notion-general — General discussion about the notion window manager

[Notion-general] Notion 3-2011102900 released!

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

Hello,

I'm proud to present the first release of Notion, a tiling, tabbed window 
manager for the X window system.

A big thanks to all who made this possible, by providing test feedback, ideas,
code and encouragement.

= History =

Notion is a fork of Ion, which has been abandoned by its original author, 
Tuomo Valkonen.

Former Ion3 users will be glad to hear any changes to configuration will be 
backwards-compatible, so you can simply drop your ~/.ion3 tweaks into 
~/.notion and rename cfg_ion.lua to cfg_notion.lua .

= About Notion =

Notion is a tiling, tabbed window manager for the X window system:

    Tiling: you divide the screen into non-overlapping 'tiles'. Every window 
        occupies one tile, and is maximized to it
    Tabbing: a tile may contain multiple windows - they will be 'tabbed'
    Static: most tiled window managers are 'dynamic', meaning they 
        automatically resize and move around tiles as windows appear and 
        disappear. Notion, by contrast, does not automatically change the 
        tiling. You're in control.

Features include:

    Workspaces: each workspace has its own tiling
    Multihead: the mod_xinerama plugin provides very nice dual-monitor support
    RandR: mod_xrandr picks up changes in the xrandr configuration without the
        need for restarting Notion (read this, though)
    Extensibility: Notion can be extended with lua scripts. Browse through the
        scripts collection

Supported platforms are currently Linux and Solaris (Solaris 10, OpenSolaris 
as well as OpenIndiana). BSD is not currently supported, but Notion is reported
to work on FreeBSD quite easily. Check the website for instructions.

= Changes since Ion3 =

We have been careful trying not to introduce any regressions with respect to
Ion3. The most prominent changes are:

    Handle XConfigureRequestEvent's moving transient dialogs to incorrect 
        locations (#3167262)
    Addition of 'lazy_resize' winprop option for applications that resize slowly
    EMWH: always encode _NET_WM_NAME as UTF8_STRING
    EMWH: support for _NET_ACTIVE_WINDOW
    EMWH: fixed issue in _NET_WM_USER_TIME handling that caused new windows 
        not to receive the focus (#3109576)
    Fix miscalculations and infinite loops in tab width calculation
    mod_xinerama: take into account changes to the screen topology without 
        needing to restart Notion
    mod_xinerama: support for overlapping screens
    Introduce mod_xkbevents
    mod_xrandr: introduction of a randr_screen_change_notify hook
    Various cleanups to the build system, including improved lua autodetection
    Renamed project to Notion - required due to trademark/licensing terms

= Getting it =

Get it at http://notion.sf.net (under 'Downloads').


Kind regards,

Arnout

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[David G. <dg...@co...>]

On 22/10/11 00:11, Arnout Engelen wrote:
> Seems quite short and sweet. 'Define a tweak' is a bit too terse for the 
> documentation imho - you should at least explain what a 'tweak' is/does. Is 
> 'tweak' a good name?

I haven't done any documentation yet (it it built from those --DOC
comments, or does it live anywhere else?). And I'm not sold on the name.
defwinproptweak? Something else?

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ───── http://www.cowlark.com ─────
│
│ "Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, it's just the
│ opposite." --- John Kenneth Galbrith

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:38:00PM +0100, David Given wrote:
> On 21/10/11 11:34, David Given wrote:
> [...]
> > Possibly rather than try to change the defwinprop behaviour, it would be
> > better to do this via new behaviour?
> 
> New patch enclosed --- much simpler, doesn't change existing behaviour,
> and more flexible. Use it like this:
> 
> tweakwinprop(
> 	function(prop, cwin, id)
> 		if (prop.float == nil) then
> 			prop.float = true
> 		end
> 	end)
> 
> How does that sound?

Seems quite short and sweet. 'Define a tweak' is a bit too terse for the 
documentation imho - you should at least explain what a 'tweak' is/does. Is 
'tweak' a good name?

Does anyone else have a chance to look at the proposed change? Is this a 
reasonable approach?


Arnout

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[David G. <dg...@co...>]

On 21/10/11 11:34, David Given wrote:
[...]
> Possibly rather than try to change the defwinprop behaviour, it would be
> better to do this via new behaviour?

New patch enclosed --- much simpler, doesn't change existing behaviour,
and more flexible. Use it like this:

tweakwinprop(
	function(prop, cwin, id)
		if (prop.float == nil) then
			prop.float = true
		end
	end)

How does that sound?

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ───── http://www.cowlark.com ─────
│
│ "Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, it's just the
│ opposite." --- John Kenneth Galbrith

Re: [Notion-general] floating pop-up

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 01:00:34AM +0200, Wojtek Aniszewski wrote:
> Well, Juri's advice helped in that I know I have some possibility of
> forcing windows to float. So for example, I have added a defwinprop
> for gimp, and all gimpish windows float.

Great. After the initial release, I think we should spend some time creating
a good set of default winprops.

> Now, this is a tricky matter, so I will try and give you the best
> example I can, and simple too. So let's say you open eog (eye of
> gnome) in a tiled ("default" type) workspace. It is sucked into a tile
> (stretched) and sits there. That's ok, I expect this. 

OK

> But then, I click "File>Open" and the "Open file" dialog is stretched too. 
> THIS is the "pop-up" I've been talking about (to be clear - I would like this
> window to float and NOT GET RESIZED (it has a convinient default
> size)). Maybe I should have called it "dialogs". 

I agree. This is a dialog, and dialogs should float.

