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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-05-10 15:42:51
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hi guys, How do you feel about SF lately, this year i got impression it is was more down then up and getting slower and slower. Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe? -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-05-10 15:46:50
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On 10.05.2006, at 17:43, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > > How do you feel about SF lately, this year i got impression it is > was more down then up and getting slower and slower. > > Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe? Where is that? Does it also offer comparable services for free? Zoran |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-05-10 15:51:42
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Oh, i do not know, i am asking in general, hosting can be found or i can offer one of my servers that is in the data center. Zoran Vasiljevic wrote: > > On 10.05.2006, at 17:43, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > >> >> How do you feel about SF lately, this year i got impression it is was >> more down then up and getting slower and slower. >> >> Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe? > > Where is that? Does it also offer comparable services for free? > Zoran > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-05-10 15:57:39
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On 10.05.2006, at 17:52, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > Oh, i do not know, i am asking in general, hosting can be found or > i can offer one of my servers that is in the data center. The repository alone is not the only issue, althogh this can be pretty ugly when you cannot checkout because SF is down. OTOH, the services offered by SF are very valuable and my tolerance limit in that respect is pretty high. Eventually they (SF) will get it under control... Cheers Zoran |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-05-10 17:17:25
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I agree, it is more than just CVS, but it looks like my tolerance level is much lower than yours:-))) Zoran Vasiljevic wrote: > > On 10.05.2006, at 17:52, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > >> Oh, i do not know, i am asking in general, hosting can be found or i >> can offer one of my servers that is in the data center. > > The repository alone is not the only issue, althogh this can be > pretty ugly when you cannot checkout because SF is down. > OTOH, the services offered by SF are very valuable and my tolerance > limit in that respect is pretty high. Eventually they (SF) will > get it under control... > > Cheers > Zoran > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Bernd E. <b.e...@ki...> - 2006-05-11 05:48:20
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Hi Vlad, > > Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe? with subversion, do you think of just changing from CVS to the revision control system "subversion" or to another server with CVS/subversion? Looks like the subversion RCS had less outages on SF than CVS, but this might just be because of less users using subversion on SF. We switched to subversion internally when it reached version 1.0 and never regret it. Moving repository files to a subversion repository is relatively easy with not too complicated repositories, but to be honest: never change a running system. We have still a lot of CVS repositories we will not touch. Bernd. |
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From: Andrew P. <at...@pi...> - 2006-05-11 09:16:36
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On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 07:48:37AM +0200, Bernd Eidenschink wrote: > > > Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe? > > with subversion, do you think of just changing from CVS to the revision > control system "subversion" or to another server with CVS/subversion? > > Looks like the subversion RCS had less outages on SF than CVS, but this might > just be because of less users using subversion on SF. Switching from CVS to Subversion solely because, at the moment, SourceForge seems to have better uptime on their Subversion than their CVS servers makes no sense at all. For those interested in such things, I recommend checking the Tcl Core list, they are currently discussing exactly these SourceForge issues, planning their "escape plan" from SourceForge in case that should become necessary, whether they should switch from CVS and if so to what, etc. I agree entirely with what D. Richard Hipp said here: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/tcl-core/3124041 However, Naviserver has a MUCH smaller project team than Tcl, therefore Naviserver should be much more reluctant to move from a free hosted service like SourceForge onto self-maintained servers. In fact, I would not recommend self-hosting for Naviserver AT ALL (except for backup). But if there are some other SourceForge-like services, that would be worth looking into, at least as a fallback in case SF's service gets worse rather than better. Surely there are many, many other folks in the same boat though, I wonder what they think? -- Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...> http://www.piskorski.com/ |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-05-11 13:46:15
