naviserver-devel — Developer discussion

Re: [naviserver-devel] hosting java-script server-side?

[Mike <nee...@gm...>]

On 9/17/06, Zoran Vasiljevic <zv...@ar...> wrote:
> Following a recent discussion on the sister-project, I just wanted
> to check what would you think about integrating javascript as an
> alternate language to Tcl ?
>
> I'm long time user of Tcl (over 12 years) and I still preffer it
> to any other scripting language, buI I see that most of the
> younger people are actually already fluent in javascript
> whereas they are not fluent in (mostly even do not know about) Tcl.
>
> This is at the moment not an issue for us but it may be one in the
> future....
>
> I do not know what would need to be done and to what extent a
> "foreign" language could/should be integrated in the server;
> I just wanted to hear what people would think about this.

Vote: -1
Explanation: waste of time

Of the vast sea of scripting languages out there, I am most fluent in
Tcl and Javascript.  I consider both very good languages (with Tcl
having a slight edge).  If NaviServer's underlying language was
JavaScript - I wouldn't complain.  But it isn't.  It's Tcl.
In the end, a programming language is just a tool.  Unless it's
absolutely horrendous (e.g. php or csh) there's no real reason to
switch other than a time-consuming exercise.  Adding more language
bindings is just going add complexity and require more maintenance,
take developer time, and have very few benefits.  If someone is
serious about using a tool, they will learn the language - and Tcl is
not a bad language to learn.
That's purely language-specific.  Now, for the Javascript technical
part.  Tcl is deeply rooted in NaviServer code - trying to stick
another language's interface in is just not going to be an easy task.
Furthermore, there is no "one good and supported" Javascript
interpreter.  Most of them have problems - the the "more maintained"
ones having more problems and bloat than the less maintained ones
(double-edged sword).  If you really insist on going down this path,
my recommendation would be to look at the Tcl binding that was created
for BrowseX...  Alas, that interpreter falls into the "less
maintained" category.

Re: [naviserver-devel] hosting java-script server-side?

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

Creating it as a module similar to php is possible, pretty easy, but 
integrating into the core may not be without re-designing it.

May be creating virtual interpreter in the core and then have different 
plugins for real languages but this is a lot of work.

Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> Hi !
> 
> Following a recent discussion on the sister-project, I just wanted
> to check what would you think about integrating javascript as an
> alternate language to Tcl ?
> 
> I'm long time user of Tcl (over 12 years) and I still preffer it
> to any other scripting language, buI I see that most of the
> younger people are actually already fluent in javascript
> whereas they are not fluent in (mostly even do not know about) Tcl.
> 
> This is at the moment not an issue for us but it may be one in the
> future....
> 
> I do not know what would need to be done and to what extent a
> "foreign" language could/should be integrated in the server;
> I just wanted to hear what people would think about this.
> 
> Cheers,
> Zoran
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> naviserver-devel mailing list
> nav...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel
> 


-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

[naviserver-devel] hosting java-script server-side?

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

Hi !

Following a recent discussion on the sister-project, I just wanted
to check what would you think about integrating javascript as an
alternate language to Tcl ?

I'm long time user of Tcl (over 12 years) and I still preffer it
to any other scripting language, buI I see that most of the
younger people are actually already fluent in javascript
whereas they are not fluent in (mostly even do not know about) Tcl.

This is at the moment not an issue for us but it may be one in the
future....

I do not know what would need to be done and to what extent a
"foreign" language could/should be integrated in the server;
I just wanted to hear what people would think about this.

Cheers,
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy revisited

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 16.09.2006, at 06:40, Ibrahim Tannir wrote:

> So a porting guide is is becoming necessary (?).

Perhaps... but at this point we have no need for that, yet.
I just wanted to stress that such thing will be inevitable
in the future.

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy revisited

[Ibrahim T. <it...@ar...>]

So a porting guide is is becoming necessary (?).

-Ibrahim

> Unrelatred:
> We are now pretty much drifting away in terms of functionality
> and API from our sister project, but nothing is for free. I guess
> we are pretty different in other areas so people eventually moving
> to our platform will have quite a bit of work to do...
> Not that I have a problem with that, but we have to keep this in
> mind.
> 
> Cheers,
> Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy revisited

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 14.09.2006, at 22:30, Vlad Seryakov wrote:

> yes,per pool is safer

Allright. All is done and checked in. The ns_proxy.man is
also updated accordingly.

