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Re: [Mod-pubsub-developer] RE: PHP push

From: Asynch M. <asy...@ho...> - 2003-02-08 22:11:35

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Rifkin" <ad...@xe...>

> First off, there's no KNN anymore.  We should get modpubsub.com up and
> running soon, to serve as the *new* KN Network.  (Yes, with a weblog,
> too.  Joyce just loves it when I volunteer her for things. :)
Would you like to use xmlrouter.net? I also have topiczero.com & some
others...

[Mod-pubsub-developer] RE: PHP push

From: <ad...@xe...> - 2003-02-08 16:42:26

Derek wrote:

> Thanks Kragen! Sorry for the tardiness in responding, it's gotten kinda
> busy round here.

Whew, I think we all know what that feels like nowadays.

> I forwarded your comments on server-push v. client-pull
> to the back-end architecting (gahh, when did 'architect' become a verb?)
> folks at Ludicorp (vide., <http://gameneverending.com/>), it was exactly
> the sort of information people will most need to know when deciding what
> technology to base their massively multiplayer online game (for example)
> on. And so why aren't such figures published front-and-center on the KNN
> site?? (Not-so-subtle nudge-nudge for KnowNow employees on the list.)

First off, there's no KNN anymore.  We should get modpubsub.com up and
running soon, to serve as the *new* KN Network.  (Yes, with a weblog,
too.  Joyce just loves it when I volunteer her for things. :)

Fyi, I run a local copy of mod_pubsub's kn_apps on

   http://pubsub.knownow.com/beta/kn_apps/

A lot of the apps are undocumented or broken, but that's just the way it
is.  They're all on my "to do" list to fix.

Anyway, thanks for the PHP bits below.  I'm in the middle of trying to
build a new Python Microserver, but PHP connectivity is high on my list
of things to work on, too...

   ;) Adam




The rest of Derek's message:

> Okay, I dug up the PHP bits, it's so simple it hurts -- just gotta watch
> out not to rely on ob_implicit_flush(), apparently it's still unstable so
> use an explicit flush() instead. Some sample code (wch. might not survive
> Yahoo-mail, they're getting testy abt. inline script stuff), e.g.:

> <?php

> function msleep($msec){
>   $start = gettimeofday(); $usec = $msec*1000; 
>   do { $stop = gettimeofday();
>        $timePassed = 1000000 * ($stop['sec'] - $start['sec'])+
> $stop['usec'] - $start['usec'];
>   } while ($timePassed < $usec);
> }

> function send($msg) {
>   $pre = "<script>parent.msg('";  // start JS call to parent
>   $post = "')</script> ";             // wrap-up the JS call
>   echo str_repeat(" ", 300) . "\n";      // MSIE caching fix
>   echo "$pre $msg $post" ;             // buffer the message
>   flush();                                // send the packet
> }

> // set_time_limit(5) ;   // optional 5 sec. timeout (default = 30 secs)

> $z = 10;
> while ($z>0) { 
>   msleep(1000);> > > > // Sleep 1 sec.
>   send("<h1>".$z--." ... </h1>");
> }      
> msleep(1200);  
> send("<h1>... shooka-pata-tata, hey!</h1>") ; 

> ?>

> While the client page'd look something like -- 

> <head>
> <script> 
>   function msg(content) {
>     status = " ";        // suppress URL display in status bar
>     document.getElementById('display').innerHTML = content ;
>   }
> </script>
> </head>
> <body>
> <div id="display"></div>
> <iframe style='display:none' src="pusher.php" name="pushlet">
> </body>

> So I guess you'd just round-robin through the currently connected client
> IP addresses any time there's something to send 'em, and like that ...

[Mod-pubsub-developer] FW: Windows Scripting

From: Adam R. <Ad...@Kn...> - 2003-02-08 16:32:59

I'm forwarding the message below in case anyone's interested in looking =
at Windows scripting.  I have a tarball that accompanies Andrew's =
original message if you're interested.

Also, my management wants me to recruit more developers and/or encourage =
more downloads.  Before I start randomly signing up Sourceforge =
accounts, if there's anyone you know of who might be interested, please =
let me know and I'll sign them up... you know how shy I am about =
spamming lists with "C0M3 S33 MY N3W W4R3Z, D00DZ..."

