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I uploaded the 0.0.2 installer image. It is release 0.0.2 of the 
installer module. This should work. I'll probably have 0.0.3 done 
before Sunday (I need to compile the pcmcia and alsa stuff for our 
kernel...)

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

>
>
>-- Clinton Ebadi <unk...@un...> wrote:
>
>>From Clinton Ebadi Sat May 25 18:30:10 2002
>>From: "Clinton Ebadi" <unk...@un...>
>>To:
>>
>dK...@bi...,men...@li...
>
>>Subject: Re: [Mentalunix-developers] 0.0.2 almost done
>>Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 21:30:10 -0400
>>
>>>ok, sounds good.
>>>
>>>hurry up and get the image up so i can play with it
>>>
>>tho!!!
>>
>>>also, ill look into sorcerer, and see if i can find out
>>>
>>how
>>
>>>tthey did there iso's (you dl once, patch to upgrade!)
>>>
>>>i now have debian woody installed and working, and
>>>
>>after
>>
>>>you  get the new image up, i'll install and start
>>>configuring mentalinux to do what we want it to do. 
>>>
>>quick
>>
>>>question tho.  Monday is memorial day.... how are you
>>>
>>gonna
>>
>>>upload?
>>>
>>Err, I mean tuesday. The disc looks like it work. The USB
>>controller is 
>>detected and it chooses the OHCI driver (UHCI and OHCI
>>are statically 
>>compiled into the kernel) but my mouse won't accept its
>>id...I have a 
>>really flaky USB chipset so I'm going to ignore that for
>>now. If it 
>>doesn't work for other people, I'll use discover (I think
>>it can do 
>>this...) to detect if you have an OHCI or UHCI usb
>>controller and load 
>>the correct modules from preinst.sh. I'll probably
>>modularize some more 
>>of the drivers but I'll be leaving the config alone (or
>>at least make a 
>>working backup) for now.
>>

Ok, cool.  My car just died! so this next week or so is going to be quite
interesting for me!  have to find a way to get a new car now!

>> 
>>
>>>good luck on the job hunt (slashdot maybe?!?!?)
>>>
>>I was thinking more selling people stupid crap at Best
>>Buy...at least 
>>I'd get a discount on cds (the only non-stupid-crap
>>things they sell; I 
>>can get good music like Blind Guardian there...).
>>
Hmm, sure that'd be cool to.

Dustin

>>
>>-- 
>>unknown_lamer (not at home)
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________________________
>
>>Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's
>>Conference
>>August 25-28 in Las Vegas --
>>http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Mentalunix-developers mailing list
>>Men...@li...
>>
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mentalunix-developers
>
>
>=====
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>
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>

> ok, sounds good.
> 
> hurry up and get the image up so i can play with it tho!!!
> 
> also, ill look into sorcerer, and see if i can find out how
> tthey did there iso's (you dl once, patch to upgrade!)
> 
> i now have debian woody installed and working, and after
> you  get the new image up, i'll install and start
> configuring mentalinux to do what we want it to do.  quick
> question tho.  Monday is memorial day.... how are you gonna
> upload?

Err, I mean tuesday. The disc looks like it work. The USB controller is 
detected and it chooses the OHCI driver (UHCI and OHCI are statically 
compiled into the kernel) but my mouse won't accept its id...I have a 
really flaky USB chipset so I'm going to ignore that for now. If it 
doesn't work for other people, I'll use discover (I think it can do 
this...) to detect if you have an OHCI or UHCI usb controller and load 
the correct modules from preinst.sh. I'll probably modularize some more 
of the drivers but I'll be leaving the config alone (or at least make a 
working backup) for now.

> good luck on the job hunt (slashdot maybe?!?!?)

I was thinking more selling people stupid crap at Best Buy...at least 
I'd get a discount on cds (the only non-stupid-crap things they sell; I 
can get good music like Blind Guardian there...).

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

I hope...I seem to have created a severely brain damaged kernel config 
so swapper dies on boot and the kernel panics ("attempt to kill init"). 
I just copied the bf2.4 config (Debian 3.0 kernel 2.4.18 install disks) 
and started over (all I have changed now is enabling pre-emptive 
kernel, disabling 387 emulation, compiling for the 486, and enabling 
XFS). Hopefully I'll have a working kernel soon! I'll upload on monday. 
I'm going to have a problem with working on the install discs in about 
two weeks because school will be out...time for me to go and find work 
so I can pay for comcast.net...

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

Sorry about not having the new image done...I'm having problems with 
swapper dying on boot! Built an installer kernel is a bit hard because 
it takes so long to build and you have the reboot, test, reboot, 
recompile, repeat cycle...I'm going back through my entire kernel 
config to remove what doesn't look like it is really neccesary 
(basically experimental features...) and hope that the kernel boots.

I've also decided to compile the kernel for the 486 because no one can 
realistically use PGI (even in text mode) on a 386, although someone 
might still want to do it on a 486. There is also no math emulator 
support. If someone wants it, I'll add math emulation support...I've 
also updated the version of discover that goes on the disc (about 450 
new devices are detected). I'll try to have 0.0.2 installer images in 
the next few days.

