naviserver-devel — Developer discussion

Re: [naviserver-devel] Interesting...

[Gustaf N. <ne...@wu...>]

Zoran Vasiljevic schrieb:

>
> This is what I get on single-cpu:
>
> Tcl: 8.4.12
> starting 16 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 94103 usec
> starting 16 ckalloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 243616 usec
>
> and on 2CPU:
>
> Tcl: 8.4.12
> starting 16 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 435068 usec
> starting 16 ckalloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 151250 usec
>
>
> Both are Mac OSX boxes. The single CPU is a 1.5GHz Mac Mini and the 2CPU
> is a G4 with 2x800Mhz PowerPC.

could not resist to try this on our p5 production system under modest load
(64bit, linux, lpar with 25 processors, 8 dual-core with ibms version of 
hyperthreading)
processor       : 25
cpu             : POWER5 (gr)
clock           : 1904.448000MHz
revision        : 2.3

timebase        : 238056000
machine         : CHRP IBM,9117-570


Tcl: 8.4.11
starting 16 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 24791 usec
starting 16 ckalloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 6973 usec

interesting enough nsthreadtest crashes (but with aolserver 4.0.10)

i know, we should upgrade...

-gustaf

>
>
>
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Re: [naviserver-devel] Interesting...

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Am 02.02.2006 um 12:01 schrieb Bernd Eidenschink:

>
> Or is it supposed to run veeeery long on my machine? :-)

No. I believe the Tcl library you linked with is
not compiled with --enable-threads. Can you check that?

Re: [naviserver-devel] Interesting...

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Zoran,

I compiled it w/o symbols but it seems to hang in MemTime:

Tcl: 8.4.11
starting 16 malloc threads...

Or is it supposed to run veeeery long on my machine? :-)

Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Interesting...

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Am 02.02.2006 um 10:48 schrieb Bernd Eidenschink:

> Hi Zoran,
>
> Am Donnerstag, 2. Februar 2006 10:01 schrieb Zoran Vasiljevic:
>> Am 01.02.2006 um 17:15 schrieb Vlad Seryakov:
>>> On my machine with tcl 8.4.12
>>>
>>> starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 16003 usec
>>> starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 13207
>>> usec
>>
>> I've been trying to see why I'm getting worse values with ns_malloc
>> as with malloc and it turned out to be that only in 2+CPU box I was
>> able to get ns_malloc outperform the malloc. On all single-cpu boxes
>> the times were 2 up to 4 times better with plain malloc!
>
> Single-CPU-box, Tcl 8.4.12; SuSE w/ Kernel 2.6.13-15.7-default.
>
> starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 36667 usec
> starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 16620  
> usec
>
>> Does anybody have a single AND multi-cpu box to try out?
>
> Hyperthreading, but the Kernel sees 2 CPUs:
> (Same compilation of NaviServer; Kernel 2.6.13-15.7-smp)
>
> starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 13018 usec
> starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 10599  
> usec
>

Damn, I still cannot believe...
Can you download the:

    http://www.archiware.com/www/downloads/memtest.c

and compile:

    gcc -o memtest memtest.c -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib - 
ltcl8.4g

or (for Tcl w/o symbols)

    gcc -o memtest memtest.c -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib - 
ltcl8.4

and give it a try on both machines?

This is what I get on single-cpu:

Tcl: 8.4.12
starting 16 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 94103 usec
starting 16 ckalloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 243616 usec

and on 2CPU:

Tcl: 8.4.12
starting 16 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 435068 usec
starting 16 ckalloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 151250 usec


Both are Mac OSX boxes. The single CPU is a 1.5GHz Mac Mini and the 2CPU
is a G4 with 2x800Mhz PowerPC.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Interesting...

[Bernd E. <b.e...@ki...>]

Hi Zoran,

Am Donnerstag, 2. Februar 2006 10:01 schrieb Zoran Vasiljevic:
> Am 01.02.2006 um 17:15 schrieb Vlad Seryakov:
> > On my machine with tcl 8.4.12
> >
> > starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 16003 usec
> > starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 13207
> > usec
>
> I've been trying to see why I'm getting worse values with ns_malloc
> as with malloc and it turned out to be that only in 2+CPU box I was
> able to get ns_malloc outperform the malloc. On all single-cpu boxes
> the times were 2 up to 4 times better with plain malloc!

