Re: [matplotlib-devel] Plot or Not: voting to create better matplotlibrc

[David P. S. <dps...@ci...>]

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 7:38 PM, David P. Sanders <
dps...@ci...> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 5:36 PM, <
> mat...@li...> wrote:
>
>> Send Matplotlib-devel mailing list submissions to
>>         mat...@li...
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>>         mat...@li...
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Plot or Not: voting to create better  matplotlibrc
>>       (Adrian Price-Whelan)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 18:36:42 -0400
>> From: Adrian Price-Whelan <adr...@gm...>
>> Subject: Re: [matplotlib-devel] Plot or Not: voting to create better
>>         matplotlibrc
>> To: mat...@li...
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAEUL7mENjKC4ZYeSsm+7Yq7h4oYiA1nMPKi=
>> E9p...@ma...>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Definitely don't link from matplotlib. This was a fun hack put together to
>> get people talking about re-styling -- success!
>>
>>
> OK, sorry for the noise. The site is beautiful and functional, and I'm
> very glad that you got the discussion flowing!
>
>
> I have to echo Chris' disappointment about the discussion of defaults in
>> MPL. While there are certainly many subjective elements of style and
>> design, there are also a number of rules that the default settings violate
>> (as Chris mentions below). The way I interpret the push-back to replacing
>> the defaults is: "there are too many better alternatives that we will
>> never
>> agree upon, so let's just keep what's there." To 0th order, just pick one!
>> Fixing the few things that Chris mentions below will go a long way to
>> modernizing the MPL feel and experience. There many other things I would
>> like to change about the defaults, but maybe the right thing to do is just
>> issue a pull request so we can discuss on there?
>>
>
> I agree about the defaults, we desperately need to modernize the look of
> the plots to be competitive with ggplot2 etc.
>
>
>>
>> As a longer term idea, I propose:
>> - normalize what can and can't be modified with an rc file -- right now,
>> it's kind of all over the place
>>
>
> I really do object to the 'rc' terminology.
> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_commands:
>
> > The term *rc* stands for the phrase "*run commands*". It is used for
> any file that contains startup information for a
> > command. It is believed to have originated somewhere in 1965
>
> And this is my problem with 'rc':  it brings to mind an arcane config file
> hidden away somewhere that has a terrible syntax and must not be touched.
>
> As Chris and Adrian have emphasized, the point is that we *should* be
> tweaking away at the parameters all the time.
> I propose to rename as  mpl_params=rcParams
>
> At https://gist.github.com/dpsanders/6047005 I have uploaded a short
> script which should be added to the matplotlib documentation, where I show
> how it looks to use mpl_params.
> I think it is much clearer and more inviting to tweak!
>

Sorry, I meant to send the nbviewer version, and call it a notebook, not a
script!