--
unknown_lamer (not at home)

> > > alien -i foo.net_deb_pkg works, but what if you're trying to 
install a
> non slack or rpm package, (of course thats easily work aroundable), 
or you
> have a package that doesn't comply with your fs hierachy.  You will 
run
> into problems, or (more likely) misplaced files and such.  basically, 
my
> goal is to take any package (foo.rpm or whatever) feed it into my app
> (lprs), and install the app, record its precense in a db, etc.  Now
> obviously, most (all) package managers do that (to some extent).  the 
main
> difference, is that lprs will organize stuff in a much more organized
> manner (much like a ports system.  take a look at gentoo, and look at
> emerge and portage for a basic idea of what im thinking of).
> 
> The main reason i decided to do this is simply because i have not been
> pleased with any single packaging system.  emerge kicks ass, but the
> ebuilds (packages) blow.  apt kicks ass, but i think it could be 
better.
> alien, well, i havent used it yet, but it serves its purpose.  
debports
> might be great, might not.  i'll look at it, and maybe ill use that 
as a
> starting point.  remember, the biggest advantage to using a unix
> based/like system is that you could do stuff any way you want, and 
your
> not limited.  don't think of it as reinventing the wheel, but more 
like
> think of it as the hybrid car engines... its and advancement, bringing
> concepts together, not re-inventing something already done.
> the only disadvantage of designing a new package system is thats its
> limited to what its installed on, and isn't (at the beginning) used on
> other systems, and in other distro's.  but if done right, its solves
> problems.  if nothing else, it could lead to changes made in rpm, or 
apt,
> or dpkg, or whatever.
> 
> also, when i think of a new package system (if that is waht I would 
do) is
> not somethign like rpm, or deb, but rather a ruleset for tgz's or
> something like that.

I think an interesting project would be to add new macros to the 
autotools to let you do something like this:

configure.ac:
AC_INIT_PACKAGE([foo], [0.0.1])

Makefile.am
package_PACKAGES = foo bar
foo_CONTROL = control
...

> > > So now I guess we should do some general planning
> > > (nothing to
> > > detailed). I just want to compile a basic TODO list (e.g.
> > > * write
> > > second stage installer scripts) and start assigning
> > > tasks. I'll work on
> > > the website this weekend. Also, I know of at least one
> > > other person who
> > > will be testing the 0.0.2 installer image (on a laptop
> > > too). I think
> > > that someone is also going to test it on a desktop.
> > >
> sounds good.  0.0.1  needs lots of work,  and since you said you 
probably
> won't be able to upload until monday or tuesday, i'll give you a short
> list of my probs...
> 1) usb drivers are not loaded, and therefore, mouse won't work, and
> therefore, graphical install won't work.
> 2) networking,  my nic wasn't detected, and no module was loaded for 
it.
> 3) partitioning.  pgi required every partion to have a mount point.  
it
> hung on either my winxp partition with ntfs, or my gentoo partition 
with
> xfs.

I thought I was the only one with the usb problem (because of my ohci 
controller). I'll recompile the kernel with the ohci and uhci 
controllers in the kernel instead of as modules. The X installer 
wouldn't have worked anyway. PGI shouldn't hang on every partition not 
having a mount point, it worked fine for me (btw, pgi starts X with the 
open mouse allowed to fail option so it should work with no mouse). I 
think that might be because you were doing the text mode install. 

Also, what NIC do you have? I think I compiled modules for every single 
NIC the kernel has available...maybe discover doesn't have the card in 
its device database. I should be able to rebuild the kernel with 
support for your ethernet card if I get a message sometime today, if 
not it will have to wait for 0.0.3. 

I think I'll go and swap parts around with some old machines to build a 
server (so I can actually test the installer) and go out to get a 
crossover cable...

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

> --- Clinton Ebadi <unk...@un...> wrote:
> > From Clinton Ebadi Fri May 17 12:40:34 2002
> > From: "Clinton Ebadi" <unk...@un...>
> > To: dK...@bi...,
> > men...@li...
> > Subject: Re: [Mentalunix-developers] Installer image
> > 0.0.1
> > Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:40:34 -0400
> >
> > I think that maybe everyone should CC stuff to
> > mentalunix-
> > dev...@li.... I have been sending
> > stuff to
> > mentalinux-developers :) (hey, only the u and i
> > switched). We need to
> > make sure everyone is informed.
good idea, i've been slacking!

