naviserver-devel — Developer discussion

Re: [naviserver-devel] New nsproxy module

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Am 16.05.2006 um 16:17 schrieb Bernd Eidenschink:

>
> Is it only me that misses mails from the mailing list from time to  
> time?

It's me as well. For example I never got that email from Vlad!
Probably he's wondering why nobody is responding...
>
>> Recently i was looking into nsproxy to accomplish an opposite  
>> task, my
>> nsd runs as nobody but i need ability to execute some scripts as root
>> but it looks like nsproxy is not designed for this task without  
>> hacking
>> nsd: i.e. run nsd as root, spawn nsproxy then manually switch nsd to
>> nobody.

IIRC, you COULD do that if you setuid the nsproxy executable, or?

Cheers,
Zoran
  

Re: [naviserver-devel] New nsproxy module

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Am 16.05.2006 um 16:06 schrieb Andrew Piskorski:

> Changes in AOLserver CVS after they initially added nsproxy, or
> changes which you've committed to the Naviserver CVS?

Changes I commited to Naviserver CVS. In AOLserver CVS I just
fixed two very obvious bugs. Besides, the nsproxy in AOLserver
part is still work-under-progress, as not all that is said in
the docs works that way actually (most notably the assertions
of the min/max slaves).

I believe the part I did for the Naviserver is more sexy but
I would not like to go back and try to persuade AOL to put
it in their CVS. You know what that all means with the
"Kerberos" person (lots of unwanted and non-productive side
effects, discussions a'la "only Jim writes good code" and all
that other rubbish). Anyways, we are also open source so they
can take changes from us if they want.

Cheers,
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] CVS Status

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

> Good news: The SF team read our thread and immediately started to go for
> solutions :-)

wow, messages from the past. Now they read my complaint in the other mail and 
sent this one away...

"...spam1.sourceforge.net" :-)

----------------------

Received: from [66.35.250.225] (helo=lists-outbound.sourceforge.net)
	by mx12.web.de with esmtp (WEB.DE 4.107 #108)
	id 1Fg0Gt-0006gA-00; Tue, 16 May 2006 16:11:36 +0200
Received: from sc8-sf-list2-b.sourceforge.net (sc8-sf-list2-b.sourceforge.net 
[10.3.1.8])
	by sc8-sf-spam1.sourceforge.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 23F358DB26; Thu, 11 May 2006 22:32:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sc8-sf-mx1-b.sourceforge.net ([10.3.1.91] 

[...]

Received: by chlorine.webpack.hosteurope.de running Exim 4.51 using esmtpsa 
(TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128)
	from [195.37.209.41] (helo=loki.kinetiqa.de)
	id 1FeQFl-0000UI-3I; Fri, 12 May 2006 07:31:53 +0200

Re: [naviserver-devel] New nsproxy module

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Is it only me that misses mails from the mailing list from time to time? 
If so, I have to blame my spamfilter... :-(
Without Vlad quoting Zorans mail I would never have heard of it.

And likewise I'm not sure if the browsable archives are up to date...
http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=130646

> Recently i was looking into nsproxy to accomplish an opposite task, my
> nsd runs as nobody but i need ability to execute some scripts as root
> but it looks like nsproxy is not designed for this task without hacking
> nsd: i.e. run nsd as root, spawn nsproxy then manually switch nsd to
> nobody.
>
> Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> > Hi!
[...]

Re: [naviserver-devel] New nsproxy module

[Andrew P. <at...@pi...>]

On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 12:01:27PM +0200, Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:

> I have concluded the work of getting the nsproxy module
> from the AOLserver repository into ours.
> 
> There have been *numerous* changes and improvements to the
> initial code. See ChangeLog for more details.

Changes in AOLserver CVS after they initially added nsproxy, or
changes which you've committed to the Naviserver CVS?

-- 
Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...>
http://www.piskorski.com/

Re: [naviserver-devel] New nsproxy module

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

Recently i was looking into nsproxy to accomplish an opposite task, my 
nsd runs as nobody but i need ability to execute some scripts as root 
but it looks like nsproxy is not designed for this task without hacking 
nsd: i.e. run nsd as root, spawn nsproxy then manually switch nsd to nobody.

Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I have concluded the work of getting the nsproxy module
> from the AOLserver repository into ours.
> 
> There have been *numerous* changes and improvements to the
> initial code. See ChangeLog for more details.
> There is also a test-suite and a man-page written in doctools.
> All is under the nsproxy directory which is new so you may
> need to checkout your sandbox.
> 
> To get a html or nroff file from ns_proxy.man, please see
> the docs/src/README.doc file.
> 
> The sample-config.tcl now includes the nsproxy module.
> Also the test server used for "make test" loads and
> exercises the module. As of my experience, it works fine
> on Mac OSX, Linux and Solaris OS'es.
> 
> Please checkoout the new nsproxy and tell me if you get
> any problems with it. We plan to deploy it in one of the next
> releases of our product. Our main motivation to work on that
> was the ability to execute Tcl code in a controllable manner
> outside the server and under different user/group than
> the server itself. Our app runs the nsd as root but at some
> places we need to execute some Tcl code as different user.
> Now, under Unix threading model it is not possible to "impersonate"
> a thread, which is possible only under Windows. For Unix we need
> to get the code executed in a different process, hence I was very
> pleased to see Jim adding this nsproxy module to AOLserver.
> I believe this was just a small rewrite of the db-proxy module.
> But it is in itself a very helpful thing for us. It will hopefully
> be of use for the rest of the Naviserver users.
> 
> 
> Off-topic:
> At this point it is clear that we need to invest more time in
> getting the docs written. We now have so much new functionality
> built into the server that I start loosing the overview.
> I would encourage everybody to look into the files in doctools
> provided so far and start adding content. In one of the next
> days I will add a template page for each Tcl-API command under
> the docs/src.
> 
> Cheers
> Zoran
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job 
> easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> naviserver-devel mailing list
> nav...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel
> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

[naviserver-devel] Fwd: [TCLCORE] script to correct CVS/Root for new SF structure

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Jeff Hobbs <je...@ac...>
> Date: 13. Mai 2006 17:47:11 MESZ
> To: Andreas Kupries <aku...@sh...>
> Cc: tcl...@li...
> Subject: Re: [TCLCORE] script to correct CVS/Root for new SF structure
>
> Andreas Kupries wrote:
>>> You can find a script that modifies the CVS/Root files in a  
>>> directory tree at:
>>>
>>> 	ftp://ftp.tcl.tk/pub/incoming/fixcvsroot.tcl
>
> Andreas found a corner case not handled ...
>
>> Ok ... My CVS/Root had a trailing newline and your regexp allowed  
>> this
>> to slip into the 'proj variable. A simple [string trim] is  
>> sufficient to
>> get rid of it.
>>     if {[regexp {([^@]+)@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/(.+)\n} $data \
>> 	    -> user proj]} {
>> ***	set proj [string trim $proj]
>> 	set new $user@$proj.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/$proj
>
> I have fixed the script at the ftp location.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,  
> security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your  
> job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache  
> Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel? 
> cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core

[naviserver-devel] New nsproxy module

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Hi!

I have concluded the work of getting the nsproxy module
from the AOLserver repository into ours.

There have been *numerous* changes and improvements to the
initial code. See ChangeLog for more details.
There is also a test-suite and a man-page written in doctools.
All is under the nsproxy directory which is new so you may
need to checkout your sandbox.

To get a html or nroff file from ns_proxy.man, please see
the docs/src/README.doc file.

The sample-config.tcl now includes the nsproxy module.
Also the test server used for "make test" loads and
exercises the module. As of my experience, it works fine
on Mac OSX, Linux and Solaris OS'es.

Please checkoout the new nsproxy and tell me if you get
any problems with it. We plan to deploy it in one of the next
releases of our product. Our main motivation to work on that
was the ability to execute Tcl code in a controllable manner
outside the server and under different user/group than
the server itself. Our app runs the nsd as root but at some
places we need to execute some Tcl code as different user.
Now, under Unix threading model it is not possible to "impersonate"
a thread, which is possible only under Windows. For Unix we need
to get the code executed in a different process, hence I was very
pleased to see Jim adding this nsproxy module to AOLserver.
I believe this was just a small rewrite of the db-proxy module.
But it is in itself a very helpful thing for us. It will hopefully
be of use for the rest of the Naviserver users.


Off-topic:
At this point it is clear that we need to invest more time in
getting the docs written. We now have so much new functionality
built into the server that I start loosing the overview.
I would encourage everybody to look into the files in doctools
provided so far and start adding content. In one of the next
days I will add a template page for each Tcl-API command under
the docs/src.

