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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2008-05-09 15:05:39
|
There is nothing wrong with it, actually it could be valuable to Lua users. I think it might be same as with PHP module, it gives flexibility to use either scripting language or both for development. But Tcl still is the core language and server will always be linked to Tcl library. And we still have problem with Tcl initialization. Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > Hi there! > > There is this tiny sexy little thing on www.lua.org. > Did you guys have any close(r) encounters? > Should I invest some more time/effort in that direction? > Rationale is to have simpler and lower-weight script > machine than what we have now. Also, threadingwise they > claim to be able to make a shared/perthread state that > would simplify lots of things (no need to introspect/clone > interps and such). All resulting in a smaller footprint > and faster execution. > > I know we all use/love Tcl (we depend on it existentially) > but it mostly pays off being flexible and open minded. > I also know that we cannot refactor server to exclude Tcl > altogether (as we depend on the cross-platform API that > libtcl provides)... > Still... do not crucify me immediately and tag me as a > heretic! If anybody had any experience, being good or > bad I'd love to hear them. > > My first experience: download 5.1.3 Lua to my powerbook > in 3 seconds, compile in 5 and I'm up and running :-) > It is really lightweight! I yet have to see whhat is missing > and what needs to be done by ourselves (most probably IO > will be missing I guess; RE's as well). > > Zoran > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-09 14:01:58
|
On 09.05.2008, at 15:32, Andrew Piskorski wrote: > > Talk to Jean-Claude Wippler, he started using Lua for the core engine > of Vlerq earlier this year. (And of course he is already a Tcl > expert, not to mention other languages.) Yep! I know the guy. Good tip. I will contact him these days. > > > You might also want to check with Lua people to see what they're > currently doing for web and application servers. I wonder if/how they > leverage coroutines in interesting ways. Perhaps they'd be interested > in Naviserver with Lua, I don't know. Me neither. But what I would like to see is how they do concurrent programmig i.e. how they support multiple threads of execution. Tcl compartment model is fine for some case but it presents a real pain in the neck when you have a large initial state that needs to be replicated in each and every thread. This bugs us for years and I attempted to solve that, but w/o nice and generic solution. > > >> It is really lightweight! I yet have to see whhat is missing >> and what needs to be done by ourselves (most probably IO >> will be missing I guess; RE's as well). > > Lua reportedly has regular expression suppot, it's just not included > in core Lua, you have to load a third party extension module. That > should be just fine (even superior) as a design, but Lua seems to be > crying out for a real Batteries Included distribution, with good > standard libraries, etc. Unicode is also an issue... btw. I must go shopping arround for some days to get a clear picture. It is still relatively unclear to me except for the first couple of steps that were really promising. IMO, it pays of to look deeper. JCW is a good tip! I'll talk to the guy. Cheers Zoran |
From: Andrew P. <at...@pi...> - 2008-05-09 13:33:37
|
On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 03:05:56PM +0200, Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > There is this tiny sexy little thing on www.lua.org. > Did you guys have any close(r) encounters? > Should I invest some more time/effort in that direction? I don't know, but it would be interesting! Talk to Jean-Claude Wippler, he started using Lua for the core engine of Vlerq earlier this year. (And of course he is already a Tcl expert, not to mention other languages.) You might also want to check with Lua people to see what they're currently doing for web and application servers. I wonder if/how they leverage coroutines in interesting ways. Perhaps they'd be interested in Naviserver with Lua, I don't know. I've never used it for anything at all, but Lua is high on my list of Interesting Programming Languages. > It is really lightweight! I yet have to see whhat is missing > and what needs to be done by ourselves (most probably IO > will be missing I guess; RE's as well). Lua reportedly has regular expression suppot, it's just not included in core Lua, you have to load a third party extension module. That should be just fine (even superior) as a design, but Lua seems to be crying out for a real Batteries Included distribution, with good standard libraries, etc. -- Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...> http://www.piskorski.com/ |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-09 13:06:39
|
