Thread: [myhdl-list] Proposal to change license of wwww.myhdl.org
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From: Jan D. <ja...@ja...> - 2011-04-30 07:12:22
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Currently, content on the www.myhdl.org is licensed under the GFDL (Gnu Free Documentation License). The intent is that any content can be freely re-used and modified, including for commercial purposes, provided that any derived work is licensed under the same conditions. The GFDL was originally created for software documentation texts with a few authors. In practice, it is very hard if not impossible to comply with its requirements for on-line resources with many authors, such as wiki's. For these reasons, major projects like wikipedia have moved from the GFDL to the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license (CC BY-SA). The CC BY-SA implements the same intent as the GFDL, but in a way better suited to online resources with many. contributors. For example, it makes it possible to attribute the work by simply including an URL to the original content. The CC BY-SA is becoming the de facto standard for this type of resources, making it easier to create derived works by combining content from different sources. For more information and details, see: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update/Questions_and_Answers In light of the above, I am proposing to change the license for www.myhdl.org to CC BY-SA. Upfront, I cannot see a reason why any contributor would object to this: as said, it implements the same intent as the GFDL in a way that is workable in practice. Therefore, I am essentially looking for a consensus. I have prepared a draft Terms of Use that explains how www.myhdl.org would have to be used with the proposed license, based on the corresponding text from wikipedia: http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/terms_of_use I will wait a few days to see if there are any major or fundemental objections. I will treat absence of feedback as silent agreement, but I will not go ahead if there are major contributors who disagree. Jan -- Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com Analog design automation: http://www.mephisto-da.com World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com |
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From: Christopher F. <chr...@gm...> - 2011-04-30 13:50:19
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Sounds like a good plan. No objections here. Chris Felton On 4/30/11 2:11 AM, Jan Decaluwe wrote: > Currently, content on the www.myhdl.org is licensed under > the GFDL (Gnu Free Documentation License). > > The intent is that any content can be freely re-used > and modified, including for commercial purposes, provided > that any derived work is licensed under the same conditions. > > The GFDL was originally created for software documentation > texts with a few authors. In practice, it is very hard if > not impossible to comply with its requirements for on-line > resources with many authors, such as wiki's. For these > reasons, major projects like wikipedia have moved from > the GFDL to the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike > license (CC BY-SA). > > The CC BY-SA implements the same intent as the GFDL, but > in a way better suited to online resources with many. > contributors. For example, it makes it possible to > attribute the work by simply including an URL to the > original content. The CC BY-SA is becoming the de facto > standard for this type of resources, making it easier to > create derived works by combining content from different > sources. > > For more information and details, see: > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update/Questions_and_Answers > > In light of the above, I am proposing to change the license > for www.myhdl.org to CC BY-SA. Upfront, I cannot see a reason why > any contributor would object to this: as said, it implements the > same intent as the GFDL in a way that is workable in practice. > Therefore, I am essentially looking for a consensus. > > I have prepared a draft Terms of Use that explains how www.myhdl.org > would have to be used with the proposed license, based on the > corresponding text from wikipedia: > > http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/terms_of_use > > I will wait a few days to see if there are any major or > fundemental objections. I will treat absence of feedback > as silent agreement, but I will not go ahead if there > are major contributors who disagree. > > Jan > |
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From: Jan D. <ja...@ja...> - 2011-04-30 19:45:21