> >
> > > > > hmm, well maybe an outline of the stuff you
> > changed.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > gonna take a look at Lycoris's installer as well
> > > > (modified
> > > > > Caldera Lizard).  As for packaging.  Sometime in
> > the
> > > > near
> > > > > future, I'm gonna get going and install lfs again,
> > and
> > > > try
> > > > > to build a packaging system for it. (it will be at
> > > > > lprs.sourceforge.net, but site isnt done yet...).
> > I
> > > > was
> > > > > thinking that the package system that I want, is
> > very
> > > > > similar to apt, but with the additional features
> > and
> > > > > greatness of Gentoo's emerge.  I need to sit down
> > and
> > > > go
> > > > > through all of the ebuild/emerge/portage
> > documentation,
> > > > as
> > > > > well as apt.  I'm personally thinking that we need
> > to
> > > > go
> > > > > beyond just making tasks, and designing some app
> > that
> > > > could
> > > > > be used in addition to dpkg and apt (kinda like
> > > > dselect,
> > > > > and that other app(can't remember name) do).
> > > >
> > > > Why reinvent the wheel? We can just use deity for
> > > > managing packages (if
> > > > anyone wants to browse through the package list). It
> > > > would be interesting to
> > > > do new stuff, like allow users to submit the
> > locations of
> > > > new packages they
> > > > want to be packaged. For configuration we have
> > Debconf--I
> > > > just finished my
> > > > Guile Scheme Debconf interface (but it doesn't work
> > > > because of some wierdness
> > > > with Scheme ports and normal I/O..ugh). We can force
> > our
> > > > config program to
> >
> > Just a quick update--yes, it works now. I needed to run
> > (force-output)
> > on the port I was outputting to after sending the line to
> > force the
> > line to be written (because Scheme ports are buffered).
> > Now it runs
> > fine (I think..it ran the demo script that I converted
> > into Scheme
> > fine). I'll upload this soon (as soon as I make a package
> > for it).
> >
> > > > run from postinst or we can modify PGI to do that
> > during
> > > > the install (I think
> > > > that we should work on PGI a bit because it isn't
> > quite
> > > > as slick as
> > > > Mandrake's installer yet).
> > >
> > > i was thinking about that...  what i want to do isnt
> > really
> > > make a new package manager, but make a general
> > packaging
> > > system.  I'm not gonna make another rpm, or deb, its
> > not
> > > worth it, and there's no point.  Think of something
> > more
> > > along the lines of an app that will work in conjunction
> > > with apt, rpm, emerge, whatever and allow you to
> > convert
> > > packages to your system.  Its gonna take a while, but i
> > > think its worth it.  i'll write up a white paper, and
> > get
> > > the site done in the next day or 3, then you can check
> > it
> > > out, and get a better idea what im thinkin of.
> >
> > So, a meta-packager like what MPKG ended up being planned
> > to be? Meta
> > Packing would be nice. You should look at Debian's alien
> > that can
> > convert slack tgz and rpms into debs (and I think the
> > other way
> > around). You might want to work on adding more formats
> > and better
> > support to alien while working on a better frontend for
> > it (of course,
> > is alien -i foo.not_debian_package that hard to install
> > an
> > rpm/slack_package on Debian?)
> >
basically, maybe something a bit more advanced tho.  and a simplified
interface.

> > alien -i foo.net_deb_pkg works, but what if you're trying to install a
non slack or rpm package, (of course thats easily work aroundable), or you
have a package that doesn't comply with your fs hierachy.  You will run
into problems, or (more likely) misplaced files and such.  basically, my
goal is to take any package (foo.rpm or whatever) feed it into my app
(lprs), and install the app, record its precense in a db, etc.  Now
obviously, most (all) package managers do that (to some extent).  the main
difference, is that lprs will organize stuff in a much more organized
manner (much like a ports system.  take a look at gentoo, and look at
emerge and portage for a basic idea of what im thinking of).

The main reason i decided to do this is simply because i have not been
pleased with any single packaging system.  emerge kicks ass, but the
ebuilds (packages) blow.  apt kicks ass, but i think it could be better.
alien, well, i havent used it yet, but it serves its purpose.  debports
might be great, might not.  i'll look at it, and maybe ill use that as a
starting point.  remember, the biggest advantage to using a unix
based/like system is that you could do stuff any way you want, and your
not limited.  don't think of it as reinventing the wheel, but more like
think of it as the hybrid car engines... its and advancement, bringing
concepts together, not re-inventing something already done.

> > > > As for a new pacakge format -- NO. That is a very bad
> > > > idea. We already have
> > > > RPM, DEB (and soon udeb, the dnew deb format).  I
> > think
> > > > that letting users
> > > > build packages from source if they want is a good
> > idea
> > > > (and you can do that
> > > > now with apt-get -b source --include-deps
> > package_foo). A
> > > > BSD ports like
> > > > system would be good...and here is a good start:
> > > > http://debianplanet.org/article.php?sid=3D271. Debports
> > > > doesn't build from
> > > > source, but it is a tiny perl script so it couldn't
> > be
> > > > too hard to make it
> > > > build from source instead. It would be even better if
> > it
> > > > let you rebuild the
> > > > entire system from source with a simple make
> > all...that
> > > > should go on the TODO
> > > > list (of course a user that wanted to do that should
> > just
> > > > run buildd because
> > > > it is easier [automated]).
> > > well, i already kinda responded to this above.  But,
> > > anyways, i'm not making something new and incompatible,
> > but
> > > rather something that will work with everything.  i
> > guess
> > > its kinda like an advanced ports system.
> >
the only disadvantage of designing a new package system is thats its
limited to what its installed on, and isn't (at the beginning) used on
other systems, and in other distro's.  but if done right, its solves
problems.  if nothing else, it could lead to changes made in rpm, or apt,
or dpkg, or whatever.

also, when i think of a new package system (if that is waht I would do) is
not somethign like rpm, or deb, but rather a ruleset for tgz's or
something like that.