Unrelatred:
We are now pretty much drifting away in terms of functionality
and API from our sister project, but nothing is for free. I guess
we are pretty different in other areas so people eventually moving
to our platform will have quite a bit of work to do...
Not that I have a problem with that, but we have to keep this in
mind.

Cheers,
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 15.09.2006, at 18:41, Rick Cobb wrote:

>
> Been there, done that, shredded the t-shirt in the dryer --

I'm absolutely convinced!

Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Rick C. <rc...@Kn...>]

Uh, I don't feel real strongly about this, but I'd recommend against it.
I worked for a company (now long absorbed into a much larger company)
which named all of its products with lower case letters at the beginning
(uh, and I was the guy who suggested it :-/).  While it made the logos
stand out, and the brochures, etc., were fine, it made it *very*
difficult on people reviewing our products in print publications, and
looked funny in documentation.  Once you do this in the logo, then
you'll find people trying to stay consistent with it in the docs, so
you'll see things like:

"We found installing the product straightforward. naviServer provides a
simple configuration script..." or "TCL initialization proceeds in four
steps: (1) naviServer creates a single interpreter for processing the
TCL configuration files...".

That's hard on spell/grammar checkers, makes editors cringe, and causes
delays in getting good press -- which sometimes means not getting press
at all.

It also means answering questions about "what's the best way to spell
this" forever in your forums.

Been there, done that, shredded the t-shirt in the dryer --
-- ReC

-----Original Message-----
From: nav...@li...
[mailto:nav...@li...] On Behalf Of
Zoran Vasiljevic
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:38 AM
To: nav...@li...
Subject: Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff


On 15.09.2006, at 15:35, Vlad Seryakov wrote:

> We use ns_ prefix which means N and S should be capitalized in
> NaviServer i guess
>

I know... but: why not stepping out of the circle?
This is all marketing. I'm wondering how would:

   naviServer

look like!



------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
easier
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
Geronimo
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121642
_______________________________________________
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nav...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel

Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

> > We use ns_ prefix which means N and S should be capitalized in
> > NaviServer i guess
>
> I know... but: why not stepping out of the circle?
> This is all marketing. I'm wondering how would:
>
>    naviServer
>
> look like!

My colleague is out of the office right now, but I'll ask him for 
the "n"aviServer example asap!

Bernd.

(I also like the bordered version more) 

Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 15.09.2006, at 15:35, Vlad Seryakov wrote:

> We use ns_ prefix which means N and S should be capitalized in
> NaviServer i guess
>

I know... but: why not stepping out of the circle?
This is all marketing. I'm wondering how would:

   naviServer

look like!

Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

We use ns_ prefix which means N and S should be capitalized in 
NaviServer i guess

Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> On 15.09.2006, at 14:10, Bernd Eidenschink wrote:
> 
>> <naviserver_gross_rahmen_gra.gif>
> 
> What about
> 
>   naviServer
> 
> instead of
> 
>   NaviServer
> 
> ?
> 
> How would this look like?
> 
> (BTW I like the things with borders better).
> 
> Cheers
> Zoran
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> naviserver-devel mailing list
> nav...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel
> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 15.09.2006, at 14:10, Bernd Eidenschink wrote:

> <naviserver_gross_rahmen_gra.gif>

What about

  naviServer

instead of

  NaviServer

?

How would this look like?

(BTW I like the things with borders better).

Cheers
Zoran

Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

Borders version looks better IMHO

Bernd Eidenschink wrote:
>> just a quick shot to make the web nicer, what do you think?
> 
> and some variations with borders.
> 
> Bernd.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> naviserver-devel mailing list
> nav...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

> just a quick shot to make the web nicer, what do you think?

and some variations with borders.

Bernd.

[naviserver-devel] Devotional stuff

[Bernd E. <eid...@we...>]

Hi there,

just a quick shot to make the web nicer, what do you think?

See attachments.

Bernd.

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy revisited

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 15.09.2006, at 08:23, Gustaf Neumann wrote:

>
> On a power5+ with linux and gcc, int stays at 32bit even with 64bit  
> code.

Yes, this is what I also read everywhere. The int should stay 32bit
even on 64bit boxes otherwise the porting effort might be a
nightmare for just about everybody.

