From: PCMan <pcm...@gm...> - 2011-08-14 11:52:21
|
I'm not sure what Lubuntu devs will do on this issue, but from the LXDE side, there is no plan for the migration at this moment. For now, migration to gtk3 brings much more problems and bugs with no visible benefit. XFCE also keeps using gtk2 in the near future. The Chromium browser, is going to use gtk2 for quite a long time, too. They needs to support some older commercial systems on which gtk3 is not available. For current applications used in LXDE, migration to gtk3 brings no benefit but the work needs to be done is very huge. The problems we will have after the migration: 1. PCManFM: desptop icons will be broken and this part needs some sort of rewrite for gtk3. In addition, some theming stuff uses gtk2 only features. 2. LibFM: this part still uses much GTK2 APIs. Though I already started the preperation for migration, this won't happen recently. As gtk3 now changed its user input handling and the change is not backward compatible, I'm not sure what bugs this will bring. 3. The XSettings daemon inside LXSession doesn't seem to be working for both gtk2 and gtk3 at the same time. 4. LXAppearance cannot configure gtk2/gtk3 at the same time. Technically it's not possible to make it work for both of them at the same time. 5. LXPanel is completely broken under gtk3. The work needs to fix the panel and port it to gtk3 is even more than developing a new panel. Hence, I plan to develop a new one based on gtk3 from scratch later. I will use libwnck at that time to avoid some low level X11 hacks. Some new widgets provided in gtk3 are useful for the new desktop panel. This could decrease much maintaince load and many unresolved bugs. I'll also do some UI redesign then. For now, migration to gtk3 for this one is 100% impossible and nobody is going to do it. 6. Migration of other components are possible, but since the major components still need more love, spending the time for migration to gtk3 for the least important components is pointless. 7. GTK+ 2 and gtk+ 3 modules are incompatible. So I'm not sure what will hapen to IM module (input method) after the migration. We will need two different IM modules. One for gtk2, and the other one is for gtk 3. Otherwise we cannot type non-English characters. 8. GTK2 and 3 programs can coexist, but this requires two librraries to be installed on the disk and loaded at runtime. Having a desktop environment composed by mixed gtk2/3 programs is a very bad idea since the resource usage is doubled for no additional benefit. This is not acceptable for LXDE. As most non-Gnome GTK+ based applications are not yet ported to gtk3, unless we're going to depend on gnome components, migration to gtk3 now brings harms only. To sum up, we're not going to do gtk3 migration in LXDE now. The reasonable timing for the migration is when XFCE and other non-Gnome programs, especially Chromium, which has many users, start the migration. Xubuntu will not use gtk3 this time, and it's really time for Lubuntu and others to think about the issue. |
From: Andrea F. <an...@op...> - 2011-08-14 16:19:35
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I do understand what you mean, actually most of the gtk3 porting work has been made. Actually only those packages doesn't build with gtk3: gpicview libfm pcmanfm lxmusic lxpanel everything else builds and seems to work fine. i wonder if lxappearance could be set up in a way that "if built with gtk2, i edit gtk2 configs, if built with gtk3 i edit gtk3 configs" that way, we don't need to make 2 versions. Il 14/08/2011 13:52, PCMan ha scritto: > I'm not sure what Lubuntu devs will do on this issue, but from the LXDE > side, there is no plan for the migration at this moment. For now, migration > to gtk3 brings much more problems and bugs with no visible benefit. XFCE > also keeps using gtk2 in the near future. > The Chromium browser, is going to use gtk2 for quite a long time, too. They > needs to support some older commercial systems on which gtk3 is not > available. For current applications used in LXDE, migration to gtk3 brings > no benefit but the work needs to be done is very huge. > > The problems we will have after the migration: > 1. PCManFM: desptop icons will be broken and this part needs some sort of > rewrite for gtk3. In addition, some theming stuff uses gtk2 only features. > 2. LibFM: this part still uses much GTK2 APIs. Though I already started the > preperation for migration, this won't happen recently. As gtk3 now changed > its user input handling and the change is not backward compatible, I'm not > sure what bugs this will bring. > 3. The XSettings daemon inside LXSession doesn't seem to be working for both > gtk2 and gtk3 at the same time. > 4. LXAppearance cannot configure gtk2/gtk3 at the same time. Technically > it's not possible to make it work for both of them at the same time. > 5. LXPanel is completely broken under gtk3. The work needs to fix the panel > and port it