Single-CPU-box, Tcl 8.4.12; SuSE w/ Kernel 2.6.13-15.7-default.

starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 36667 usec
starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 16620 usec

> Does anybody have a single AND multi-cpu box to try out?

Hyperthreading, but the Kernel sees 2 CPUs:
(Same compilation of NaviServer; Kernel 2.6.13-15.7-smp)

starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 13018 usec
starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 10599 usec

Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Interesting...

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Am 01.02.2006 um 17:15 schrieb Vlad Seryakov:

> On my machine with tcl 8.4.12
>
> starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 16003 usec
> starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 13207  
> usec

I've been trying to see why I'm getting worse values with ns_malloc
as with malloc and it turned out to be that only in 2+CPU box I was
able to get ns_malloc outperform the malloc. On all single-cpu boxes
the times were 2 up to 4 times better with plain malloc!

Does anybody have a single AND multi-cpu box to try out?

Cheers
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] Interesting...

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

On my machine with tcl 8.4.12

starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 16003 usec
starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 13207 usec


Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Running the nsthreadtest utility reveals some interesting facts:
> 
> Mac OSX
> starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 48015 usec
> starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 75784 usec
> 
> Linux:
> starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 9686 usec
> starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 30727 usec
> 
> Solaris:
> starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 31668 usec
> starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 54280 usec
> 
> What is most interesting is not the absolute sizes but the
> ratio between ns_malloc use and native malloc timings!
> 
> According to the output, the malloc is faster (quite significantly).
> I recall times when it was the other way arround. The ns_malloc was
> initially ment to be better (or more optimal) when using threads
> as it would have less lock contention due to its internal handling.
> 
> What I'd ask you is to try to reproduce this on your machine
> so we can see wether this is something generaly wrong or just
> wrong at my site. In the former case we'd have to dig into and
> see what is happening and if those tests are really to depend on
> or not.
> 
> Cheers
> Zoran
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

[naviserver-devel] Interesting...

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Hi!

Running the nsthreadtest utility reveals some interesting facts:

Mac OSX
starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 48015 usec
starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 75784 usec

Linux:
starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 9686 usec
starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 30727 usec

Solaris:
starting 10 malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 31668 usec
starting 10 ns_malloc threads...waiting....done:  0 seconds, 54280 usec

What is most interesting is not the absolute sizes but the
ratio between ns_malloc use and native malloc timings!

According to the output, the malloc is faster (quite significantly).
I recall times when it was the other way arround. The ns_malloc was
initially ment to be better (or more optimal) when using threads
as it would have less lock contention due to its internal handling.

What I'd ask you is to try to reproduce this on your machine
so we can see wether this is something generaly wrong or just
wrong at my site. In the former case we'd have to dig into and
see what is happening and if those tests are really to depend on
or not.

Cheers
Zoran

[naviserver-devel] sample-config.tcl typo?

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

# Number of spooler threads
ns_param        spoolerthreads          1

# Number of writer threads
ns_param        writerthreads           0

# Number of writer threads
ns_param        writersize              1048576

The "writersize" comment is wrong.

Cheers
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Hi Vlad,

> I made some small changes regarding initial installation in CVS, looks
> more like Apache now but i think it is much easier. Also included now 2
> config files that can be used immediatelly being sample-config.tcl more
> documented and eventually it will include description of every config 
> parameter.

I tried this also on the Wiki, to collect lots of config options,
looking up default values:
http://naviserver.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Complete_Configfile

But it lacks some of the new NaviServer features. Some parts may even
no longer exist, i'll try to update it soon.

-Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

I made some small changes regarding initial installation in CVS, looks 
more like Apache now but i think it is much easier. Also included now 2 
config files that can be used immediatelly being sample-config.tcl more 
documented and eventually it will include description of every config 
parameter.