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On 04/30/2011 03:49 PM, Christopher Felton wrote: > Sounds like a good plan. No objections here. Thanks, Chris. > > Chris Felton > > On 4/30/11 2:11 AM, Jan Decaluwe wrote: >> Currently, content on the www.myhdl.org is licensed under >> the GFDL (Gnu Free Documentation License). >> >> The intent is that any content can be freely re-used >> and modified, including for commercial purposes, provided >> that any derived work is licensed under the same conditions. >> >> The GFDL was originally created for software documentation >> texts with a few authors. In practice, it is very hard if >> not impossible to comply with its requirements for on-line >> resources with many authors, such as wiki's. For these >> reasons, major projects like wikipedia have moved from >> the GFDL to the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike >> license (CC BY-SA). >> >> The CC BY-SA implements the same intent as the GFDL, but >> in a way better suited to online resources with many. >> contributors. For example, it makes it possible to >> attribute the work by simply including an URL to the >> original content. The CC BY-SA is becoming the de facto >> standard for this type of resources, making it easier to >> create derived works by combining content from different >> sources. >> >> For more information and details, see: >> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update/Questions_and_Answers >> >> In light of the above, I am proposing to change the license >> for www.myhdl.org to CC BY-SA. Upfront, I cannot see a reason why >> any contributor would object to this: as said, it implements the >> same intent as the GFDL in a way that is workable in practice. >> Therefore, I am essentially looking for a consensus. >> >> I have prepared a draft Terms of Use that explains how www.myhdl.org >> would have to be used with the proposed license, based on the >> corresponding text from wikipedia: >> >> http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/terms_of_use >> >> I will wait a few days to see if there are any major or >> fundemental objections. I will treat absence of feedback >> as silent agreement, but I will not go ahead if there >> are major contributors who disagree. >> >> Jan >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > WhatsUp Gold - Download Free Network Management Software > The most intuitive, comprehensive, and cost-effective network > management toolset available today. Delivers lowest initial > acquisition cost and overall TCO of any competing solution. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/whatsupgold-sd -- Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com Analog design automation: http://www.mephisto-da.com World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com |
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From: Christopher L. <loz...@fr...> - 2011-04-30 14:54:36
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First of all, I think it is great that you are upgrading the licensing. My question is, if someone were to offer a commercial class, can that person grab your flip flop examples, and use them. If not, what would it take to enable that use of the material. A commercial class is so needed. And the bigger question is do you want to support commercial activities, on top of MyHDL or not. I am heading out for the weekend. Please give me until Tuesday to get back to you. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org |
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From: Jan D. <ja...@ja...> - 2011-04-30 19:42:43
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On 04/30/2011 04:54 PM, Christopher Lozinski wrote: > First of all, I think it is great that you are upgrading the licensing. > > My question is, if someone were to offer a commercial class, can that > person grab your flip flop examples, and use them. Of course. As I said in my post: The intent is that any content can be freely re-used and modified, including for commercial purposes, provided that any derived work is licensed under the same conditions. (Note: This is independent of the proposed license change.) > And the bigger question is do you want to support commercial activities, > on top of MyHDL or not. The answer is yes, quite obviously. I'll let you know my current consultancy rate if you're interested. -- Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com Analog design automation: http://www.mephisto-da.com World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com |
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From: <loz...@fr...> - 2011-05-01 08:51:43
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>The intent is that any content can be freely re-used >and modified, including for commercial purposes, provided >that any derived work is licensed under the same conditions. (Note: This is independent of the proposed license change.) Then we all have a problem. To make MyHDL vibrant, we need a commercial class that goes to places like Hacker's Dojo in Silicon Valley and teaches newbies the material, and rapidly grows the community. I am not willing to put together such a class, if I have to do it all from scratch. And I am not willing to do it using existing materials, if it means I have to open source the whole class. Nor do I see anyone else even interested in creating the teaching materials. Sure Chris Felton did a great job in creating the basic tutorials, but there is so much other work to create and market such a class. And I do not see anyone doing it. So we all have a problem here. >The answer is yes, quite obviously. I'll let you know my >current consultancy rate if you're interested. Of course if someone shows up with lots of money great. But the question is how do we harness the meager resources of this community to more rapidly build what is needed. And frankly the current approach is not doing it, the conflict over the issues has been disastrous. So back to building my iPhone apps till all this gets sorted out. Regards Chris |