to gtk3 is even more than developing a new panel. Hence, I plan > to develop a new one based on gtk3 from scratch later. I will use libwnck at > that time to avoid some low level X11 hacks. Some new widgets provided in > gtk3 are useful for the new desktop panel. This could decrease much > maintaince load and many unresolved bugs. I'll also do some UI redesign > then. For now, migration to gtk3 for this one is 100% impossible and nobody > is going to do it. > 6. Migration of other components are possible, but since the major > components still need more love, spending the time for migration to gtk3 for > the least important components is pointless. > 7. GTK+ 2 and gtk+ 3 modules are incompatible. So I'm not sure what will > hapen to IM module (input method) after the migration. We will need two > different IM modules. One for gtk2, and the other one is for gtk 3. > Otherwise we cannot type non-English characters. > 8. GTK2 and 3 programs can coexist, but this requires two librraries to be > installed on the disk and loaded at runtime. Having a desktop environment > composed by mixed gtk2/3 programs is a very bad idea since the resource > usage is doubled for no additional benefit. This is not acceptable for LXDE. > As most non-Gnome GTK+ based applications are not yet ported to gtk3, unless > we're going to depend on gnome components, migration to gtk3 now brings > harms only. > > To sum up, we're not going to do gtk3 migration in LXDE now. The reasonable > timing for the migration is when XFCE and other non-Gnome programs, > especially Chromium, which has many users, start the migration. > > Xubuntu will not use gtk3 this time, and it's really time for Lubuntu and > others to think about the issue. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FREE DOWNLOAD - uberSVN with Social Coding for Subversion. > Subversion made easy with a complete admin console. Easy > to use, easy to manage, easy to install, easy to extend. > Get a Free download of the new open ALM Subversion platform now. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/wandisco-dev2dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lxde-list mailing list > Lxd...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lxde-list - -- - ------------------------------------------ Andrea Florio QSI International School of Brindisi Sys Admin CISCO CCNA Certified openSUSE-Education Administrator openSUSE-LXDE Administrator openSUSE Official Member (anubisg1) Email: an...@op... Packman Packaging Team Email: an...@li... Cell: +39-328-7365667 - ------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk5H9c0ACgkQyCZT87TFPujunQCfTrdk3Ky4dy7vQ9Ez5lgwLM0K ChgAoKDfGPq0eUsWBy0xB+jAPkQgP6v0 =OadZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: Julien L. <gi...@ub...> - 2011-08-15 13:50:47
|
On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:20:30 +0200 Andrea Florio <an...@op...> wrote: > Actually only those packages doesn't build with gtk3: > > gpicview libfm pcmanfm lxmusic lxpanel I made some local changes on gpicview, it should build with GTK3, but it's still not working (segfault on loading image). I'll commit it to trunk when I'll be back home. For lxmusic, somebody needs to do the work, as Lubuntu doesn't use lxmucic, we don't plan to work on it. Andrea, do you try to use GTK3 components on openSUSE ? For me, I had some improvements on CPU usage using lxtask GTK3, vs the GTK2 version. I wonder if you saw similar behavior on openSUSE ? Regards, Julien Lavergne |
From: Andrew L. <an...@li...> - 2011-08-14 17:48:54
|
2011/8/15 Andrea Florio <an...@op...>: > I do understand what you mean, actually most of the gtk3 porting work > has been made. Actually only those packages doesn't build with gtk3: > > gpicview libfm pcmanfm lxmusic lxpanel According to #8 from PCMan: GTK2 and 3 programs can coexist, but this requires two libraries to be installed on the disk and loaded at run time. This is not acceptable for LXDE. Unless there are enough benefits to migration to GTK3, I'd hold my package in GTK2 in Debian for now. -Andrew |
From: Andrea F. <an...@op...> - 2011-08-14 17:50:43
|
yes i fully agree.. all gtk2 or all gtk3 this is out of question Andrea 2011/8/14 Andrew Lee <an...@li...>: > 2011/8/15 Andrea Florio <an...@op...>: >> I do understand what you mean, actually most of the gtk3 porting work >> has been made. Actually only those packages doesn't build with gtk3: >> >> gpicview libfm pcmanfm lxmusic lxpanel > > According to #8 from PCMan: > GTK2 and 3 programs can coexist, but this requires two libraries > to be installed on the disk and loaded at run time. This is not > acceptable for LXDE. > > Unless there are enough benefits to migration to GTK3, I'd hold my > package in GTK2 in Debian for now. > > -Andrew > |
From: Julien L. <gi...@ub...> - 2011-08-15 13:44:19
|