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What is the reason for NOT SELF-HOSTING Naviserver repository? Working with multiple hosting providers i can tell from my experience that their solutions are not better or more reliable than well-thought server setup that is installed in any datacenter. As SF shows, disk failure can bring down the whole system with days of repair time. And this is not the first time, looks like their disaster plans are not well prepared. As for SVN, we switched our production system about year ago, without any problems and working with SVN is much better experience, in my opinion the switch is worth it. Client-server model is fine here, especially for small teams, if server is available from anywhere, i see no problem. Andrew Piskorski wrote: > On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 07:48:37AM +0200, Bernd Eidenschink wrote: > >>>> Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe? >> with subversion, do you think of just changing from CVS to the revision >> control system "subversion" or to another server with CVS/subversion? >> >> Looks like the subversion RCS had less outages on SF than CVS, but this might >> just be because of less users using subversion on SF. > > Switching from CVS to Subversion solely because, at the moment, > SourceForge seems to have better uptime on their Subversion than their > CVS servers makes no sense at all. > > For those interested in such things, I recommend checking the Tcl Core > list, they are currently discussing exactly these SourceForge issues, > planning their "escape plan" from SourceForge in case that should > become necessary, whether they should switch from CVS and if so to > what, etc. I agree entirely with what D. Richard Hipp said here: > > http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/tcl-core/3124041 > > However, Naviserver has a MUCH smaller project team than Tcl, > therefore Naviserver should be much more reluctant to move from a free > hosted service like SourceForge onto self-maintained servers. In > fact, I would not recommend self-hosting for Naviserver AT ALL (except > for backup). > > But if there are some other SourceForge-like services, that would be > worth looking into, at least as a fallback in case SF's service gets > worse rather than better. Surely there are many, many other folks in > the same boat though, I wonder what they think? > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Andrew P. <at...@pi...> - 2006-05-11 15:14:47
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On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 09:47:11AM -0400, Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> What is the reason for NOT SELF-HOSTING Naviserver repository?
It's not obvious? One, OVERHEAD. Two, people lose interest, go away,
or just lack time. If those people happen to be the one's providing
or maintaining the servers, Bad Things can happen. It's better to
avoid those risks if you can.
Public systems like SourceForge have several important advantages:
You don't have to DO anything to keep it running, that's someone
else's job. It is neutral ground, equally usable by and accessible to
EVERYONE in the open source world. It also serves as a way to FIND
projects, interact with multiple projects in a consistent way. Etc.
> any problems and working with SVN is much better experience, in my
> opinion the switch is worth it. Client-server model is fine here,
> especially for small teams, if server is available from anywhere, i see
> no problem.
CVS's centralized model is also fine, in the exact same way that
Subversion's is. That doesn't mean it's a particularly good choice.
My gut feel (which could, of course, be wrong): If you're going to go
to the trouble to convert from CVS, change to something dramatically
better - one of the new-fangled distributed version control systems -
not to something merely slightly better.
In case it's useful, here's a list I wrote up a while back, it gives
the names of various version control Ubuntu packages, all easily
installable with apt-get. I planned to experiment with each of these,
but haven't gotten around to it yet:
tailor xxdiff meld mercurial monotone
darcs darcs-load-dirs darcs-buildpackage
subversion subversion-tools svn-buildpackage
bzr bazaar arch-buildpackage
tla tla-doc tla-load-dirs tla-tools tla-buildpackage
Here's a bit of background on each of those, basically just from me
reading some docs:
- tailor: Converts to/from CVS and lots of other version control
archive formats.
- xxdiff, meld: General purpose multi-way diff and merge tools,
supposedly good.
- mercurial ("hg"): Various Linux kernel projects (Xen, etc.) use it,
it's supposedly very fast. Chuck Blake likes it, says he switched
to it from Darcs because it is easier for him to hack on (something
about Mercurial being many fewer lines of Python than Darcs is of
Haskell).
- darcs: Supposed to be very easy to use, but kind of slow. "Patch
theory" to automatically determine dependence/independence of
patches. Written in Haskell.
- monotone: Not much info on this one but from comments it might be
good. Uses 3-way merge and SQLite. D. Richard Hipp (author of
SQLite), who seems picky, likes it the best so far.
- bazaar ("baz"): Ubuntu's fork of Arch/tla, presumably in heavy use
for all Ubuntu packages. Supposedly somewhat cleaned up command set
compared to tla, but it's still Arch. Same wire format as tla so
they can inter-operate.
