Re: [atlas-devel] ATLAS license discussion, please
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Re: [atlas-devel] ATLAS license discussion, please
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From: José L. G. P. <jgp...@gm...> - 2011-09-04 17:18:01
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2011/9/4 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <zn...@bo...>: > It sounds like you and whoever the "entity" are that's behind ATLAS > need to have a discussion with an attorney, and perhaps an accountant. > As a user, I hate "academic licenses" (free in binary form to academic > users but paid for by "commercial" users), but the reality of today's > world is that an academic license or some form of similar license > might be the best way to proceed with ATLAS, But this type of license will make ATLAS not free software >especially since you've > broadened the scope of it to the growing ARM platform. Maybe there > needs to be an "ATLAS Linear Algebra" foundation. > > It really *is* about money, even if you want to think it's about > "freedom". There are hidden costs of "free as in beer". People who > develop quality software like ATLAS deserve to be paid just as much as > the attorneys and accountants who fight over it and the sales reps who > sell it. ;-) > > On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:13 AM, Clint Whaley <wh...@cs...> wrote: >> John, >> >>>You might look at the C++ Boost licence, this is specifically designed to allow >>>both free use of the Boost library, Standardisation of the intellectual content, >>>and commercialisation. >> >> Hmm. I see no mention of patents at all, and what I do see does not seem >> at all different from the present BSD license. If there is a more modern >> version of this license, can you link directly to it? >> >>>If you take the GNU path you're >>>*endorsing* the kind of legal system that also supports software >>>patents and authoritarianism. >> >> You will have explain that, because I truly see no logical way to reach >> that conclusion. >> >>>GNU chose to leverage the legal system >>>to satisfy its primary goal: open-ness. GNU licences are not, by >>>any stretch of the imagination, supporting "free" software as in >>>"freedom of use for any purpose". >> >> I agree, they put restrictions on usage to maintain openness and equal access. >> Camm (old ATLAS/debian maintainer) also mention that the GNU licenses are >> better because they assure poeple that pure parisitism will be illegal. >> Everyone can use the code, but everyone must submit their improvements >> back to the code base, so if you want to benefit from community development, >> you must also contribute to it. As I have been more involved with large >> US corporations, I have more come to see the necessity of this. >> >>>You must think: do you approve, for example, Apple taking BSD Unix >>>and making a proprietary product with it? >> >> I don't mind people using ATLAS in proprietary products, but I must admit >> I'd like to get some credit and I would hope they would contribute >> patches, etc., since they are benefiting from that work. >> >>>Do you approve Apple >>>being "forced" to throw out GNU Gcc support in favour of LLVM just >>>because of GNU's licence policy? >> >> Can you explain this? This is not the story as I know it, but I haven't >> studied it in detail. My understanding is the exact opposite: Apple >> *chose* to support LLVM because they did not want to follow the GNU license. >> >> Apple seems to have a long history of taking free software, but never >> giving back to it. I.e., they use your software in proprietary products, >> but they don't even give patches to the original authors. In those >> cases here they were compelled to give patches by the license, they >> gave code dumps that were not useful (going on a Konquerer mailing >> list discussion I read long ago). >> >> Then, Apple wrote their App store license in such a way as to incompatible >> with GNU license, and instead of fixing their app store terms, they decided >> to go full-bore against GNU. How do you get that they have been forced >> to do these things? >> >> In a world of individuals, I like the BSD license. When I first did ATLAS, >> I saw the world I lived in as primarily controlled by individuals. My >> experience these days is that much more of the academic and software >> worlds is controlled by corporations, which are by design sociopaths. >> Apple appears to me to be a primary example of this: suing everyone for >> BS like software & design patents, acquiring more patents to lock out >> others from compitition, using open source software but never giving >> back to it except where such a gift is to their exclusive benefit. >> >>>Now, the other thing to think about is: what possible litigation could arise? >>>ANY litigation is a major negative. You neither want to sue someone nor >>>be sued. >> >> Yes, I don't want to sue or be sued. However, I also don't want my software >> to help people who want to sue other people for anticompetitive BS. >> >>>By analogy, if you put software in which you claim intellectual property rights >>>on the Internet and do not provide a reasonable way of enforcing your >>>rights, it may at least be that you have violated your own ability to claim >>>any rights at all. After all, if I can simply download your software, without >>>signing a paper saying I read and accept the licence terms, >>>who is to say I have broken any laws? What if the download is done >>>by a robot? What if that robot is a system