Re: [naviserver-devel] hosting java-script server-side?

[Andrew P. <at...@pi...>]

On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 09:23:35AM +0200, Zoran Vasiljevic wrote:
> Well, if you have 10 contendents for the job and 10 of them
> know PHP and JS and NOBODY knows Tcl and you just spend 5K
> Euros for ads, you would think different...

Why is that a problem?  Are candidates losing interest in your company
because of some sort of stigma associated with Tcl?  If so that could
be bad, but it doesn't sound like that's the problem.

Zoran, since you've been a Tcl expert for so long, maybe you've
forgotten that learning Tcl is EASY?  It is, you know, at least for
anybody good.  (Or at least, I've both heard and seen many examples
and claims supporting that assertion, and have neither seen nor heard
of even a single contrary example or claim.)

Yes, I'm basically just repeating an old Greenspun mantra here, but
I'm repeating it because AFAICT it's true.  [scratches head] Really,
back when I did the three week ArsDigita Boot Camp in early 2000, I
saw some people whom I DIDN'T consider sharp enough to hire as
programmers pick up Tcl quickly, including at least one person who
didn't have even a glimmer of programming experience at all, zip zero
nada, (and in fact little computer experience period, didn't even know
to type "ls" at the Unix shell prompt...)

And Tcl definitely does have a real advantage in ease and speed of
learning AFAICT.  E.g., I also like the R programaming langauge a lot
(despite some ugly corners), and R is also a high level, dynamic,
rapid development language, but it took me quite a lot longer to come
up to speed with R than it did with Tcl, and I'd had MUCH more
programming experience by that time...

Now, learning AOLserver and all your in-house APIs is probably much
more work than learning Tcl, but, any new hire is going to be starting
from scratch there anyway.  Seriously, just how much extra time is
learning Tcl going to add to the time it takes for a JavaScript wizard
to become productive at your company?  Maybe a week, three at the very
most?  Why is that a real problem?

Hell, you Europeans take lots more vacation time than that every
single year.  ;)

How long does your average programmer stay with your comany, years?
If so, and if you truly believe that your mostly Tcl environment is
highly productive for you, then you will easily recover that lost 1-3
weeks in increased productivity later on, no problem.

> It's just that we need new people and they need to be pretty
> quickly productive. We have no time to teach them all the

It may sound trite, but then my advice is: Do your very best to hire
only people you KNOW have a proven history of being highly productive,
learning fast, and being self starting.  (If you're company is small,
then that might be feasible simply through personal contacts.  But I
guess not in your case.)

> things from ground up. Learning time for Tcl isn't that long
> but then you get average (or less) code from the newbies. It is
> much better a person is already fluent in some language you use.
> He has less new things to learn.

That's nice when it happens, but I think it's highly overrated.  What
you typically want in a general programming hire is not so much
someone who has less to learn, as someone who habitually learns many
new things quickly.

-- 
Andrew Piskorski <at...@pi...>
http://www.piskorski.com/