- bzr: The next-generation Bazaar for Ubuntu, re-implemented in Python
rather than C. I don't think Ubuntu has switched yet from baz to
bzr but I'm not sure.
- tla ("Tom Lord's Arch"): The standard Gnu Arch implementation in
C. Reputation for being unnecessarily complicated to use, although
people like it anyway. (If you have baz installed, do you need tla
for any reason? Dunno.)
- subversion ("svn"): Centralized version control system (all the ones
above are distributed), intended to be like CVS but with fewer
flaws. R uses it.
I don't find Subversion very interesting, as from reports they've
created a great big codebase in order to obtain a rather modest
improvement in functionality over CVS. The distributed tools seem to
have much more potential. But, Subversion was ready earliest, and
various open source projects have adopted it, so you clearly want the
svn client available.
There is also "svk", which is a distributed VCS implemented in Perl on
top of Subversion. I know little about it, but the idea sounds kludgy
to me.
--
Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...>
http://www.piskorski.com/
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From: Bernd E. <eid...@we...> - 2006-05-11 16:44:58
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> It's not obvious? One, OVERHEAD. Two, people lose interest, go away, > or just lack time. If those people happen to be the one's providing > or maintaining the servers, Bad Things can happen. It's better to > avoid those risks if you can. we had a similar talk when the naviserver fork was discussed, concerning the website. the final decision was to use SF and a wiki, which seems a good solution (also I don't admire the performance sometims, but that's another and unimportant flamewar topic :*) If I would use it on a daily basis, maybe I would ask the same question like Vlad...). > My gut feel (which could, of course, be wrong): If you're going to go > to the trouble to convert from CVS, change to something dramatically > better - one of the new-fangled distributed version control systems - > not to something merely slightly better. but in this special context, is this possible at all? does SF offer anything else than CVS and Subversion? If not than I interpret your listing of alternativ RCSystems as a vote for leaving SF :-)) and we don't work on the linux kernel, like linus :-) > I don't find Subversion very interesting, as from reports they've > created a great big codebase in order to obtain a rather modest > improvement in functionality over CVS. The distributed tools seem to > have much more potential. But, Subversion was ready earliest, and > various open source projects have adopted it, so you clearly want the > svn client available. if you ask me whether to use CVS or SVN i don't have to think a second: SVN. it's for people that know CVS, are happy with most of the underlying model, but not with its flaws. SVN was developed from scratch, the repository is based on Berkeley DB, you don't need repository access for diffs etc., a new revision number for the whole project after every commit, version control for directories (copy, move, add, delete, mkdir), transactions with rollbacks, more protocols to access repositories (svn, svn+ssh, file, http [apache2+webdav], https), cheap copy when creating branches and tags (a tag is simply a "copy" of e.g. a directory hierarchy using almost no space until you branch), nice handling of binary files (everything is "binary" and you can set/change mimetypes), explicit setting of keywords you want to use (like "Id"). for fun, just try "cvs2svn". or take a look here: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/10/03/cvs-to-subversion-with-cvs2svn.html Bernd. |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-05-11 17:00:32
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> It's not obvious? One, OVERHEAD. Two, people lose interest, go away, > or just lack time. If those people happen to be the one's providing > or maintaining the servers, Bad Things can happen. It's better to > avoid those risks if you can. Yes, this is true, but being public, everybody can copy the whole tree and install it on another server with no troubles, it is not proprietary database or closed system nobody else have. What it gives though, more control, full access to the system, server, running demo, customized website and etc. As for keeping it running, maintaining open-source project is already overhead, 10-30 minutes do not make any difference. I am not convincing for the switch but i personally do not like SF for being slow, not running the tools i need (naviserver for example, svn up until now) and bloated user interface, it is universal but it has too many ads and other not useful(for me) information, so i started slowly loosing my patience for SF a long time now. But i would prefer naviserver be hosted on some third party system with full access and be able to run it as web server. We do not need a lot of things: simple web pages, tracker/forum, mailing list, wiki. -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-05-11 18:50:41