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From: Jan D. <ja...@ja...> - 2011-05-02 14:01:56
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On 05/01/2011 10:35 AM, loz...@fr... wrote: > > >> The intent is that any content can be freely re-used and modified, >> including for commercial purposes, provided that any derived work >> is licensed under the same conditions. > > (Note: This is independent of the proposed license change.) > > > Then we all have a problem. To make MyHDL vibrant, we need a > commercial class that goes to places like Hacker's Dojo in Silicon > Valley and teaches newbies the material, and rapidly grows the > community. > > I am not willing to put together such a class, if I have to do it all > from scratch. And I am not willing to do it using existing > materials, if it means I have to open source the whole class. Nor do > I see anyone else even interested in creating the teaching materials. > Sure Chris Felton did a great job in creating the basic tutorials, > but there is so much other work to create and market such a class. > And I do not see anyone doing it. > > So we all have a problem here. Let's see, what problem could that be? Right from the start, you made it very clear that you were looking for a closed-source project. For the record, I personally think that's absolute fine. Certainly it didn't prevent several people to offer help, myself included. Actually, some went to work immediately with considerable efforts. Now you're telling us that all those people have run away. Even the "great team" on your class website has apparently already been dissolved. There must be something in your approach that they dislike very much. There is no scapegoat to be found in closed source or the absence of potential help. The real question is how it is even possible to waste so much goodwill in such a small period of time. -- Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com Analog design automation: http://www.mephisto-da.com World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com |
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From: Christopher L. <loz...@fr...> - 2011-05-02 14:45:58
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> Let's see, what problem could that be? MyHDL is not going anywhere fast. Of course just this morning that lovely Spanish introductory python material showed up, as if to disprove my beliefs. But the larger issues is still there. The class libraries, the board interfaces, the test cases are just not there. To be specific, it does not have the functionality I need to build my project. And nothing visible is happening on the mailing list. > Right from the start, you made it very clear that you were looking > for a closed-source project. That is not entirely correct. I rather like the idea of the core being LGPL, meaning you are not allowed to make money reselling it. I like the idea of the class libraries and content being more open, like Zope public libraries, meaning you are allowed to resell them. > Actually, some went to work > immediately with considerable efforts. > Let me correct you. Chris Felton and Jan Coombs, did brilliant work, but we later learned we were working under different assumptions. > There must be something in your approach > that they dislike very much. That is very clear to me. There are those, Richard Stallman included, who do not like companies making money off their software, and so despite the good marketing name, "open source", they close the source to commercial use. Coming from the Zope community, I had not understood how strong those sentiments were. But in this case, we have a problem, that MyHDL is not growing as fast as we would like, and furthermore, the class libraries and test harnesses are barely there. They certainly do not meet my needs. I am just pointing out a problem. Please do not shoot the messenger. I would appreciate it if those who agreed with my position would also speak up. > The real question is how it is > even possible to waste so much goodwill in such a small > period of time. I like the saying, "Hard on issues, soft on people". Please let us stay focused on what it takes to build MyHDL into the thriving community that it deserves to be. Let us figure out what strong medicine this weak patient needs. I am sorry if strong medicine tastes bad. Anyhow thanks for engaging in this discussion, and allowing me to express a different point of view. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org |
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From: Jan D. <ja...@ja...> - 2011-05-02 22:02:58