 > > I changed a bit of debports to
make it (1) work (it was > > using /var/state/apts/lists which is now
> > /var/lib/apt/lists) and (2)
> > build from source. I don't know much perl so I'm just
> > going to upload
> > my tiny changes when I upload the 0.0.2 installer disc
> > (more on that
> > later...)

sounds good.  i'm decent at perl code. i'm no guru yet, but i do
understand it.  i'll take a look at it when you get it up.

> >
> > > > > The next week or so I'm gonna be very busy, but
> > I'll
> > > > still
> > > > > try to get some development stuff done.  This
> > weekend
> > > > I'll
> > > > > attempt to get some documentation done as well.
> > > > Sometime
> > > > > soon, we are gonna want to officially organize all
> > of
> > > > this.
> > > > >  Basically we need to get a daily (or as close to
> > daily
> > > > as
> > > > > possible) update on progress.  daily changelog(?).
> > As
> > > > well
> > > > > as start assigning tasks to certain people (mainly
> > to
> > > > help
> > > > > get stuff done!, but not necessarily saying that
> > one
> > > > person
> > > > > is restricted to working on x project...).
> > > >
> > > > I'm rewriting the website right now, so no one touch
> > > > that. I think I can (I
> > > > don't know much php..but it is quite simple and has a
> > > > nice reference manual)
> > > > add a journals page. An itneresting think to do with
> > the
> > > > journals (developers
> > > > daily logs) would be to have all of us check our
> > > > changelogs into a CVS tree
> > > > and have the page read the log entries every day. I
> > think
> > > > this would work
> > > > best if a cron job run every day checked out the file
> > and
> > > > dumped it as a
> > > > plain text file to allow the page to read it...
sounds good. if you need any help, or get caught, let me know, and i'll
see if i can help.

cvs daily dev changelogs is a great idea. keeps code documented, and keeps
us on the same page.

> > > >
> > > > As for planning: not right now. At least not long
> > term
> > > > planning. As for the
> > > > short term:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Installer images (make them work...I think the
> > > > gdk-imlib I put on the
> > > > installer cd is broken)
> > > > 2. Tweak kernel
> > > > 2. buildd system that is rebuilding specific packages
> > > > (e.g. KDE) from
> > > > unstable for woody and imports pre-built packages
> > from
> > > > other unnoficial
> > > > sources
> > > > 3. Better debports (build from source)
> > > >
> > > > Midterm:
> > > > 1. Even easier install
> > > > 2. ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And a basic long term set of goals:
> > > > 1. Full Debian mirror that builds packages using GCC
> > 3.x
> > > > instead of 2.95
> > > > (better code)
> > > > 2. Optimized Debian builds (i586, i686, athlon)
> > > > 3. Mentalinux for the PPC and other archs Debian
> > supports
> > > >
> > > > > P.S.  If/when we find a new/better project home, it
> > > > might
> > > > > be a good idea to get some project related email
> > > > address
> > > > > started.  Also, let me know if you want me to do
> > > > anything
> > > > > about some small file hosting (will be accessable
> > via
> > > > ssh).
> > > >
> > > > I'm looking for a server to host us, but it is
> > difficult
> > > > because of our hefty
> > > > requirements. I think I'll post a sourceforge news
> > item
> > > > soon (sf.net might
> > > > not like it...)
> > > lol
> >
> > > looks good.  I just got a new hard drive, so I got lots
> > of
> > > free room now!!  I'm gonna start messing around with
> > the
> > > mentalinux stuff, as well as lizard, and auto lfs.  if
> > I
> > > can get my debian cd's burnt, i can get 2.2r6 running
> > in
> > > the next day or two too.  or i'll just use mentalinux,
> > and
> > > do it via web.
> >
> > Isn't lizard licensed under the QPL?  Last time I looked
> > at it
> > (admittedly over a year ago) it was...and the QPL is
> > evil. Also, skip
> > Debian 2.2r6. If you have ATA100 it won't even
> > install...just wait for
> > me to upload the _working_ Mentalinux ISO monday or
> > tuesday (I'm
> > building it now, but won't be able to upload until monday
> > because of
> > bandwidth). The gdk_imlib on the 0.0.1 install is broken,
> > and the one
> > that I made last night has a broken python-gnome 8-(. I
> > seem that have
> > bad luck with these things (this is what I get for
> > running Debian
> > unstable).
i believe lizard does have a restrictive license.  i'm not planning on
using it in a project or anything.  just thinking of looking at it to get
idea's etc.

still havent gotten the 2.2r6 cd's burnt, and guess i wont now!!!

i got 2.2r0 installed tho.  need to do some serious updating on it tho
(its running 2.2.17!!!)

