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From: Jaz <ja...@in...> - 2005-11-18 05:24:24
|
I'm having trouble copying Inbox'es from Courier-imap to Exchange 2003. The purpose is that some users are moving over to Exchange, so I need to move their imap Inbox. I've tried Exchange's Migration Wizard, and imapcopy, imapsync, and mailsync. But no joy. Excapt for mailsync, they all fail to connect to Courier on port 993/TLS. However, mailsync seems to connect ok (in Config#1, but #2 hangs), but it's telling me that Inbox is empty. Can anyone spot what I'm doing wrong? In the below two simulated attempts, the first would be handy so I can specify which user to sync -- but it hangs. The second tells me the folders are empty. When I executed this without the -s switch I got quite a bit more output, but the same [Mailbox is empty] and nothing was copied either direction. Ideas? -----Config#1------------------------ store cour { server {imap.mycompany.com/ssl/novalidate-cert/norsh} ref {imap.mycompany.com} pat INBOX.* } store exch { server {exchange.mycompany.com/ssl/novalidate-cert/norsh} ref {exchange.mycompany.com} pat INBOX.* } channel ce cour exch { msinfo .msinfo } -----Result#1------------------------ bash$ mailsync -s -d -v ce Only simulating Synchronizing stores "cour" <-> "exch"... Opening {imap.mycompany.com/ssl/novalidate-cert/norsh} with options 66 [Trying IP address [NON-IP]] [Courier-IMAP ready. Copyright 1998-2001 Double Precision, Inc. See COPYING for distribution information.] Authorizing against {imap.mycompany.com/imap} username: test password: Opening {exchange.mycompany.com/ssl/novalidate-cert/norsh} with options 66 [Trying IP address [NON-IP]] [Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 IMAP4rev1 server version 6.5.7638.1 (exchange.mycompany.com) ready.] Authorizing against {exchange.mycompany.com/imap} username: test password: Error: Protocol Error: "Command received without terminating <CR><LF> sequence". Error: Protocol Error: "Tag not found in command". -----Config#2------------------------- store cour { server {imap.mycompany.com/user=test/ssl/novalidate-cert/norsh} ref {imap.mycompany.com} pat INBOX.* prefix INBOX. passwd secret } store exch { server {exchange.mycompany.com/user=test/ssl/novalidate-cert/norsh} ref {exchange.mycompany.com} pat INBOX.* prefix INBOX. passwd secret } channel ce cour exch { msinfo {exchange.mycompany.com/user=test}INBOX.msinfo passwd secret } -----Result#2------------------------- bash$ mailsync -s -d -v ce Only simulating Synchronizing stores "cour" <-> "exch"... Opening {imap.mycompany.com/user=test/ssl/novalidate-cert/norsh} with options 66 [Trying IP address [NON-IP]] [Courier-IMAP ready. Copyright 1998-2001 Double Precision, Inc. See COPYING for distribution information.] Authorizing against {imap.mycompany.com/imap} Opening {exchange.mycompany.com/user=test/ssl/novalidate-cert/norsh} with options 66 [Trying IP address [NON-IP]] [Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 IMAP4rev1 server version 6.5.7638.1 (exchange.mycompany.com) ready.] Authorizing against {exchange.mycompany.com/imap} password: Items in store "cour": {imap.mycompany.com:993/imap/ssl/novalidate-cert/readonly/user="test"}<no_mailbox>{imap.mycompany.com}INBOX.Subfolder_foo, unmarked {imap.mycompany.com:993/imap/ssl/novalidate-cert/readonly/user="test"}<no_mailbox>{imap.mycompany.com}INBOX.Sent, marked Delimiter for store "cour" is '.' Using driver imap for store cour Items in store "exch": {exchange.mycompany.com:993/imap/ssl/novalidate-cert/readonly/user="test"}<no_mailbox>{exchange.mycompany.com}INBOX.msinfo Using driver imap for store exch Delimiter for store "exch" is '/' All seen mailboxes: in first store: Subfolder_foo Sent in second store: INBOX.msinfo Reading lasttime of channel "ce" [Trying IP address [NON-IP]] Authorizing against {exchange.mycompany.com/imap} [Trying IP address [NON-IP]] [Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 IMAP4rev1 server version 6.5.7638.1 (exchange.mycompany.com) ready.] Authorizing against {exchange.mycompany.com/imap} [Mailbox is empty] Store cour: Subfolder_foo(0) Sent(0) Store exch: INBOX.msinfo(0) [Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 IMAP4rev1 server version 6.5.7638.1 signing off.] Creating Subfolder_foo in exch Creating Sent in exch Creating INBOX.msinfo in cour [Courier-IMAP server shutting down] [Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 IMAP4rev1 server version 6.5.7638.1 signing off.] ----- |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-14 08:46:42
|
On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > > >On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Bill Kearney wrote: > > > [...] > >>Is there a way to use mailsync such that it moves the mail one-way instead > >>of syncing? As in, move everything "it can" from the uw-imap server over > >>to cyrus leave behind only the stuff it couldn't hande? > > I can't think of a trivial way. Changing the sourcecode would achieve this > of course... > You *can* move stuff only one way, I'm doing it. Here's my .mailsync file:- store home { pat Mail/ prefix Mail/ } store areti { pat areti/Mail/* prefix areti/Mail/ } channel atoh areti home { msinfo .msinfo } It moves mail only from areti to home because there are no mailboxes at the Mail level in my hierarchy. -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