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On 05/02/2011 04:45 PM, Christopher Lozinski wrote: >> Let's see, what problem could that be? > MyHDL is not going anywhere fast. Of course just this morning that > lovely Spanish introductory python material showed up, as if to > disprove my beliefs. But the larger issues is still there. The > class libraries, the board interfaces, the test cases are just not > there. To be specific, it does not have the functionality I need > to build my project. And nothing visible is happening on the mailing > list. > >> Right from the start, you made it very clear that you were looking >> for a closed-source project. > That is not entirely correct. I rather like the idea of the core > being LGPL, meaning you are not allowed to make money reselling it. > I like the idea of the class libraries and content being more open, > like Zope public libraries, meaning you are allowed to resell them. This illustrates very well why it so tiresome to discuss with you. You change opinions all the time, without getting the basic facts right. Now you suddenly like the LGPL. I guess I should be happy, but I'm not. You were against it for the wrong reasons, and now you like it, also for the wrong reasons. The difference between (L)GPL and "public" licenses is not that you are allowed to resell or not. If you manage to sell (L)GPL licensed software for millions of dollars, I think you would instantly become Richard Stallman's biggest hero. The ultimate proof of his concept. (It may not be easy, but that is really a different issue.) The difference is whether you can close the source of a modified version, or not. With (L)GPL you cannot, with "public" licenses you can. In the worst case, if two projects are based on my codebase, and mine stays open and yours is closed, you could start making legal troubles about my project, based on my own hard work. That is why I don't like "public" licenses (and why I think Richard Stallman is a genius, for making free software *feasible*.) >> Actually, some went to work immediately with considerable efforts. >> > Let me correct you. Chris Felton and Jan Coombs, did brilliant > work, but we later learned we were working under different > assumptions. Such an unfortunate order of events should be avoided. >> There must be something in your approach that they dislike very >> much. > That is very clear to me. There are those, Richard Stallman > included, who do not like companies make money off their software, > and so despite the good marketing name, "open source", they close > the source to commercial use. Coming from the Zope community, I had > not understood how strong those sentiments were. Again, the facts are wrong. (L)GPL is not about closing the source to commercial use. It is about keeping the source, and its derivatives, open to any use. Anyway, you suggest that the reason why people over here dislike your approach is that they are "open-source heroes". Perhaps, I don't know. I would be really surprized though, and my guess is the reasons are much more down-to-earth. > But in this case, we have a problem, that MyHDL is not growing as > fast as we would like, and furthermore, the class libraries and test > harnesses are barely there. They certainly do not meet my needs. > > I am just pointing out a problem. Please do not shoot the messenger. > I would appreciate it if those who agreed with my position would > also speak up. The diagnosis is not really the problem. I have posted a similar one on April 4 myself, so I have no intention to shoot the messenger. >> The real question is how it is even possible to waste so much >> goodwill in such a small period of time. > I like the saying, "Hard on issues, soft on people". Please let us > stay focused on what it takes to build MyHDL into the thriving > community that it deserves to be. Let us figure out what strong > medicine this weak patient needs. I am sorry if strong medicine > tastes bad. A bad taste doesn't make it a strong medicine. -- Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com Analog design automation: http://www.mephisto-da.com World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com |
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From: Tom D. <td...@di...> - 2011-05-03 03:19:30
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Hi all, I have been trying to follow this discussion but have really lost track of the problem, if there ever was one. I find MyHDL very useful and have done many presentations that have included references to how I use it in my design flow. The open license is a major advantage and I would not like to have it any other way. Tom On 05/02/2011 05:02 PM, Jan Decaluwe wrote: > On 05/02/2011 04:45 PM, Christopher Lozinski wrote: >>> Let's see, what problem could that be? >> MyHDL is not going anywhere fast. Of course just this morning that >> lovely Spanish introductory python material showed up, as if to >> disprove my beliefs. But the larger issues is still there. The >> class libraries, the board interfaces, the test cases are just not >> there. To be specific, it does not have the functionality I need >> to build my project. And nothing visible is happening on the mailing >> list. >> >>> Right from the start, you made it very clear that you were looking >>> for a closed-source project. >> That is not entirely correct. I rather like the idea of the core >> being LGPL, meaning you are not allowed to make money reselling it. >> I like the idea of the class libraries and content being more open, >> like Zope public libraries, meaning you are allowed to resell them. > This illustrates very well why it so tiresome to discuss > with you. You change opinions all the time, without getting > the basic facts right. > > Now you suddenly like the LGPL. I guess I should be happy, > but I'm not. You were against it for the wrong reasons, and now > you like it, also for the wrong reasons. > > The difference between (L)GPL and "public" licenses is not that > you are allowed to resell or not. If you manage to sell (L)GPL > licensed software for millions of dollars, I think you would > instantly become Richard Stallman's biggest hero. The ultimate > proof of his concept. (It may not be easy, but that is really a > different issue.) > > The difference is whether you can close the source of a modified > version, or not. With (L)GPL you cannot, with "public" > licenses you can. In the worst case, if two projects are > based on my codebase, and mine stays open and yours is closed, > you could start making legal troubles about my project, based > on my own hard work. That is why I don't like "public" > licenses (and why I think Richard Stallman is a genius, for > making free software *feasible*.) > >>> Actually, some went to work immediately with considerable efforts. >>> >> Let me correct you. Chris Felton and Jan Coombs, did brilliant >> work, but we later learned we were working under different >> assumptions. > Such an unfortunate order of events should be avoided. > >>> There must be something in your approach that they dislike very >>> much. >> That is very clear to me. There are those, Richard Stallman >> included, who do not like companies make money off their software, >> and so despite the good marketing name, "open source", they close >> the source to commercial use. Coming from the Zope community, I had >> not understood how strong those sentiments were. > Again, the facts are wrong. (L)GPL is not about closing > the source to commercial use. It is about keeping the source, > and its derivatives, open to any use. > > Anyway, you suggest that the reason why people over here dislike > your approach is that they are "open-source heroes". Perhaps, > I don't know. I would be really surprized though, and my > guess is the reasons are much more down-to-earth. > >> But in this case, we have a problem, that MyHDL is not growing as >> fast as we would like, and furthermore, the class libraries and test >> harnesses are barely there. They certainly do not meet my needs. >> >> I am just pointing out a problem. Please do not shoot the messenger. >> I would appreciate it if those who agreed with my position would >> also speak up. > The diagnosis is not really the problem. I have posted a similar one > on April 4 myself, so I have no intention to shoot the messenger. > >>> The real question is how it is even possible to waste so much >>> goodwill in such a small period of time. >> I like the saying, "Hard on issues, soft on people". Please let us >> stay focused on what it takes to build MyHDL into the thriving >> community that it deserves to be. Let us figure out what strong >> medicine this weak patient needs. I am sorry if strong medicine >> tastes bad. > A bad taste doesn't make it a strong medicine. > |
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From: Christopher L. <loz...@fr...> - 2011-05-02 16:04:35
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> > Jan L wrote: > > I am a little reluctant to send this to the list as I dont really > want to offend you, but rather give you my opinion why some things are > not working as expected. If you are comfortable with it, you can > forward it to the list. > I think the letter is excellent advise, so, I am publishing it to help move this conversation forward. On 5/2/11 8:17 AM, Jan Langer wrote: > Am 02.05.2011 um 16:45 schrieb Christopher Lozinski: >> But in this case, we have a problem, that MyHDL is not growing as fast >> as we would like, and furthermore, the class libraries and test >> harnesses are barely there. They certainly do not meet my needs. > > > Hi Christopher, > it seems there are only two ways to solve this problem. First, you sit > down and implement what you need. Or second, you find other people > doing it for whatever reasons. Somehow, the second is unlikely to > happen. People like spending time and effort for a good cause, but you > got to convince them that what you need is such a good cause. The best > way of doing this is going forward yourself. Work on solving your > problem and eventually people will help you if they can see this is > going somewhere. > > Maybe you can just write down your future plan in some detail and > outline what your part in it will be. Then you can ask if someone is > willing to join the effort. For my part, I dont really get your > overall