html > _______________________________________________ > Octave-dev mailing list > Oct...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev You can get your own checkout command by going to your account --> projects --> Octave Forge --> Code However, what credentials should we use? My sourceforge credentials are not working for the checkout. -- M. Sc. Juan Pablo Carbajal ----- PhD Student University of Zürich http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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From: Carnë D. <car...@gm...> - 2012-09-23 10:08:50
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Hi everyone with the upgrade in sourceforge the location for the repository changed so you should make a new checkout. See message below from sourceforge. Carnë ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: SourceForge.net <nor...@in...> Date: 23 September 2012 06:59 Subject: SourceForge Repo Clone Complete To: no...@in... Your cloned repository code in project octave is now ready for use. Old repository url: http://octave.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/octave New repository checkout command: svn checkout --username=carandraug svn+ssh://car...@sv.../p/octave/code/trunk octave-code You and any other developers should do a fresh checkout using the new repository location. |
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From: Carnë D. <car...@gm...> - 2012-09-23 01:52:38
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Hi everyone the project in Sourceforge has been upgraded to their new system. Please let me know if anything is broken. Thanks, Carnë |
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From: Carnë D. <car...@gm...> - 2012-09-22 22:08:38
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On 22 September 2012 22:30, Rafael Laboissiere <ra...@la...> wrote: > * Carnë Draug <car...@gm...> [2012-09-21 15:56]: > >> a new release of signal package is out, version 1.2.0, by Carnë Draug. > > Thanks for this new release. A minor remark: file inst/clustersegment.m > in the tarball has wring permissions. Please, fix this in the next > release. Thanks for reporting. It has already been fixed (thanks to Juan Carbajal). Carnë |
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From: Juan P. C. <car...@if...> - 2012-09-22 22:03:59
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On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 10:30 PM, Rafael Laboissiere <ra...@la...> wrote: > * Carnë Draug <car...@gm...> [2012-09-21 15:56]: > >> a new release of signal package is out, version 1.2.0, by Carnë Draug. > > Thanks for this new release. A minor remark: file inst/clustersegment.m > in the tarball has wring permissions. Please, fix this in the next > release. > > Rafael > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > How fast is your code? > 3 out of 4 devs don\\\'t know how their code performs in production. > Find out how slow your code is with AppDynamics Lite. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219672;13503038;z? > http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html > _______________________________________________ > Octave-dev mailing list > Oct...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/octave-dev Hi Rafael, That was me again. Fixed it. i am sorry. I have to find out when these changes are happening. Thank you! -- M. Sc. Juan Pablo Carbajal ----- PhD Student University of Zürich http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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From: Rafael L. <ra...@la...> - 2012-09-22 20:31:02
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* Carnë Draug <car...@gm...> [2012-09-21 15:56]: > a new release of signal package is out, version 1.2.0, by Carnë Draug. Thanks for this new release. A minor remark: file inst/clustersegment.m in the tarball has wring permissions. Please, fix this in the next release. Rafael |
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From: Andrius S. <and...@gm...> - 2012-09-22 20:24:21
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On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 8:50 PM, JuanPi <aj...@gm...> wrote: > Hi Andrius, > > - Will you prepare some tutorials for your package? If you do, you can > use the wiki to do so, like this one > http://wiki.octave.org/Bim_package > - Would it be possible to have a video with a hardware > application/demonstration? @Lukas (paramaniac): You were also > interested in something like this, right? > > Keep us updated. > > Thank you! > > > -- > JuanPi Carbajal > ----- > "It is one thing not to be able to perform a certain feat, but quite > another to prove that it cannot be done." - Henry Ernest Dudeney > ----- > http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ > Hey, > Will you prepare some tutorials for your package? Sure thing! > Would it be possible to have a video with a hardware application/demonstration? Yes, as we already talked about this on IRC, but we need to decide on what exactly video should be about. Right now I am fixing things we discussed and working towards public release. Best Regards, |
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From: JuanPi <aj...@gm...> - 2012-09-22 19:51:08
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Hi Andrius, - Will you prepare some tutorials for your package? If you do, you can use the wiki to do so, like this one http://wiki.octave.org/Bim_package - Would it be possible to have a video with a hardware application/demonstration? @Lukas (paramaniac): You were also interested in something like this, right? Keep us updated. Thank you! -- JuanPi Carbajal ----- "It is one thing not to be able to perform a certain feat, but quite another to prove that it cannot be done." - Henry Ernest Dudeney ----- http://ailab.ifi.uzh.ch/carbajal/ |
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