From: Michael 'h. K. <ha...@kl...> - 2005-11-13 21:39:43
|
On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > > >On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Bill Kearney wrote: > > > [...] > >>Is there a way to use mailsync such that it moves the mail one-way instead > >>of syncing? As in, move everything "it can" from the uw-imap server over > >>to cyrus leave behind only the stuff it couldn't hande? > > I can't think of a trivial way. Changing the sourcecode would achieve this > of course... I take it the idea is how to do it once? Then, I think syncing up once with empty hiearchy with disabled message deletion should do the trick. Love, H > > >I'd try some half-automated search/replace such as load the mailbox into a > >text editor, find out what's wrong and let the editor half-automatically > >fix it (I'd use vim's "record/replay" functionality to achieve that) > > You might want to study the - admittedly - not so trivial c-client > documentation, maybe there's some way to achieve this. > *t > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------- > Tomas Pospisek > http://sourcepole.com - Linux & Open Source Solutions > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: > Tame your development challenges with Apache's Geronimo App Server. Download > it for free - -and be entered to win a 42" plasma tv or your very own > Sony(tm)PSP. Click here to play: http://sourceforge.net/geronimo.php > _______________________________________________ > Mailsync-list mailing list > Mai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mailsync-list > |
From: Bill K. <wke...@ho...> - 2005-11-13 21:34:29
|
>>Hi all, (is anyone around?) >According to the mailing list archive the last message was 4 days before... Ok, ya got me. I'm a bit rushed and things aren't going smoothly with this transition. >Try the debug and verbose switches of mailsync (mailsync --help), they >should give you quite some information about which message if being >processed. Yes, that has helped. It at least shows the message subjects (-m and -M) and that helped me narrow down where the main problems were. I pulled up a hex editor on one of the mailboxes and found some hex chars where they didn't belong. Lots of them, mainly clogged up the 2nd line of many messages. grep -P '\x13\x42' To see a list of them I used: grep -l -R -P '\x13\x42' ~/mail >I'd try some half-automated search/replace such as load the mailbox into a >text editor, find out what's wrong and let the editor half-automatically >fix it (I'd use vim's "record/replay" functionality to achieve that) Yep, some quick redirection into tmp files, just to have a safe fallback without resorting to the tar backups, and a good number of the seriously bad headers are fixed. Still having some import woes but at least more of the mail is making it across. >Even harder than mailsync's? /me is astonished Gotta love it. The c-client docs for remote mail folders is really a pain in the ass to figure out. Bits and pieces of it's syntax are spread all over the docs and source. I've managed to get most of it figured out though. Thanks! -Bill Kearney |
From: Bill K. <wke...@ho...> - 2005-11-13 21:27:31
|
>>>Is there a way to use mailsync such that it moves the mail one-way nstead >>>of syncing? As in, move everything "it can" from the uw-imap server over >>>to cyrus leave behind only the stuff it couldn't hande? > >I can't think of a trivial way. Changing the sourcecode would achieve this >of course... Heh, that you express it as non-trivial tells me it might not be worth it. >You might want to study the - admittedly - not so trivial c-client >documentation, maybe there's some way to achieve this. Now THERE'S an understatement. Meanwhile I'm investigating use of imapsync. It appears to have options for deleting and/or expunging during the process. But for regular syncing it looks like maiutil is a better choice. Nice to have the abundance of choices though! Thanks! |
From: Tomas P. <tp...@so...> - 2005-11-13 21:16:52
|
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Bill Kearney wrote: > Hi all, (is anyone around?) According to the mailing list archive the last message was 4 days before... > What's a good way to manage a mailbox that's got a ton of damaged headers? Don't know sorry. > That is, moving from a uw-imap server to one running cyrus. mailsync > reports a number of errors with damaged headers. I'd like to find the most > effective way to identify which messages are involved. Try the debug and verbose switches of mailsync (mailsync --help), they should give you quite some information about which message if being processed. > And eventually find a way to get the 'fixed enough' to let cyrus accept them. > Basically it appears an install of hotwayd (a pop daemon to pull from > hotmail) somehow managed to mangle a fair number of messages. Putting some > high-ascii gibberish in headers. I'm surprised uw-imap let me read them at > all but that's a different issue. > > Is there a way to use mailsync such that it moves the mail one-way instead > of syncing? As in, move everything "it can" from the uw-imap server over to > cyrus leave behind only the stuff it couldn't hande? I'd try some half-automated search/replace such as load the mailbox into a text editor, find out what's wrong and let the editor half-automatically fix it (I'd use vim's "record/replay" functionality to achieve that) > The uw-imap distribution comes with 'mailutil' that supposedly handles some > of this but it's syntax is rather difficult to master. Even harder than mailsync's? /me is astonished *t -- -------------------------------------------------------- Tomas Pospisek http://sourcepole.com - Linux & Open Source Solutions -------------------------------------------------------- |