concept. You say you want to offer a commercial class and I > personally doubt that enough people will buy the class to > significantly grow the MyHDL community or to earn a living for the > teacher. Another point is that a class is best taught by an expert of > that topic. So the best way for you is to become an expert by > implementing stuff. All excellent advise. So let me proceed. I believe that there are a significant number of software hackers who would like to build things using FPGA's. People like myself. We take a look at current microprocessors, and they use 2 billion gates (and one Bill Gates) to execuate 10 instructions per clock cycle. That is 200 million gates per instruction per clock cycle. Surely we can do better. And they hear that FPGA's can do 100 times better, and they are hooked. What do they do? They can use MyHDL, or Verilog, or VHDL. I tell you, the only option for me is python and MyHDL. Because I am not only building a FPGA, I have to build a considerable software stack on top of it. These are not necessarily hard-core Python developers. They are the guys who hang out in Silicon Valley at places like Hacker's Dojo. They may know a little python, they have heard good things about it, and are happy to use a python toolkit, MyHDL. The class will cost $50, the board another $50. I think a lot of these guys will have no problem to check it out. Some will stay. Will I make much money on this? No. But I will have a great time, and I am learning so much in this process. I am finding my path. I am getting educated. Thank you for all the help. My apologies if I often get it wrong. And I think that the guys who agree to teach these classes may be able to land some more lucrative MyHDL consulting gigs. So what is to be done? The next big task is to put together a slide show. Just like the Spanish introductory presentation that arrived this morning. I am sure other things will need to be done. Booking venues, answering questions, buying boards. Processing credit cards. Refunding cancellations. And dealing with the unexpected. And then we need to take this show on the road. I am happy to go up to Silicon Valley from time to time. I had so much fun on the bus back yesterday. Started learning Korean. Their sentence structure is like Japanese! > I think the best way to help MyHDL is to use it and during doing that > improve MyHDL itself and its online documentation. As I see it thats > exactly the way Jan D and others are successful. I understand this point of view. There is a huge difference between doing something for me, and doing it for someone else. If I were to work on MyHDL for myself, I would focus my attention, on the floating point class libraries, and the different ways to export them. If I am to work on this for someone else, I would teach them about FPGA's, and python and other such introductory things. Those are different focuses. So as a group, we need to facilitate the entry of new members, and reach out to them, by offering such a class, in a location where they are going to be, with an inexpensive circuit board, or better yet, a borrowed circuit board. So that is my plan. I invite people to help make this happen. Many hands make light work. I am happy to divide up the small amounts of money we make however people feel comfortable. I do not want to do it all myself. I think each of us can do what we most enjoy. And if there is one part that does not get done this way, if several of us do it together it will be quite easy. -- Regards Christopher Lozinski Check out my iPhone apps TextFaster and EmailFaster http://textfaster.com Expect a paradigm shift. http://MyHDL.org |
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From: Jan D. <ja...@ja...> - 2011-05-25 22:06:21
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On 04/30/2011 09:11 AM, Jan Decaluwe wrote: > In light of the above, I am proposing to change the license > for www.myhdl.org to CC BY-SA. Upfront, I cannot see a reason why > any contributor would object to this: as said, it implements the > same intent as the GFDL in a way that is workable in practice. > Therefore, I am essentially looking for a consensus. > > I have prepared a draft Terms of Use that explains how www.myhdl.org > would have to be used with the proposed license, based on the > corresponding text from wikipedia: > > http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/terms_of_use > > I will wait a few days to see if there are any major or > fundemental objections. I will treat absence of feedback > as silent agreement, but I will not go ahead if there > are major contributors who disagree. On the occasion of an upgrade of dokuwiki, and given that there were no objections, I have now changed the license of myhdl.org to CC BY-SA. I have also added a Terms of Use link in the sidebars. Jan -- Jan Decaluwe - Resources bvba - http://www.jandecaluwe.com Python as a HDL: http://www.myhdl.org VHDL development, the modern way: http://www.sigasi.com Analog design automation: http://www.mephisto-da.com World-class digital design: http://www.easics.com |
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