http://nbviewer.ipython.org/6047005

David


>
> David.
>
>
>
>>
>> then:
>> - each plot in the matplotlib gallery should have a drop-down menu with
>> ~3-5 style options
>> - these options can be named or whatever, but should be complete
>> matplotlibrc files that can either be a) shipped with matplotlib, or b)
>> very easily downloaded and installed (think:
>>  matplotlib.rc_install('name-of-style'))
>> - on each gallery entry page, selecting an option from the drop-down
>> should
>> show the same plot made with the specified rc style
>>
>> I'm happy to help implement this stuff, but I think this would be a
>> tremendous resource to the community.
>>
>> And if you decide to reject everything from this email, *please* at least
>> change the default colormap :) #downwithJet
>>
>> - Adrian
>>
>> From: Chris Beaumont <bea...@ha...>
>> > Date: Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 5:47 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Plot or Not: voting to create better matplotlibrc
>> > To: mat...@li...
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I thought I'd chime in on this discussion -- Adrian Price-Whelan and I
>> put
>> > together plotornot during the SciPy sprints.
>> >
>> > I wouldn't advocate for linking to plotornot from matplotlib -- the idea
>> > is semi tongue-in-cheek, and meant to gauge to what extent there is
>> > consensus about plot styles. It's not set up to teach about rcParams,
>> nor
>> > does it systematically explore all possible styles. The votes (>10K,
>> last I
>> > checked) are saved, and eventually Adrian or I will look over the
>> feedback
>> > and report back to you all. I haven't had time for that yet. I hope the
>> > name didn't *actually* offend anyone.
>> >
>> > At the risk of sounding unappreciative of MPL (which I love, and rely
>> upon
>> > daily), I must admit I was disheartened after hearing the MPL devs at
>> SciPy
>> > discuss styles and defaults. I understand that you don't want to change
>> the
>> > default styles without a clearly better alternative. I also understand
>> > that, to some extent, style preferences are subjective. However, there
>> > seemed to be quite a bit of resistance to the idea that MPL defaults
>> should
>> > change *at all.*
>> >
>> > Even if you ignore the subjective component of this (which I think is a
>> > mistake, since in my experience there is broad consensus that projects
>> like
>> > ggplot2, d3, tableau, and spotfire do a "better" job than MPL at
>> styling),
>> > there are some well-established visual principles that matplotlib
>> violates.
>> > Some of my biggest pet peeves are:
>> >
>> > 1) The default 'axes.color_cycle' values should be equally visible, with
>> > similar luminance values. The current defaults (bgrcmyk) do not have
>> this
>> > property -- c and y are harder to see, and thus carry less visual
>> emphasis.
>> > A color table like the "Dark2" color brewer table (
>> > http://learnr.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/colours-dark2.png,
>> > colorbrewer2.org) is more uniform, and carefully designed for
>> visibility
>> > and contrast. 'rgbcmyk' is clearly an arbitrary choice -- why not use a
>> > smarter default?
>> >
>> > 2) The default 'jet' colormap for images has a lot of poor properties
>> > (which is even mentioned on the MPL docs at
>> > http://matplotlib.org/api/pyplot_summary.html#id1). The brain is bad at
>> > ordering changes in hue (which is bigger -- purple or yellow?), and
>> better
>> > at ordering changes in intensity or saturation. A colleague of mine
>> > designed a visualization tool for doctors, and found that the rainbow
>> color
>> > table had a dramatic negative effect on the effectiveness of the tool
>> (you
>> > can watch her TED talk about this at
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU7veyGGps4&t=440s). The jet default is
>> > especially frustrating, since it *cannot* be modified via rcParams
>> >
>> > 3) Some of the defaults violate Tufte principles like minimizing "chart
>> > junk." For example, the 'stepfilled' mode for hist is probably better
>> than
>> > the default, which draws vertical lines between every bin. Those lines
>> make
>> > the histogram noisier -- do they convey any extra information? Again,
>> this
>> > can't be tweaked via rcParams.
>> >
>> > Sorry for being long-winded -- I just want to make the case that this is
>> > an important (and not *entirely* subjective) issue. If nothing else, it
>> > would be great to see some clear statement about where the MPL devs
>> stand
>> > on this issue -- what criteria must be met to consider a change to the
>> > defaults? My apologies if such a document already exists somewhere!
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Chris Beaumont
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 3:03 PM, <
>> > mat...@li...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Send Matplotlib-devel mailing list submissions to
>> >>         mat...@li...
>> >>
>> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >>         mat...@li...
>> >>
>> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >>         mat...@li...
>> >>
>> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >> than "Re: Contents of Matplotlib-devel digest..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Today's Topics:
>> >>
>> >>    1. Re: Plot or Not: voting to create better  matplotlibrc
>> >>       (Eric Firing)
>> >>    2. Re: How to use STIX fonts in matplotlib plots? (Eric Firing)
>> >>    3. Re: Plot or Not: voting to create better  matplotlibrc
>> >>       (Benjamin Root)
>> >>    4. Re: How to use STIX fonts in matplotlib plots? (Benjamin Root)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 08:20:11 -1000
>> >> From: Eric Firing <ef...@ha...>
>> >> Subject: Re: [matplotlib-devel] Plot or Not: voting to create better
>> >>         matplotlibrc
>> >> To: mat...@li...
>> >> Message-ID: <51E...@ha...>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> >>
>> >> On 2013/07/20 4:18 AM, David P. Sanders wrote:
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > Probably many of you know about "Plot or Not", a site where we vote