backup? >> >> I think the GNU folks have addressed this. They give a license to use >> their copyrighted works. If you don't accept the license, then you >> don't have the right to use their works, and since it is copyrighted, >> you know you need a license. >> >>>My point really is: what's the point of trying to enforce a copyright with >>>possible exemptions which in fact you not only cannot enforce due to >>>lack of funds .. but probably don't even want to enforce? >>> >>>It is generally considered that in the woeful US and European legal >>>systems you actually need a licence to prevent someone taking >>>your work, copyrighting it or patenting something YOU invented, >>>and then suing YOU for breaching their rights. >>> >>>Luckily, the primary motivation in such cases is commerical gain: if you're >>>not making a commercial gain or interfering with someone else making >>>one there are no grounds for a suit. >> >> I am also considering that in a world where many developers are controlled >> by sociopathic corporations, it is necessary to put restrictions on your >> software so that it is not used by those corporations to destroy the >> freedom of others to develop code. When they are willing to so nakedly >> restrain the freedom of others, it becomes more important to make sure >> your contributions do not help them destroy what you believe in. >> >> Thanks, >> Clint >>> >> Ed Borasky wrote: >> >> "My recommendation is >> to consult an attorney. He / she may advise creating an "entity" to >> house the intellectual property before devising a license." >> >> and there is much sense in that: a separate entity holding the >> property my provide your private assets some protection. >> >> If Google stole my software and commercialised it I'd be ecstatic! >> >> IMHO the major concern is not people doing math with your software, >> but people releasing a product (such as a programming language) >> which has the kind of licence THEY want. If you want such people to >> use your software you MUST provide the most liberal licence possible. >> >> For example if my programming language Felix were to incorporate >> Atlas as a "standard" component, your licence would have to be >> compatible with mine (BSD camp: my actual licence is FFAU: >> free for any use). Any GPL licence would conflict with that and exclude >> such use, at best I would be forced to distribute and build your product >> in a special way to ensure your software was kept "at arms length" >> from mine so your licence didn't pollute mine .. or simply not use >> your software. >> >> I have in fact spent considerable effort ensuring I did NOT incorporate >> any software polluted with Gnu licences. Unfortunate since some >> of it is very good. For example to utilise Gnu's Multiple precision >> arithmetic package I was forced to write the interface (header >> file equivalent) by hand, since generating one automatically >> from the C header would render the product "a derived work". >> A hand written interface supporting the required protocol is >> not a derived work because it is derived from the intellectual property >> but not the embodiment of it. >> >> >> The point here is to strongly consider indirect use of your product: >> it is OTHER people's licensing desires you need to think about when >> constructing your own, if you want your product to be widely used. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> john skaller >> sk...@us... >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Special Offer -- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE! >> Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better >> price-free! And you'll get a free "Love Thy Logs" t-shirt when you >> download Logger. Secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsisghtdev2dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Math-atlas-devel mailing list >> Mat...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/math-atlas-devel >> >> >> ************************************************************************** >> ** R. Clint Whaley, PhD ** Assist Prof, UTSA ** www.cs.utsa.edu/~whaley ** >> ************************************************************************** >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Special Offer -- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE! >> Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better >> price-free! And you'll get a free "Love Thy Logs" t-shirt when you >> download Logger. Secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsisghtdev2dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Math-atlas-devel mailing list >> Mat...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/math-atlas-devel >> > > > > -- > http://twitter.com/znmeb http://borasky-research.net > > "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems." -- Paul Erdős > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Special Offer -- Download ArcSight Logger for FREE! > Finally, a world-class log management solution at an even better > price-free! And you'll get a free "Love Thy Logs" t-shirt when you > download Logger. Secure your free ArcSight Logger TODAY! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/arcsisghtdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Math-atlas-devel mailing list > Mat...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/math-atlas-devel > -- ***************************************** José Luis García Pallero jgp...@gm... (o< / / \ V_/_ Use Debian GNU/Linux and enjoy! ***************************************** |