> >
> > So now I guess we should do some general planning
> > (nothing to
> > detailed). I just want to compile a basic TODO list (e.g.
> > * write
> > second stage installer scripts) and start assigning
> > tasks. I'll work on
> > the website this weekend. Also, I know of at least one
> > other person who
> > will be testing the 0.0.2 installer image (on a laptop
> > too). I think
> > that someone is also going to test it on a desktop.
> >
> > --
> > unknown_lamer (not at home)
sounds good.  0.0.1  needs lots of work,  and since you said you probably
won't be able to upload until monday or tuesday, i'll give you a short
list of my probs...
1) usb drivers are not loaded, and therefore, mouse won't work, and
therefore, graphical install won't work.
2) networking,  my nic wasn't detected, and no module was loaded for it.
3) partitioning.  pgi required every partion to have a mount point.  it
hung on either my winxp partition with ntfs, or my gentoo partition with
xfs.

i'm gonna start messing with it a little bit, and see if i can get
anything fixed on it.

i'll post updates to men...@so...

---
Dustin

> >
> >
> _______________________________________________________________
> >
> > Hundreds of nodes, one monster rendering program.
> > Now that=92s a super model! Visit
> > http://clustering.foundries.sf.net/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mentalunix-developers mailing list
> > Men...@li...
> >
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mentalunix-developers
>
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> "So long as the state exists there is no freedom. When there is freedom, =
there will be no state"
> Vladimir Lenin
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
> http://launch.yahoo.com
>

I think that maybe everyone should CC stuff to mentalunix-
dev...@li.... I have been sending stuff to 
mentalinux-developers :) (hey, only the u and i switched). We need to 
make sure everyone is informed.

> > > hmm, well maybe an outline of the stuff you changed. 
> > I'm
> > > gonna take a look at Lycoris's installer as well
> > (modified
> > > Caldera Lizard).  As for packaging.  Sometime in the
> > near
> > > future, I'm gonna get going and install lfs again, and
> > try
> > > to build a packaging system for it. (it will be at
> > > lprs.sourceforge.net, but site isnt done yet...).  I
> > was
> > > thinking that the package system that I want, is very
> > > similar to apt, but with the additional features and
> > > greatness of Gentoo's emerge.  I need to sit down and
> > go
> > > through all of the ebuild/emerge/portage documentation,
> > as
> > > well as apt.  I'm personally thinking that we need to
> > go
> > > beyond just making tasks, and designing some app that
> > could
> > > be used in addition to dpkg and apt (kinda like
> > dselect,
> > > and that other app(can't remember name) do).
> > 
> > Why reinvent the wheel? We can just use deity for
> > managing packages (if 
> > anyone wants to browse through the package list). It
> > would be interesting to 
> > do new stuff, like allow users to submit the locations of
> > new packages they 
> > want to be packaged. For configuration we have Debconf--I
> > just finished my 
> > Guile Scheme Debconf interface (but it doesn't work
> > because of some wierdness 
> > with Scheme ports and normal I/O..ugh). We can force our
> > config program to 

Just a quick update--yes, it works now. I needed to run (force-output) 
on the port I was outputting to after sending the line to force the 
line to be written (because Scheme ports are buffered). Now it runs 
fine (I think..it ran the demo script that I converted into Scheme 
fine). I'll upload this soon (as soon as I make a package for it).

> > run from postinst or we can modify PGI to do that during
> > the install (I think 
> > that we should work on PGI a bit because it isn't quite
> > as slick as 
> > Mandrake's installer yet). 
> 
> i was thinking about that...  what i want to do isnt really
> make a new package manager, but make a general packaging
> system.  I'm not gonna make another rpm, or deb, its not
> worth it, and there's no point.  Think of something more
> along the lines of an app that will work in conjunction
> with apt, rpm, emerge, whatever and allow you to convert
> packages to your system.  Its gonna take a while, but i
> think its worth it.  i'll write up a white paper, and get
> the site done in the next day or 3, then you can check it
> out, and get a better idea what im thinkin of.

So, a meta-packager like what MPKG ended up being planned to be? Meta 
Packing would be nice. You should look at Debian's alien that can 
convert slack tgz and rpms into debs (and I think the other way 
around). You might want to work on adding more formats and better 
support to alien while working on a better frontend for it (of course, 
is alien -i foo.not_debian_package that hard to install an 
rpm/slack_package on Debian?)