From: Tomas P. <tp...@so...> - 2005-11-13 21:12:05
|
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Bill Kearney wrote: > [...] >> Is there a way to use mailsync such that it moves the mail one-way instead >> of syncing? As in, move everything "it can" from the uw-imap server over >> to cyrus leave behind only the stuff it couldn't hande? I can't think of a trivial way. Changing the sourcecode would achieve this of course... > I'd try some half-automated search/replace such as load the mailbox into a > text editor, find out what's wrong and let the editor half-automatically fix > it (I'd use vim's "record/replay" functionality to achieve that) You might want to study the - admittedly - not so trivial c-client documentation, maybe there's some way to achieve this. *t -- -------------------------------------------------------- Tomas Pospisek http://sourcepole.com - Linux & Open Source Solutions -------------------------------------------------------- |
From: Tomas P. <tp...@so...> - 2005-11-13 21:04:03
|
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Bill Kearney wrote: > Is it possible to tell mailsync to ignore a certain pattern of folders? No, but there's a patch for an older version of mailsync that could be enhanced to do this: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1075124&group_id=6374&atid=356374 *t -- -------------------------------------------------------- Tomas Pospisek http://sourcepole.com - Linux & Open Source Solutions -------------------------------------------------------- |
From: Bill K. <wke...@ho...> - 2005-11-12 15:28:02
|
Hi all, (is anyone around?) What's a good way to manage a mailbox that's got a ton of damaged headers? That is, moving from a uw-imap server to one running cyrus. mailsync reports a number of errors with damaged headers. I'd like to find the most effective way to identify which messages are involved. And eventually find a way to get the 'fixed enough' to let cyrus accept them. Basically it appears an install of hotwayd (a pop daemon to pull from hotmail) somehow managed to mangle a fair number of messages. Putting some high-ascii gibberish in headers. I'm surprised uw-imap let me read them at all but that's a different issue. Is there a way to use mailsync such that it moves the mail one-way instead of syncing? As in, move everything "it can" from the uw-imap server over to cyrus leave behind only the stuff it couldn't hande? The uw-imap distribution comes with 'mailutil' that supposedly handles some of this but it's syntax is rather difficult to master. Thoughts? Suggestions? -Bill Kearney |
From: Bill K. <wke...@ho...> - 2005-11-12 00:17:06
|
Is it possible to tell mailsync to ignore a certain pattern of folders? As in, everything in a given account except for things inside some folder. -Bill Kearney |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-08 10:39:58
|
On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 11:28:17AM +0100, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, Chris Green wrote: > > >Well I've got round to actually trying to get mailsync to do something > >for me - and it just hangs. > > You could try with some of the -v or -d options that show you what's going > on. It was actually just *very* slow, I'm not sure if this was because it was building its lists or what. It's actually still acceptable, even if it takes an hour or two to run what do I care as it'll be running overnight. After the couple of hours it took to run it looks like it did the right thing, transferred mail only one way and only transferred mail that was on the remote system and not on the local system. It seems I have a system that does what I want! :-) -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
From: Tomas P. <tp...@so...> - 2005-11-08 10:28:33
|
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, Chris Green wrote: > Well I've got round to actually trying to get mailsync to do something > for me - and it just hangs. You could try with some of the -v or -d options that show you what's going on. *t -- -------------------------------------------------------- Tomas Pospisek http://sourcepole.com - Linux & Open Source Solutions -------------------------------------------------------- |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-07 14:23:26
|
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 03:19:55PM +0100, Holger Krull wrote: > >What does this mean? Does it delete duplicate messages it finds in > >one store mailbox? > > I think so. > > >Will it delete a duplicate message found in a > >*different* mailbox? > > No. > > > >Does it only delete duplicate messages when > >actually doing a synchronise operation? > > Yes. > Thanks Holger! -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