Hi there! There is this tiny sexy little thing on www.lua.org. Did you guys have any close(r) encounters? Should I invest some more time/effort in that direction? Rationale is to have simpler and lower-weight script machine than what we have now. Also, threadingwise they claim to be able to make a shared/perthread state that would simplify lots of things (no need to introspect/clone interps and such). All resulting in a smaller footprint and faster execution. I know we all use/love Tcl (we depend on it existentially) but it mostly pays off being flexible and open minded. I also know that we cannot refactor server to exclude Tcl altogether (as we depend on the cross-platform API that libtcl provides)... Still... do not crucify me immediately and tag me as a heretic! If anybody had any experience, being good or bad I'd love to hear them. My first experience: download 5.1.3 Lua to my powerbook in 3 seconds, compile in 5 and I'm up and running :-) It is really lightweight! I yet have to see whhat is missing and what needs to be done by ourselves (most probably IO will be missing I guess; RE's as well). Zoran |
From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2008-05-08 14:34:13
|
Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > On 07.05.2008, at 22:51, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > >> Adding Tcl to this just makes it much more flexible and powerful but >> making binary server as Tcl package and require it to run within Tcl i >> am not sure i like. > > Well, it is not or-or. It is both. I would not just ditch the > standalone version. Instead, I would create a separate wrapper > in parallel to ns_main that loads the thing as Tcl extension > and maniplates the config from the Tcl side (by means of new > per-virtual-server commands or such). Ok, i agree >> >> Making libnsd.so true Tcl package i would like to help though. > > Isn't that already done? > You can do "load lobnsd.so" in a Tcl shell even today. I know but i heard that it is not complete and some part does not work or something like that, i will not speculate on this... I guess if libnsd.so would be true complete Tcl package we would not be discussing this :-))) |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-08 12:10:35
|
On 06.05.2008, at 01:59, Stephen Deasey wrote: > freehg.org was just a convenient place to publish. I guess we would > put the repos on the sourceforge web space. Mercurial can run as a cgi > script front end to the repo for anonymous pulling and web browsing. > Commiters would push via ssh. This is all differential/integral computation for me. I would say: make whatever you think is OK and I wll just follow... Provided I can stick to my "commit/update" for the beginning, until I get comfortable with the brand new brave-21-century world... |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-08 06:55:04
|
On 07.05.2008, at 22:51, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > Adding Tcl to this just makes it much more flexible and powerful but > making binary server as Tcl package and require it to run within Tcl i > am not sure i like. Well, it is not or-or. It is both. I would not just ditch the standalone version. Instead, I would create a separate wrapper in parallel to ns_main that loads the thing as Tcl extension and maniplates the config from the Tcl side (by means of new per-virtual-server commands or such). > > > Making libnsd.so true Tcl package i would like to help though. Isn't that already done? You can do "load lobnsd.so" in a Tcl shell even today. Zoran |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-08 06:52:00
|
On 07.05.2008, at 23:00, Jeff Rogers wrote: > Andrew Piskorski wrote: >> On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 05:05:13PM +0200, Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: >> >>> Does anybody have any interest in making us being a >>> yet-another Tcl loadable extension? >> >> Yes. From his past comments on the AOLserver list, Jeff Hobbs would >> probably be interested too. > > Rather than the entire server being a loadable extension, what about > breaking out the major c-coded functional pieces into a group of > loadable extensions? The modules could include adp (a fast/extensible > template engine), urlspace (a trie oriented around urls), driver (a > threaded alternate to the standard tcl event loop, oriented around > creating events on one thread to be dispatched on others), and of > course, db for database access. Some other pieces of functionality, > like scheduled jobs ("after") , ns_sets (dicts?), nsv shared variables > (thread package tsvs), http, and sockets seem to be already > sufficiently > covered in the core or standard tcl library. Interesting idea. This would definitely add more tools to Tcl programmer. But I was not targeting this. I was targeting people that might needing a web-service in their programs. So w/o much fuss, load the extension and start using (web-server) immediately. Splitting the server in parts and then glueing all together would be considerable more effort then wrapping the server as-is in a Tcl extension. But, generally speaking, on the mid/long run we could consider taking the server piece-by-piece apart and making it more modular then it is now, this is true. Cheers Zoran |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-08 06:44:52
|
On 07.05.2008, at 23:17, Andrew Piskorski wrote: > AFAIK, it is impossible to run either AOLserver or Naviserver without > at least one Tcl interpreter loaded in there somewhere. It is also > impossible to compile it without linking against Tcl. > I think what Vlad wanted to say is that he needs no Tcl scripting taking place (all can be done in loaded C-modules). Of course, the server is heavily dependent on Tcl library but not directly on executing Tcl scripts. Cheers Zoran |