> > As for a new pacakge format -- NO. That is a very bad
> > idea. We already have 
> > RPM, DEB (and soon udeb, the dnew deb format).  I think
> > that letting users 
> > build packages from source if they want is a good idea
> > (and you can do that 
> > now with apt-get -b source --include-deps package_foo). A
> > BSD ports like 
> > system would be good...and here is a good start: 
> > http://debianplanet.org/article.php?sid=271. Debports
> > doesn't build from 
> > source, but it is a tiny perl script so it couldn't be
> > too hard to make it 
> > build from source instead. It would be even better if it
> > let you rebuild the 
> > entire system from source with a simple make all...that
> > should go on the TODO 
> > list (of course a user that wanted to do that should just
> > run buildd because 
> > it is easier [automated]). 
> well, i already kinda responded to this above.  But,
> anyways, i'm not making something new and incompatible, but
> rather something that will work with everything.  i guess
> its kinda like an advanced ports system.

I changed a bit of debports to make it (1) work (it was 
using /var/state/apts/lists which is now /var/lib/apt/lists) and (2) 
build from source. I don't know much perl so I'm just going to upload 
my tiny changes when I upload the 0.0.2 installer disc (more on that 
later...)

> > > The next week or so I'm gonna be very busy, but I'll
> > still
> > > try to get some development stuff done.  This weekend
> > I'll
> > > attempt to get some documentation done as well. 
> > Sometime
> > > soon, we are gonna want to officially organize all of
> > this.
> > >  Basically we need to get a daily (or as close to daily
> > as
> > > possible) update on progress.  daily changelog(?). As
> > well
> > > as start assigning tasks to certain people (mainly to
> > help
> > > get stuff done!, but not necessarily saying that one
> > person
> > > is restricted to working on x project...).
> > 
> > I'm rewriting the website right now, so no one touch
> > that. I think I can (I 
> > don't know much php..but it is quite simple and has a
> > nice reference manual) 
> > add a journals page. An itneresting think to do with the
> > journals (developers 
> > daily logs) would be to have all of us check our
> > changelogs into a CVS tree 
> > and have the page read the log entries every day. I think
> > this would work 
> > best if a cron job run every day checked out the file and
> > dumped it as a 
> > plain text file to allow the page to read it...
> > 
> > As for planning: not right now. At least not long term
> > planning. As for the 
> > short term:
> > 
> > 1. Installer images (make them work...I think the
> > gdk-imlib I put on the 
> > installer cd is broken)
> > 2. Tweak kernel
> > 2. buildd system that is rebuilding specific packages
> > (e.g. KDE) from 
> > unstable for woody and imports pre-built packages from
> > other unnoficial 
> > sources
> > 3. Better debports (build from source)
> > 
> > Midterm:
> > 1. Even easier install
> > 2. ?
> > 
> > 
> > And a basic long term set of goals:
> > 1. Full Debian mirror that builds packages using GCC 3.x
> > instead of 2.95 
> > (better code)
> > 2. Optimized Debian builds (i586, i686, athlon)
> > 3. Mentalinux for the PPC and other archs Debian supports
> > 
> > > P.S.  If/when we find a new/better project home, it
> > might
> > > be a good idea to get some project related email
> > address
> > > started.  Also, let me know if you want me to do
> > anything
> > > about some small file hosting (will be accessable via
> > ssh).
> > 
> > I'm looking for a server to host us, but it is difficult
> > because of our hefty 
> > requirements. I think I'll post a sourceforge news item
> > soon (sf.net might 
> > not like it...)
> lol

> looks good.  I just got a new hard drive, so I got lots of
> free room now!!  I'm gonna start messing around with the
> mentalinux stuff, as well as lizard, and auto lfs.  if I
> can get my debian cd's burnt, i can get 2.2r6 running in
> the next day or two too.  or i'll just use mentalinux, and
> do it via web.  

Isn't lizard licensed under the QPL?  Last time I looked at it 
(admittedly over a year ago) it was...and the QPL is evil. Also, skip 
Debian 2.2r6. If you have ATA100 it won't even install...just wait for 
me to upload the _working_ Mentalinux ISO monday or tuesday (I'm 
building it now, but won't be able to upload until monday because of 
bandwidth). The gdk_imlib on the 0.0.1 install is broken, and the one 
that I made last night has a broken python-gnome 8-(. I seem that have 
bad luck with these things (this is what I get for running Debian 
unstable).

So now I guess we should do some general planning (nothing to 
detailed). I just want to compile a basic TODO list (e.g. * write 
second stage installer scripts) and start assigning tasks. I'll work on 
the website this weekend. Also, I know of at least one other person who 
will be testing the 0.0.2 installer image (on a laptop too). I think 
that someone is also going to test it on a desktop.

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

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Seeing as the last post was almost a year ago now as well...Join the 
mentalunix-developers mailing if you want to help with the distro 
(which is now starting development again after a year of idleness). 
We will soon be leaving sourceforge as well, so check 
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http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/mentalunix/mentalinux-installer-
i386.iso

Mentalinux Debian GNU/Linux 0.0.1 installer ISO :). I'm sending an 
announcement to the local lugs to see if anyone has a server we could 
use for running buildd. I also want to get off of soureforge as soon as 
possible because VA has turned into a proprietary software company (and 
no one likes them). Can someone else run the installer on a spare 
machine / partition? I _think_ it works but I have no network 
connection so I can't really test it.