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy revisited

[Gustaf N. <ne...@wu...>]

On a power5+ with linux and gcc, int stays at 32bit even with 64bit code.
-gustaf


----------- default compilation
% cc     t.c   -o t
% file t
t: ELF 32-bit MSB executable, PowerPC or cisco 4500, version 1 (SYSV), 
for GNU/Linux 2.2.5, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped

% ./t
int: 4
ptr: 4
long: 4
long long: 8
short: 2

----------- 64 bit
% cc -m64    t.c   -o t
% file t
t: ELF 64-bit MSB executable, cisco 7500, version 1 (SYSV), for 
GNU/Linux 2.4.19, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped
% ./t
int: 4
ptr: 8
long: 8
long long: 8
short: 2



Zoran Vasiljevic schrieb:
> On 14.09.2006, at 22:13, Stephen Deasey wrote:
>
> Yes. Normally (what is normal today?) on a 64 bit box/compiler:
> int = 32
> ptr = 64
> long long = 64
> long = 64 (this I'm not sure)
> short = 16
>
>   

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy crash

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 14.09.2006, at 23:02, Stephen Deasey wrote:

>
> AtShutdown callbacks are called twice:  the first time is to allow you
> to notify threads that they should begin cleaning up for shutdown; the
> second time you should actually wait for the shutdown to complete,
> taking note of the absolute timeout value.
>
> Look at some of the existing code that handles this.  There's 3 or 4
> AtShutdown procs in the core.
>
> The interface is kind of ugly, I agree.  I always have to look up what
> I'm supposed to do.  Suggestions appreciated!

Well, no suggestions. It is rather simple:
either you pass the toutPtr in which case you need to wait
or yout pass NULL in which case you prepare for waiting.
This w=F3rks now.  I will keep this in mind.

Re: [naviserver-devel] Second set of documentation

[Stephen D. <sd...@gm...>]

On 9/9/06, Vlad Seryakov <vl...@cr...> wrote:
> >
> > Wow! It is great to see how much you (and Bernd)
> > have done in so little time... Congratulations!
> >
>
> This is what we can base our documentation on, the question is: do we
> convert it into doctools or keep as html?
>

Or put it in a wiki.

API references are one kind of documentation.  Sadly, it seems it
really has to be written by programmers.  If the docs are to have any
true insight, the writer has to be able to read C code fluently.

It makes perfect sense to keep this kind of document in CVS.  Either
the API doc accurately reflects the code it is bundled with, or it
does not. The two should be in sync, and are written by the same
people.

Then there's the other stuff.  It's higher level, it crosses the
boundaries of many APIs, and unlike the API docs some of it can be a
matter of perspective.  This really needs to be as inclusive and as
low-barrier as possible.  CVS is just too much effort for this.  It's
not *that* hard, but the barrier doesn't have to be very high before
people just won't bother.  Hey, we're all busy and lazy, right?

Assuming a wiki, there's still the question of which one.  I think
I've convinced myself that the Tcl wiki is a good idea.  I think we
(people on the 'Net in general) have reached a point where it's not
'cool' any more to have your own domain name, run your own services
etc. -- you go where the people are.  You want to talk photography?
Post your photos to flickr.

I added the simple place-holder page about naviserver to the Tcl wiki
just because there was nothing there about us already.  In one day:

On 9/8/06, Michael A. Cleverly <cle...@gm...> wrote:
> I just discovered the existence of NaviServer last night (courtesy of
> http://wiki.tcl.tk/2090).  I don't know where I've been living for the
> past year... but wow, I'm seriously impressed and extremely excited
> about the existance of this project/fork!


Wiki's work.  And so does going where the people are.

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy crash

[Stephen D. <sd...@gm...>]

On 9/14/06, Zoran Vasiljevic <zv...@ar...> wrote:
>
> On 14.09.2006, at 21:59, Stephen Deasey wrote:
>
> > Currently you're cleaning up with a AtExit handler and manually
> > calculating a timeout to wait for proxies to exit.   I think you
> > really want an AtShutdown callback.  These already handle a
> > notification and then timeout sequence.
> >
> > I think at the moment a clean exit will take shutdown-timeout +
> > proxy-shutdown-timeout, which might be surprising to people.
> >
>
> Hey, isn't AtShutdown done per-thread?
>
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41969152][-shutdown-] Notice: nsproxy:
> shutdown started
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: driver:
> shutdown complete
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: spooler0:
> shutdown complete
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41969152][-shutdown-] Notice: nsproxy:
> shutdown pending
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41968128][-nsproxy:reap-] Notice: exiting
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41969152][-shutdown-] Notice: nsproxy:
> shutdown complete
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41969152][-shutdown-] Notice: nslog:
> closed '/usr/local/ns/logs/access.log'
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: nsproxy:
> shutdown started
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: nsproxy:
> shutdown complete
> [14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: nsmain:
> NaviServer/4.99.2 exiting
>
> I have the proc running twice which should'nt be?
> Was the AtExit a better solution?
>


AtShutdown callbacks are called twice:  the first time is to allow you
to notify threads that they should begin cleaning up for shutdown; the
second time you should actually wait for the shutdown to complete,
taking note of the absolute timeout value.