From: Andrew P. <at...@pi...> - 2008-05-07 21:17:25
|
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 04:51:27PM -0400, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > On other hand, as a server with binary modules i can use it completely > without Tcl or Web/ADP stuff. AFAIK, it is impossible to run either AOLserver or Naviserver without at least one Tcl interpreter loaded in there somewhere. It is also impossible to compile it without linking against Tcl. -- Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...> http://www.piskorski.com/ |
From: Jeff R. <dv...@di...> - 2008-05-07 21:00:59
|
Andrew Piskorski wrote: > On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 05:05:13PM +0200, Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > >> Does anybody have any interest in making us being a >> yet-another Tcl loadable extension? > > Yes. From his past comments on the AOLserver list, Jeff Hobbs would > probably be interested too. Rather than the entire server being a loadable extension, what about breaking out the major c-coded functional pieces into a group of loadable extensions? The modules could include adp (a fast/extensible template engine), urlspace (a trie oriented around urls), driver (a threaded alternate to the standard tcl event loop, oriented around creating events on one thread to be dispatched on others), and of course, db for database access. Some other pieces of functionality, like scheduled jobs ("after") , ns_sets (dicts?), nsv shared variables (thread package tsvs), http, and sockets seem to be already sufficiently covered in the core or standard tcl library. -J |
From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2008-05-07 20:51:28
|
On other hand, as a server with binary modules i can use it completely without Tcl or Web/ADP stuff. As swiss-army server framework it can be very useful without using Tcl, and i actually use it this way in multiple places. Adding Tcl to this just makes it much more flexible and powerful but making binary server as Tcl package and require it to run within Tcl i am not sure i like. Making libnsd.so true Tcl package i would like to help though. Andrew Piskorski wrote: > On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 05:05:13PM +0200, Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > >> Does anybody have any interest in making us being a >> yet-another Tcl loadable extension? > > Yes. From his past comments on the AOLserver list, Jeff Hobbs would > probably be interested too. > |
From: Andrew P. <at...@pi...> - 2008-05-07 20:45:11
|
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 05:05:13PM +0200, Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > Does anybody have any interest in making us being a > yet-another Tcl loadable extension? Yes. From his past comments on the AOLserver list, Jeff Hobbs would probably be interested too. -- Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...> http://www.piskorski.com/ |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-07 19:22:41
|
On 07.05.2008, at 19:56, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > system may attract or make it easy to handle > access to more developers I doubt that. You could do that only if you make the server to be (one of the platforms) for some Web toolkits like ACS or Ruby on Rails etc pp. And, optionaly, if you make it "simple" and fast to deploy, like being a loadable Tcl extension. Or a Ruby extension (I'm brainstorming). |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-07 19:00:47
|
On 07.05.2008, at 19:15, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > Once you started the server, it is not Tcl package anymore, need > nscp to > access it. Depends. If you think in the box, yes. If you step out of the box then yes and no. What I actually think is to marry the rw-config module with the code and make the server configuration from Tcl. Say, each new virtual server gets its own Tcl command that can be used to modify the config on the fly etc.pp. The whole idea is still in a very very rudimentary state. What I would like to achieve is really to get more people evaluate the server by simply snap-in the package and fire-up one or more virtual servers. All under exteral (Tcl) control. This would mean some considerable re-plumbing in ns_main.c but it ls doable. Allright, perhaps some more plumbing... Zoran |
From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2008-05-07 17:56:43
|
One benefit i can see is not immediate and obvious but having more flexible source control system may attract or make it easy to handle access to more developers, easy to revert unneeded changes, as Stephan pointed, better patch control and changsets. Yes, it will require some learning but not that much, still this is just source control system, using it in the-CVS-mode, as commit/update/diff, will be possible with any tool. Oh, one more, it is 21st century, CVS is not part of that:-))) Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > On 06.05.2008, at 01:56, Stephen Deasey wrote: > >> I am too lazy to write that essay. You should try it out to see what >> you're missing out on. Here's a starter: > > That _was_ the essay! Thanks for going to such extent to > show me what SVN can do. > > I recall watching a video on YouTube with Linus Thorvalds > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 > > where he takes both CVS and SVN under heavy barrage, > advocating for his GIT solution. As we are in the process > of considering a repository change, I thought everybody > should be at least informed about the other possibilities. > > Personally, if you guys think we will benefit from such a > change, I will be the last one to oppose. It is just that > I do not have much time learning something new if it isn't > really bringing me immediate benefits (life is short and > internet is large). > > Cheers > Zoran > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > |
From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2008-05-07 17:15:34
|
Once you started the server, it is not Tcl package anymore, need nscp to access it. Or i am not following? Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > Hi! > > I believe we talked about that some time ago already. > Does anybody have any interest in making us being a > yet-another Tcl loadable extension? One that you could > for example "package require naviserver" and then > configure and start/manage several virtual http servers > from within a Tcl environment/program? > > Here I do not think about loading the libnsd.so only. > I mean the complete server plus modules. > > Cheers > Zoran > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-07 15:05:33
|
Hi! I believe we talked about that some time ago already. Does anybody have any interest in making us being a yet-another Tcl loadable extension? One that you could for example "package require naviserver" and then configure and start/manage several virtual http servers from within a Tcl environment/program? Here I do not think about loading the libnsd.so only. I mean the complete server plus modules. Cheers Zoran |
From: Gustaf N. <ne...@wu...> - 2008-05-07 10:24:30
|
Let me point out another nice feature of git: git provides server-support to behave to clients like a cvs and/or svn server. This means, one can access the git repository from cvs or svn (or git) clients. Not sure if this is an issue, but a user who does not want to learn new commands can contiune to use the CVS interface. I personally like git for its speed and simplicity to setup and usage. Git has certain ideosyncharies (e.g. does not like empty directories), and the downside is that if the full feature set of a more distributed scm is used, things become quite complex, at least for a casual user. just my 2cent -gustaf Ibrahim Tannir schrieb: > FWIW, to let my paranoia out: > > I don't like SVN because it obscures and packs the whole > repository into one big file, which IMHO overshadows all its > benifits. > > I've been able in tha past to resolve the consequences of quite a > few CVS bugs, due to the open structure of its repository. > > OTOH, if we're to continue using the services of SourceForge for > the Naviserver project and Vlad, Stephen and Zoran who do most of > the work are dissatisfied with CVS... > > I think at some point, there were contemplations to move the > project to some local machines. Vlad was offering to host it, > wasn't he? We (Zoran and I) at ARCHIWARE could offer a mirror > too. In that case, we can consider going for other source control > systems (GIT?) etc. and away from both CVS and SVN. > > Ibrahim > |
From: Ibrahim T. <it...@ar...> - 2008-05-07 10:03:36
|
FWIW, to let my paranoia out: I don't like SVN because it obscures and packs the whole repository into one big file, which IMHO overshadows all its benifits. I've been able in tha past to resolve the consequences of quite a few CVS bugs, due to the open structure of its repository. OTOH, if we're to continue using the services of SourceForge for the Naviserver project and Vlad, Stephen and Zoran who do most of the work are dissatisfied with CVS... I think at some point, there were contemplations to move the project to some local machines. Vlad was offering to host it, wasn't he? We (Zoran and I) at ARCHIWARE could offer a mirror too. In that case, we can consider going for other source control systems (GIT?) etc. and away from both CVS and SVN. Ibrahim Vasiljevic Zoran wrote: > On 06.05.2008, at 01:56, Stephen Deasey wrote: > >> I am too lazy to write that essay. You should try it out to see what >> you're missing out on. Here's a starter: > > That _was_ the essay! Thanks for going to such extent to > show me what SVN can do. > > I recall watching a video on YouTube with Linus Thorvalds > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 > > where he takes both CVS and SVN under heavy barrage, > advocating for his GIT solution. As we are in the process > of considering a repository change, I thought everybody > should be at least informed about the other possibilities. > > Personally, if you guys think we will benefit from such a > change, I will be the last one to oppose. It is just that > I do not have much time learning something new if it isn't > really bringing me immediate benefits (life is short and > internet is large). > > Cheers > Zoran |
From: Vasiljevic Z. <zv...@ar...> - 2008-05-07 09:11:57
|