Bernd Eidenschink wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> 
>>Huh?  I'd say the typical first-time AOLserver user needs to set up at
>>least two AOLserver instances, one for his Development site and one
>>for Production.  This should be the DEFAULT, easiest to do setup, not
>>something special that every new user has to hack in for themselves.
> 
> 
> This may be true for the typical first-time AOLserver user, but not
> for the first-time NaviServer user... just kidding :-)
> 
> When I look through the archives I only see people struggling with
> first time configuration, database access, asking port-questions,
> access-questions, things like that. But not professional deployment
> with development and production sites ("typical first-time...").
> I for myself for example can't use the default structure at all,
> as we always install chrooted environments.
> 
> I think things like that should go into documentation examples in
> the distribution or on the wiki.
> 
> -Bernd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Hi Andrew,

> Huh?  I'd say the typical first-time AOLserver user needs to set up at
> least two AOLserver instances, one for his Development site and one
> for Production.  This should be the DEFAULT, easiest to do setup, not
> something special that every new user has to hack in for themselves.

This may be true for the typical first-time AOLserver user, but not
for the first-time NaviServer user... just kidding :-)

When I look through the archives I only see people struggling with
first time configuration, database access, asking port-questions,
access-questions, things like that. But not professional deployment
with development and production sites ("typical first-time...").
I for myself for example can't use the default structure at all,
as we always install chrooted environments.

I think things like that should go into documentation examples in
the distribution or on the wiki.

-Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Andrew P. <at...@pi...>]

On Thu, Jan 19, 2006 at 09:08:09PM -0500, Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am proposing new directory structure for /usr/local/ns, current 
> installation of naviserver comes from aolserver multi-server environment 
> which is not very usual. For beginners it is very confusing, for 

Huh?  I'd say the typical first-time AOLserver user needs to set up at
least two AOLserver instances, one for his Development site and one
for Production.  This should be the DEFAULT, easiest to do setup, not
something special that every new user has to hack in for themselves.

-- 
Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...>
http://www.piskorski.com/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

> Looks like it depends on distribution, in my Archlinux /etc/httpd/conf
> has only httpd.conf as in default apache distrib, but different vendors
> do local customizations. We just need to come to some solution and make it.

The single well documented config file is the best starting point, anyway...

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

> 
> really? isn't the opposite the case?
> on all my SuSE boxes there's a main config file including the others.
> think this is so for a long history of releases.
> so all of these server management tools just need to create separate
> config files, e.g. for virtual servers, to add new entries, e.g.
> 

Looks like it depends on distribution, in my Archlinux /etc/httpd/conf 
has only httpd.conf as in default apache distrib, but different vendors 
do local customizations. We just need to come to some solution and make it.

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

> Apache used to have different .conf file but then merged into one 
> httpd.conf.

really? isn't the opposite the case?
on all my SuSE boxes there's a main config file including the others.
think this is so for a long history of releases.
so all of these server management tools just need to create separate
config files, e.g. for virtual servers, to add new entries, e.g.

> Multiple config files may not be easy to maintain and configure.

depends. options can be documented more thoroughly as one would if there is
only one file available. negative example is a squid config file, if i
remember right).

-Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

Apache used to have different .conf file but then merged into one 
httpd.conf. Multiple config files may not be easy to maintain and configure.

Bernd Eidenschink wrote:
> Hi Vlad,
> 
> 
>>Agree, some directory (like contrib/) with all examples and startup
>>script would be good to have. Also, similar to postfix, example config
>>with description for each parameter can be provided, but runtime config
>>during installation would have only needed parameters.
> 
> 
> yes, postfix has a well documented main.cf file. maybe something
> apache-like would also work: one file, explaining config structure and
> including (sourcing) other parts, like "listen.conf", "modules.conf",
> a vhost-config directory where all virtual host files ending in .conf
> are sourced, mime.conf, database.conf, threads.conf, things like that.
> 
> finally, in an RPM, we could manage a structure like:
> 
> /etc/nsd/nsdconf.tcl
>                     - listen.conf
>                     - mime.conf
>                     - threads.conf (or performance.conf ...)
>                     - modules.conf
> 
>                     vhosts/
>                            www_example_com.conf
>                            www_elpmaxe_com.conf
>                            ...
> 
> just a thought.
> 
> -Bernd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Hi Vlad,