Look at some of the existing code that handles this.  There's 3 or 4
AtShutdown procs in the core.

The interface is kind of ugly, I agree.  I always have to look up what
I'm supposed to do.  Suggestions appreciated!

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy crash

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 14.09.2006, at 21:59, Stephen Deasey wrote:

> Currently you're cleaning up with a AtExit handler and manually
> calculating a timeout to wait for proxies to exit.   I think you
> really want an AtShutdown callback.  These already handle a
> notification and then timeout sequence.
>
> I think at the moment a clean exit will take shutdown-timeout +
> proxy-shutdown-timeout, which might be surprising to people.
>

Hey, isn't AtShutdown done per-thread?

[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41969152][-shutdown-] Notice: nsproxy:  
shutdown started
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: driver:  
shutdown complete
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: spooler0:  
shutdown complete
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41969152][-shutdown-] Notice: nsproxy:  
shutdown pending
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41968128][-nsproxy:reap-] Notice: exiting
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41969152][-shutdown-] Notice: nsproxy:  
shutdown complete
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.41969152][-shutdown-] Notice: nslog:  
closed '/usr/local/ns/logs/access.log'
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: nsproxy:  
shutdown started
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: nsproxy:  
shutdown complete
[14/Sep/2006:22:44:08][13827.2684415384][-main-] Notice: nsmain:  
NaviServer/4.99.2 exiting

I have the proc running twice which should'nt be?
Was the AtExit a better solution?

Re: [naviserver-devel] Second set of documentation

[Stephen D. <sd...@gm...>]

On 9/9/06, Zoran Vasiljevic <zv...@ar...> wrote:
>
> On 09.09.2006, at 00:18, Vlad Seryakov wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/nsdocs/
> >
> > A little bit converted but still in HTML
>
> Wow! It is great to see how much you (and Bernd)
> have done in so little time... Congratulations!
>
> A side note: anybody still usin ns_share?
>
>    NOTE: The use of ns_share is deprecated. Careless use of ns_share
>    commands can severely limit the scalability of an application.
>    The nsv commands solve this and this document describes how to
>    migrate your ns_share code to use nsv.
>
> I would drop that immediately.


And also ns_var.

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy revisited

[Vlad S. <vl...@cr...>]

yes,per pool is safer

Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> On 14.09.2006, at 22:13, Vlad Seryakov wrote:
> 
>> New command will be better and more clear
> 
> OK.
> 
>    ns_proxy stop ?pool? ?handle?
> 
> The [ns_proxy stop] will stop all running proxies (brrr.. )
> and [ns_proxy stop pool] only those belonging to a pool
> and [ns_proxy stop pool handle] only that particular handle.
> 
> I somehow have bad feeling abut [ns_proxy stop] as it is
> really far-reaching. Should we limit this to
> 
>    ns_proxy stop pool ?handle?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> naviserver-devel mailing list
> nav...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/naviserver-devel
> 

-- 
Vlad Seryakov
571 262-8608 office
vl...@cr...
http://www.crystalballinc.com/vlad/

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy revisited

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 14.09.2006, at 22:13, Vlad Seryakov wrote:

> New command will be better and more clear

OK.

   ns_proxy stop ?pool? ?handle?

The [ns_proxy stop] will stop all running proxies (brrr.. )
and [ns_proxy stop pool] only those belonging to a pool
and [ns_proxy stop pool handle] only that particular handle.

I somehow have bad feeling abut [ns_proxy stop] as it is
really far-reaching. Should we limit this to

   ns_proxy stop pool ?handle?

What do you think?

Re: [naviserver-devel] ns_proxy revisited

[Zoran V. <zv...@ar...>]

On 14.09.2006, at 22:13, Stephen Deasey wrote:

>
> Oh, OK.  So on an AMD64 box, pointers are 64bit, but int's are 32?
> You need long int to get 64bit?

Yes. Normally (what is normal today?) on a 64 bit box/compiler:
int = 32
ptr = 64
long long = 64
long = 64 (this I'm not sure)
short = 16