> I say more: over two years of using ion/notion - this is what sucks
> the most. 
> Want a spectacular example? - no problem. Try open/save
> dialogs in Audacity. If ever opened on a tiling workspace, audacity's
> open/save dialogs are stretched in good'old way. But when later opened
> on a floating workspace, they tend to not only remember they were
> stretched, but ...stretch further (approximately, to size 5000x300 or
> something). I daresay it may piss the hell out of anyone:)

I agree, though this sounds at least partly as a bug in Audacity too :).

> How would I like notion to know what is a dialog? Well, I'm a
> scientist and I mostly program CFD in Fortran, so don't expect
> interface-wisdom from me:) But the most obvious guess would be:
> 1. eog opens,gets its window class and instance
> 2. if another window of the same class opens, it should float.
> Unfortunately, as I can check by clicking rmb, the 'open' dialog has
> the same class, instance, only different XID. This cold be used
> somehow, I guess. I know it's not a good plan, because it modifies
> behavior for all subsequently opened eog windows, not only dialogs.
> But well...

Right. Luckily, there are 2 standardized ways in which dialogs can be 
identified.

Dialogs should set the standard ICCCM WM_TRANSIENT_FOR property (see also
http://tronche.com/gui/x/icccm/sec-4.html#WM_TRANSIENT_FOR ). I think Notion
already treats windows with WM_TRANSIENT_FOR better (though I'm not sure about
'good').

Unfortunately, Eog does not appear to set the WM_TRANSIENT_FOR property on the
'Open Image' dialog. Arguably that's a bug in Eog or even Gnome.

There is, however, a second way to identify dialogs: the EWMH/NETWM extensions
to the specification add a _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE property that can be set to
_NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DIALOG. Notion currently only does something special with
windows of type _NET_WM_WINDOW_DOCK (when mod_dock is loaded).

We should probably treat windows of type _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DIALOG the same 
as windows with WM_TRANSIENT_FOR set. Would you like to submit a feature 
request for that? Mention Eog and Audacity so we can verify that this indeed
has the desired result.

> sorry for writing such a long post! (I had to throw it out:))

No problem at all!


Kind regards,

Arnout

> 2011/10/20 Arnout Engelen <arn...@bz...>:
> > Hello Wojtek,
> >
> > Did Juri's reply answer your questions? I'd be curious to know how you'd
> > want notion to decide which application to float and which to open in a
> > frame.
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Arnout
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 03:26:31PM +0200, Wojtek Aniszewski wrote:
> >> Hi.
> >> Sorry if this has been mentioned before. So, point is: is there a way
> >> to make new (popping up) window float by default?
> >> I mean even on a tiled workspace. Such as, for example, I'm opening
> >> four consoles on a tiled workspace, run $mplayer foo.avi in one of
> >> them , and I like the new mplayer window to float, not to be trapped
> >> in the tiling.
> >> (I think that awesome has something like this by default.)
> >> I'm not making a feature request out of it, just ask if this can be
> >> done, e.g. by tweaking cfg_ioncore.

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[David G. <dg...@co...>]

Arnout Engelen wrote:
[...]
> Not sure how to make it more prominent - did you search for it at all? where?

All my fault; I was looking at the Documentation section on the website,
but originally skipped that link because it said *advanced*
configuration; I assumed it was all about writing extensions, which I
wasn't doing at the time.

[...]
> - Can we think of a way to introduce this without breaking the carefully-
>   constructed winprop configurations of our current users (and all ion3 
>   users)?

Absolutely --- we don't want to break anything.

Possibly rather than try to change the defwinprop behaviour, it would be
better to do this via new behaviour? Maybe something as simple as:

add_winprop_hook(
	function(prop, cwin, id)
		-- make all windows float unless specified otherwise
		if not prop.float then
			prop.float = true
		end
	end
)
		
These then get run (in order) after ioncore.getwinprop() has scanned the
defwinprop list. This should satisfy Principle of Least Surprise while
at the same time being more flexible.

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ───── http://www.cowlark.com ─────
│ "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
│ telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out
│ how to use my telephone." --- Bjarne Stroustrup

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:52:00PM +0100, David Given wrote:
> On 20/10/11 22:31, Arnout Engelen wrote:
> [...]
> > To read client window properties from lua, use ioncore.x_get_window_property
> > (http://notion.sourceforge.net/notionconf/node7.html#fn:ioncore.x_get_window_property)
> > and check out the atom-related functions.
> 
> Documentation! Thanks very much for the link --- I'd totally failed to
> find that before.

Not sure how to make it more prominent - did you search for it at all? where?

> > To get your desired behavior of having all windows float by default, I'm not 
> > sure I know of an elegant way to do that right now. Indeed having all matching
> > winprops 'stack' their options seems like a neat idea, but it might have quite
> > a bit of impace - we should carefully consider it.
> 
> In fact, I've just changed ioncore_winprop.lua to support this. It now
> matches against all the defwinprop statements, in order, and accumulates
> settings from each one. 
>
> ...and it actually *works* --- windows all float by default, except
> Chrome, which gets tiled.
> 
> Of course, the stock Notion only has two defwinprop statements by
> default, neither of which are active on my system, so it's hardly a good
> test. But the patch is enclosed...

Yes, this would indeed merge the winprops - thanks for diving in.

Still, we should carefully consider a couple things:
- Language power: I think we have established that this approach allows us to
  neatly express some configurations that we couldn't express with the old 
  semantics. Can we also think of configurations that could be expressed in 
  the old semantics but not in the new ones? Can we do anything about those?
- When defining more and more rules, does the configuration remain readable
  (and thus maintainable)? Will unexpected side-effects lead to confusion?
- Can we think of a way to introduce this without breaking the carefully-
  constructed winprop configurations of our current users (and all ion3 
  users)?