   :) Adam




-----Original Message-----
From:	S. Mike Dierken [mailto:mdi...@ho...]
Sent:	Thu 2/6/2003 10:30 PM
Subject:	Re: Windows Scripting

I think the WScript approach is beautiful. There are a lot of things you =
can
do with it. In fact, I write my 'sensors' with it & add them to a =
schedule
in Win2K. Doing a GET of some RSS, parsing the XML and POSTing the items =
is
really simple.

> I have also attached a version of the same script written in VBScript
(pubsub.vbs).
I love scripting, but VBS?... yuck.

> Ben:  Think about what a JScript microserver means...? (the current
JavaScript MS assumes
> an IE context, how different would it be to assume a WSH context?)
You can probably build wrappers around the script host things like
CreateObject, alert(), etc.
But the biggest problem will be the object model - the COM interface is =
not
exposing the same one as the JScript client. Methods names might be =
similar,
but that's not the whole story.
For example, with COM you have event.Parameter("name") =3D value; but =
with
JScript you have event.name =3D value; - so much smoother... The ability =
to do
this comes when you implement IDispatchEx (or something like that...). =
The
obj.prop syntax gets translated into a
getProperty("name")/setProperty("name") method automatically - but you =
have
to implement the IDispatchEx interface. You should be able to find =
examples
on the Net - if not I have working code here somewhere.... Also, =
requiring a
KNEvent object as a parameter to publish() is different than accepting =
JS
Object - you might want to accept IDispatch and branch on the interface
type - that way you can accept JS objects as well as the =
custom/proprietary
KNEvent ;)

 > I don't like VBScript, but if I have to use it I will.
Good man.


> Scripts can be used to quickly build COM objects (known as
> Windows Script Components).
I've heard of this but not done it myself.




----Original Message by Andrew:

All of us have probably long suspected that the Windows Scripting Host =
and Windows Scripting Environments might be ripe ground for building =
quick demos and/or tests--especially in combination with the WMI =
(Windows Management Instrumentation) capabilities built into Win2k.
=20
I have recently shed my phobias and learned what I needed to know about =
Windows Scripting.  God I hate reading Microsoft documentation.  18,000 =
link-traversal and concept-stack-pops later, I am able to offer you the =
following example:
=20
//pubsub.js
=20
var shell=3DWScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell");
var knms=3DWScript.CreateObject("KNMicroserver.KNMServer","knms_");
var ev=3DWScript.CreateObject("KNMicroserver.KNEvent");
=20
knms.ServerURI =3D "http://localhost/kn";
knms.Subscribe("/what/foobar");
=20
ev.Parameter("kn_payload")=3D"hi I'm here";
knms.Publish("/what/foobar",ev);
shell.PopUp("Click to exit...");
=20
function knms_OnEvent(ev){
  shell.PopUp(ev.Parameter("kn_payload"));
}
=20
=20
This example requires the windows microserver, but nothing else to =
create it or run it (Windows Scripting Host is an integral part of Win2k =
and also Win98 I believe).  You can just double click it to run it.
=20
I have also attached a version of the same script written in VBScript =
(pubsub.vbs).  Ben:  Think about what a JScript microserver means...? =
(the current JavaScript MS assumes an IE context, how different would it =
be to assume a WSH context?)
=20
You'll also find publish_processes.js, which is a JScript that publishes =
all known information about processes running on the current machine to =
the /what/processes topic on the localhost router.  Note that WMI =
scripting (of which publish_processes.js is an example), seems to be a =
LOT easier in VBScript rather than JScript.  I don't like VBScript, but =
if I have to use it I will.  See the VBScript_vs_JScript pdf.  For more =
information on WMI, check out http://msdn.microsoft.com and search for =
"WMI" and "WMI Scripting"
=20
Our PocketNOC example could be written as a script, thereby simplifying =
it considerably.
=20
There is an event-based interface for WMI as well, which I suspect will =
allow for "live" monitoring of activity rather than polling.  WMI also =
allows for system control (e.g., termination of processes, etc.).  One =
could build a senctl-like interface (see gif file) for windows, rather =
than UNIX, using WMI.
=20
Scripts can be used to quickly build COM objects (known as Windows =
Script Components).  A loadable filter module that knew how to attach =
and call out to a named COM class would then allow for arbitrary windows =
scripts to be invoked for filtering/transformation in the router--slow, =
but scripted and familiar to windows hackers.  One could also make the =
router module a script host directly, thereby avoiding slow COM =
invocations--I have an article outlining the steps.