>> on
>> >> > the same plot presented in different ways, to get feedback about
>> better
>> >> > matplotlibrc params:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://warm-escarpment-9042.herokuapp.com/
>> >> >
>> >> > It seems to me an absolutely fantastic idea! I think many people do
>> not
>> >> > realise how fantastic the plots can look with some of this modern
>> >> > styling. (Styling was mentioned several times at SciPy.)
>> >> >
>> >> > Would it be possible to put a link to this site on the matplotlib web
>> >> > page and encourage people to use it?
>> >>
>> >> David,
>> >>
>> >> Interesting, but I'm not sure this is a good approach.  I really don't
>> >> see the point of the voting.  What I think would be more useful would
>> be
>> >> a set of matplotlibrc files with examples of their effect on at least a
>> >> few plot types.
>>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Definitely time to update the defaults!!
>> >>
>> >> Or maybe include a representative set of rcParams combinations to make
>> >> it easier for people to choose a design that suits their purpose.  This
>> >> could be part of a toolkit.
>> >>
>> >> Eric
>>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Best wishes,
>> >> > David.
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Dr. David P. Sanders
>> >> >
>> >> > Profesor Titular "A" / Associate Professor
>> >> > Departamento de F?sica, Facultad de Ciencias
>> >> > Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico (UNAM)
>> >> >
>> >> > dps...@ci... <mailto:dps...@ci...>
>> >> > http://sistemas.fciencias.unam.mx/~dsanders
>> >> > <http://sistemas.fciencias.unam.mx/%7Edsanders>
>> >> >
>> >> > Cub?culo / office: #414, 4o. piso del Depto. de F?sica
>>
>> >> > Tel.: +52 55 5622 4965
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
>> >> > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from
>> AppDynamics
>> >> > Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
>> >> > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> >> > Mat...@li...
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 2
>> >> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 08:55:37 -1000
>> >> From: Eric Firing <ef...@ha...>
>> >> Subject: Re: [matplotlib-devel] How to use STIX fonts in matplotlib
>> >>         plots?
>> >> To: mat...@li...
>> >> Message-ID: <51E...@ha...>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >>
>> >> On 2013/07/20 4:41 AM, David P. Sanders wrote:
>> >> > I find the default font used in matplotlib horrible. We should be
>> able
>> >> > to do much better these days.
>> >>
>> >> Which font is being used as default on your installation?  And what are
>> >> the characteristics that earn the rating of "horrible"?
>> >>
>> >> Eric
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 3
>> >> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 14:58:12 -0400
>> >> From: Benjamin Root <ben...@ou...>
>> >> Subject: Re: [matplotlib-devel] Plot or Not: voting to create better
>> >>         matplotlibrc
>> >> To: Eric Firing <ef...@ha...>
>> >> Cc: matplotlib development list
>> >>         <mat...@li...>
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >>         <CANNq6F=pdWohTRYLqEkG3oy6VoWYJ=
>> >> c4Q...@ma...>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >>
>> >> >From discussions with others at SciPy, we found ourselves disagreeing
>> on
>> >> what default we would want. We also weren't sure exactly which params
>> were
>> >> the ones that people tended to change. We have zero data on this. This
>> >> site
>> >> is intended to help start that data collection process.
>> >>
>> >> We can certainly improve this site to collect other kinds of info, but
>> >> this
>> >> is just a start. One could also view this as a launching point for
>> >> teaching
>> >> how to use rcParams (sorry David, i kinda like that name) in mpl. You
>> all
>> >> know I never let a good teaching moment go to waste!
>> >>
>> >> As for linking from matplotlib.org, I am ambivalent. It is a bit
>> >> gimmicky,
>> >> and I do worry about being counterproductive to efforts in SciPy to be
>> >> more
>> >> inclusive of women (given the rather anti-feministic undertones of the
>> >> site
>> >> we are parodying). Of course, that could just be me being overly
>> cautious.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers!
>> >> Ben Root
>> >> On Jul 20, 2013 2:20 PM, "Eric Firing" <ef...@ha...> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> > On 2013/07/20 4:18 AM, David P. Sanders wrote:
>> >> > > Hi,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Probably many of you know about "Plot or Not", a site where we
>> vote on
>> >> > > the same plot presented in different ways, to get feedback about
>> >> better
>> >> > > matplotlibrc params:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > http://warm-escarpment-9042.herokuapp.com/
>> >> > >
>> >> > > It seems to me an absolutely fantastic idea! I think many people do
>> >> not
>> >> > > realise how fantastic the plots can look with some of this modern
>> >> > > styling. (Styling was mentioned several times at SciPy.)
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Would it be possible to put a link to this site on the matplotlib
>> web
>> >> > > page and encourage people to use it?
>> >> >
>> >> > David,
>> >> >
>> >> > Interesting, but I'm not sure this is a good approach.  I really
>> don't
>> >> > see the point of the voting.  What I think would be more useful
>> would be
>> >> > a set of matplotlibrc files with examples of their effect on at
>> least a
>> >> > few plot types.
>>
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Definitely time to update the defaults!!
>> >> >
>> >> > Or maybe include a representative set of rcParams combinations to
>> make
>> >> > it easier for people to choose a design that suits their purpose.
>>  This
>> >> > could be part of a toolkit.
>> >> >
>> >> > Eric
>>
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Best wishes,
>> >> > > David.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Dr. David P. Sanders