Kind regards,

Arnout

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[David G. <dg...@co...>]

On 20/10/11 22:31, Arnout Engelen wrote:
[...]
> To read client window properties from lua, use ioncore.x_get_window_property
> (http://notion.sourceforge.net/notionconf/node7.html#fn:ioncore.x_get_window_property)
> and check out the atom-related functions.

Documentation! Thanks very much for the link --- I'd totally failed to
find that before.

> To get your desired behavior of having all windows float by default, I'm not 
> sure I know of an elegant way to do that right now. Indeed having all matching
> winprops 'stack' their options seems like a neat idea, but it might have quite
> a bit of impace - we should carefully consider it.

In fact, I've just changed ioncore_winprop.lua to support this. It now
matches against all the defwinprop statements, in order, and accumulates
settings from each one. I have this:

defwinprop {
	float = true
}

defwinprop {
	class = "Google-chrome",
	float = false
}

...and it actually *works* --- windows all float by default, except
Chrome, which gets tiled.

Of course, the stock Notion only has two defwinprop statements by
default, neither of which are active on my system, so it's hardly a good
test. But the patch is enclosed...

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ───── http://www.cowlark.com ─────
│
│ "Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, it's just the
│ opposite." --- John Kenneth Galbrith

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 08:44:49PM +0100, David Given wrote:
> F9 asks for the workspace type. 

Right: choosing the 'empty' workspace layout gets you a floating ws.

> I have, however, found Tiling->Untile and Context->New Tiling which convert 
> to and from floating mode respectively.

OK

> What I really want is a tiled workspace, over which windows appear
> floating by default (unless the user has previously specified a rule, or
> manually drops a window into a frame).

Aha, yes.

> Looking at the way defwinprops work, it appears as though the first
> defwinprop that matches is used; that is, settings don't stack. 

Indeed they don't stack. I updated the 'Winprops' section of the notionconf
document to better describe the matching algorithm - see
http://notion.sourceforge.net/notionconf/node4.html#SECTION00450000000000000000

Documentation improvement suggestions/patches are certainly welcome :).

> >> I did spend some time fiddling with mod_dock but there's no documentation 
> >> for that either. I think I did manage to get it to swallow a panel once 
> >> but it then expanded to fill 2/3 of the screen...
> 
> I found out why this happened: the dock swallowed the top-bar (which is
> one screen wide), then the gkrellm (which is 2/3 of a screen high), then
> the bottom-bar (which is one screen wide). So the dock ended up being
> about two screens wide and 2/3 of a screen high, with only the top-bar
> visible.

Jep, that sounds entirely plausible.

> [...]
> > The sf.net trackers, https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=314802
> 
> Okay, I've done that here.
> 
> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3426524&group_id=314802&atid=1324531
>
> I've labelled it 'EMWH compliance' because, hey, I can dream...

I share your dream :). Might be good to have a seperate issue per feature
though, so we can keep discussions somewhat focussed.

> >> (I'm also wondering whether the defwinprop stuff is flexible enough to 
> >> support this without needing any core changes.)
> > 
> > I'm not sure.
> 
> It's not --- it can only match on class, role and instance.
> 
> A more sophisticated matching engine would certainly be possible, but
> given all this is Lua, maybe something like:
> 
> defwinprop {
>   predicate = function(w)
>     return w._NET_WINDOW_TYPE == "_NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DOCK"
>   end,
> 
>   floating = true -- or something
> }
> 
> ...would be possible? 

In fact, specifying a custom predicate is already possible, it was just not 
documented :(. You can override the 'match' function, for example like this:

defwinprop {
   class = "Npviewer.bin",
   match = function(prop, cwin, id)
              return is_fullscreen(cwin)
           end,
   switchto = false,
   flash_fullscreen = true,
}

To read client window properties from lua, use ioncore.x_get_window_property
(http://notion.sourceforge.net/notionconf/node7.html#fn:ioncore.x_get_window_property)
and check out the atom-related functions.

To get your desired behavior of having all windows float by default, I'm not 
sure I know of an elegant way to do that right now. Indeed having all matching
winprops 'stack' their options seems like a neat idea, but it might have quite
a bit of impace - we should carefully consider it.


Kind regards,

Arnout

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[David G. <dg...@co...>]

On 20/10/11 20:44, David Given wrote:
[...]
> defwinprop {
>   predicate = function(w)
>     return w._NET_WINDOW_TYPE == "_NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DOCK"
>   end,
> 
>   floating = true -- or something
> }

Turns out 'predicate' is already supported, and it's called 'match':

defwinprop {
  match = function(properties, window, windowattrs)
    return windowattrs.class == "mywindowclass"
  end,

  floating = true
}

winprops are ordered for each {class, role, instance} tuple, but the
tuples themselves are unordered.

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ───── http://www.cowlark.com ─────
│
│ "Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, it's just the
│ opposite." --- John Kenneth Galbrith

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[David G. <dg...@co...>]

On 20/10/11 17:01, Arnout Engelen wrote:
[...]
> In the old days F9 asked for the workspace type. Since some time before 
> http://notion.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=notion/notion;a=commit;h=3d38954deab0146e60f7f30ff44f0684b77c7500 
> you could use the context command new-empty-workspace instead. 
> That appears to have disappeared, too, though. Not sure what the proper way
> is now. Anyone?

I'm running the most recent snapshot, and F9 asks for the workspace
type. I have, however, found Tiling->Untile and Context->New Tiling
which convert to and from floating mode respectively.

[...]
> You don't need that when you're using a WFloatWS though do you?

What I really want is a tiled workspace, over which windows appear
floating by default (unless the user has previously specified a rule, or
manually drops a window into a frame).

Looking at the way defwinprops work, it appears as though the first
defwinprop that matches is used; that is, settings don't stack. I was
rather hoping I could just put:

defwinprop {
  floating = true
}

...at the top of my config file and so have all windows floating by
default, but that doesn't work. OTOH it doesn't look like it would be
hard to modify ioncore.getwinprop() to stack settings. I don't know what
horrible side effects this might have.

[...]
> I'm not sure mod_dock supports having panels on multiple sides of the screen.
> Anyone?

Is it possible to create multiple docks?

>> I did spend some time fiddling with mod_dock but there's no documentation 
>> for that either. I think I did manage to get it to swallow a panel once but 
>> it then expanded to fill 2/3 of the screen...
> 
> Hmm not sure. I notice mod_dock doesn't always work when I just restart Notion,
> I have to restart gnome-panel itself, too.

I found out why this happened: the dock swallowed the top-bar (which is
one screen wide), then the gkrellm (which is 2/3 of a screen high), then
the bottom-bar (which is one screen wide). So the dock ended up being
about two screens wide and 2/3 of a screen high, with only the top-bar
visible.

[...]
> The sf.net trackers, https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=314802

Okay, I've done that here.

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3426524&group_id=314802&atid=1324531

I've labelled it 'EMWH compliance' because, hey, I can dream...

>> (I'm also wondering whether the defwinprop stuff is flexible enough to 
>> support this without needing any core changes.)
> 
> I'm not sure.

It's not --- it can only match on class, role and instance.

A more sophisticated matching engine would certainly be possible, but
given all this is Lua, maybe something like:

defwinprop {
  predicate = function(w)
    return w._NET_WINDOW_TYPE == "_NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DOCK"
  end,

  floating = true -- or something
}

...would be possible? Again, not hard --- code in clientwin_get_ident()
to export the properties, and changing ioncore.getwinprop() --- but I
just don't know enough about the Notion innards to know if it's a good
idea or not.

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ───── http://www.cowlark.com ─────
│
│ "Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, it's just the
│ opposite." --- John Kenneth Galbrith

Re: [Notion-general] Probably release?

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 08:15:39PM +0400, Krutov Mihail wrote:
> Whats about making a release of notion window manager?

Hello Krutov,

Thanks for your mail - we're working on it! You can consider the current 
source package available from sourceforge a 'release candidate' - a few 
improvements have been done since, but nothing major, so I expect the release 
will look a lot like this.

Try it, and if you run into any trouble, your feedback is very welcome!


Kind regards,

Arnout

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 03:45:20PM +0100, David Given wrote:
> Arnout Engelen wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 01:14:49PM +0100, David Given wrote:
> >> I would like to use Notion with Gnome. (Don't laugh, okay?) (And right
> >> now this is all in floating mode.) 
> > 
> > How do you create a floating workspace? This appears to have become an
> > undocumented feature. I think we should document it :).
> 
> Er... I think I just closed all frames and it Just Happened. I know it's
> possible, I did it back in the Before Time, but haven't done it
> recently. 

In the old days F9 asked for the workspace type. Since some time before 
http://notion.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=notion/notion;a=commit;h=3d38954deab0146e60f7f30ff44f0684b77c7500 
you could use the context command new-empty-workspace instead. 
That appears to have disappeared, too, though. Not sure what the proper way
is now. Anyone?

> (Currently I have a bunch of defwinprop { float = true } to
> float windows over the frames.)

You don't need that when you're using a WFloatWS though do you?

> Anyway, slight background: what I want to do is to configure Notion to
> be, by default, a floating window manager, and then add frames for
> specific windows only. 

Interesting

> There's too much stuff these days that doesn't
> get on well with frames. The amount of time I've spent trying to figure
> out why my wireless wasn't working, because the 'Enter Wireless Key'
> dialogue had appeared squashed into the tiny frame containing
> stalonetray and I hadn't seen it, isn't funny.

Ouch...

> [...]
> > For me, in a normal tiled workspace, loading mod_dock causes gnome-panel
> > to open as a proper 'panel' instead of as a normal window.
> 
> This is with Gnome 3 in fallback mode, which creates panels top and
> bottom (and then I have gkrellm off to the right). 

Ah ok. Right now I'm using the gnome2 gnome-panel configured to use only
a bottom panel.

I'm not sure mod_dock supports having panels on multiple sides of the screen.
Anyone?

> I did spend some time fiddling with mod_dock but there's no documentation 
> for that either. I think I did manage to get it to swallow a panel once but 
> it then expanded to fill 2/3 of the screen...

Hmm not sure. I notice mod_dock doesn't always work when I just restart Notion,
I have to restart gnome-panel itself, too.

> [...]
> > For a tiling workspace, i think it makes sense to ignore this request. For a
> > floating one, it'd make sense to honour it indeed. Could you submit a 
> > feature request for this?
> 
> Where's good? 

The sf.net trackers, https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=314802

> (I'm also wondering whether the defwinprop stuff is flexible enough to 
> support this without needing any core changes.)

I'm not sure.

> Also: nautilus tried to claim the root window and I ended up with a
> gigantic floating window. A floating workspace is about the only time
> when a root window is relevant in Notion, so I'm not surprised it's not
> supported. Would this be easy to change?

It looks like Nautilus doesn't actually change the root window, but instead 
creates a window with _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE set to _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DESKTOP.
Sounds like we could make Notion honour that on floating workspaces, but not
sure how hard that would be. Also one for the feature requests I suppose :).


Kind regards,

Arnout

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[David G. <dg...@co...>]

Arnout Engelen wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 01:14:49PM +0100, David Given wrote:
>> I would like to use Notion with Gnome. (Don't laugh, okay?) (And right
>> now this is all in floating mode.) 
> 
> How do you create a floating workspace? This appears to have become an
> undocumented feature. I think we should document it :).

Er... I think I just closed all frames and it Just Happened. I know it's
possible, I did it back in the Before Time, but haven't done it
recently. (Currently I have a bunch of defwinprop { float = true } to
float windows over the frames.)

Anyway, slight background: what I want to do is to configure Notion to
be, by default, a floating window manager, and then add frames for
specific windows only. There's too much stuff these days that doesn't
get on well with frames. The amount of time I've spent trying to figure
out why my wireless wasn't working, because the 'Enter Wireless Key'
dialogue had appeared squashed into the tiny frame containing
stalonetray and I hadn't seen it, isn't funny.

[...]
> For me, in a normal tiled workspace, loading mod_dock causes gnome-panel
> to open as a proper 'panel' instead of as a normal window.

This is with Gnome 3 in fallback mode, which creates panels top and
bottom (and then I have gkrellm off to the right). I did spend some time
fiddling with mod_dock but there's no documentation for that either. I
think I did manage to get it to swallow a panel once but it then
expanded to fill 2/3 of the screen...

[...]
> For a tiling workspace, i think it makes sense to ignore this request. For a
> floating one, it'd make sense to honour it indeed. Could you submit a feature
> request for this?

Where's good? (I'm also wondering whether the defwinprop stuff is
flexible enough to support this without needing any core changes.)

Also: nautilus tried to claim the root window and I ended up with a
gigantic floating window. A floating workspace is about the only time
when a root window is relevant in Notion, so I'm not surprised it's not
supported. Would this be easy to change?

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ───── http://www.cowlark.com ─────
│ "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
│ telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out
│ how to use my telephone." --- Bjarne Stroustrup

Re: [Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 01:14:49PM +0100, David Given wrote:
> I would like to use Notion with Gnome. (Don't laugh, okay?) (And right
> now this is all in floating mode.) 

How do you create a floating workspace? This appears to have become an
undocumented feature. I think we should document it :).

> Currently, it *works*, but Notion doesn't appear to understand panels, and 
> they're appearing as ordinary windows.

I'm using gnome-panel, too (just 1 though).

> Is there any way to persuade notion to handle docked windows in a more,
> ah, traditional way? While I can force them into frames manually, it'd
> be very much easier (and more user friendly) to have it all Just Work,
> and then have notion manage the space between the panels. I have tried
> mod_dock, but it doesn't appear to do what I want.

For me, in a normal tiled workspace, loading mod_dock causes gnome-panel
to open as a proper 'panel' instead of as a normal window.

I did have to set the dock mode to 'embedded' to prevent the panel from
overlapping normal frames. Also, I have to load mod_dock after mod_xinerama.

I'm not sure how this works in floating workspaces.

(gkrellm in mode also 'kinda sorta' works, but not really usably imho)

> I've observed this with both Gnome panels and gkrellm in docked mode.
> (Incidentally, notion is also not honouring gkrellm's request for no
> window manager decoration.)

For a tiling workspace, i think it makes sense to ignore this request. For a
floating one, it'd make sense to honour it indeed. Could you submit a feature
request for this?


Kind regards,

Arnout

[Notion-general] Panels with notion?

[David G. <dg...@co...>]

I would like to use Notion with Gnome. (Don't laugh, okay?) (And right
now this is all in floating mode.) Currently, it *works*, but Notion
doesn't appear to understand panels, and they're appearing as ordinary
windows.

Is there any way to persuade notion to handle docked windows in a more,
ah, traditional way? While I can force them into frames manually, it'd
be very much easier (and more user friendly) to have it all Just Work,
and then have notion manage the space between the panels. I have tried
mod_dock, but it doesn't appear to do what I want.

I've observed this with both Gnome panels and gkrellm in docked mode.
(Incidentally, notion is also not honouring gkrellm's request for no
window manager decoration.)

-- 
┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ───── http://www.cowlark.com ─────
│ "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
│ telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out
│ how to use my telephone." --- Bjarne Stroustrup

[Notion-general] Probably release?

[Krutov M. <neko@>]

Hello list!
Whats about making a release of notion window manager?

Re: [Notion-general] floating pop-up

[Juri H. <ju...@fa...>]

On 10/06/11 at 03:26pm, Wojtek Aniszewski wrote:
> Hi.
> Sorry if this has been mentioned before. So, point is: is there a way
> to make new (popping up) window float by default?
> I mean even on a tiled workspace. Such as, for example, I'm opening
> four consoles on a tiled workspace, run $mplayer foo.avi in one of
> them , and I like the new mplayer window to float, not to be trapped
> in the tiling.
> (I think that awesome has something like this by default.)
> I'm not making a feature request out of it, just ask if this can be
> done, e.g. by tweaking cfg_ioncore.
> 
> regards
> wojtek

Hi there.
How should notion know whether the window is a "pop-up" or not and how
do you define a "pop-up"? If mplayer is started, it's an X client on
its own for me. Of course, you could make a defwinprop for all classes
to be opened in floating mode [are wildcards allowed in defwinprops?]
Then, if you need, you could still tag them and attach them manually to
the tiled workspace frames with meta-T/meta-k-A combination. But that
does not make much sense while using a tiling wm, imho.

If you need such a floating behaviour just for some few
applications of your choice, you could define a defwinprop for each
such application. For example for mplayer that would be an entry:

defwinprop{
    class = "MPlayer",
    float = true
}

in a dopathed file like cfg_kludges.lua.

For creating proper winprops you can get the needed client info via
meta-m context menu "window-info" entry.

Even if an application has started tiled, you can always detach it
via meta-k-d, meta-m context menu "de-reattach" or right-click the window
title "de/reattach".

Hope that helps.



> 
> -- 
> Pentahedron - A polyhedron having five faces. Because there are two
> pentahedral graphs, there are two convex pentahedra, namely the square
> pyramid and the triangular prism. The triangular prism is the unique
> convex pentahedra having unit edge lengths.
> 
> (Eric W. Weisstein. "Pentahedron." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web
> Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Pentahedron.html)
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a
> definitive record of customers, application performance, security
> threats, fraudulent activity and more. Splunk takes this data and makes
> sense of it. Business sense. IT sense. Common sense.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-d2dcopy1
> _______________________________________________
> Notion-general mailing list
> Not...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/notion-general

-- 
Juri Hamburg
GnuPG Key-ID: 0x67206E72

[Notion-general] floating pop-up

[Wojtek A. <pen...@gm...>]

Hi.
Sorry if this has been mentioned before. So, point is: is there a way
to make new (popping up) window float by default?
I mean even on a tiled workspace. Such as, for example, I'm opening
four consoles on a tiled workspace, run $mplayer foo.avi in one of
them , and I like the new mplayer window to float, not to be trapped
in the tiling.
(I think that awesome has something like this by default.)
I'm not making a feature request out of it, just ask if this can be
done, e.g. by tweaking cfg_ioncore.

regards
wojtek

-- 
Pentahedron - A polyhedron having five faces. Because there are two
pentahedral graphs, there are two convex pentahedra, namely the square
pyramid and the triangular prism. The triangular prism is the unique
convex pentahedra having unit edge lengths.

(Eric W. Weisstein. "Pentahedron." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web
Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Pentahedron.html)

Re: [Notion-general] Fwd: the path notion searches for "run:", debian menu

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 08:08:06AM +0200, Wojtek Aniszewski wrote:
> Arnout Engelen <no...@bz...>
> > This script actually does look at the $PATH. However, this is probably the
> > active $PATH at the time notion is started - which is likely not from bash,
> > so indeed your .bashrc is probably not processed yet.
> 
> Yes, I have already sort of tackled this by using advice from Patrick
> Bachmann (pat...@rw...)

Great

> On the other hand, it would seem reasonable for Notion to look at
> user's .bashrc, don't you agree?

No - i think the only program that should look at ~/.bashrc should be bash :).

I wonder if there'd be an elegant way to leave the completion up to bash, we 
want to replace the current logic anyway (due to old licensing issues).

> > I also prefer the old-style menu. Perhaps we should consider making that the
> > default again?
>
> Way to go, if two people like it, it's almost a global tendention:)

I was hoping to provoke some more reactions ;).

> Well, it's a matter of uncommenting two lines in cfg_notion.lua, so
> not a problem if/when one knows where to look.

True, but I want us to deliver a default configuration that is as complete and
newbie-friendly as possible. A menu seems more newbie-friendly ;). Indeed users
who want the other behavior can get it quite easily.

> > Notion configuration is backwards-compatible with ion3 configuration, so you
> > could probably get the debian-menu-i18n.lua from ion3 and use it in Notion.
> >
> > Can you test that? We should consider shipping it with Notion.
>
> Thanks. well, as a matter of fact, my answer may suprise you: I know
> it can be done but I can not test that:) More specifically: "I know it
> can be done" - since I've done this exact thing in ubuntu, when I
> first switched to Notion out of curiosity (and found no differencies
> between it and ion3). 

Indeed notion is mostly ion3 with some bugfixes at this point.

> So I know the files can be copied and it works.
> But "I can not test that", because ion3 does not ship in debian, at
> least not it wheezy/testing which I'm using.
> The email of Patrick Bachmann (cited below for the convenience of the
> list readers) mentions this matter. However, Patrick's advice requires
> some work which I yet have to perform, so it's not tested yet.
> 
> Regards
> Wojtek
> 
> Patrick-Bachmann-writes:------------------
> Hello Wojtek,
> 
> I'm not subscribed to the list and mailing you directly. Feel free
> to share the content of this mail with the list.

Hello Patrick,

Thanks for responding. I can probably whitelist your email address so you can
reply to the list without being subscribed. I think you can just send to the
list and I'll be able to fix this through the mailman interface.

> There is no debian-menu.lua file distributed with Debian.
> It is generated on-the-fly by software from the package 'menu'.
> Following this link should tell you, I suppose, how to let menu
> know that ion is there and the syntax for the menu-file to be
> generated:
> 
> http://patch-tracker.debian.org/package/ion3
> 
> especially look at this large patch:
> 
> http://patch-tracker.debian.org/patch/debianonly/view/ion3/20080825-1

Interesting. We should definitely see if/how we can package this with notion,
or find another way to query the Debian menu. The freedesktop.org menu and the
Debian menu are still not kept in sync, are they?


Kind regards,

Arnout

[Notion-general] Fwd: the path notion searches for "run:", debian menu

[Wojtek A. <pen...@gm...>]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Wojtek Aniszewski <pen...@gm...>
Date: 2011/8/31
Subject: Re: [Notion-general] the path notion searches for "run:", debian menu
To: Arnout Engelen <no...@bz...>


>
> This script actually does look at the $PATH. However, this is probably the
> active $PATH at the time notion is started - which is likely not from bash,
> so indeed your .bashrc is probably not processed yet.
>
> So you want to set your $PATH before the window manager is started. This is
> unfortunately a bit messy. As far as I know most Display Managers (like GDM)
> will process your ~/.profile , so you'll want to put your code extending the
> $PATH in your ~/.profile. Bash, however, only reads your ~/.profile when there
> is no ~/.bash_profile or ~/.bash_login - so you'll either have to remove your
> ~/.bash_profile and ~/.bash_login, or add '. ~/.profile' to ~/.bash_profile.
>
> We need a user manual where we document stuff like this. I guess the wiki
> would be the proper place?

Yes, I have already sort of tackled this by using advice from Patrick
Bachmann (pat...@rw...), from whom I've received a
reply, although he's not on the list. Therefore I attach his message
below. Patrick suggested my .xinitrc may be read (apparently, it's
not), or that I modify global (system-wide) path. It's not a
particularly elegant solution, but that's what I did.
I agree that changing .profile should be a better solution and I will test it.
On the other hand, it would seem reasonable for Notion to look at
user's .bashrc, don't you agree?


> I also prefer the old-style menu. Perhaps we should consider making that the
> default again?
>
Way to go, if two people like it, it's almost a global tendention:)
Well, it's a matter of uncommenting two lines in cfg_notion.lua, so
not a problem if/when one knows where to look.

>
> Notion configuration is backwards-compatible with ion3 configuration, so you
> could probably get the debian-menu-i18n.lua from ion3 and use it in Notion.
>
> Can you test that? We should consider shipping it with Notion.
>
>
> Arnout
>
Thanks. well, as a matter of fact, my answer may suprise you: I know
it can be done but I can not test that:) More specifically: "I know it
can be done" - since I've done this exact thing in ubuntu, when I
first switched to Notion out of curiosity (and found no differencies
between it and ion3). So I know the files can be copied and it works.
But "I can not test that", because ion3 does not ship in debian, at
least not it wheezy/testing which I'm using.
The email of Patrick Bachmann (cited below for the convenience of the
list readers) mentions this matter. However, Patrick's advice requires
some work which I yet have to perform, so it's not tested yet.

Regards
Wojtek

Patrick-Bachmann-writes:------------------
Hello Wojtek,

I'm not subscribed to the list and mailing you directly. Feel free
to share the content of this mail with the list.

Regarding issue two:

There is no debian-menu.lua file distributed with Debian.
It is generated on-the-fly by software from the package 'menu'.
Following this link should tell you, I suppose, how to let menu
know that ion is there and the syntax for the menu-file to be
generated:

http://patch-tracker.debian.org/package/ion3

especially look at this large patch:

http://patch-tracker.debian.org/patch/debianonly/view/ion3/20080825-1

Regarding issue one:
I suppose that it is taken from your .xinitrc or the global one.

Greetings,

Patrick
------------------------------------------



--
Pentahedron - A polyhedron having five faces. Because there are two
pentahedral graphs, there are two convex pentahedra, namely the square
pyramid and the triangular prism. The triangular prism is the unique
convex pentahedra having unit edge lengths.

(Eric W. Weisstein. "Pentahedron." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web
Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Pentahedron.html)



-- 
Pentahedron - A polyhedron having five faces. Because there are two
pentahedral graphs, there are two convex pentahedra, namely the square
pyramid and the triangular prism. The triangular prism is the unique
convex pentahedra having unit edge lengths.

(Eric W. Weisstein. "Pentahedron." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web
Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Pentahedron.html)

Re: [Notion-general] the path notion searches for "run:", debian menu

[Arnout E. <no...@bz...>]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 12:23:01PM +0200, Wojtek Aniszewski wrote:
> I've been using ion3 for at least 2 years on Ubuntu. Having changed
> Ubuntu do Debian lately, the change of ion3 to NotIon followed
> naturally.

Welcome!

> Now the problem is, I have had few things fixed up in old ion3
> system-wide configs and they were removed with the old system.
> 1. What is the actual path notion searches when I hit F3 and type a
> command? I'm pretty sure it is not the $PATH set in .bashrc, as I have
> things there (such as a script-containing dir) that are not found by
> notion in "Run:" prompt.

This script actually does look at the $PATH. However, this is probably the
active $PATH at the time notion is started - which is likely not from bash,
so indeed your .bashrc is probably not processed yet.

So you want to set your $PATH before the window manager is started. This is
unfortunately a bit messy. As far as I know most Display Managers (like GDM)
will process your ~/.profile , so you'll want to put your code extending the
$PATH in your ~/.profile. Bash, however, only reads your ~/.profile when there
is no ~/.bash_profile or ~/.bash_login - so you'll either have to remove your 
~/.bash_profile and ~/.bash_login, or add '. ~/.profile' to ~/.bash_profile.

We need a user manual where we document stuff like this. I guess the wiki 
would be the proper place?

> 2. The debian menu issue. In cfg_ioncore.lua (which I inherited from
> ion3 and keep using along with rest of my configs)  I had these
> directives:
> 
> dopath("debian-menu-i18n")
> dopath("debian-menu")
> 
> which, as I understood "had something to do" with debian app menu
> available when pressing F12. (I have old-style fold out-menu, not
> queries). 

I also prefer the old-style menu. Perhaps we should consider making that the
default again?

> Now, as some of you may alreasy be guessing, Notion screams
> at startup:
> 
> Notion startup error log:
> >> Unable to find 'debian-menu-i18n' on search path.
> >> Unable to find 'debian-menu' on search path.
> 
> This error was remedied in goodold ion3 by creating symbolic links
> within ion3 /etc/X11/ion3 directory like:
> debian-menu-i18n.lua -> /var/lib/ion3/debian-menu-i18n.lua
> 
> Needless to say I can't do it without even having ion3:), nor the
> files debian-menu-i18n.lue etc. which are NOT shipped with notion. So
> what to do?

Notion configuration is backwards-compatible with ion3 configuration, so you
could probably get the debian-menu-i18n.lua from ion3 and use it in Notion.

Can you test that? We should consider shipping it with Notion.


Arnout

[Notion-general] the path notion searches for "run:", debian menu

[Wojtek A. <pen...@gm...>]

Hi all.
I've been using ion3 for at least 2 years on Ubuntu. Having changed
Ubuntu do Debian lately, the change of ion3 to NotIon followed
naturally.
Now the problem is, I have had few things fixed up in old ion3
system-wide configs and they were removed with the old system.
1. What is the actual path notion searches when I hit F3 and type a
command? I'm pretty sure it is not the $PATH set in .bashrc, as I have
things there (such as a script-containing dir) that are not found by
notion in "Run:" prompt.
2. The debian menu issue. In cfg_ioncore.lua (which I inherited from
ion3 and keep using along with rest of my configs)  I had these
directives:

dopath("debian-menu-i18n")
dopath("debian-menu")

which, as I understood "had something to do" with debian app menu
available when pressing F12. (I have old-style fold out-menu, not
queries). Now, as some of you may alreasy be guessing, Notion screams
at startup:

Notion startup error log:
>> Unable to find 'debian-menu-i18n' on search path.
>> Unable to find 'debian-menu-i18n' on search path.

This error was remedied in goodold ion3 by creating symbolic links
within ion3 /etc/X11/ion3 directory like:
debian-menu-i18n.lua -> /var/lib/ion3/debian-menu-i18n.lua

Needless to say I can't do it without even having ion3:), nor the
files debian-menu-i18n.lue etc. which are NOT shipped with notion. So
what to do?

Regards
Wojtek

-- 
Pentahedron - A polyhedron having five faces. Because there are two
pentahedral graphs, there are two convex pentahedra, namely the square
pyramid and the triangular prism. The triangular prism is the unique
convex pentahedra having unit edge lengths.

(Eric W. Weisstein. "Pentahedron." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web
Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Pentahedron.html)

Re: [Notion-general] mod_xinerama

[Michael K. <mic...@rw...>]

> BTW, notion can handle different display heights with mod_xrandr and
> proper randr support. ;)

But the drives sadly has not. Is there a way to create 2 fixed sized
workspaces on startup? These should not be moveable and one should not
be only 98% of the display height. (And they should conain tiling/tabbed
workspaces) Is this possible?

> Not sure how you've tried mod_xinerama, but it was not ment to be used
> as substitution of xpra/xmove while using two seperate X servers.
No, I tryed to use xpra as a substituion for xinerama.


> Before I switched to notion I had used dual head setup with proprietary
> nvidia driver with TwinView enabled and mod_xinerama on _ion_. Maybe
> mod_xinerama became just incompatible to notion? 

Seems more a problem with the X11 server for me, not a notion  <=>
mod_xinerama issue.

Michael Kockmeyer

Re: [Notion-general] mod_xinerama

[Juri H. <ju...@fa...>]

not...@li...
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Subject: Re: [Notion-general] mod_xinerama
Reply-To: 
In-Reply-To: <1309353207.6104.42.camel@mchl.local>

On 06/29/11 at 03:13pm, Michael Kockmeyer wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, den 29.06.2011, 13:46 +0200 schrieb Juri Hamburg:
> > On 06/29/11 at 12:44pm, Michael Kockmeyer wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I want to use notion in my multihead-setup but it does not what it is
> > > supposed to do. If I deactive xinerama it behaves as expected with one
> > > workspace for each screen. But I want to move windows from one screen to
> > > another so I installed mod_xinerama (and activated xinerama of course),
> > > but in fact it does nothing. It behaves just as is was not installed.
> > > (or at least I cannot notice any difference), but it is for sure since I
> > > get an error if I deativate it in the x-server. There is a area i cannot
> > > access in the left monitor (since it's 26 pixels smaller) and also I
> > > like the "fixed" as if the 2 monitors where 2 X-Screens.
> > > Any clues/fixes, or have i missunderstood the usage of mod_xinerama?
> > > 
> > > Michael Kockmeyer
> > 
> > Do you start just _one_ X server and notion handles the two screens
> > without mod_xrandr nor mod_xinerama loaded as two seperate workspaces?
> > That's something new to me. 
> Yep, works quite nice. Now i have uninstalled mod_xinerama and it's nearly what i want.
> 
> 
> > AFAIK, usage mod_xrandr is encouraged for static or dynamic multihead
> > setups. However you need a graphics card driver which has randr support.
> > I had no luck creating two seperate workspaces on two monitors with
> > proprietary nvidia driver, since it doesn't fully support randr.  I also
> > had no luck to make notion handle each monitor as a workspace with prop.
> > nvidia driver's twinview and mod_xinerama activated.
> I use (and want to keep on using) the proprietary nvidia driver, so i
> gave up on trying.
> 
> 
> > mod_xrandr works for me with nouveau driver on an nvidia machine and on
> > my mobile intel graphic chip (with dragging xclients from screen to
> > screen).  However, dragging with mouse will work only from tiled
> > workspace to any, but not the other way, from a floating workspace to
> > another (IIRC, there's an issue reported on notion issue tracker. But
> > you still can use tag/attach way to move frames between any workspaces.
> I want to move windows between my two monitors. Since the driver has
> problems with randr and xinerama and notion cannot deal with different
> display hights i want to move beween different x-screens, but without
> xpra/xmove (looks like a very ugly hack to me, never worked for me).
> Is there a more elegant soultion? Tag and attach does not work.

Moving X clients from X server to another won't work using plain notion.
I guess you'd have to stick with the hack solutions like xpra/xmove.
BTW, notion can handle different display heights with mod_xrandr and
proper randr support. ;)

Not sure how you've tried mod_xinerama, but it was not ment to be used
as substitution of xpra/xmove while using two seperate X servers.

Before I switched to notion I had used dual head setup with proprietary
nvidia driver with TwinView enabled and mod_xinerama on _ion_. Maybe
mod_xinerama became just incompatible to notion? 

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael Kockmeyer
Good Luck! 
-- 
Juri Hamburg
GnuPG Key-ID: 0x67206E72