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

> > > I was previously the website maintaner person, but if
> > you'd
> > > like to take over, thats cool, as I don't really have
> > the
> > > time.
> > 
> > Ok.
> > 
> > > I should have an indigo2 set up and working in the next
> > > couple days too!!!  hehe, although thats completely
> > > unrelated to this stuff!!!
> > 
> > You can be in charge of the MIPS port of Mentalinux :).
> > 
> Hmm, I guess I can handle that!!!  Maybe MentaLinux MIPS
> will be the first linux to have native indigo2 video
> support!! (xfree doesnt support it yet)

The problem is that the only SGI unit that has framebuffer support is 
the Indy. 

> > Progeny discover handles hardware probing for us. 
> > 
> I wasn't refering to the install, I was thinking more along
> the lines of making kernel configuration (re/building)
> easier for new people.  And just simplifing the process. 
> Like running something like make_kernel <some specific
> optimizations>, and that would run some app that would
> probe the hardware, and build a kernel that would fully
> support it. (maybe make it to spit out info on unsupported
> hardware...)

We could probably use libdiscover and integrate that with the kernel 
configuration system. I would wait to do that for 2.6 because any 
improvements to the current configuration system would be useless after 
it is released.

I'll have an installer cd done by next week (I was having some problems 
with GCC segfaulting...but memtest says by ram isn't bad. grrr).

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

> > That is basically what you do with Debian right now--you grab two
> > installer disks
> which rarely work.

Really? They worked fine for me at the end of April when I had to
reinstall Debian because of fs corruption. The 2.2 disks didn't work for
some reason with my friend's network, but the bf2.4 disks worked fine.

> 
> > or an ISO image,
> only if you have a cable modem, and plenty of hard drive space.
Yes, but you can also buy official images. I'm trying for find some
place to host a complete Debian mirror. Maybe we can eventually
distribute Mentalinux cds.

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

I guess it would be good to at least try to start the project back up. 
I'm almost done configuring and tweaking the installer disk kernel, and 
should have a basic pgi based installer iso uploaded in a few days 
(good thing I have bandwidth at school...the images are around 90MB). 
I'm going to try to find work (hmm..Best Buy is suddenly seeming evil, 
but workable [I'm fscking desperate...I've got nowhere else to go]). I 
am going to be apply the imon patch, preempt kernel patch, and resierfs 
patch. Should I apply the lpp patch (it is the patch that hides the 
boot messages with an image and a progress bar 
(http://lpp.freelords.org/)? I'll put that as later in my TODO file. 

On the thread of the installer--the progeny configlet system 
(hackers.progeny.com) uses Python, but I don't really like Python (it 
doesn't kill me to use it...). I'll look around to see if I can get 
anyone to join the project so we can have a vote on whether to use 
Progeny's configlet system or write our own (I am thinking Guile 1.6 + 
Guile-Gtk and a simple config library, probably rewritten from the 
configlet system). I'm grabbing the configlet source to see if it would 
be possible to simply at Guile support so everyone can do both.

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

> > Is anyone still here?
> 
> Im here.

Great, now we're up to three people again :) (weren't we the original 
three?)

> > - The installer is still not user-friendly (no hardware detection)
> Good point.  I hate the debian install.  It drags me back to the days 
when I
> was using redhat 4.  or caldera 1.3.  Its just so old.  By making a 
version
> that is easy to install we would automaticly have a huge fanbase from 
debian
> users, and the deb dist could expand to newbies.  Hows this for and 
idea.
> Steps to install
> 1. Download small(100k or so) download manager.
> 2. Decide the components you want, it downloads them, then creates 
images to
> burn.
> 3. By deciding everything before the images are created it could 
autoinstall
> without any imput during install.

That is basically what you do with Debian right now--you grab two 
installer disks or an ISO image, dd them onto floppies (or burn the ISO 
onto a CD), reboot with the disk in and then install over the internet. 
The mininal progeny installer disk is something like 90MB, so I might 
just build my own mini install disk that actually fetches the installer 
(I can use the bf2.4.18 debian disks as a base for this).

> > Basically just tweak Debian to make it slightly nicer. Contributing 
all
> > of our changes (except for the updated packages because those would
> > already be in unstable) back to Debian would be a good idea too.
> Sounds great.  We could mkae it look nicer, but also strip it down.  
There
> is so much junk and legacy software on dists.  I hate downloading and
> installing 900meg dists.  Its ridiculous.  Do I need 17 email 
programs, or 5
> browsers?  A striped down version would be much better for newbies, 
but by
> having apt-get or custumized downloads as mentioned above, any 
poweruser or
> hacker could get the programs he wants easily and quickly.