On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:52:14 +0800 PCMan <pcm...@gm...> wrote: > I'm not sure what Lubuntu devs will (...) Ubuntu 11.10 will begin to use many programs build with GTK3. So, we will have to deal with GTK3, and it will be installed by default, and used. The original plan was to begin the port to GTK3 as many LXDE components as possible, to be able to build with GTK3 if necessary (the case of mixed GTK2 and GTK3). For now, fortunately, it will not be necessary (LXDE GTK2 works nice on Lubuntu 11.10). > The problems we will have after the migration: > 1. PCManFM: desptop icons will be broken and this part needs some sort of > rewrite for gtk3. In addition, some theming stuff uses gtk2 only features. > 2. LibFM: this part still uses much GTK2 APIs. Though I already started the > preperation for migration, this won't happen recently. As gtk3 now changed > its user input handling and the change is not backward compatible, I'm not > sure what bugs this will bring. Thanks for the information. > 3. The XSettings daemon inside LXSession doesn't seem to be working for both > gtk2 and gtk3 at the same time. Last time I tried, it was working. But you need a theme which is configured for GTK2 and GTK3. > 4. LXAppearance cannot configure gtk2/gtk3 at the same time. Technically > it's not possible to make it work for both of them at the same time. The only problem I saw when working on Lxappearance port to GTK3, is that it used deprecated API to reload windows. It should be solved by using Dbus for lxsession, with a call to reload the theme manager. I planned to work on this soon. > 5. LXPanel is completely broken under gtk3. The work needs to fix the panel > and port it to gtk3 is even more than developing a new panel. Hence, I plan > to develop a new one based on gtk3 from scratch later. I will use libwnck at > that time to avoid some low level X11 hacks. Some new widgets provided in > gtk3 are useful for the new desktop panel. This could decrease much > maintaince load and many unresolved bugs. I'll also do some UI redesign > then. For now, migration to gtk3 for this one is 100% impossible and nobody > is going to do it. Yes, LXpanel will be very difficult to port, and also, nobody want to maintain it. However, before starting to write a panel from scratch, maybe we should look at other panel applications. Many applications of this type exist, it's like music player, many people like to write one :) Regards, Julien Lavergne -- Julien Lavergne <gi...@ub...> |
From: Andrea F. <an...@op...> - 2011-08-16 09:02:38
|
2011/8/15 Julien Lavergne <gi...@ub...>: > On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:20:30 +0200 > Andrea Florio <an...@op...> wrote: > >> Actually only those packages doesn't build with gtk3: >> >> gpicview libfm pcmanfm lxmusic lxpanel > I made some local changes on gpicview, it should build with GTK3, but it's still not working (segfault on loading image). I'll commit it to trunk when I'll be back home. > That's good, thanks > For lxmusic, somebody needs to do the work, as Lubuntu doesn't use lxmucic, we don't plan to work on it. > Seriously? why don't contribute the the entire project? i guess that sentences like this one are making you loose some users.. that's a piece of an email i received recently from a former lubuntu user: "I got fed up with that Ubuntu way of treading on everything and looking only to its own interests that the Lubuntu developer started to show after his distribution received support from Canonical" and also "I was referring to the way Julien Lavergne started uploading broken code to the git repo and then just ignored the fixes." I believed we were working on a common project that is LXDE, and them, just customizing it to make it fit our distro specific needs.. but any way, that's not the place for such an argument. > Andrea, do you try to use GTK3 components on openSUSE ? For me, I had some improvements on CPU usage using lxtask GTK3, vs the GTK2 version. I wonder if you saw similar behavior on openSUSE ? > well, i actually tested it to check if there was any crash or issues, but i didn't pay much attention on that. I can try to give it a deeper look next time. What i actually saw, is that seems all gtk3 applications doesn't get a gtk3 theme, but maybe is just my installation. > Regards, > Julien Lavergne > |
From: Julien L. <gi...@ub...> - 2011-08-16 16:25:50
|