Re: [Mod-pubsub-developer] Another demo app needed

From: <ad...@xe...> - 2003-02-08 16:28:06

Mike wrote:
> This demo that Jon talks about it very similar to KnowNews - streaming
> news items with discussion on the side. The discussions aren't saved
> anywhere, but, like, that, what, is so easy, dude, come on.

Thanks for the reminder about KnowNews, I linked to it from the
kn_apps/index.html page and checked the new index.html in.  I'll
have to make a new tarball soon, I keep committing small but
useful changes.  Make sure if you have a CVS checkout to regularly
do CVS updates so you stay... er... up to date.

For example, do_method=whoami was added to pubsub.py ... of course, when
running pubsub.py I see that clens does not, at present, work.  Will need
to go through it carefully to determine why.

> The only thing this needs is a service that emits RSS news items -
> this is a situation where doing a GET can create or start processing,
> yet can still be safe and idempotent.

Good point.

> You do a GET with the URI being the service combined with the RSS feed
> you want & this kicks off the polling monster to start periodically
> fetching RSS and returning it in a mod_pubsub stream (if it isn't
> already doing it for another client). When there are no more clients,
> then you stop. 

The new check-in of cxx_pubsub, among other things, contains

   mod_pubsub/cxx_pubsub/LibKN/Apps/RSSPub

which could be used to create such a service.  It uses the new LibKN
(sorry Fred, there are multiple libkn's now!) available in cxx_pubsub,
based on a C++ framework that has the following features:

  * Supports all Windows platforms: Win98, WinME, WinNT, Win2K, WinXP,
and WinCE 3.0.
  * Multiple interfaces to the C++ code: COM/ActiveX and .NET.
  * Thread-safe supporting multithreaded applications.
  * Doxygen comments.
  * cppunit-based unit tests.
  * Sample applications.
  * Based on WinInet to support proxies and SSL easily.

Check it out, you won't be disappointed.

> You could alternatively POST to a special service with the RSS
> location and the mod_pubsub destination, but you can't code that in a
> URL that you pass to kn.subscribe(url)

Another good point.  Mike's on a roll.  :)

----
aD...@Xe...

Websites Complaining About Screen-Scraping 
Posted by michael on Friday February 07, @03:18PM
from the there's-always-a-whiner dept.
wilko11 writes "There have been two cases recently where websites have
requested the removal of modules from CPAN. These modules could be used
to access the websites (EuroTV and Streetmap) from a PERL program. The
question being asked on the mailinglists (threads about EuroTV and about
Streetmap) is 'can companies dictate what software you can use to access
web content from their server?'" 
  -- http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/03/02/07/1849243.shtml?tid=156
     (as pointed out by the ever-knowing Greg Burd... :)

[Mod-pubsub-developer] Another demo app needed

From: Asynch M. <asy...@ho...> - 2003-02-08 07:12:04

This demo that Jon talks about it very similar to KnowNews - streaming news
items with discussion on the side. The discussions aren't saved anywhere,
but, like, that, what, is so easy, dude, come on.

The only thing this needs is a service that emits RSS news items - this is a
situation where doing a GET can create or start processing, yet can still be
safe and idempotent.
You do a GET with the URI being the service combined with the RSS feed you
want & this kicks off the polling monster to start periodically fetching RSS
and returning it in a mod_pubsub stream (if it isn't already doing it for
another client). When there are no more clients, then you stop.
You could alternatively POST to a special service with the RSS location and
the mod_pubsub destination, but you can't code that in a URL that you pass
to kn.subscribe(url)

==
http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/2003/02/05.html#a596

Wednesday, February 05, 2003
Exploring Tim Knip's Radio/Groove interop tool

When you install Tim Knip's Groove/Radio interop tool you specify three
tools in a shared space. First, a discussion tool whose items are sent to
your blog. Second, a files tool whose contents are upstreamed. Third,
another discussion tool that collects the RSS items fetched by your news
aggregator.

That third step is a doozy. Last June, in a report on an experiment in using
Groove and weblogs together, I wrote:

Hugh Pyle added something that made the experience truly Groovey: an RSS
reader. Suddenly the experience became qualitatively different. This news
aggregator was a group resource. I immediately saw it as a way to work more
effectively with (for example) my new colleagues at InfoWorld. I know of no
other way to focus the attention of a group on a stream of news which is
guaranteed to be identically and persistently available to everyone, and at
the same time to be able to support collaboration around that stream --
i.e., discussions about which items to pursue.

Tim's RSS-to-Groove feature accomplishes the same thing. But for me, and for
most people, it does so in a much more accessible way. Hugh's implementation
was a native Groove tool. Writing one of those is dramatically simpler
thanks to Groove's latest toolkits and APIs, but it's still a fairly
daunting exercise. With Groove Web Services, Tim was able to write his
version in Radio's UserTalk. Very exciting!

[Mod-pubsub-developer] One-line change to the INSTALL file.

From: Adam R. <Ad...@Kn...> - 2003-02-07 00:43:19

I added the "Options +ExecCGI" to the INSTALL file step 5, because my
Apache
Server was hiccuping without it.

Fyi,
  Adam




5.  Configure your Apache server to allow scripts in mod_pubsub/cgi-bin
to be parsed by mod_perl, and to alias the URL "/kn" to pubsub.cgi.
You can do this by adding lines like the following to httpd.conf.
(You may need to adjust the filenames for your Apache document root.)

    <Directory /var/www/mod_pubsub/cgi-bin>
      <Files *.cgi>
        Options +ExecCGI
        SetHandler perl-script
        PerlHandler Apache::Registry
        PerlSendHeader On
      </Files>
    </Directory>
    Alias /kn /var/www/mod_pubsub/cgi-bin/pubsub.cgi

[Mod-pubsub-developer] All the browser needs is to expand its range.

From: Adam R. <Ad...@Kn...> - 2003-02-06 07:08:26

I really like the way he thinks...


http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/wlg/2572

A Safari of Net Effects Part 2.
by Timothy Appnel
Jan. 9, 2003

In the continuing the review and discussion of Safari, Jason Kottke asks =
the intriguing question why are Safari and Sherlock two different =
applications? Jason argues that there is little distinction between web =
browsing and using specialized interfaces for structured data. He =
provides screen mockups of Safari to illustrate his point. An active =
discussion in the comment boards follows.

Back in September I wrote as the Internet continues to evolve into an =
'Internet operating system'--programmable interfaces, ubiquitous access, =
and distributed computing resources--the document-centric browser is an =
awkward solution to a growing number of emerging needs. The browser is =
not dying by any means; it just needs a mate.

Reading about Remote Application Development with Mozilla, the =
mod_pubsub open source project KnowNow kicked off and discussions like =
the one Jason is leading have me reconsidering my view. Does the browser =
really need a mate in as much as it needs to expand its range?

Could browsers like Mozilla and Safari/Konqueror be the basis of simple =
lightweight structured interfaces for accessing network resources and =
microcontent? What if these browser brought bookmarklets and remote XUL =
to the forefront as equal partners to viewing webpages?

More intriguing questions and experiments lie ahead.

Timothy Appnel is an independent consultant and writer specializing in =
emerging technologies and trends.=20

[Mod-pubsub-developer] Release 0.4 is available for download.

From: Adam R. <Ad...@Kn...> - 2003-02-06 06:56:26

With this release, we have added:
  1. An index page for kn_apps.
  2. C/C++ pubsub client (c_pubsub and cxx_pubsub) for Posix and Win32.

Also, we started the transition to /kn ...

Download from:

  =
https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3D66293&release_id=
=3D138350

Enjoy,
  Adam

RE: [Mod-pubsub-developer] PHP push

From: Derek R. <nn...@ya...> - 2003-01-29 17:46:42

Thanks Kragen! Sorry for the tardiness in responding, it's gotten kinda
busy round here. I forwarded your comments on server-push v. client-pull
to the back-end architecting (gahh, when did 'architect' become a verb?)
folks at Ludicorp (vide., <http://gameneverending.com/>), it was exactly
the sort of information people will most need to know when deciding what
technology to base their massively multiplayer online game (for example)
on. And so why aren't such figures published front-and-center on the KNN
site?? (Not-so-subtle nudge-nudge for KnowNow employees on the list.)

Okay, I dug up the PHP bits, it's so simple it hurts -- just gotta watch
out not to rely on ob_implicit_flush(), apparently it's still unstable so
use an explicit flush() instead. Some sample code (wch. might not survive
Yahoo-mail, they're getting testy abt. inline script stuff), e.g.:

<?php

function msleep($msec){
  $start = gettimeofday(); $usec = $msec*1000; 
  do { $stop = gettimeofday();
       $timePassed = 1000000 * ($stop['sec'] - $start['sec'])+
$stop['usec'] - $start['usec'];
  } while ($timePassed < $usec);
}

function send($msg) {
  $pre = "<script>parent.msg('";  // start JS call to parent
  $post = "')</script> ";             // wrap-up the JS call
  echo str_repeat(" ", 300) . "\n";      // MSIE caching fix
  echo "$pre $msg $post" ;             // buffer the message
  flush();                                // send the packet
}

// set_time_limit(5) ;   // optional 5 sec. timeout (default = 30 secs)

$z = 10;
while ($z>0) { 
  msleep(1000);				// Sleep 1 sec.
  send("<h1>".$z--." ... </h1>");
}      
msleep(1200);  
send("<h1>... shooka-pata-tata, hey!</h1>") ; 

?>

While the client page'd look something like -- 

<head>
<script> 
  function msg(content) {
    status = " ";        // suppress URL display in status bar
    document.getElementById('display').innerHTML = content ;
  }
</script>
</head>
<body>
<div id="display"></div>
<iframe style='display:none' src="pusher.php" name="pushlet">
</body>

So I guess you'd just round-robin through the currently connected client
IP addresses any time there's something to send 'em, and like that ...

D.


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RE: [Mod-pubsub-developer] libkn released; notes from 1/2003 MPSUG

From: Tommy H. <th...@ch...> - 2003-01-29 07:00:43

Hi,

To those who don't know me, I'm currently an employee of KnowNow and
I've been working on some Windows connectivity stuff on my own time. I'm
getting close to releasing a version of my stuff that is based on a C++
framework that has the following feature:

 * Supports all Windows platforms: Win98, WinME, WinNT, Win2K, WinXP,
and WinCE 3.0.
 * Multiple interfaces to the C++ code: COM/ActiveX and .NET.
 * Thread-safe supporting multithreaded applications.
 * Doxygen comments.
 * cppunit-based unit tests.
 * Sample applications.
 * Based on WinInet to support proxies and SSL easily.

I don't know the exact timeframe of when I will be releasing it, but it
is soon. However, I don't expect people to wait until I release it. If
you are working on something native to .NET, there's no reason why there
can't be more than one version. I would be interested in other versions
of any client libraries.

Either Adam or I will make an announcement when it becomes available.

Thanks.
Tommy


-----Original Message-----
From: Asynch Messaging [mailto:asy...@ho...]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:15 AM
To: mod...@li...
Subject: Re: [Mod-pubsub-developer] libkn released; notes from 1/2003
MPSUG



> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Rifkin" <Ad...@Kn...>
>
>    ACTION ITEM #2: Once this tarball ships, the next step is to
"Windows-enable" c_pubsub so we have connectivity to
> Windows desktops, as Mike Dierken and Jeff Barr have discussed in the=20
> past
and as KnowNow currently offers.
This sounds cool. What's the thinking? Are we talking about a COM object
that raises events that are visible from scripted clients - essentially
a COM interface to a 'router' object with
subscribe()/publish()/unsubscribe()
methods? If so, I've got some preliminary work in that area - I just
need to originating event to toss up.

>    2. We acknowledged how much we love Mike's AmazonPop application,=20
> but
noted that it crashes
> ungracefully "in stupid, ugly, unpredictable ways".
And unreported ways - isn't there a bug system on SourceForge? Not that
I'd actually do anything about the problems, but at least they'd be
listed somewheres...


> ACTION ITEM: Think about a mod_pubsub weblog.  Can any good come from
having one, or should we just
> stick to the mailing list for now?
I think a persistent log of thoughts and surface discussion is useful,
especially if it ties in other technology and ideas. It's often easier
than a mailing list archive. It also gets into blogs which are growing
in their use of pub/sub concepts. So I vote yes on a weblog.


-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.NET email is sponsored by:
SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld =3D Something 2 See!
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_______________________________________________
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Re: [Mod-pubsub-developer] PHP push

From: <kr...@po...> - 2003-01-27 20:03:27

Derek Robinson writes:
> I wrote a proof-of-concept demo of 'Pushlets' in PHP a few months ago for
> my own amusement. I concluded (as did the Java Pushlets guy) that pushing
> content over http to more than 20 or so clients puts an unnecessarily big
> burden on the server. (In fact the Pushlet guy has been pushing 'pullets'
> for quite a while now.) 

Well, it depends.  Most web servers can handle ten hits a second
without any trouble; assuming 10 kilobytes per hit, 20 hits a second
saturates a T1.  If you have no inline images, and your users spend an
average of 60 seconds on each page, that's only 1200 users.  And if
you're trying to get out real-time updates to these folks by means of
"pull", you have a maximal latency of 60 seconds; if you want updates
to be twice as frequent, it takes twice the bandwidth and server load.

Now, by contrast, IRC servers on the Undernet regularly handle 20 000
clients.  When I first performance-tested the push_manager included in
mod_pubsub back in 2000, it could handle 4 000 simultaneous push
connections on a 1GHz box without any trouble, and that's on Linux
without any compile-time kernel tuning.  IRC servers generally run on
FreeBSD because its network stack scales better, or at least used to.

Typically, an IRC client sends a notification every 10-20 seconds, and
receives a message 1-10 times a second.

So, anyway, pushing out updates when they happen can impose a much
smaller load on the server's bandwidth than having the client poll in
common circumstances.

> But hey, if anyone's interested I could dig it out & dust it off ...

I'd love to see it.

-- 
<kr...@po...>       Kragen Sitaker     <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
Edsger Wybe Dijkstra died in August of 2002.  The world has lost a great
man.  See http://advogato.org/person/raph/diary.html?start=252 and
http://www.kode-fu.com/geek/2002_08_04_archive.shtml for details.

[Mod-pubsub-developer] Re: libkn released; notes from 1/2003 MPSUG

From: <kr...@po...> - 2003-01-27 20:03:27

Adam asks:
>    7. We're curious if Kragen is currently brewing anything in the
> background.

Only in my own mind, I fear.  I'll let you know.

>    9. Monthly MPSUG meetings are fun socially and let us chat about =
> what's going on with the package.
> 
>    ACTION ITEM: I suggest we regularly meet somewhere in Silicon Valley =
> on the last Tuesday of the month at 8pm (this month excepted).  We'll =
> pick a different restaurant each time, announce it on the "developer" =
> list, and keep it open to anyone who wants to come and discuss.

I hope we can have these someplace north of Palo Alto, because I'd
like to come.  By the way, the last Tuesday of this month is tomorrow,
and Ben and I already plan to be working on mod_pubsub at my house at
8PM anyway (although I have to go to bed not long after that); if
other people want to come, maybe we could get even more done.

-- 
<kr...@po...>       Kragen Sitaker     <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
Edsger Wybe Dijkstra died in August of 2002.  The world has lost a great
man.  See http://advogato.org/person/raph/diary.html?start=252 and
http://www.kode-fu.com/geek/2002_08_04_archive.shtml for details.

[Mod-pubsub-developer] IM and Weblogs

From: Scott A. L. <sc...@sc...> - 2003-01-27 17:25:56

Interesting related thread on converging IM with weblog software. (View 
the comments for the discussion.)

<http://radio.weblogs.com/0001015/2003/01/26.html#a1691>

scottandrew