Cheers
Zoran

[naviserver-devel] CVS Status

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Good news: The SF team read our thread and immediately started to go for 
solutions :-)


------------------------------------


Greetings,

You are receiving this mail because you are a project admin for
a SourceForge.net-hosted project. One of our primary services,
CVS, suffered a series of interrelated, critical hardware failures
in recent weeks. We understand how frustrating this CVS outage
must be to you and your users; however, our top priority remains
preservation of the integrity of your data.

The series of CVS hardware failures prompted us to expedite the
deployment of planed improvements to our CVS infrastructure,
drawing upon much of the knowledge that we gained from our
Subversion deployment. Our improved CVS service architecture,
which we plan to deploy tomorrow afternoon (2006-05-12), will
offer greater performance and stability and will eliminate several
single points of failure.

The Site Status page (https://www.sf.net/docs/A04) will be
updated as soon as the new infrastructure is rolled out. In the
interim, please read the important information provided below
to learn about how these changes will affect your project.


Summary of changes, effective 2006-05-12:


1. Hostname for CVS service

Old: cvs.sourceforge.net

New: PROJECT_UNIX_NAME.cvs.sourceforge.net

This change will require new working copies to be checked out of all
repositories (so control files in the working copy will point to the
right place). We will be updating the instructions we supply, but
instructions that your team has written within documentation, etc. will
need to be updated.

cvs -d:pserver:ano...@cv...:/cvsroot/gaim co gaim

would be changed to

cvs -d:pserver:ano...@ga...:/cvsroot/gaim co gaim



2. ViewCVS

We are moving from ViewCVS to its successor, ViewVC. ViewVC is
currently in use for our Subversion service.



3. Sync delay

Old: CVS pserver, tarballs and ViewCVS provided against a separate
server which is a minimum of three hours behind developer CVS.

New: ViewVC will be provided against developer CVS (it will be current).
CVS pserver will be provided against a secondary server (not developer
server) with a maximum expected delay of two hours.

Follow-up work is planned (this infrastructure takes us 80% of the way)
to essentially eliminate the sync delay.



4. Read-only rsync service

As a new service offering, we are now providing read-only rsync access
against developer CVS. This allows projects to efficiently make
on-demand backups of their entire CVS repository.

All projects should be making regular backups of their CVS repository
contents using this service.



5. Nightly tarball service

Nightly tarball service is being dropped in lieu of read-only rsync
service. Projects which currently depend on nightly tarballs for
repository backups will need to begin using rsync to make a backup copy
of their repository contents.

We see this as a major functional improvement. For a number of reasons,
tarballs have fallen out of sync with the data in the repository at
times in the past few years. Tarballs required a substantial amount of
additional disk, and I/O to generate. The move to read-only rsync
allows backups to be produced on-demand, with an update frequency chosen
by the project.



6. Points of failure

In the past, developer CVS service for all projects was provided from a
single host. CVS pserver service was provided from individual backend
heads based on a split of the data.

Under our new design, developer CVS and most of our CVS-related services
are provided from one of ten CVS hosts (count subject to increase with
growth). Each host is independent, and makes a backup copy of the
repository data of another host (which is used to provide the pserver
CVS service).

Failure of a single host will impact only the availability of data on
that host. Since the data is split among a larger number of hosts, the
size of data impacted by an individual host outage is substantially
smaller, and the time required for us to restore service will be
substantially shorter.

This rapid architecture change has been made possible specifically using
the research we performed for our recent launch of Subversion service.
We've applied our best practices, produced a substantial amount of
internal documentation, and kept an eye toward maintainability.
This effort has allowed us to deploy this new architecture quickly
once hardware was received, and will permit us to quickly scale
this service horizontally as growth and demand requires. 



Many other minor improvements have also been made to improve the service
offering and make it less trouble-prone. The most important of which are
listed above. For a full description of the new service offering, and
for information on how to use the services described above, please refer
to the site documentation for the CVS service after the service has been
launched: https://www.sf.net/docs/E04


Thank you,

The SourceForge.net Team

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

I am not pushing, just expressed my frustration: in Feb more than a 
week, now almost a week.

Let's see if this issue will popup again in couple of months.

Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> 
> On 11.05.2006, at 19:01, Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> 
>> But i would prefer naviserver be hosted on some third party system 
>> with full access and be able to run it as web server. We do not need a 
>> lot of things: simple web pages, tracker/forum, mailing list, wiki.
>>
> 
> Vlad, WHO is going to maintain that? I'm not. I'd rather invest my time
> (or whatever I get free from daily business) to work on the server code
> instead of maintainig the website, mail-lists, RFEs bug-trackers etc pp.
> 
> I'm perhaps too paranoid, but at the moment, except for the latest
> CVS downtime, I had no problems with SF whatsoever. I believe the Tcl
> project is also there for some 5-6 years and since I'm working there
> there were absolutely no problems with SF at all.
> 
> I'm just afraid that our precious time goes in re-inveting the wheel.
> 
> Cheers,
> Zoran
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job 
> easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> naviserver-devel mailing list
> nav...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel
> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 11.05.2006, at 19:01, Vlad Seryakov wrote:

> But i would prefer naviserver be hosted on some third party system  
> with full access and be able to run it as web server. We do not  
> need a lot of things: simple web pages, tracker/forum, mailing  
> list, wiki.
>

Vlad, WHO is going to maintain that? I'm not. I'd rather invest my time
(or whatever I get free from daily business) to work on the server code
instead of maintainig the website, mail-lists, RFEs bug-trackers etc pp.

I'm perhaps too paranoid, but at the moment, except for the latest
CVS downtime, I had no problems with SF whatsoever. I believe the Tcl
project is also there for some 5-6 years and since I'm working there
there were absolutely no problems with SF at all.

I'm just afraid that our precious time goes in re-inveting the wheel.

Cheers,
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

> It's not obvious?  One, OVERHEAD.  Two, people lose interest, go away,
> or just lack time.  If those people happen to be the one's providing
> or maintaining the servers, Bad Things can happen.  It's better to
> avoid those risks if you can.

Yes, this is true, but being public, everybody can copy the whole tree 
and install it on another server with no troubles, it is not proprietary 
database or closed system nobody else have.
What it gives though, more control, full access to the system, server, 
running demo, customized website and etc.

As for keeping it running, maintaining open-source project is already 
overhead, 10-30 minutes do not make any difference.

I am not convincing for the switch but i personally do not like SF for 
being slow, not running the tools i need (naviserver for example, svn up 
until now) and bloated user interface, it is universal but it has too 
many ads and other not useful(for me) information, so  i started slowly 
loosing my patience for SF a long time now.

But i would prefer naviserver be hosted on some third party system with 
full access and be able to run it as web server. We do not need a lot of 
things: simple web pages, tracker/forum, mailing list, wiki.


-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

> It's not obvious?  One, OVERHEAD.  Two, people lose interest, go away,
> or just lack time.  If those people happen to be the one's providing
> or maintaining the servers, Bad Things can happen.  It's better to
> avoid those risks if you can.

we had a similar talk when the naviserver fork was discussed, concerning the 
website. the final decision was to use SF and a wiki, which seems a good 
solution (also I don't admire the performance sometims, but that's another 
and unimportant flamewar topic :*) If I would use it on a daily basis, maybe 
I would ask the same question like Vlad...).

> My gut feel (which could, of course, be wrong): If you're going to go
> to the trouble to convert from CVS, change to something dramatically
> better - one of the new-fangled distributed version control systems -
> not to something merely slightly better.

but in this special context, is this possible at all? does SF offer anything 
else than CVS and Subversion? If not than I interpret your listing of 
alternativ RCSystems as a vote for leaving SF :-))

and we don't work on the linux kernel, like linus :-)

> I don't find Subversion very interesting, as from reports they've
> created a great big codebase in order to obtain a rather modest
> improvement in functionality over CVS.  The distributed tools seem to
> have much more potential.  But, Subversion was ready earliest, and
> various open source projects have adopted it, so you clearly want the
> svn client available.

if you ask me whether to use CVS or SVN i don't have to think a second: SVN. 
it's for people that know CVS, are happy with most of the underlying model, 
but not with its flaws.
SVN was developed from scratch, the repository is based on Berkeley DB, you 
don't need repository access for diffs etc., a new revision number for the 
whole project after every commit, version control for directories (copy, 
move, add, delete, mkdir), transactions with rollbacks, more protocols to 
access repositories (svn, svn+ssh, file, http [apache2+webdav], https), cheap 
copy when creating branches and tags (a tag is simply a "copy" of e.g. a 
directory hierarchy using almost no space until you branch), nice handling of 
binary files (everything is "binary" and you can set/change mimetypes), 
explicit setting of keywords you want to use (like "Id").

for fun, just try "cvs2svn". or take a look here:
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/10/03/cvs-to-subversion-with-cvs2svn.html

Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Stephen D. <sd...@gm...>]

On 5/11/06, Zoran Vasiljevic <zv...@ar...> wrote:
>
> On 11.05.2006, at 17:14, Andrew Piskorski wrote:
>
> >
> > In case it's useful, here's a list I wrote up a while back, it gives
> > the names of various version control Ubuntu packages, all easily
> > installable with apt-get.  I planned to experiment with each of these,
> > but haven't gotten around to it yet:
>
> I'm impressed! I didn't have a slightest idea that there are
> so many of them!
>
> Personally, I got used to CVS. I'm not a fan of it, but it does
> its job as I expect. We use it also internally for some 10 years
> to maintain our internal code base.
>


I've been using mercurial for a while now in conjunction with cvs.  I
pull down a working copy using cvs then manage it using mercurial.

When I want to work on a patch, I can

  hg clone in/navaiserver my-naviserver

then work on my-naviserver.  I can 'hg diff' even though I'm offline.
I can commit localy if it's a large change, back things out, branch
etc.

If it's taking me a long time and cvs has been updated, I go back to
my original cvs checkout and 'cvs up'.  Then I

  hg addremove
  hg commit -m cvsup

to get those new changes into mercurial.  I can then go to any of the
mercurial clones and do a

  hg pull

and all the latest changes are merged in.  To commit back to the main
cvs repo, I just 'cvs commit' in the cloned mercurial repository then
blow it away.  Update the main checkout as above to get my new
changes, then pull them into the other clones I have going.

The advantage of this is being able to work offline, instant diffs
against the main repo, uses very little disc space as all the clones
are hard linked.

Mercurial is simillar to Git which is used for the Linux kernel now. I
believe the Xorg folks are moving to git.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 11.05.2006, at 17:14, Andrew Piskorski wrote:

>
> In case it's useful, here's a list I wrote up a while back, it gives
> the names of various version control Ubuntu packages, all easily
> installable with apt-get.  I planned to experiment with each of these,
> but haven't gotten around to it yet:

I'm impressed! I didn't have a slightest idea that there are
so many of them!

Personally, I got used to CVS. I'm not a fan of it, but it does
its job as I expect. We use it also internally for some 10 years
to maintain our internal code base.

I would really wait for SF to catch up and then judge.

Cheers
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Andrew P. <at...@pi...>]

On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 09:47:11AM -0400, Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> What is the reason for NOT SELF-HOSTING Naviserver repository?

It's not obvious?  One, OVERHEAD.  Two, people lose interest, go away,
or just lack time.  If those people happen to be the one's providing
or maintaining the servers, Bad Things can happen.  It's better to
avoid those risks if you can.

Public systems like SourceForge have several important advantages:
You don't have to DO anything to keep it running, that's someone
else's job.  It is neutral ground, equally usable by and accessible to
EVERYONE in the open source world.  It also serves as a way to FIND
projects, interact with multiple projects in a consistent way.  Etc.

> any problems and working with SVN is much better experience, in my 
> opinion the switch is worth it. Client-server model is fine here, 
> especially for small teams, if server is available from anywhere, i see 
> no problem.

CVS's centralized model is also fine, in the exact same way that
Subversion's is.  That doesn't mean it's a particularly good choice.

My gut feel (which could, of course, be wrong): If you're going to go
to the trouble to convert from CVS, change to something dramatically
better - one of the new-fangled distributed version control systems -
not to something merely slightly better.

In case it's useful, here's a list I wrote up a while back, it gives
the names of various version control Ubuntu packages, all easily
installable with apt-get.  I planned to experiment with each of these,
but haven't gotten around to it yet:
 
  tailor xxdiff meld mercurial monotone 
  darcs darcs-load-dirs darcs-buildpackage 
  subversion subversion-tools svn-buildpackage 
  bzr bazaar arch-buildpackage 
  tla tla-doc tla-load-dirs tla-tools tla-buildpackage 
 
Here's a bit of background on each of those, basically just from me
reading some docs:
 
- tailor: Converts to/from CVS and lots of other version control 
  archive formats.

- xxdiff, meld: General purpose multi-way diff and merge tools,
  supposedly good.

- mercurial ("hg"): Various Linux kernel projects (Xen, etc.) use it,
  it's supposedly very fast.  Chuck Blake likes it, says he switched
  to it from Darcs because it is easier for him to hack on (something
  about Mercurial being many fewer lines of Python than Darcs is of
  Haskell).

- darcs: Supposed to be very easy to use, but kind of slow. "Patch
  theory" to automatically determine dependence/independence of
  patches.  Written in Haskell.

- monotone: Not much info on this one but from comments it might be
  good.  Uses 3-way merge and SQLite.  D. Richard Hipp (author of
  SQLite), who seems picky, likes it the best so far.

- bazaar ("baz"): Ubuntu's fork of Arch/tla, presumably in heavy use
  for all Ubuntu packages.  Supposedly somewhat cleaned up command set
  compared to tla, but it's still Arch.  Same wire format as tla so
  they can inter-operate.

- bzr: The next-generation Bazaar for Ubuntu, re-implemented in Python
  rather than C.  I don't think Ubuntu has switched yet from baz to
  bzr but I'm not sure.

- tla ("Tom Lord's Arch"): The standard Gnu Arch implementation in
  C.  Reputation for being unnecessarily complicated to use, although
  people like it anyway.  (If you have baz installed, do you need tla
  for any reason?  Dunno.)

- subversion ("svn"): Centralized version control system (all the ones
  above are distributed), intended to be like CVS but with fewer
  flaws.  R uses it.

I don't find Subversion very interesting, as from reports they've
created a great big codebase in order to obtain a rather modest
improvement in functionality over CVS.  The distributed tools seem to
have much more potential.  But, Subversion was ready earliest, and
various open source projects have adopted it, so you clearly want the
svn client available.

There is also "svk", which is a distributed VCS implemented in Perl on
top of Subversion.  I know little about it, but the idea sounds kludgy
to me.

--
Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...>
http://www.piskorski.com/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

What is the reason for NOT SELF-HOSTING Naviserver repository?

Working with multiple hosting providers i can tell from my experience 
that their solutions are not better or more reliable than well-thought 
server setup that is installed in any datacenter. As SF shows, disk 
failure can bring down the whole system with days of repair time. And 
this is not the first time, looks like their disaster plans are not well 
prepared.

As for SVN, we switched our production system about year ago, without 
any problems and working with SVN is much better experience, in my 
opinion the switch is worth it. Client-server model is fine here, 
especially for small teams, if server is available from anywhere, i see 
no problem.

Andrew Piskorski wrote:
> On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 07:48:37AM +0200, Bernd Eidenschink wrote:
> 
>>>> Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe?
>> with subversion, do you think of just changing from CVS to the revision 
>> control system "subversion" or to another server with CVS/subversion?
>>
>> Looks like the subversion RCS had less outages on SF than CVS, but this might 
>> just be because of less users using subversion on SF.
> 
> Switching from CVS to Subversion solely because, at the moment,
> SourceForge seems to have better uptime on their Subversion than their
> CVS servers makes no sense at all.
> 
> For those interested in such things, I recommend checking the Tcl Core
> list, they are currently discussing exactly these SourceForge issues,
> planning their "escape plan" from SourceForge in case that should
> become necessary, whether they should switch from CVS and if so to
> what, etc.  I agree entirely with what D. Richard Hipp said here:
> 
>   http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/tcl-core/3124041
> 
> However, Naviserver has a MUCH smaller project team than Tcl,
> therefore Naviserver should be much more reluctant to move from a free
> hosted service like SourceForge onto self-maintained servers.  In
> fact, I would not recommend self-hosting for Naviserver AT ALL (except
> for backup).
> 
> But if there are some other SourceForge-like services, that would be
> worth looking into, at least as a fallback in case SF's service gets
> worse rather than better.  Surely there are many, many other folks in
> the same boat though, I wonder what they think?
> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Andrew P. <at...@pi...>]

On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 07:48:37AM +0200, Bernd Eidenschink wrote:

> > > Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe?
> 
> with subversion, do you think of just changing from CVS to the revision 
> control system "subversion" or to another server with CVS/subversion?
> 
> Looks like the subversion RCS had less outages on SF than CVS, but this might 
> just be because of less users using subversion on SF.

Switching from CVS to Subversion solely because, at the moment,
SourceForge seems to have better uptime on their Subversion than their
CVS servers makes no sense at all.

For those interested in such things, I recommend checking the Tcl Core
list, they are currently discussing exactly these SourceForge issues,
planning their "escape plan" from SourceForge in case that should
become necessary, whether they should switch from CVS and if so to
what, etc.  I agree entirely with what D. Richard Hipp said here:

  http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/tcl-core/3124041

However, Naviserver has a MUCH smaller project team than Tcl,
therefore Naviserver should be much more reluctant to move from a free
hosted service like SourceForge onto self-maintained servers.  In
fact, I would not recommend self-hosting for Naviserver AT ALL (except
for backup).

But if there are some other SourceForge-like services, that would be
worth looking into, at least as a fallback in case SF's service gets
worse rather than better.  Surely there are many, many other folks in
the same boat though, I wonder what they think?

-- 
Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...>
http://www.piskorski.com/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Bernd E. <b.e...@ki...>]

Hi Vlad,

> > Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe?

with subversion, do you think of just changing from CVS to the revision 
control system "subversion" or to another server with CVS/subversion?

Looks like the subversion RCS had less outages on SF than CVS, but this might 
just be because of less users using subversion on SF.

We switched to subversion internally when it reached version 1.0 and never 
regret it. Moving repository files to a subversion repository is relatively 
easy with not too complicated repositories, but to be honest: never change a 
running system. We have still a lot of CVS repositories we will not touch.

Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

I agree, it is more than just CVS, but it looks like my tolerance level 
is much lower than yours:-)))

Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> 
> On 10.05.2006, at 17:52, Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> 
>> Oh, i do not know, i am asking in general, hosting can be found or i 
>> can offer one of my servers that is in the data center.
> 
> The repository alone is not the only issue, althogh this can be
> pretty ugly when you cannot checkout because SF is down.
> OTOH, the services offered by SF are very valuable and my tolerance
> limit in that respect is pretty high. Eventually they (SF) will
> get it under control...
> 
> Cheers
> Zoran
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job 
> easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> naviserver-devel mailing list
> nav...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel
> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 10.05.2006, at 17:52, Vlad Seryakov wrote:

> Oh, i do not know, i am asking in general, hosting can be found or  
> i can offer one of my servers that is in the data center.

The repository alone is not the only issue, althogh this can be
pretty ugly when you cannot checkout because SF is down.
OTOH, the services offered by SF are very valuable and my tolerance
limit in that respect is pretty high. Eventually they (SF) will
get it under control...

Cheers
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

Oh, i do not know, i am asking in general, hosting can be found or i can 
offer one of my servers that is in the data center.

Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> 
> On 10.05.2006, at 17:43, Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> 
>>
>> How do you feel about SF lately, this year i got impression it is was 
>> more down then up and getting slower and slower.
>>
>> Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe?
> 
> Where is that? Does it also offer comparable services for free?
> Zoran
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job 
> easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> naviserver-devel mailing list
> nav...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel
> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 10.05.2006, at 17:43, Vlad Seryakov wrote:

>
> How do you feel about SF lately, this year i got impression it is  
> was more down then up and getting slower and slower.
>
> Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe?

Where is that? Does it also offer comparable services for free?
Zoran

[naviserver-devel] Sourceforge again

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

hi guys,

How do you feel about SF lately, this year i got impression it is was 
more down then up and getting slower and slower.

Is it worth considering alternative server, subversion maybe?


-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] cache broken

[Stephen D. <sd...@gm...>]

On 5/3/06, Zoran Vasiljevic <zv...@ar...> wrote:
>
> On 03.05.2006, at 20:56, Stephen Deasey wrote:
>
> >
> > Can you write a test that fails?
>
> This is a very good question.... I do not know.


Well, give it a shot then. :-)

The bug is fixed when the test stops failing.


> I know the app breaks which worked with older + newer
> cache code up to that version... I do not do anything
> really weird there... just ns_cache_eval.
>
> What is the change you did really after?


Looks like it's just making sure the default ttl from the cache is
used (if specified) if a specific ttl isn't given.  This is not the
same as the timeout, which is the time one thread will wait for
another thread to fill in a cache entry, should two or more try to
update an entry at once.

It's the later that gives the error message your getting, so I don't
think the code you've quoted above is the problem.