Just because the programs are there doesn't mean you have to install 
them. I agree that the default install shouldn't include all of them, 
but then again the current Debian installer doesn't do that either. One 
of the things we should do is create a few new meta-packages (or task 
packages, which I believe are harder to make now because they are 
automagically generated from the Task: field of normal packages) for 
common profiles like developer, server (maybe not...), desktop, etc. 
and allow the person doing the install do choose from one of those and )
optionally) refine their selections using dselect of deity.

> > So, does anyone want to start work on the distribution again? I'll 
start
> > on the install disks soon if anyone wants to help with the rest.
> Im in.  Graduation from High School is next month and Ill be free to 
work on

I've started to work on the install disks, sort of (mainly just messing 
around with pgi). Using Pgi would give us a working installer in no 
time at all, and allow us to do all the cool stuff using configlets 
during the second stage install. I guess its time to read those Python 
docs...(unless someone wants to hack pgi into our own installer and use 
something like Scheme instead).

I'm working on the install kernel right now. I want to get a good 
kernel config and after that write a shell script to automagically 
generate optimized kernels for every architecture. I suggest everyone 
look at the GCC 3.1 changes @ gcc.gnu.org--mainly the section on the 
new optimizations. I want to build p4 and k6-2 kernels as well as ones 
with 3dnow!, MMX, MMX2, etc support (which will require hacking of 
arch/i386/config.in). But that is for later. 

I also want to apply a few patches, namely the low latency patch, 
resier fs patch, and imon patch. Does anyone have any objections? The 
imon patch speeds up fam (that e17 makes heavy use of...I also want to 
included e17 CVS debs since the e17 cvs source has the debian dirs 
already there). I do a bit of audio recording, so the low latency 
patches make sense, and generically improve the "feel" of the system 
(even if they slightly reduce overall performance). Reiserfs is for 
obvious reasons (even though I use ext3, others like reiser). Does 
anyone wants any other patches applied? (if this paragraph makes no 
sense, it is because my sister is bitching at me right now to get off 
the net so she can talk to her friends [she's on the phone too..argh]).

> it.  Im sorry but I forgot who our web designer was, but since we will
> undoubtably completly change the project, Im willing to redesign the 
site
> and be webmaster in addition to helping with the dist.  Ive got a lot 
of
> free time and can make a pretty cool site.

I think Dustin was the webmaster (the site says he is at least).

> -Mike Church(aka the_micea, aka lastcode, aka compugod)

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

> As for re-awakening Mentalinux.  Well, sure, what the
> heck!!  At the moment, I won't be able to do too much
> interms of install and system debugging and stuff, because
> I don't have the hard drive space.  But, that should change
> in the next few months.  
> 
> Now, as for getting stuff like xfree4.2, and kde3.0 ported
> to debian, sure.  And finally doing the development we've
> thought about in the past would be fun.

There wouldn't really be any porting, just rebuilding the packages on a 
Debian woody system and maybe some tweaking of the control files to 
make them have correct dependencies. I also want to include a few 
extras with Mentalinux Debian (e.g. public domain fonts, bleeding edge 
CVS versions of stuff like XINE, etc).

> Now, for my idea's...
> The way I see it, is we can do this too ways.  Mentalinux
> like we originally planned, with debian as it's base, and
> making it pretty, or use the Mentalinux idea, and make
> something like a virtual distribution that would be
> distribution independant.  What I mean by that is
> developing the installer and all the apps in a way that
> could be easily built, and installed on any distro.  In
> other words, Mentalinux wouldn't be a debian distro per say
> (I'm not saying we abandon that Idea, im saying we don't
> stop there), but rather a structure that could be built
> over debian, redhat, mdk, gentoo, suse, slackware, or
> whatever. How we would do this, im not entirely sure, but
> hey, its just an idea right!

Maybe writing the mentalinux packager (or maybe a better name of meta-
packager since it would be a meta-packager :) after all would be a good 
idea, but not for a while. I was also thinking about writing some 
Autoconf and Automake macros to automate the building of packages 
(rpms, slp, debs, etc) from any autconf project that uses the macros 
(e.g. ./configure --[debian-package | rpm-package | slackware-package | 
stampede-package]). I might do that over the summer (maybe not because 
I _really_ need a job so I can pay for drivers ed [I could have gotten 
my license 8 months ago :-\ but I have to pay for drivers ed, half of 
the $1700 in repairs on the truck I'll be driving, and some other stuff 
so I can learn responsobility or something]).

> In any case, I willing to help out, but between my Gentoo
> tweaks, working at Lycoris, and this, I might not be the
> fastest developer!!!

Doesn't really matter--any help would be great. Your Gentoo tweaking 
could be a good thing; if you have any interesting configuration files 
we could use those for the mentalinux defaults.

> Sounds cool, and I'm gonna help out if it does come
> through, even if it doesn't, I'll start working on it!!!

I'm reading the pgi manual now, and should have a semi-working 
installer in a week or so (I have to make a kernel package that would 
work on machines other than mine so that pgi can use it--this is really 
easy with make-kpkg, but I have to edit the control files to give it a 
different name so it is slightly less easy now :).

-- 
unknown_lamer (not at home)

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