On 06.05.2008, at 01:56, Stephen Deasey wrote: > I am too lazy to write that essay. You should try it out to see what > you're missing out on. Here's a starter: That _was_ the essay! Thanks for going to such extent to show me what SVN can do. I recall watching a video on YouTube with Linus Thorvalds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 where he takes both CVS and SVN under heavy barrage, advocating for his GIT solution. As we are in the process of considering a repository change, I thought everybody should be at least informed about the other possibilities. Personally, if you guys think we will benefit from such a change, I will be the last one to oppose. It is just that I do not have much time learning something new if it isn't really bringing me immediate benefits (life is short and internet is large). Cheers Zoran |
From: Stephen D. <sd...@gm...> - 2008-05-05 23:59:32
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On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Vlad Seryakov <vl...@cr...> wrote: > Frankly, i would go from CVS to SVN/Mercurial/Git, whatever. > I still think SF CVS sucks, so i would switch anytime if my voice will > need to be counted:-))) > > The question i have, is freehg.org reliable and supposed to live long? > On other hand SF is very popular and search engine favorite, not that > popularity is my big concern though. freehg.org was just a convenient place to publish. I guess we would put the repos on the sourceforge web space. Mercurial can run as a cgi script front end to the repo for anonymous pulling and web browsing. Commiters would push via ssh. |
From: Stephen D. <sd...@gm...> - 2008-05-05 23:56:41
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On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Vasiljevic Zoran <zv...@ar...> wrote: > > On 02.05.2008, at 21:50, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > >> Frankly, i would go from CVS to SVN/Mercurial/Git, whatever. >> I still think SF CVS sucks, so i would switch anytime if my voice will >> need to be counted:-))) > > It seems as I'm the only one advocating continued use of CVS... > And I have a simple reason: I do not see any benefit undertaking > this (abandond-CVS) effort. What is to be gained? Or, perhaps, > whar is that we are loosing by sticking to CVS? I am too lazy to write that essay. You should try it out to see what you're missing out on. Here's a starter: mkdir ~/in ~/co hg clone http://freehg.org/u/groks/naviserver/ ~/in/naviserver hg clone ~/in/naviserver ~/co/ns-work cd ~/co/ns-work hg log -l 10 (I haven't updated the hg naviserver repo recently) Try exporting some of your recent changes to the naviserver cvs repo as patches, and then importing them to the hg repo. Enable the mq Mercurial Queues extension: # ~/.hgrc [extensions] mq= Enable mq for your repo: hg qinit Import a few patches: hg qimport ~/driver-send-recv.diff hg qimport ~/nsjob-cancel.diff hg qimport ~/nsjob-handle.diff hg qimport ~/driver-send-recv-backout.diff hg qimport ~/nsjob-errorcode.diff hg qimport ~/nsjob-deadlock.diff Check the repo: hg log -l 10 hg outgoing hg help outgoing You could imagine that this is what you actually did -- you committed a handful of patches locally before pushing them to the public repo. Because you haven't typed 'hg push', you can change your mind. For example, you could completely remove the send-recv patches: hg qpop -a hg qdel driver-send-recv.diff hg qdel driver-send-recv-backout.diff hg qpush -a hg qseries hg log -l 5 hg serve -v I think the big advantage is that you it encourages you to write better patches and it encourages better collaboration. There are technical benefits as there were with subversion over cvs, such as renames and atomic commits, but they're not day-to-day important. It's that it encourages you to write high quality patches because you're not worried about merging in your changes before some one else touches the same files, you can break large changes down into a series of well commented changesets -- a patchest, and you can edit your patches into something coherent before you push to every one else. Give it a try. |
From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2008-05-05 21:20:49
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Fixed, i actually tested it only with the setup from README file, but it should not crash because of different openssl flags. Daniel Stasinski wrote: > Before I begin hunting down a crash involving nsssl from cvs, are > there any known issues? > > The server loads with no errors but crashes on the first ssl page access. > > ns_section ns/server/default/module/nsssl > ns_param port 443 > ns_param address 192.168.0.10 > ns_param hostname secure.server.com > ns_param certificate > /home/nsadmin/naviserver/servers/www.server.com/modules/nsssl/server.pem > ns_param ciphers > "ALL:!ADH:!EXPORT56:RC4+RSA:+HIGH:+MEDIUM:+LOW:+SSLv2:+EXP" > ns_param protocols "SSLv2, SSLv3, TLSv1" > > Daniel > |
From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2008-05-05 19:49:22
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Yes, it does not work with latest driver, API, i will make it up-to-date and commit Daniel Stasinski wrote: > Before I begin hunting down a crash involving nsssl from cvs, are > there any known issues? > > The server loads with no errors but crashes on the first ssl page access. > > ns_section ns/server/default/module/nsssl > ns_param port 443 > ns_param address 192.168.0.10 > ns_param hostname secure.server.com > ns_param certificate > /home/nsadmin/naviserver/servers/www.server.com/modules/nsssl/server.pem > ns_param ciphers > "ALL:!ADH:!EXPORT56:RC4+RSA:+HIGH:+MEDIUM:+LOW:+SSLv2:+EXP" > ns_param protocols "SSLv2, SSLv3, TLSv1" > > Daniel > |