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On 11.05.2006, at 19:01, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > But i would prefer naviserver be hosted on some third party system > with full access and be able to run it as web server. We do not > need a lot of things: simple web pages, tracker/forum, mailing > list, wiki. > Vlad, WHO is going to maintain that? I'm not. I'd rather invest my time (or whatever I get free from daily business) to work on the server code instead of maintainig the website, mail-lists, RFEs bug-trackers etc pp. I'm perhaps too paranoid, but at the moment, except for the latest CVS downtime, I had no problems with SF whatsoever. I believe the Tcl project is also there for some 5-6 years and since I'm working there there were absolutely no problems with SF at all. I'm just afraid that our precious time goes in re-inveting the wheel. Cheers, Zoran |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-05-11 19:01:50
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I am not pushing, just expressed my frustration: in Feb more than a week, now almost a week. Let's see if this issue will popup again in couple of months. Zoran Vasiljevic wrote: > > On 11.05.2006, at 19:01, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > >> But i would prefer naviserver be hosted on some third party system >> with full access and be able to run it as web server. We do not need a >> lot of things: simple web pages, tracker/forum, mailing list, wiki. >> > > Vlad, WHO is going to maintain that? I'm not. I'd rather invest my time > (or whatever I get free from daily business) to work on the server code > instead of maintainig the website, mail-lists, RFEs bug-trackers etc pp. > > I'm perhaps too paranoid, but at the moment, except for the latest > CVS downtime, I had no problems with SF whatsoever. I believe the Tcl > project is also there for some 5-6 years and since I'm working there > there were absolutely no problems with SF at all. > > I'm just afraid that our precious time goes in re-inveting the wheel. > > Cheers, > Zoran > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-05-11 15:29:47
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On 11.05.2006, at 17:14, Andrew Piskorski wrote: > > In case it's useful, here's a list I wrote up a while back, it gives > the names of various version control Ubuntu packages, all easily > installable with apt-get. I planned to experiment with each of these, > but haven't gotten around to it yet: I'm impressed! I didn't have a slightest idea that there are so many of them! Personally, I got used to CVS. I'm not a fan of it, but it does its job as I expect. We use it also internally for some 10 years to maintain our internal code base. I would really wait for SF to catch up and then judge. Cheers Zoran |
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From: Stephen D. <sd...@gm...> - 2006-05-11 15:47:29
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On 5/11/06, Zoran Vasiljevic <zv...@ar...> wrote: > > On 11.05.2006, at 17:14, Andrew Piskorski wrote: > > > > > In case it's useful, here's a list I wrote up a while back, it gives > > the names of various version control Ubuntu packages, all easily > > installable with apt-get. I planned to experiment with each of these, > > but haven't gotten around to it yet: > > I'm impressed! I didn't have a slightest idea that there are > so many of them! > > Personally, I got used to CVS. I'm not a fan of it, but it does > its job as I expect. We use it also internally for some 10 years > to maintain our internal code base. > I've been using mercurial for a while now in conjunction with cvs. I pull down a working copy using cvs then manage it using mercurial. When I want to work on a patch, I can hg clone in/navaiserver my-naviserver then work on my-naviserver. I can 'hg diff' even though I'm offline. I can commit localy if it's a large change, back things out, branch etc. If it's taking me a long time and cvs has been updated, I go back to my original cvs checkout and 'cvs up'. Then I hg addremove hg commit -m cvsup to get those new changes into mercurial. I can then go to any of the mercurial clones and do a hg pull and all the latest changes are merged in. To commit back to the main cvs repo, I just 'cvs commit' in the cloned mercurial repository then blow it away. Update the main checkout as above to get my new changes, then pull them into the other clones I have going. The advantage of this is being able to work offline, instant diffs against the main repo, uses very little disc space as all the clones are hard linked. Mercurial is simillar to Git which is used for the Linux kernel now. I believe the Xorg folks are moving to git. |
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