From: Holger K. <hol...@gm...> - 2005-11-07 14:20:01
|
> What does this mean? Does it delete duplicate messages it finds in > one store mailbox? I think so. > Will it delete a duplicate message found in a > *different* mailbox? No. > Does it only delete duplicate messages when > actually doing a synchronise operation? Yes. |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-07 14:15:12
|
In the mailsync README file it says:- Mailsync deletes duplicate messages by default - assuming that they're the same. However if it finds multiple messages with empty Message-IDs it will display the message: "Not deleting duplicate message with empty Message-ID - see README" and leave that message alone, supposing that this is just another email produced by weird software. What does this mean? Does it delete duplicate messages it finds in one store mailbox? Will it delete a duplicate message found in a *different* mailbox? Does it only delete duplicate messages when actually doing a synchronise operation? -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-07 13:44:52
|
Well I've got round to actually trying to get mailsync to do something for me - and it just hangs. My .mailsync file is very simple:- store home { pat Mail/ prefix Mail/ } store areti { pat areti/Mail/* prefix areti/Mail/ } channel atoh areti home { msinfo .msinfo } The lack of a '*' on the home pat is intentional, I don't want any mail copied from home to areti, just from areti to home. When I run mailsync I get:- chris@server$ mailsync -n atoh Synchronizing stores "areti" <-> "home"... shopping/software/tesco: ... and that's it, it just hangs at that point. If I run "mailsync -s -n atoh" then it runs to completion with no problems. Should mailsync manage OK when the two mail hierarchies are mostly synchronised already? It seems like it's trying to do the right thing because tesco is one of the few places that will have mail that is on areti but not on home. -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-07 12:59:55
|
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 01:51:20PM +0100, Holger Krull wrote: > > >>>See http://shfs.sf.net > >>Thanks, that's certainly a possibility, I'd looked for utilities like > >>this before but not found them. > >> > >It's more than a possibility, I have FUSE and sshfs installed and > >working already, amazingly simple for something like that. I did a > >quick timing check to see how slow it is compared with a straight file > >copy using rsync (no existing files so it really was a copy):- > > > > rsync: 3m 48.661s > > sshfs: 10m 2.824s > > > >That's not half bad really, it's around 2.5 times as slow (this was > >copying about 32Mb of maildir hierarchy, e.g. lots of small files). > > If you do such a comparison, you should keep in mind that standard ssh has > a bandwith limit due to its 64K Window size. See > http://www.psc.edu/networking/projects/hpn-ssh/ > It was only a *very* approximate test as I didn't check what else was going on and it was across an ADSL link that could have had all sorts of things stopping and starting. As it is the result is quite acceptable for what I want to do. -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
From: Holger K. <hol...@gm...> - 2005-11-07 12:51:31
|
>>> See http://shfs.sf.net >> Thanks, that's certainly a possibility, I'd looked for utilities like >> this before but not found them. >> > It's more than a possibility, I have FUSE and sshfs installed and > working already, amazingly simple for something like that. I did a > quick timing check to see how slow it is compared with a straight file > copy using rsync (no existing files so it really was a copy):- > > rsync: 3m 48.661s > sshfs: 10m 2.824s > > That's not half bad really, it's around 2.5 times as slow (this was > copying about 32Mb of maildir hierarchy, e.g. lots of small files). If you do such a comparison, you should keep in mind that standard ssh has a bandwith limit due to its 64K Window size. See http://www.psc.edu/networking/projects/hpn-ssh/ So if higher speed is needed a patched sshd could help. |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-07 12:46:29
|
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 11:45:54AM +0000, Chris Green wrote: > On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 12:29:40PM +0100, tp...@so... wrote: > > Zitat von Chris Green <ch...@ar...>: > > > > > Having looked into this I have come to the following conclusion. > > > > > > Mailsync only works 'with ssh' to a remote IMAP server, I'm pretty > > > sure it can't access an ordinary mbox (or other) hierarchy on a remote > > > machine by using ssh. > > > > > > I *think* the example in the examples documentation is just that, > > > accessing a remote mh mailbox system which happens to have an IMAP > > > server using the mh hierarchy. > > > > > > If anyone can point me to some documentation and/or help suggesting > > > otherwise then I'd be very pleased to know about it. > > > > What about accessing the remote files through shfs or fuse? > > > > * mount the remount machine through shfs or fuse > > * access it like it were local > > > > It's probably going to be a bandwidth killer though, so it might not be > > practicable... > > > > See http://shfs.sf.net > > Thanks, that's certainly a possibility, I'd looked for utilities like > this before but not found them. > It's more than a possibility, I have FUSE and sshfs installed and working already, amazingly simple for something like that. I did a quick timing check to see how slow it is compared with a straight file copy using rsync (no existing files so it really was a copy):- rsync: 3m 48.661s sshfs: 10m 2.824s That's not half bad really, it's around 2.5 times as slow (this was copying about 32Mb of maildir hierarchy, e.g. lots of small files). I can live with that sort of speed as the backup/archiving can run as a cron job in the middle of the night. So it's back to mbox and then getting mailsync to do what I want between two 'local' directories. Thanks again for the idea. -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
From: Michael 'h. K. <ha...@kl...> - 2005-11-07 12:23:24
|
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 11:07:45AM +0000, Chris Green wrote: > Having looked into this I have come to the following conclusion. > > Mailsync only works 'with ssh' to a remote IMAP server, I'm pretty > sure it can't access an ordinary mbox (or other) hierarchy on a remote > machine by using ssh. Yes, ssh is just a transport used to connect to /etc/rimapd or whatever that is. > I *think* the example in the examples documentation is just that, > accessing a remote mh mailbox system which happens to have an IMAP > server using the mh hierarchy. true. Love, H |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-07 11:45:58
|
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 12:29:40PM +0100, tp...@so... wrote: > Zitat von Chris Green <ch...@ar...>: > > > Having looked into this I have come to the following conclusion. > > > > Mailsync only works 'with ssh' to a remote IMAP server, I'm pretty > > sure it can't access an ordinary mbox (or other) hierarchy on a remote > > machine by using ssh. > > > > I *think* the example in the examples documentation is just that, > > accessing a remote mh mailbox system which happens to have an IMAP > > server using the mh hierarchy. > > > > If anyone can point me to some documentation and/or help suggesting > > otherwise then I'd be very pleased to know about it. > > What about accessing the remote files through shfs or fuse? > > * mount the remount machine through shfs or fuse > * access it like it were local > > It's probably going to be a bandwidth killer though, so it might not be > practicable... > > See http://shfs.sf.net Thanks, that's certainly a possibility, I'd looked for utilities like this before but not found them. -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
From: <tp...@so...> - 2005-11-07 11:29:57
|
Zitat von Chris Green <ch...@ar...>: > Having looked into this I have come to the following conclusion. > > Mailsync only works 'with ssh' to a remote IMAP server, I'm pretty > sure it can't access an ordinary mbox (or other) hierarchy on a remote > machine by using ssh. > > I *think* the example in the examples documentation is just that, > accessing a remote mh mailbox system which happens to have an IMAP > server using the mh hierarchy. > > If anyone can point me to some documentation and/or help suggesting > otherwise then I'd be very pleased to know about it. What about accessing the remote files through shfs or fuse? * mount the remount machine through shfs or fuse * access it like it were local It's probably going to be a bandwidth killer though, so it might not be practicable... See http://shfs.sf.net *t ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. |
From: Chris G. <ch...@ar...> - 2005-11-07 11:08:06
|
Having looked into this I have come to the following conclusion. Mailsync only works 'with ssh' to a remote IMAP server, I'm pretty sure it can't access an ordinary mbox (or other) hierarchy on a remote machine by using ssh. I *think* the example in the examples documentation is just that, accessing a remote mh mailbox system which happens to have an IMAP server using the mh hierarchy. If anyone can point me to some documentation and/or help suggesting otherwise then I'd be very pleased to know about it. -- Chris Green (ch...@ar...) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." |
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|
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From: Holger K. <hol...@gm...> - 2005-11-04 19:39:59
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Chris Green schrieb: > There's the UW (University of Washington) IMAP site. c-client comes > with UW-IMAP. Take a look at http://www.washington.edu/imap/, there's > certainly *some* stuff about c-client there. Finally. There is the c-client source and the faq comes with it. And now i understand what is meant by imap distribution. Now I try to figure out how i can avoid storing cleartext passwords in .mailsync. And i found this: >UNIX limitations: >Supported local file formats: mbx, mh, mmdf, mtx, mx, news, phile, tenex, > unix I wouldn't describe this as limited. > Thinking a bit further about this how does one specify the stores at > each end? If I have a wildcard for the remote system which is the > only one that will have new messages so I have:- > > pat Mail/* > prefix Mail > > Does the other end have to be identical or could I put:- I assume it should be identical, my imap config works that way. Backup and try... |