Le Tuesday 16 August 2011 à 11:02 +0200, Andrea Florio a écrit : > Seriously? why don't contribute the the entire project? Because we have others priorities. Firstly, finishing transition that are in progress and unfinished (ex: gpicview). It's just a note, we have nobody planning to work on this. So, if someone want to try, he is free to go. Just don't wait for a short term solution from us. > i guess that > sentences like this one are making you loose some users.. that's a > piece of an email i received recently from a former lubuntu user: > > "I got fed up with that Ubuntu way of treading on everything and > looking only to its own interests that the Lubuntu developer started > to show after his distribution received support from Canonical" Just to make it clear for everyone. All people working directly on Lubuntu are doing it for free, during their free time. Having support from Canonical doesn't mean we have money or ressources, except building ISO for Ubuntu build system. We working on some parts because we prefer to work on them, that's it. > > and also > > "I was referring to the way Julien Lavergne started uploading broken > code to the git repo and then just ignored the fixes." Yes, I broke some trunk repo sometimes, and I'm sorry about it. Probably, it was not the good way to do thing. But when you are waiting 6 months or more for review of patches from Lubuntu, posting them on the bugtracker, committed them to a separate branch, and nobody care about them ... so yes, committed them to trunk was the only way to have feedbacks. > I believed we were working on a common project that is LXDE, and them, > just customizing it to make it fit our distro specific needs.. but any > way, that's not the place for such an argument. Agree, that's why I try to commit every improvement / fixes done in Lubuntu to LXDE directly. I don't want to maintain patches in Lubuntu when it's not strictly necessary. > > Andrea, do you try to use GTK3 components on openSUSE ? For me, I > had some improvements on CPU usage using lxtask GTK3, vs the GTK2 > version. I wonder if you saw similar behavior on openSUSE ? > > > > well, i actually tested it to check if there was any crash or issues, > but i didn't pay much attention on that. I can try to give it a deeper > look next time. What i actually saw, is that seems all gtk3 > applications doesn't get a gtk3 theme, but maybe is just my > installation. Ok thanks, don't hesitate to share good (or bad) surprises. Regards, Julien Lavergne |
From: Martin B. / b. <br...@bs...> - 2011-08-16 09:21:45
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2011-08-15 15:50, Julien Lavergne wrote: > I made some local changes on gpicview, it should build with GTK3, but it's still not working (segfault on loading image). I'll commit it to trunk when I'll be back home. I hope I misread you now but if not I want to make it clear. Do /NOT/ commit things that are not complete/do not work in the master branch. Not even if it require a --enable-gtk-3 or whatever for configure. We use git and have cheap branches, there are no reason at all to not use them. When done hacking and it works as intended use the rebase approach and get it into master. If someone need assistance with working with please ask and I (or whoever) will help you to master the repo. - -- brother http://sis.bthstudent.se -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJOSjabAAoJEJbdSEaj0jV7uC8H/2sryHpbQR6sI7TRbS2hDJZh 95YZ56eeKTcucWjK1uxRrQ694Z83THC1BUoCiF1s3P3hXYd5Hqq1ouZ1LFxtqH8k KRWSWvGKU0YDkiQH0Tz3D9A2CYoUbbGjAekk7V9Wk5/6nnebVsPY3UVwqlAgDWCT pxUTIyQ/hZRcYOwF0wwRI+5nqzbQT/R3oNOHtr2Tlk5gvvSWbH5Ys3CDh23seKmv gy1FVhhBcbT50N+996MVJLasvnncRIknVQyfUgb4IroijKtZIJWta6ohMP5gOkTf G/lL4FDg8QMyrOLHlIYkRPnH3QiM89J8fSbD8yKDfydZ8CYVwXRd7kjOIfr0KNw= =605X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: Andrea F. <an...@op...> - 2011-08-16 09:25:39
|
2011/8/16 Martin Bagge / brother <br...@bs...>: > On 2011-08-15 15:50, Julien Lavergne wrote: >> I made some local changes on gpicview, it should build with GTK3, but it's still not working (segfault on loading image). I'll commit it to trunk when I'll be back home. > > I hope I misread you now but if not I want to make it clear. > > Do /NOT/ commit things that are not complete/do not work in the master > branch. Not even if it require a --enable-gtk-3 or whatever for configure. I agree, but at today, gpicview fail to build with "--enable-gtk3", so if those changes solve the build failure, than i believe is mostly welcome. Regards Andrea |
From: Stephan S. <gma...@sp...> - 2011-08-16 09:45:40
|
So you're saying you'd rather people not help at all then? I use LXDE on Gentoo and I've been using Audacious since before I even knew LXDE existed. If I have some free time, I have been known to patch programs I use... but only programs I actually use and, regardless of frontend choice, XMMS2 doesn't play the chiptune formats I like. Giving "all or nothing" ultimatums tends to drive people away even IF they're in a situation (eg. paid to work on things) where it would be reasonable for them to work on everything. Heck, if that were the official stance of the LXDE project, I'd probably stop using it in favour of some home-grown mix of WMs, session managers, and the like. I take my principles very seriously even when I'm just a user. On 16/08/11 05:02 AM, Andrea Florio wrote: > 2011/8/15 Julien Lavergne<gi...@ub...>: >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:20:30 +0200 >> Andrea Florio<an...@op...> wrote: > [...] >> For lxmusic, somebody needs to do the work, as Lubuntu doesn't use lxmucic, we don't plan to work on it. >> > > Seriously? why don't contribute the the entire project? i guess that > sentences like this one are making you loose some users.. that's a > piece of an email i received recently from a former lubuntu user: > > "I got fed up with that Ubuntu way of treading on everything and > looking only to its own interests that the Lubuntu developer started > to show after his distribution received support from Canonical" > > and also > > [...] |