> Agree, some directory (like contrib/) with all examples and startup
> script would be good to have. Also, similar to postfix, example config
> with description for each parameter can be provided, but runtime config
> during installation would have only needed parameters.

yes, postfix has a well documented main.cf file. maybe something
apache-like would also work: one file, explaining config structure and
including (sourcing) other parts, like "listen.conf", "modules.conf",
a vhost-config directory where all virtual host files ending in .conf
are sourced, mime.conf, database.conf, threads.conf, things like that.

finally, in an RPM, we could manage a structure like:

/etc/nsd/nsdconf.tcl
                    - listen.conf
                    - mime.conf
                    - threads.conf (or performance.conf ...)
                    - modules.conf

                    vhosts/
                           www_example_com.conf
                           www_elpmaxe_com.conf
                           ...

just a thought.

-Bernd

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

> Looks good. Especially the "logs" dir as a central place for logs is nice. 
> Where is man? (or doc)

doc/ and/or man/ should be installed as well


> Would be nice to have it! Including mimetypes in a tcl file is more visible 
> than only in the c-code. I also have a list of types, but not as long as 
> yours.

will add

> I would recommend to add an example directory, including e.g. a dir 
> "startscripts" that holds this one and more, e.g. I can add a SuSE specific 
> one. 
> One problem (when including it generally at bin/) is that all arguments would 
> have to be created during make process or by a config script (like Stephens 
> suggestion of a "nsdeploy") in order to work with different prefixes.
> 
> Saying this mainly the biggest effort would be to adhere to FSH or LSB 
> standards. This is not important now as it can be passed on to a RPM 
> approach: No files would be installed to /usr/local, they would spread over 
> different places like /srv/ (only for docroot), /usr/bin etc.
> 

Agree, some directory (like contrib/) with all examples and startup 
script would be good to have. Also, similar to postfix, example config 
with description for each parameter can be provided, but runtime config 
during installation would have only needed parameters.

Also, do wee need to support old aolserver's way of doing server-based 
virtual hosting with global nssock. This always beed very confusing and 
hard to suppport part, now when we have dynamic vhosting, i would drop 
old way. It is just in driver.c, nothing else needs to be changed?

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Hi Vlad,

> /usr/local/ns
>                bin
>                conf
>                include
>                lib
>                html
>                tcl
>                logs
>                modules

Looks good. Especially the "logs" dir as a central place for logs is nice. 
Where is man? (or doc)

> In mime.tcl i keep long list(504 lines) of all known mime types, it is
> easier to add/modify this file and keep server up-to-date with new mime
> types. I'd like to add it to distribution.

Would be nice to have it! Including mimetypes in a tcl file is more visible 
than only in the c-code. I also have a list of types, but not as long as 
yours.

> bin/nsd.start is
>
> #!/bin/bash
> USER=nobody
> GROUP=nobody
> BIN=/usr/local/ns/bin/nsd
> CFG=/usr/local/ns/conf/nsd.tcl
> LOG=/usr/local/ns/logs/nsd.log
>
> touch $LOG
> chown $USER $LOG
> exec $BIN -i -u $USER -g $GROUP -t $CFG >> $LOG 2>&1

I would recommend to add an example directory, including e.g. a dir 
"startscripts" that holds this one and more, e.g. I can add a SuSE specific 
one. 
One problem (when including it generally at bin/) is that all arguments would 
have to be created during make process or by a config script (like Stephens 
suggestion of a "nsdeploy") in order to work with different prefixes.

Saying this mainly the biggest effort would be to adhere to FSH or LSB 
standards. This is not important now as it can be passed on to a RPM 
approach: No files would be installed to /usr/local, they would spread over 
different places like /srv/ (only for docroot), /usr/bin etc.

-Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Where to place Documentation

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Zoran,

> I've been currently swamped with finishing our 2.0
> release and have pretty tight schedule. 

good luck! the announcement of 2.0 on your website tells from your long hours! 
A huge load of new features.

-Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

Yes, that is my point, by default install in simpler structure and 
provide examples of more complex setups whether in config file or other 
sample-configs.tlc files.

It is just currently it is neither of two, only confusing installation 
and non-complete sample config:-)))

Jeff Rogers wrote:
> Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am proposing new directory structure for /usr/local/ns, current 
>> installation of naviserver comes from aolserver multi-server 
>> environment which is not very usual. For beginners it is very 
>> confusing, for advanced users it does not matter because they 
>> customize it as they want.
> 
> 
> I'n new to naviserver but I've been working with aolserver for a while.
> 
> The simpler sample-config and directory structure is good, but please 
> include a more complex example too - a working setup with multiple 
> servers (virtual hosts) would be a good thing; setting up vhosts in 
> aolserver 4 is very flexible but not at all clear to the novice (or even 
> intermediate) developer.  For vhosts, better still would be a 
> question/answer script to generate the appropriate part of the config file.
> 
> -J
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log 
> files
> for problems?  Stop!  Download the new AJAX search engine that makes
> searching your log files as easy as surfing the  web.  DOWNLOAD SPLUNK!
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel
> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Jeff R. <dv...@di...>]

Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am proposing new directory structure for /usr/local/ns, current 
> installation of naviserver comes from aolserver multi-server environment 
> which is not very usual. For beginners it is very confusing, for 
> advanced users it does not matter because they customize it as they want.

I'n new to naviserver but I've been working with aolserver for a while.

The simpler sample-config and directory structure is good, but please 
include a more complex example too - a working setup with multiple 
servers (virtual hosts) would be a good thing; setting up vhosts in 
aolserver 4 is very flexible but not at all clear to the novice (or even 
intermediate) developer.  For vhosts, better still would be a 
question/answer script to generate the appropriate part of the config file.

-J

[naviserver-devel] Directory structure

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

Hi,

I am proposing new directory structure for /usr/local/ns, current 
installation of naviserver comes from aolserver multi-server environment 
which is not very usual. For beginners it is very confusing, for 
advanced users it does not matter because they customize it as they want.

What do you think about this:

/usr/local/ns
               bin
               conf
               include
               lib
               html
               tcl
               logs
               modules

The only changes need to be made in Makefile and sample-config.tcl. Also 
something like nsd.start in bin/ would be usefull as well. It looks very 
like Apache/Tomcat and this is not bad.

sample-config.tcl could be changed into nsd.tcl and put into 
conf/nsd.tcl upon install.

Changes in sample-config.tcl:

set home        /usr/local/ns

ns_section      "ns/server/${server}"
ns_param        pageroot                ${home}/html

ns_section      "ns/parameters"
ns_param        serverlog               ${home}/logs/nsd.log
ns_param        pidfile                 ${home}/logs/nsd.pid

ns_section      "ns/mimetypes"
ns_param        default                 text/plain
ns_param        noextension             text/plain
source          ${home}/etc/mime.tcl

ns_section      "ns/server/${server}/fastpath"
ns_param        serverdir               ${home}
ns_param        pagedir                 html

ns_section      "ns/server/${server}/tcl"
ns_param        library                 ${home}

ns_section      "ns/server/${server}/module/nslog"
ns_param        file                    ${home}/logs/access.log


In mime.tcl i keep long list(504 lines) of all known mime types, it is 
easier to add/modify this file and keep server up-to-date with new mime 
types. I'd like to add it to distribution.

bin/nsd.start is

#!/bin/bash
USER=nobody
GROUP=nobody
BIN=/usr/local/ns/bin/nsd
CFG=/usr/local/ns/conf/nsd.tcl
LOG=/usr/local/ns/logs/nsd.log

touch $LOG
chown $USER $LOG
exec $BIN -i -u $USER -g $GROUP -t $CFG >> $LOG 2>&1

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Where to place Documentation

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Am 19.01.2006 um 18:17 schrieb Bernd Eidenschink:

>
> Apropos: Is there a magic-convert to doctoolformat the current  
> nroff files?

Heh... you're asking questions... I have NO idea.
I've been currently swamped with finishing our 2.0
release and have pretty tight schedule. I'm afraid
you will have to google arround a little or post a
question on comp.lang.tcl...

Cheers
Zoran