Re: [Numpy-discussion] include file location and .eggs

[<kon...@la...>]

On Jan 23, 2006, at 19:03, Andrew Straw wrote:

> The problem is backwards compatibility. Nothing like this is =20
> implemented
> in plain distutils, which is why the packages will have to support it
> themselves. This way they can keep working in both old distutils-based
> environments and new ones, including with setuptools. The current
> solution _works_ on yesteryear's Python 2.3. In my opinion, relying on

Well, I'd argue it doesn't work at all, because it doesn't scale to =20
complex dependency trees.

> Distutils never handled the case when, for example you installed =20
> Numeric
> with '/usr/local/bin/python2.3 setup.py install
> --prefix=3D/home/astraw/py23'. In this case, sure, the package got
> installed where I wanted (in my $PYTHONPATH) in
> /home/astraw/py23/lib/python2.3/site-packages/Numeric, but the headers
> were in /home/astraw/py23/include/python2.3/Numeric. Distutils would

True. It was always true that if you install anywhere but in the =20
default location, you are on your own. But if you do keep the default =20=

location (as most users do), everything works fine.

> never find those headers again. This is exactly the same problem, and
> it's one that distutils never solved, and I don't think we should hold
> our breath waiting for Python 2.5's distutils to solve it. For one

Why not contribute to solving it?

> thing, it's already solved at the package level a la numpy. For =20
> another,
> given that it's already solved, who's going to bother attempting to =20=

> make

I don't think it is solved at all.

> Why is "import numpy; include_dirs=3Dnumpy.get_numpy_include()" in
> setup.py unpalatable for you? That's all that is required in setup.py.

Let's go back to my initial scenario, and let's even forget about =20
multiple versions. I have ScientificPython, which can be compiled for =20=

use with either Numeric or numarray, and some day NumPy will be a =20
third choice. Then I install MMTK, which depends on ScientificPython. =20=

How is the MMTK installation script supposed to figure out if =20
ScientificPython was compiled with Numeric, numarray, or NumPy? And =20
how is it supposed to know where each of these packages stores its =20
header files?

I don't mind adding some lines to setup.py for each package, that's a =20=

small price to pay. But I do mind having to worry about indirect =20
dependencies.

> to argue this is more pain than you're willing to deal with, I think
> that, to be fair, you need to give a counter-example whereby you =20
> explain
> how you handle all those versions of Numeric and Scientific installed
> simultaneously and how you select among them. I'll admit that in the

I don't, except on my development machine, where I used symbolic =20
links that are changed using scripts. That's a bit of work to set up, =20=

but I have only two packages of which I use multiple versions, so =20
doing it once is acceptable for me.

In fact, my main worry is not my own machine, nor the machine of any =20
competent Python programmer. My worry is the less competent user who =20
can't get installation of my packages to work and turns to me for =20
help. Tech support takes more of my time than development these days. =20=

A fragile dependency system such as the one you propose will only =20
create more support questions on my side - so don't expect me to =20
support it.

> Like I said above, distutils has no such equivalent mechanism, and =20
> this
> _allows_ something that simply wasn't possible before and is arguably
> broken in distutils.

I am all for fixing distutils.

Konrad.
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Konrad Hinsen
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