From: Andrea F. <an...@op...> - 2011-08-16 09:50:55
|
no, not at all, what i meant is that i don't like the fact that "i don't work on it because i don't use it in my distro", i believe here we are talking at the "upstream level". i never spoke of the "all or nothing" as you said. Also, i want to point out again, this is not the proper place to discuss it, if we want to continue we should open a new discussion topic and not flame this "gtk2 --> gtk3 " one Andrea 2011/8/16 Stephan Sokolow <gma...@sp...>: > So you're saying you'd rather people not help at all then? > > I use LXDE on Gentoo and I've been using Audacious since before I even > knew LXDE existed. > > If I have some free time, I have been known to patch programs I use... > but only programs I actually use and, regardless of frontend choice, > XMMS2 doesn't play the chiptune formats I like. > > Giving "all or nothing" ultimatums tends to drive people away even IF > they're in a situation (eg. paid to work on things) where it would be > reasonable for them to work on everything. > > Heck, if that were the official stance of the LXDE project, I'd probably > stop using it in favour of some home-grown mix of WMs, session managers, > and the like. I take my principles very seriously even when I'm just a user. > > On 16/08/11 05:02 AM, Andrea Florio wrote: >> 2011/8/15 Julien Lavergne<gi...@ub...>: >>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:20:30 +0200 >>> Andrea Florio<an...@op...> wrote: >> [...] >>> For lxmusic, somebody needs to do the work, as Lubuntu doesn't use lxmucic, we don't plan to work on it. >>> >> >> Seriously? why don't contribute the the entire project? i guess that >> sentences like this one are making you loose some users.. that's a >> piece of an email i received recently from a former lubuntu user: >> >> "I got fed up with that Ubuntu way of treading on everything and >> looking only to its own interests that the Lubuntu developer started >> to show after his distribution received support from Canonical" >> >> and also >> >> [...] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > uberSVN's rich system and user administration capabilities and model > configuration take the hassle out of deploying and managing Subversion and > the tools developers use with it. Learn more about uberSVN and get a free > download at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/wandisco-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Lxde-list mailing list > Lxd...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lxde-list > |
From: Andrea F. <an...@op...> - 2011-08-16 21:49:00
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 lxtask gtk2 rss 18.1 dim.vm 265,0 mb lxtask gtk3 rss 15,3 dim.vm 198.5 mb those are the only differences i noted for the 2 version of the same program (lxtask) running on the same machine. Regards Andrea - -- - ------------------------------------------ Andrea Florio QSI International School of Brindisi Sys Admin CISCO CCNA Certified openSUSE-Education Administrator openSUSE-LXDE Administrator openSUSE Official Member (anubisg1) Email: an...@op... Packman Packaging Team Email: an...@li... Cell: +39-328-7365667 - ------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk5K5ggACgkQyCZT87TFPuhJzgCgqJ2CV/2/6T4FByZC45FwSccu 1XQAoMDqG/yjD5KszyGcRM2YHxheF5D+ =RIFj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: Yao W. (魏. <mw...@lx...> - 2011-08-18 13:44:52
|
Current lxterminal is not GTK+3 compatible as what I tested. Though it is compilable, it can't be configured and window size is not handled correctly. 2011 8 17 06:09 於 "Andrea Florio" <an...@op...> 寫道: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > lxtask gtk2 > rss 18.1 dim.vm 265,0 mb > > lxtask gtk3 > rss 15,3 dim.vm 198.5 mb > > those are the only differences i noted for the 2 version of the same > program (lxtask) running on the same machine. > > Regards > Andrea > > - -- > - ------------------------------------------ > Andrea Florio > QSI International School of Brindisi Sys Admin > CISCO CCNA Certified > openSUSE-Education Administrator > openSUSE-LXDE Administrator > openSUSE Official Member (anubisg1) > Email: an...@op... > Packman Packaging Team > Email: an...@li... > Cell: +39-328-7365667 > - ------------------------------------------ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iEYEARECAAYFAk5K5ggACgkQyCZT87TFPuhJzgCgqJ2CV/2/6T4FByZC45FwSccu > 1XQAoMDqG/yjD5KszyGcRM2YHxheF5D+ > =RIFj > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop > Post to : lub...@li... > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp |