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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-09-07 00:47:27
|
I ran wget against panoptic WIki and post-processed html files into wiki_html, only content is extracted(thanks to well formatted Wiki source) http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/nsdocs/ It is html, but this is the newest API and some other useful information, combined with official old aolserver docs from CVS a good set of docs can be produced. The question is: is it worth the effort to convert it into doctools format? -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Stephen D. <sd...@gm...> - 2006-09-06 21:30:34
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On 9/6/06, Vlad Seryakov <vl...@cr...> wrote: > > > > Is there a script which will convert the existing man pages to > > doctools format? We can't be the first people to ever have done this. > > May be it makes sense to use API docs from panoptic Wiki, it has most > recent documentation and ignore old nroff files at all? If they're more uptodate, then sure. It would be nice to automate the initial conversion though. It would be such a great jumpstart that filling in the rest will be a piece of cake :-) |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-09-06 21:28:47
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> > Is there a script which will convert the existing man pages to > doctools format? We can't be the first people to ever have done this. May be it makes sense to use API docs from panoptic Wiki, it has most recent documentation and ignore old nroff files at all? -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-09-06 21:24:15
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agree, having only one place and way of writing documentation will provide no barriers for updating it, just laziness or lack of time :-)) Stephen Deasey wrote: > On 9/5/06, Zoran Vasiljevic <zv...@ar...> wrote: >> On 05.09.2006, at 19:07, Bernd Eidenschink wrote: >> >>> http://wiki2man.sourceforge.net/ >> Almost (although you are right)! What we need is >> wiki->doctools man-pages not nroff man pages. >> (what a stupid naming mess !!!) >> >> I wonder if there is a wiki->doctools as I know >> there is doctools->wiki converter... > > > If someone adds some Makefile magic to generate nroff and HTML from > the doctools source, I'll set up sourceforge to auto generate the HTML > straight from CVS and make it available on the website. > > There's a script in there now which creates symbolic links for all the > commands embedded in a singe file, so if foo, bar, and baz are all > documented in the foo.man file, you can still access bar and baz > directly via 'man bar' etc. Does doctools support anything like this? > > We can add some wiki-macros so that whenever you type [proc ns_foo] it > creates a link to /doc/ns_foo.html (or wherever). > > If the API doc is always automatically uptodate on the website then > that can be the single canonical location to find everything. > > > Is there a script which will convert the existing man pages to > doctools format? We can't be the first people to ever have done this. > > If we can convert the existing stuff, then strip out the > old/deprecated APIs and stubb out the new ones, I think finding time > to sit down and write something will be much easier. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Stephen D. <sd...@gm...> - 2006-09-06 21:16:01
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On 9/5/06, Zoran Vasiljevic <zv...@ar...> wrote: > > On 05.09.2006, at 19:07, Bernd Eidenschink wrote: > > > > > http://wiki2man.sourceforge.net/ > > Almost (although you are right)! What we need is > wiki->doctools man-pages not nroff man pages. > (what a stupid naming mess !!!) > > I wonder if there is a wiki->doctools as I know > there is doctools->wiki converter... If someone adds some Makefile magic to generate nroff and HTML from the doctools source, I'll set up sourceforge to auto generate the HTML straight from CVS and make it available on the website. There's a script in there now which creates symbolic links for all the commands embedded in a singe file, so if foo, bar, and baz are all documented in the foo.man file, you can still access bar and baz directly via 'man bar' etc. Does doctools support anything like this? We can add some wiki-macros so that whenever you type [proc ns_foo] it creates a link to /doc/ns_foo.html (or wherever). If the API doc is always automatically uptodate on the website then that can be the single canonical location to find everything. Is there a script which will convert the existing man pages to doctools format? We can't be the first people to ever have done this. If we can convert the existing stuff, then strip out the old/deprecated APIs and stubb out the new ones, I think finding time to sit down and write something will be much easier. |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-09-06 19:13:13
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Not sure about other places Zoran Vasiljevic wrote: > On 06.09.2006, at 19:17, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > >> If you listen on 0.0.0.0 then it does not matter what IP address is or >> changed, it will accept it anyway, i used to run nsd on my home >> computer >> with frequently changing dynamic IP, no problem. >> Never tried sleep mode though. > > Great! This is good news. So I will have to see how > the sleep mode effects scheduler and the rest of the > code. > > What I found with the IP addresses is that [ns_info address] > still returns the address got at the time of boot. I do not > know if there are other places where environment-related things > are read only once... Do you perhaps have a (broad) idea if > there are (other) such places? > > Cheers > Zoran > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-09-06 18:48:06
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On 06.09.2006, at 19:17, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > If you listen on 0.0.0.0 then it does not matter what IP address is or > changed, it will accept it anyway, i used to run nsd on my home > computer > with frequently changing dynamic IP, no problem. > Never tried sleep mode though. Great! This is good news. So I will have to see how the sleep mode effects scheduler and the rest of the code. What I found with the IP addresses is that [ns_info address] still returns the address got at the time of boot. I do not know if there are other places where environment-related things are read only once... Do you perhaps have a (broad) idea if there are (other) such places? Cheers Zoran |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-09-06 17:17:41
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If you listen on 0.0.0.0 then it does not matter what IP address is or changed, it will accept it anyway, i used to run nsd on my home computer with frequently changing dynamic IP, no problem. Never tried sleep mode though. Zoran Vasiljevic wrote: > Hi! > > Did anybody played with an idea to have nsd running > on a portable, whose IP address changes from time to > time WHILE the process is running? > And that the computer may go sleep for some hours and > then wake up again? > > Would that be possible? If not what do we need to do > to make it possible? > > Cheers, > Zoran > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-09-06 17:12:01
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Hi! Did anybody played with an idea to have nsd running on a portable, whose IP address changes from time to time WHILE the process is running? And that the computer may go sleep for some hours and then wake up again? Would that be possible? If not what do we need to do to make it possible? Cheers, Zoran |
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From: Gustaf N. <ne...@wu...> - 2006-09-06 07:50:50
|
Bernd Eidenschink schrieb:
> I really respect the whole Wiki thing for what it created (Wikipedia et al),
> but I don't like the technology. The surprising part for me is how much
> success a project can have if people don't need a password to contribute...
>
maybe an option is to look at xowiki:
to address some of the items mentioned here so far:
- it is php-free
- implements various security policies (some pages can be made public
modifyable, others
are modifiably only for some developers)
- it has already some converters (e.g. from man format or from
doc-book generated HTML)
see the import/export section towards the end of the documentation
below)
- keeps versions in the content repository
- to add automatic conversion via dtplite should be straightworward
(keep revisions
of the dtplite sources in the content repository, generate html on
the fly)
- has full text search, categories, notifications, rss, glossary,
file/image support....
(some of these are inherited from openacs)
http://media.wu-wien.ac.at/download/xowiki-doc/
see it in action: http://openacs.org/xowiki/
available from the oacs cvs repository
-gustaf
|
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-09-05 17:06:49
|
On 05.09.2006, at 19:07, Bernd Eidenschink wrote: > > http://wiki2man.sourceforge.net/ Almost (although you are right)! What we need is wiki->doctools man-pages not nroff man pages. (what a stupid naming mess !!!) I wonder if there is a wiki->doctools as I know there is doctools->wiki converter... Cheers Zoran |
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From: Bernd E. <eid...@we...> - 2006-09-05 17:03:57
|
> Too bad guys didn't invent a wiki->man converter! I wonder if it > would make sense to write one... > > As the matter of fact this could be fairly easy task: > cut the text from Wiki html page, paste into template. > There you go! > This way I can even achieve 4 commands per month effectively > reducing our effort to about 1/2 year :-) http://wiki2man.sourceforge.net/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-09-05 16:34:12
|
On 05.09.2006, at 18:22, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > Also, AS wiki already has documented almost every command, so we can > shamelessly borrow from there and import to our docs with corrections. Allright. Be it then. So it is the proven cut/paste technology ;-) Too bad guys didn't invent a wiki->man converter! I wonder if it would make sense to write one... As the matter of fact this could be fairly easy task: cut the text from Wiki html page, paste into template. There you go! This way I can even achieve 4 commands per month effectively reducing our effort to about 1/2 year :-) Very nice. Cheers, Zoran |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-09-05 16:23:11
|
Also, AS wiki already has documented almost every command, so we can shamelessly borrow from there and import to our docs with corrections. Zoran Vasiljevic wrote: > On 05.09.2006, at 17:41, Bernd Eidenschink wrote: > >> of course. therefore my suggestion to make a list and ask who wants >> to grab >> what command. 1 per month per developer should be possible and next >> year, >> same time, we are nearly done :-) >> > > If you ask me, I can push the average on about 4 commands per month > (one each week roughly). With a proper self-discipline (I would not > count on that) this can be elevated to perhaps a double (2 per week). > If we count *active* commiters, this yields 4. 4 * 4 = 16 cmds per > month and this is about 192 commands per year. > > Now: > > llength [info comman ns_*] > 204 > > This means we've rougly finished in 1 year. This is totally > realistic, provided EVERYBODY remains consistent on the average. > > As you are the Wiki expert (hehe) you can add a page with all > this commands listed and everybody can edit this page writing > his name next to command he's currently doing. This way I can > pick-up a "orphan" command, put my name there and start to work > w/o need to pickup list of commands in advance. > > Cheers > Zoran > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Bernd E. <eid...@we...> - 2006-09-05 16:22:57
|
> As you are the Wiki expert (hehe) Oh, please don't call me that ;-) I really respect the whole Wiki thing for what it created (Wikipedia et al), but I don't like the technology. The surprising part for me is how much success a project can have if people don't need a password to contribute... > you can add a page with all > this commands listed and everybody can edit this page writing > his name next to command he's currently doing. This way I can > pick-up a "orphan" command, put my name there and start to work > w/o need to pickup list of commands in advance. A rough list: http://naviserver.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Examples:Commands Bernd. |
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From: Bernd E. <eid...@we...> - 2006-09-05 16:07:11
|
> Concerns: > > 1) SF Wiki, this is my big concern, slow, no way to easily correct, need > to login, how to download original source to keep in CVS for example > > 2) I would like to generate Wiki from source files, from doctools, if we > have all command as .man files, we can easily generate Wiki page similar > to AS wiki on panoptic.com (BTW, this is good source of docs as well) I don't think the Wiki is so good for storing the documentation, because people can and should add to it and change things at everytime. It's good for HowTos and things like that. Would you overwrite changes with the export? Or freeze the Wiki-doc and "port " changes into existing documentation source? Is there a way to import the dtplite-created wiki files into the wiki at all? (In a way links and references work)? I would vote for creating a simple bunch of HTML files from the doctools, place the HTML on the webspace and link to it from the Wiki. Bernd. |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-09-05 16:02:38
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On 05.09.2006, at 17:41, Bernd Eidenschink wrote: > > of course. therefore my suggestion to make a list and ask who wants > to grab > what command. 1 per month per developer should be possible and next > year, > same time, we are nearly done :-) > If you ask me, I can push the average on about 4 commands per month (one each week roughly). With a proper self-discipline (I would not count on that) this can be elevated to perhaps a double (2 per week). If we count *active* commiters, this yields 4. 4 * 4 = 16 cmds per month and this is about 192 commands per year. Now: llength [info comman ns_*] 204 This means we've rougly finished in 1 year. This is totally realistic, provided EVERYBODY remains consistent on the average. As you are the Wiki expert (hehe) you can add a page with all this commands listed and everybody can edit this page writing his name next to command he's currently doing. This way I can pick-up a "orphan" command, put my name there and start to work w/o need to pickup list of commands in advance. Cheers Zoran |
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From: Bernd E. <b.e...@ki...> - 2006-09-05 15:53:25
|
> If you look at the nsproxy directory, you will find a > man-page written in doctools. You can use dtplite to > translate it to html on nroff. yes, I know the file! you did a good example for adding a new command along with it's documentation. my first try with doctools was ns_sendmail command and an example for conversions (README.doc), found in doc/src/. > And for the c. it is actualy writing a bare-bones template > doctools file for each of the ns_xxx commands. This could > be a 1/2 hour job and can be automated. > > The "tough" part remains though... EVERYBODY would need to > contribute to adding content (either by stealing it or > inventing it new). of course. therefore my suggestion to make a list and ask who wants to grab what command. 1 per month per developer should be possible and next year, same time, we are nearly done :-) Bernd. |
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From: Bernd E. <eid...@we...> - 2006-09-05 15:53:25
|
Two questions concerning the Wiki: 1. How are Backups done for the Wiki at the moment? Should more and more content be put to it, can we automate it (data from MySQL etc.) if not already done? 2. There is lot of discussion about limiting access to Wikis at the moment. Can we jump on the train and limit access to people that ask for it? I remove SPAM from time to time and it's annoying. I can't ignore the SPAM either, I'm Monk ;-) Bernd. |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-09-05 15:49:55
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> > Yes. This is what I'd do in Wiki. After all the Wikipeida does much more > content that we'd do in 1000 lives, yet still all is done in Wiki > (amazing, isn't it?). > >> I found in my hard drive old circa 2002 aolserver docs, including C- >> API, >> Tcl-API and other overviews. Not bad documentation and still >> apllies to >> naviserver as well. It is html already, converting it to doctool does >> not make sense but not using it does not make sense for me either. And >> correting these old docs is not that hard, the question is: where >> we put >> it? CVS? SF mane page? Wiki? > > Wiki. But how we can put existing docs into Wiki, i guess starting from the scratch is very frightening(at least for me) >> For the problem where do i start: man pages or Wiki or another >> document, >> too many different ways and still it will be kept in pieces in >> different >> places. > > Both :-) > We (I'm afraid to say I) can start ref-doc immediately and > never finish (i.e. we just add content as we *can*). > > The "bad" thing about the other (Wiki) is: it just takes > lots of time! I personaly can add to the ref docs by > filling in the man pages but I can't write top-level > overview type of docs. I just have no time for that. Yes, SF Wiki site is so slow, almost unusable, not even for developer but for regular users as well So, to do: 1) Making templates for all Tcl commands, i.e. creating .man files 2) Converting existing .n pages into .man files 3) Importing/collecting all existing docs about AS and NS 4) Create top level structure and put all docs there or links . . ... slowly adding stuff ... . Concerns: 1) SF Wiki, this is my big concern, slow, no way to easily correct, need to login, how to download original source to keep in CVS for example 2) I would like to generate Wiki from source files, from doctools, if we have all command as .man files, we can easily generate Wiki page similar to AS wiki on panoptic.com (BTW, this is good source of docs as well) -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-09-05 15:36:06
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On 05.09.2006, at 17:24, Vlad Seryakov wrote: > b. is doctools i suppose, format is simple enough and has many formats > to convert. I would wote for that. > > documenting commands is okay, but man pages are needed to those who > already developing something and knows what to look for. Top level > docs, > like overviews, guides and manuals will make documentaion user > friendly. Yes. This is what I'd do in Wiki. After all the Wikipeida does much more content that we'd do in 1000 lives, yet still all is done in Wiki (amazing, isn't it?). > I found in my hard drive old circa 2002 aolserver docs, including C- > API, > Tcl-API and other overviews. Not bad documentation and still > apllies to > naviserver as well. It is html already, converting it to doctool does > not make sense but not using it does not make sense for me either. And > correting these old docs is not that hard, the question is: where > we put > it? CVS? SF mane page? Wiki? Wiki. > > For the problem where do i start: man pages or Wiki or another > document, > too many different ways and still it will be kept in pieces in > different > places. Both :-) We (I'm afraid to say I) can start ref-doc immediately and never finish (i.e. we just add content as we *can*). The "bad" thing about the other (Wiki) is: it just takes lots of time! I personaly can add to the ref docs by filling in the man pages but I can't write top-level overview type of docs. I just have no time for that. OTOH, I would be more than happy if we just manage to get the Tcl API completely documented! Cheers Zoran |
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From: Vlad S. <vl...@cr...> - 2006-09-05 15:25:15
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b. is doctools i suppose, format is simple enough and has many formats to convert. documenting commands is okay, but man pages are needed to those who already developing something and knows what to look for. Top level docs, like overviews, guides and manuals will make documentaion user friendly. I found in my hard drive old circa 2002 aolserver docs, including C-API, Tcl-API and other overviews. Not bad documentation and still apllies to naviserver as well. It is html already, converting it to doctool does not make sense but not using it does not make sense for me either. And correting these old docs is not that hard, the question is: where we put it? CVS? SF mane page? Wiki? For the problem where do i start: man pages or Wiki or another document, too many different ways and still it will be kept in pieces in different places. Bernd Eidenschink wrote: >> ... so it is the attitude and not format that we're fighting with. >> And given the low(est possible) attitude we need to make it as >> simple as possible. > > correct! > >> b. we whould employ some stupid and easy format everybody can >> handle which >> is capable of expressing enough formatting rules so we can get >> a decent >> looking nroff and/or html >> >> c. we should start adding (by copying or writing new) content to >> those templates. >> >> Without b. and c. we will have no usable documentation! > > if we have (b) we can organize (c). we would create (d) a list of what we want > to document and volunteer for the commands we are able to document (as some > brand new commands clearly belong to a certain developer. who is fast grabs > the existing old ones and just updates them :-)). > > So, the next step is (b)... > > Bernd. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > naviserver-devel mailing list > nav...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel > -- Vlad Seryakov 571 262-8608 office vl...@cr... http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/ |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-09-05 15:18:53
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On 05.09.2006, at 17:12, Bernd Eidenschink wrote: > > So, the next step is (b)... If you look at the nsproxy directory, you will find a man-page written in doctools. You can use dtplite to translate it to html on nroff. And for the c. it is actualy writing a bare-bones template doctools file for each of the ns_xxx commands. This could be a 1/2 hour job and can be automated. The "tough" part remains though... EVERYBODY would need to contribute to adding content (either by stealing it or inventing it new). Zoran |
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From: Bernd E. <eid...@we...> - 2006-09-05 15:08:13
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> ... so it is the attitude and not format that we're fighting with. > And given the low(est possible) attitude we need to make it as > simple as possible. correct! > b. we whould employ some stupid and easy format everybody can > handle which > is capable of expressing enough formatting rules so we can get > a decent > looking nroff and/or html > > c. we should start adding (by copying or writing new) content to > those templates. > > Without b. and c. we will have no usable documentation! if we have (b) we can organize (c). we would create (d) a list of what we want to document and volunteer for the commands we are able to document (as some brand new commands clearly belong to a certain developer. who is fast grabs the existing old ones and just updates them :-)). So, the next step is (b)... Bernd. |
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From: Zoran V. <zv...@ar...> - 2006-09-05 14:39:43
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On 05.09.2006, at 16:28, Bernd Eidenschink wrote:
> The general problem is: We don't _want_ to write documentation. Not
> for man
> pages and not for the Wiki.
... so it is the attitude and not format that we're fighting with.
And given the low(est possible) attitude we need to make it as
simple as possible.
For long time I wanted to create a set of templates for each and
every ns_xxxxx command for somebody (even myself) to start adding
some content there. Because, without adding content to whatever
formated file, there will be no docs.
And by just lumping together all available html into one place,
you just "organize a disorder" creating even more disorder.
If we want to have documentation:
a. we should split techical ref from howto (as stephen correctly
pointed out)
(the b. to c. below handle only the former)
b. we whould employ some stupid and easy format everybody can
handle which
is capable of expressing enough formatting rules so we can get
a decent
looking nroff and/or html
c. we should start adding (by copying or writing new) content to
those templates.
Without b. and c. we will have no usable documentation!
I totally neglected the C-API so far as this is "roughly" collectable by
gathering function level comments for Ns_XXXX functions from C-sources.
OTOH, the Tcl API isn't.
Cheers
Zoran
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