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Profesor Titular "A" / Associate Professor
>> >> > > Departamento de F?sica, Facultad de Ciencias
>> >> > > Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico (UNAM)
>> >> > >
>> >> > > dps...@ci... <mailto:dps...@ci...>
>> >> > > http://sistemas.fciencias.unam.mx/~dsanders
>> >> > > <http://sistemas.fciencias.unam.mx/%7Edsanders>
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Cub?culo / office: #414, 4o. piso del Depto. de F?sica
>>
>> >> > > Tel.: +52 55 5622 4965
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
>> >> > > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from
>> AppDynamics
>> >> > > Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
>> >> > > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> >> > > Mat...@li...
>> >> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
>> >> > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from
>> AppDynamics
>> >> > Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
>> >> > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> >> > Mat...@li...
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>> >> >
>> >> -------------- next part --------------
>> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 4
>> >> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:03:20 -0400
>> >> From: Benjamin Root <ben...@ou...>
>> >> Subject: Re: [matplotlib-devel] How to use STIX fonts in matplotlib
>> >>         plots?
>> >> To: "David P. Sanders" <dps...@ci...>
>> >> Cc: matplotlib development list
>> >>         <mat...@li...>
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >>         <CANNq6Fm0Oz=
>> >> 3uk...@ma...>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >>
>> >> David,
>> >>
>> >> IIRC, we were just starting to investigate how to produce retina
>> graphics.
>> >> Perhaps you might be able to help Mike D and Michael de Hoon with there
>> >> efforts because very few of us have retina displays.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers!
>> >> Ben Root
>> >> On Jul 20, 2013 10:43 AM, "David P. Sanders" <
>> dps...@ci...>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I find the default font used in matplotlib horrible. We should be
>> able
>> >> to
>> >> > do much better these days.
>> >> >
>> >> > One very interesting option, at least for standard (paper)
>> publishing,
>> >> is
>> >> > the STIX fonts, which is a Times-like font set promoted by several
>> >> > publishers.
>> >> >
>> >> > There are various options in matplotlib, such as
>> >> > matplotlib.rcParams["mathtext.fontset"], which allow the option
>> "stix",
>> >> > but I have not been able to get it to work. Can anybody please help
>> me
>> >> with
>> >> > this -- what is required?
>> >> >
>> >> > I have the STIX otf or ttf installed on my Mac, but I don't seem to
>> >> manage
>> >> > to get the LaTeX versions installed -- installing LaTeX fonts is *so*
>> >> > disgusting (is there some helper script for that?).
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks and best wishes,
>>
>> >> > David.
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Dr. David P. Sanders
>> >> >
>> >> > Profesor Titular "A" / Associate Professor
>> >> > Departamento de F?sica, Facultad de Ciencias
>> >> > Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico (UNAM)
>> >> >
>> >> > dps...@ci...
>> >> > http://sistemas.fciencias.unam.mx/~dsanders
>> >> >
>> >> > Cub?culo / office: #414, 4o. piso del Depto. de F?sica
>>
>> >> >
>> >> > Tel.: +52 55 5622 4965
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
>> >> > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from
>> AppDynamics
>> >> > Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
>> >> > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> >> > Mat...@li...
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> -------------- next part --------------
>> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
>> >> Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
>> >> Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
>> >> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> >> Mat...@li...
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> End of Matplotlib-devel Digest, Vol 86, Issue 17
>> >> ************************************************
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ************************************
>> > Chris Beaumont
>> > Graduate Student
>> > Institute for Astronomy
>> > University of Hawaii at Manoa
>> > 2680 Woodlawn Drive
>> > Honolulu, HI 96822
>> > www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~beaumont
>> > ************************************
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ************************************
>> > Chris Beaumont
>> > Graduate Student
>> > Institute for Astronomy
>> > University of Hawaii at Manoa
>> > 2680 Woodlawn Drive
>> > Honolulu, HI 96822
>> > www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~beaumont
>> > ************************************
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Adrian M. Price-Whelan ~ Columbia University ~ http://adrian.pw
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
>> Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
>> Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
>> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> Mat...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>>
>>
>> End of Matplotlib-devel Digest, Vol 86, Issue 19
>> ************************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. David P. Sanders
>
> Profesor Titular "A" / Associate Professor
> Departamento de Física, Facultad de Ciencias
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México (UNAM)
>
> dps...@ci...
> http://sistemas.fciencias.unam.mx/~dsanders
>
> Cubículo / office: #414, 4o. piso del Depto. de Física
>
> Tel.: +52 55 5622 4965
>



-- 
Dr. David P. Sanders

Profesor Titular "A" / Associate Professor
Departamento de Física, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México (UNAM)

dps...@ci...
http://sistemas.fciencias.unam.mx/~dsanders

Cubículo / office: #414, 4o. piso del Depto. de Física

Tel.: +52 55 5622 4965